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I have never understood this... (Fun discussion)



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vaderskywalker

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Why did Square or Nomura (I have no idea whose idea it was) feel the need to change the graphics? Don't get me wrong, I like the new graphics, but there was nothing wrong with the old graphics either, and before KH3 was announced, I thought it would use the graphics from the old games, it felt very consistent, up until KH3 or 0.2, what are your thoughts?
 

BufferAqua

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The old graphics were outdated. They were PS2-era graphics. It made sense for DDD back in 2012 because it was a 3DS game. But you can't expect a PS4 game to use PS2-era graphics when they have the budget for something better.
 
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Oracle Spockanort

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Why did Square or Nomura (I have no idea whose idea it was) feel the need to change the graphics? Don't get me wrong, I like the new graphics, but there was nothing wrong with the old graphics either, and before KH3 was announced, I thought it would use the graphics from the old games, it felt very consistent, up until KH3 or 0.2, what are your thoughts?
They wanted to modernize the franchise. Personally wish they had gone with a World of Final Fantasy look over what they gave us in KH3 but it’s fine. (Also they should have used some of the middleware tools utilized in that game as well but hey I’m not a developer so 🤷🏽‍♀️ )
 

vaderskywalker

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The old graphics were outdated. They were PS2-era graphics. It made sense for DDD back in 2012 because it was a 3DS game. But you can't expect a PS4 game to use PS2-era graphics when they have the budget for something better.
Fair enough, it's just, I was so used to the old graphics, and I wanted them to keep using them, mostly because the old graphics worked better with the old 2d movies, and Hercules looks very weird with the new style, at least to me, but I see your point, and at least Sora, Donald, and Goofy, when they go back to the POTC world, they don't stick out like sore thumbs anymore.
 
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Chie

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The old graphics were not "outdated", all art styles are valid choices to use in making a game and none are "better" than eachother. Kingdom Hearts is certainly not a work focused on using state of the art technology.

However, gamers certainly would have still complained if they didn't change the art style.
 

BufferAqua

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The old graphics were not "outdated", all art styles are valid choices to use in making a game and none are "better" than eachother.
I never said the style was outdated, though? I just meant the graphics themselves. They were obviously PS2-era graphics and it makes sense to modernize that for a PS4 game. I never meant to use that term in a derogatory way.

I'm not even a graphics whore anyway. I don't really care if they changed it or not. But it's pretty obvious the original graphics were made during the PS2 era and modernizing is expected. I agree with Ethy that WOFF's style replicated the old graphics way better.
 
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Pandymint

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For thousands of years I have laid dormant. Who has disturbed my slum-oh, it's this.


Ya'll realize Square had been using the same engine until 0.2 right. It was time to update the engine. Can't speak for why this is the art style they went with, but I never cared one way or the other. I like it well enough and think it looks good. Well, once they ironed it out after 0.2 anyway. Good ol' Kairi's yaoi hands.
 

BufferAqua

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For thousands of years I have laid dormant. Who has disturbed my slum-oh, it's this.


Ya'll realize Square had been using the same engine until 0.2 right. It was time to update the engine. Can't speak for why this is the art style they went with, but I never cared one way or the other. I like it well enough and think it looks good. Well, once they ironed it out after 0.2 anyway. Good ol' Kairi's yaoi hands.
This is pretty much what I meant. They've been using the same engine since 2002, so it made sense to update it for PS4.
 

Chie

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I never said the style was outdated, though? I just meant the graphics themselves. They were obviously PS2-era graphics and it makes sense to modernize that for a PS4 game.
This seems like the same thing to me, though. If we're separating style from graphics, the other thing leftover is just, like, the display resolution itself.

I don't think there's any quantifiable reason why a PS4 game can't look like a PS2 game if it wants to. Of course societal factors emphasize a vague idea of "modern standards" without proving their necessity.
 

BufferAqua

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This seems like the same thing to me, though. If we're separating style from graphics, the other thing leftover is just, like, the display resolution itself.

I don't think there's any quantifiable reason why a PS4 game can't look like a PS2 game if it wants to. Of course societal factors emphasize a vague idea of "modern standards" without proving their necessity.
I don't think it's unusual to expect a franchise that has been using the same engine since the early 2000s to eventually update and change it. It's not an attack on the old art style to expect that.
Fair enough, it's just, I was so used to the old graphics, and I wanted them to keep using them, mostly because the old graphics worked better with the old 2d movies, and Hercules looks very weird with the new style, at least to me, but I see your point, and at least Sora, Donald, and Goofy, when they go back to the POTC world, they don't stick out like sore thumbs anymore.
I do get what you're saying tho. KH was first made at the end of the Renaissance, so the style makes sense during that era for the movies at the time. For the new graphic, though, I think it definitely works with stuff like Tangled and Frozen better.
 
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Chie

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It's expected, but I don't think any of the old stuff is actually "outdated" in any way. That's all.
 

Pandymint

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I don't think there's any quantifiable reason why a PS4 game can't look like a PS2 game if it wants to. Of course societal factors emphasize a vague idea of "modern standards" without proving their necessity.

Of course they could have made it look exactly the same, 1:1 recreation. But then... What's the point? Why make the game on PS4? Or anything more advanced than the PS2, anyway. Why not take advantage of the better technology to update it so it looks, for lack of a better term, more modern?


It's like the people who cry out for, say, FF7R to be a 1:1 perfect remake of the original. Why? What's the point of even doing it then?


It's fine to prefer the art style of the older games, its aged gracefully and in my opinion has a timeless look. But to expect them to just do the same thing over and over every time.... Well, ask Call of Duty how that's worked out for them.


It's expected, but I don't think any of the old stuff is actually "outdated" in any way. That's all.

Fishface Sora with his flat textures on a blank face would like to have a word with you.
 

Chie

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Of course they could have made it look exactly the same, 1:1 recreation. But then... What's the point? Why make the game on PS4? Or anything more advanced than the PS2, anyway.
Because they don't let you publish PS2 games anymore, or DS, PSP, etc. Making the game on the consoles that are available isn't so much a choice as it is a factor of the times. It would've been on PS3 if it came out much earlier. It would've been on PS5 if development was pushed back further. It is what it is.

Fishface Sora with his flat textures on a blank face would like to have a word with you.
Yeah, I don't really have a problem with this. Am I supposed to? I get why they would try to avoid it if possible, but I don't think no game should ever use that corner-cutting technique because it's "outdated" either.
 

BufferAqua

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I get why they would try to avoid it if possible, but I don't think no game should ever use that corner-cutting technique because it's "outdated" either.
Not to argue, but I really don't understand why referring to the old graphics as outdated is bad?
 

Pandymint

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Haven't seen a conversation go in a circle this fast since the last time I watched a Nascar race.


I don't think they avoid it because its 'outdated', I think they avoid it because they don't need to resort to it. Technology and game engines are better, so they take advantage of it as they see fit.
 

Chie

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Not to argue, but I really don't understand why referring to the old graphics as outdated is bad?
I just don't know what's outdated about them. PS2 graphics are certainly influenced by the time they were made in, and the limitations available, but this is true for all art, including modern graphics.

Certainly outside of mainstream games you can see games with graphics that imitate all eras. You could view those as "retro throwbacks" as most people do, but I would say you can also choose based on which style suits your game best. Whatever choice you make, it's not "outdated", it's just a choice.

Certainly the graphical options available to us increase with time and technology, but the old options don't become outmoded. They remain as equally valid options.

Of course, I understand that Square Enix executives don't think this way, or any other megacorp execs.
 

BufferAqua

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The original graphics engine was implemented in 2002. KH3 came out in 2019, where graphics have developed vastly and improved. Therefore, the original graphics are outdated by comparison.

Though honestly this is just gonna turn into a semantics battle. So I'll just say different strokes for different folks. No biggie.
 
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Chie

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KH3 came out in 2019, where graphics have developed vastly and improved.
See, this is my point of confusion. How have graphics "improved"? What makes the newer ones "better"? That's why I said the older ones are equally valid. I don't think one is better than the other, just different. "More technologically advanced", I can understand.

And yeah it totally is a semantics convo, I think some people were thinking I was saying some other things, but I'm only saying exactly what I'm saying. Which some might find trivial indeed!
 

BufferAqua

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See, this is my point of confusion. How have graphics "improved"? What makes the newer ones "better"? That's why I said the older ones are equally valid. I don't think one is better than the other, just different. "More technologically advanced", I can understand.
More technologically advanced is what I mean.
 
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