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How come it's called Birth by Sleep?



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Goldpanner

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Again interpretation, if death isn't literal, there is no use using it.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Nomura has said that 'leaving the world', i.e. essentially dying (and remember that in Japanese the words for world, realm and World as they are translated in KH are all the same word) is known as 'sleep' in Kingdom Hearts universe.

So any imagery revolving around sleep, being born, reborn etc is obviously connected to the cycle of life, which involves moving between realms.

And yes, it is a fact that the cycle of life involves moving between realms in KH.

All hearts are born from KH, ASoD says so in KH1. KH is inside the RoD. That means every heart must pass from KH through the RoD and into the RoL to be born. And if 'death' is simply 'sleep' in the KH universe, then it makes sense that when they die (as in, their soul-battery runs out and they shuffle off the moral coil), they would go back there to sleep. That's what the Org was taking advantage of with their fake KH, after all; intercepting the hearts and forcing them to gather in their own KH instead. Because in KH, nothing simply disappears. Things you think disappear from (leave the world, essentially die in) your realm simply go to another. The darkness in someone's heart eats them alive and they disappear from the RoL. But the heart appears in the RoD, and the body appears in the RoI.

That's why it makes sense for Riku, trapped in the RoD without a body, had to have been 'reborn' to move to the RoI (where CO was).
 
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Oracle Spockanort

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what? that very last part i don't even remember that. if you're basing this off theories, youmight as well stop.

It isn't theory. It is fact in KH. Hearts are born in KH, travel to the RoL The body dies, the heart travels back to KH to be purified. What is theory in that?

Again interpretation, if death isn't literal, there is no use using it. i know what riku's story was i played re:COM, but you treating it like fact. and it isn't. i'm 120% sure.

Death isn't literal in KH because the heart does not "die". The body perishes, it dies, but the heart lives and returns to Kingdom Hearts.
 

Lavender13

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I have no idea what you are trying to say. Nomura has said that 'leaving the world', i.e. essentially dying (and remember that in Japanese the words for world, realm and World as they are translated in KH are all the same word) is known as 'sleep' in Kingdom Hearts universe.
when it comes to KH there is more than one world or realm.

So any imagery revolving around sleep, being born, reborn etc is obviously connected to the cycle of life, which involves moving between realms.
he never said reborn, he said awoken.

And yes, it is a fact that the cycle of life involves moving between realms in KH.
only due to heartless and nobody, but naturally, it was never explained.

All hearts are born from KH, ASoD says so in KH1. KH is inside the RoD.
didn't he say it was darkness?
  • "All worlds begin in darkness and all so end. The heart is no different. Darkness sprouts within it. It grows, consumes it. Such is its nature."
  • "In the end, every heart returns to the darkness whence it came. You see, darkness is the heart's true essence."
^^^^yep darkness. not KH

That means every heart must pass from KH through the RoD and into the RoL to be born. And if 'death' is simply 'sleep' in the KH universe, then it makes sense that when they die (as in, their soul-battery runs out and they shuffle off the moral coil), they would go back there to sleep. That's what the Org was taking advantage of with their fake KH, after all; intercepting the hearts and forcing them to gather in their own KH instead. Because in KH, nothing simply disappears. Things you think disappear from (leave the world, essentially die in) your realm simply go to another. The darkness in someone's heart eats them alive and they disappear from the RoL. But the heart appears in the RoD, and the body appears in the RoI.
you're assuming ASOD everything he said was right, which he is hardly credible considering he never actually gave life changing knowledge. again, interpretation....

That's why it makes sense for Riku, trapped in the RoD without a body, had to have been 'reborn' to move to the RoI (where CO was).
this one is the most vague i've seen in kh about a title. reverse/rebirth could be talking most likely about the sctual story, rather than the beginning.
 

Oracle Spockanort

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he never said reborn, he said awoken.

And what are you when you wake up but a person different from yesterday? But I'm not going to bring philosophy into this.

only due to heartless and nobody, but naturally, it was never explained.

Yes it was. The heart moves between realms all of the time. It moves from KH to the RoD to the RoL then back. Why do you think there are Heartless in the RoD? Hearts get trapped in that Darkness before arriving to KH.

didn't he say it was darkness?
^^^^yep darkness. not KH

The Realm of Darkness is where Kingdom Hearts lies. The heart has to travel through the RoD to reach KH, which it's final destination is.

you're assuming ASOD everything he said was right, which he is hardly credible considering he never actually gave life changing knowledge. again, interpretation....

He was very much correct. KH lies in the RoD. Fact. (since i've said it three times in different ways)
 

Lavender13

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And what are you when you wake up but a person different from yesterday? But I'm not going to bring philosophy into this.
you're saying that now?



Yes it was. The heart moves between realms all of the time. It moves from KH to the RoD to the RoL then back. Beings move between realms, when granted the power.
ugh...again, not much revealed on that.



The Realm of Darkness is where Kingdom Hearts lies. The heart has to travel through the RoD to reach KH, which it's final destination is.
that doesn't prove anything.



He was very much correct. KH lies in the RoD. Fact.
like i said, not enough life changing knowledge.
 

Oracle Spockanort

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you're saying that now?

Philosophy =/= religion and the mindset of cultures

ugh...again, not much revealed on that.

How can you say that? Where would have Xemnas got the idea to create an artificial KH to collect hearts if the true Kingdom Hearts didn't do the very same thing? We know it is the Heart of All Worlds, the place hearts are born, and the place hearts return to. MX and all forms of himself say the heart is born in darkness and returns to it because that is the realm Kingdom Hearts lies inside of. If Kingdom Hearts existed in the RoL, he'd have said "All hearts are born in light, and all so end in light."

like i said, not enough life changing knowledge.

What do you classify as life changing in Kingdom Hearts then?
 

Goldpanner

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when it comes to KH there is more than one world or realm.

Yeah, but worlds are for example Disney worlds and Destiny Islands, and Realms are the Realm of Darkness, the Realm of Light, the Realm of Inbetween... So they are different concepts. Except in Japanese, they use the same word.

he never said reborn, he said awoken

In that interview, maybe, but I was talking about the entire series. Any symbolism about sleep/waking, death/birth could be part of the discourse.

only due to heartless and nobody, but naturally, it was never explained.

didn't he say it was darkness?
^^^^yep darkness. not KH

He said all hearts are born in the darkness. From Kingdom Hearts.

Ansem: Behold the endless abyss! Within lies the heart of all worlds: Kingdom Hearts! Look as hard as you are able. You’ll not find even the smallest glimmer of light. From those dark depths are all hearts born. Even yours.

And remember, at that point in time, he thought Kingdom Hearts was darkness.

Kingdom Hearts! Fill me with the power of darkness... Supreme darkness...

Aaaand then he is proved wrong. Kingdom Hearts was light, it was simply locked in the darkness of 'endless abyss'. Which is also confirmed in Xehanort's reports and in Kairi's grandmother's story etc.

Sora: You’re wrong. I know now, without a doubt. Kingdom Hearts...is light!

And then he realises he should have brought shades.

you're assuming ASOD everything he said was right, which he is hardly credible considering he never actually gave life changing knowledge. again, interpretation....

You can sure believe so. But don't say he didn't know anything; he knew about the Princesses of Heart, how to make a keyblade out of them, how to travel through the world's hearts, and how to open Kingdom Hearts. And, I will be very, very surprised if it turns out to be wrong.

this one is the most vague i've seen in kh about a title. reverse/rebirth could be talking most likely about the sctual story, rather than the beginning.

you can sure believe so.
 

Lavender13

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you're not getting the facts and seeing them as it is, you're trying to find more. i'm not. i just see it and accept it, but i'm not going to look for meaning in it. nomura has also been the type to change his mind and made it safe by saying something that can mean something else.

and no, we don't know KH is the place where hearts are born, you actually never explained that. you all said it was in kh1, but i proved you wrong by saying it's darkness, and somehow thats the very thing that makes you right?

give me some evidence, you're just shouting things out without really helping yourself. even so, i'm done. this is all interpretation, for me, BBS doens't mean anything of what you guys said. basically the interview was about them coming back from to the world, and thats it. no death, no rebirth. just awakenings and sleep.

--edit--

i read you're page goldpanner, and you're still not giving enough proof. unless they outright say it, i won't believe it.

ansem SOD has been wrong, you said so yourself, so i can't trust what ansem SOD says for things like KH and darknes, because thats the very thing he was wrong about. as for knowing 7 princesses of heart, it seemed like melificent helped him along the way
 
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Goldpanner

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Okay, if you won't listen to game quotes, let's listen to logic.

If all hearts are born from darkness, then how were people born before darkness existed in the realm of light? Before the Keyblade War, Kindgom Hearts was the heart of one huge World, the Realm of Light. And in those times, there was no darkness. People were born pure. So how could hearts have been born from darkness?

It wasn't until the Keyblade War that darkness crept into people's hearts through jealousy and fighting. And then the entire World was devoured by darkness and Kingdom Hearts was swallowed deep into the Realm of Darkness.

The little separated fragments left of the World are the Disney worlds and the like, and nowdays, every person has darkness in their heart (according to Leon, Yen Sid etc) except for the Seven Princesses.

So what's the difference? Why are people born with darkness already in their hearts now, but they weren't before Kingdom Hearts was locked in the Realm of Darkness?

Must be because... the hearts come out of Kindgom Hearts.
 

Oracle Spockanort

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you're not getting the facts and seeing them as it is, you're trying to find more. i'm not. i just see it and accept it, but i'm not going to look for meaning in it. nomura has also been the type to change his mind and made it safe by saying something that can mean something else.

and no, we don't know KH is the place where hearts are born, you actually never explained that. you all said it was in kh1, but i proved you wrong by saying it's darkness, and somehow thats the very thing that makes you right?

give me some evidence, you're just shouting things out without really helping yourself. even so, i'm done. this is all interpretation, for me, BBS doens't mean anything of what you guys said. basically the interview was about them coming back from to the world, and thats it. no death, no rebirth. just awakenings and sleep.

Then why are you playing the game? Why did you spend this time to argue over something you are not planning to look for the meaning in?

Awakening is a birth and sleep is death. Why is that so hard to accept? Rebirth is EVERYWHERE in the series, and especially in this game. But I'll leave you with your understanding of the games, because clearly you don't want to accept what is right in our faces.
 

Lavender13

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Okay, if you won't listen to game quotes, let's listen to logic.
because you're quotes aren't helping.

If all hearts are born from darkness, then how were people born before darkness existed in the realm of light? Before the Keyblade War, Kindgom Hearts was the heart of one huge World, the Realm of Light. And in those times, there was no darkness. People were born pure. So how could hearts have been born from darkness?

It wasn't until the Keyblade War that darkness crept into people's hearts through jealousy and fighting. And then the entire World was devoured by darkness and Kingdom Hearts was swallowed deep into the Realm of Darkness.

The little separated fragments left of the World are the Disney worlds and the like, and nowdays, every person has darkness in their heart (according to Leon, Yen Sid etc) except for the Seven Princesses.

So what's the difference? Why are people born with darkness already in their hearts now, but they weren't before Kingdom Hearts was locked in the Realm of Darkness?

Must be because... the hearts come out of Kindgom Hearts.
how did you get that conclusion? it could be taken as original sin, once darkness is in you, it can't be taken off and be given to the next generation. Also, if that were true, then there shouldn't be a problem for people having pure light. but if we see Ventus, he clearly had a problem with that.


Anyways....what i'm trying to say is BBS title meaning, not as great you hoped.
 

Goldpanner

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because you're quotes aren't helping.

because you either can't read or you can't put two and two together.

how did you get that conclusion? it could be taken as original sin, once darkness is in you, it can't be taken off and be given to the next generation. Also, if that were true, then there shouldn't be a problem for people having pure light. but if we see Ventus, he clearly had a problem with that.

So how were people born before the Keyblade War, if all hearts are born from darkness?

And people don't have a problem having whole hearts of pure light, like Kairi's. Ven had a problem because his heart was ripped in two.

I think you've obviously missed a lot of important points in the Kingdom Hearts series and haven't read very many interviews, so trying to teach you is pointless.
 

Oracle Spockanort

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how did you get that conclusion? it could be taken as original sin, once darkness is in you, it can't be taken off and be given to the next generation. Also, if that were true, then there shouldn't be a problem for people having pure light. but if we see Ventus, he clearly had a problem with that.


Anyways....what i'm trying to say is BBS title meaning, not as great you hoped.

We had FFX for all of sin. This game is not about sin. You can grab a basis from the legend of people fighting over the light and creating darkness, but this game is nowhere near the idea of sin in Christianity and Judaism. You're forcing Western beliefs onto something that isn't Western.

The title, explains the entire concept of Kingdom Hearts as the Heart of All Worlds. How is this not "great"?
 

Lavender13

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because you either can't read or you can't put two and two together.
lol that's because i wont unless it's put together for me. that was the point i was trying to make.



So how were people born before the Keyblade War, if all hearts are born from darkness?[/quotes]
you realize that was more symbolic, he didn't mean if you are literally born from the realm of darkness and even then, if they are, the realm of light has darkness in it too.

And people don't have a problem having whole hearts of pure light, like Kairi's. Ven had a problem because his heart was ripped in two.
i thought so too...but everyone else on heartstation said it was due to pure light.

I think you've obviously missed a lot of important points in the Kingdom Hearts series and haven't read very many interviews, so trying to teach you is pointless.
no i have...just that i wont piece to and to together unless i make a theory. for now it's a theory. and like i've said before, BBS meaning of the titles, simple. everything nomura already said, any more expansion is a theory.
 
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