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How come it's called Birth by Sleep?



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Oracle Spockanort

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a common theory from YOU. i dont see anyone else saying it. ALso, i said "as if it were fact". let's stop the smart alec talk, we both know what i meant.

How long have you been here? Since this month? Have you seen how many theories come through this place? Or even half of the discussions people have had on this very topic?
 

Lavender13

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i don't see a thread here about it. and considering there is no concept in death quote, it seems stupid to even make a theory about death.
true, i have seen pointless discussions about death, but none regarding your theory....and again, i suggest you word you're comments a little better.

BBS is named because of everything that's confirmed, anything else not confirmed related to the name is a theory, and rather should be left for another thread.
 

Goldpanner

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it wasn't a major theme, but regardless it was one in the secret ending. still, i remember nomura trying to find an excuse to add in BB in there.

Yep, that's right! It was Bulletin Board System, BbS XD

He also wanted to use 'by' in the title because it was rare, apparently.

a common theory from YOU. i dont see anyone else saying it. ALso, i said "as if it were fact". let's stop the smart alec talk, we both know what i meant.

I thought it was common knowledge >__>;

Nomura says there is no 'death' in Kingdom Hearts. He says that instead, the image is of sleeping inside a heart. And as ASoD said, 'all hearts are born from those dark depths. Even yours.' i.e. all hearts are born in Kindgom Hearts, in the RoD. So then, 'death' is returning to sleep in Kingdom Hearts, or any heart eg. those who sleep inside Sora's. Something like that. That's some pretty heavy life-recycling themes there. I can't remember, we talked about this a long time ago...

Birth by Sleep seems to mean the same thing as a second chance, the way AtW said it. And it seems that to be 'born' is to emerge into a different realm, such as coming back to the RoL after having lost your heart, as in Riku's Rebirth/Reverse.

Go look through Grass' posts, or ask him about it. Iirc he had a pretty good handle on the theory and it made so much sense to me.
 

Oracle Spockanort

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i don't see a thread here about it. and considering there is no concept in death quote, it seems stupid to even make a theory about death.
true, i have seen pointless discussions about death, but none regarding your theory....and again, i suggest you word you're comments a little better.

BBS is named because of everything that's confirmed, anything else not confirmed related to the name is a theory, and rather should be left for another thread.

Have you seen the tons of "What does birth by sleep" mean threads sitting in the pages of FoKH? Death has been mentioned before and in the way I am referencing it.

And how should I word my comments? I think I'm typing in pretty clear English. Sentence structure looks good...and my grammar is on spot.
 

Lavender13

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don't remember nomura saying that image is of a sleeping heart. can i have a link or the name of the interview??

the second part about death being sleep, also made less sense.

but i do agree, birth by sleep is a second chance, to be brought back from there sleep. basically what the title is. but i don't think it's a literal death or reincarnation.
 

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BBS is named because of everything that's confirmed, anything else not confirmed related to the name is a theory, and rather should be left for another thread.

What do you count as confirmed, then? AtW using the phrase in context to mean being saved, reborn into the RoL and given a second chance?

And the whole sleep/death comparison in KH comes from Nomura himself, you know.
 

Lavender13

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Have you seen the tons of "What does birth by sleep" mean threads sitting in the pages of FoKH? Death has been mentioned before and in the way I am referencing it.

And how should I word my comments? I think I'm typing in pretty clear English. Sentence structure looks good...and my grammar is on spot.
it's not grammar, it's the way you say things, you make them sound like their fact. theres that smart alec talk, either that or another misunderstanding.

Also, i checked future of kingdom hearts (assuming there isn't another section with the same abreviation) and checked the last 5. it's all about kh3d.
 

Goldpanner

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why did you have to quote that one instead of the other one?

I was in the middle of writing that reply when you posted again, of course it hadn't appeared for me yet...

don't remember nomura saying that image is of a sleeping heart. can i have a link or the name of the interview??

Nomura: Those calling ‘Sora’ in that scene are all people who have already left this world. But, there is no concept of death in the world of KH, and so, the image is of sleeping in Sora’s heart for example. If they could be woken up, they should be able to be brought back into this world, and so that’s what ‘born from sleep’ means. Ansem the Wise was speaking of this possibility. Aqua isn’t in the world of light either, so perhaps she too will come born from sleep.

Are you new to the forums? :3 there are so many awesome theories to read up on, then. I suggest starting here maybe: http://forums.khinsider.com/search.php?searchid=141570

And then there's my baby theory that deals with some of this stuff: http://forums.khinsider.com/spoilers/149811-kh3-kh-universe-mythology-general.html

but i do agree, birth by sleep is a second chance, to be brought back from there sleep. basically what the title is. but i don't think it's a literal death or reincarnation.

Of course it's not a literal death, because there is no literal death in the KH series. Death = 'sleep'

goldpanner you couldn't have returned at a better time

♥ Sorry I'm not at top debating form D;
 

Oracle Spockanort

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it's not grammar, it's the way you say things, you make them sound like their fact. theres that smart alec talk, either that or another misunderstanding.

How can you derive "smart alec" out of online text? I could be thinking what I type in the calmest and sweetest way. It is how you interpret that text that changes everything.

Shifting back to the topic:

Sorry to bring this up, but in the Bleach forum when you were debating with Smile on the Fullbring, you didn't seem to grasp on Eastern concepts. If you understood that, you'd understand where I'm getting (and others) are getting the "birth from death" thing from and why it is a theory that is practically common fact in the game.

If you were to discuss this with a Japanese fan, there would be no doubt this is what Nomura is trying to convey. It practically leaks from the dialogue in Japanese. In English, not so much but it is still there.

♥ Sorry I'm not at top debating form D;

You don't need to be because you have already provided helpful info. :D <3
 

Lavender13

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Shifting back to the topic:

Sorry to bring this up, but in the Bleach forum when you were debating with Smile on the Fullbring, you didn't seem to grasp on Eastern concepts. If you understood that, you'd understand where I'm getting (and others) are getting the "birth from death" thing from and why it is a theory that is practically common fact in the game.

If you were to discuss this with a Japanese fan, there would be no doubt this is what Nomura is trying to convey. It practically leaks from the dialogue in Japanese. In English, not so much but it is still there.
bringing that topic up now? that is seriously low. even if you're intentions are good.

And trust me, it's not that i couldn't grasp the eastern concepts. problem is none of this is confirmed. NOmura trying to say, or nomura saying it. if he's trying to say something, than it's all left ot interpretation whether he was trying to say or it really was that vague. nomura also realizes westerns have a different view, and he accepts it. Nomura made it so that it can be viewed differently. and the word death has not been touched in any interview i have seen.

Of course it's not a literal death, because there is no literal death in the KH series. Death = 'sleep'
Do you realize how big of a misunderstanding both of you caused....nomura never compared sleep to death anyway. he only used it as an example for those who aren't in this world anymore.
 

Goldpanner

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nomura also realizes westerns have a different view, and he accepts it.

Yes, except when he's doing an inerview in Japanese with a Japanese person for Japanese fans who will read a book in Japanese that is not planned to be localised anywhere else in the world... you can safely assume that the underlying implicatures are based on Japanese culture.

and the word death has not been touched in any interview i have seen.

...I just showed it to you... It's the BbS Ultimania, if you don't trust me. Even though you should, because I'm the one who translated that interview and I have it here in a word document...

You don't need to be because you have already provided helpful info. :D <3

Aww <3 good luck with the rest XD
 

Oracle Spockanort

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bringing that topic up now? that is seriously low. even if you're intentions are good.

And trust me, it's not that i couldn't grasp the eastern concepts. problem is none of this is confirmed. NOmura trying to say, or nomura saying it. if he's trying to say something, than it's all left ot interpretation whether he was trying to say or it really was that vague. nomura also realizes westerns have a different view, and he accepts it. Nomura made it so that it can be viewed differently. and the word death has not been touched in any interview i have seen.

I don't see how that is low, but at least you know why I'm using it.

He doesn't need to use the word when to a populace it is common knowledge.

Nomura accepts it and leaves it for our interpretation, but he definitely doesn't make it so we can interpret it differently. He has a clear point he is trying to have us understand.
 

Lavender13

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I don't see how that is low, but at least you know why I'm using it.
bringing another topic about a heated discussion is usually used to discredit the person.

He doesn't need to use the word when to a populace it is common knowledge.
you're assuming it is.

Nomura accepts it and leaves it for our interpretation, but he definitely doesn't make it so we can interpret it differently. He has a clear point he is trying to have us understand.
dependson the views. he gave us an explanation that can be viewed differently.
 

Goldpanner

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depends on the views. he gave us an explanation that can be viewed differently.

As someone who has studied pragmatics, I can tell you that everything ever said can be viewed differently. It's what the speaker meant that you need to worry about. And when you look at the context, the audience, the time, the place, everything, you can usually judge what the speaker meant.

It's like, if I said, wow that's hot.

You could think I meant some sexy babe, or the weather of the Sahara, or seat belt buckles in summer.

But if you actually look at me, you'll see I am blowing on a cup of steaming coffee. So arguing that I could have meant all those other things is correct but redundant, once you take the context into consideration.
 

Lavender13

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What i'm saying is, he makes it clear enough to get to the same idea, but vague enough to be interpreted differently, such as death and all.

"i hate KH because of the characters" and "i hate kh because of the story", either one leads to hating kh. the same applies here. because words like revive, rebirth, and such aren't used here, but they can be interpreted that way.
 

Oracle Spockanort

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bringing another topic about a heated discussion is usually used to discredit the person.

Wasn't trying to do that. I guess it could be since I was pointing out a flaw of yours...

you're assuming it is.

No I'm not. The interviews were done in Japanese. The Japanese population is mostly Shinto or Buddhist in religious belief. The tiny percent of Christian Japanese have an understanding of Shinto and Buddhist religion. In both Shintoism and Buddhism, it is a known fact they believe in reincarnation.

When you grow up in a culture like that, obviously your mindset will be geared to these beliefs and media will be saturated with these concepts. As goldpanner pointed out in her translation, Sleep = Death. Kingdom Hearts is where all hearts go to be purified, and it is also where all hearts leave to enter the RoL.

dependson the views. he gave us an explanation that can be viewed differently.

Yes, but the overall point he is trying to give us is the same.
 

Goldpanner

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because words like revive, rebirth, and such aren't used here, but they can be interpreted that way.

They are used here, though.

--Ansem the Wise said to Aqua, ‘everything is born from sleep’, but, what does this mean?
Nomura: Those calling ‘Sora’ in that scene are all people who have already left this world. But, there is no concept of death in the world of KH, and so, the image is of sleeping in Sora’s heart for example. If they could be woken up, they should be able to be brought back into this world, and so that’s what ‘born from sleep’ means. Ansem the Wise was speaking of this possibility. Aqua isn’t in the world of light either, so perhaps she too will come born from sleep.
--And so, is there a possibility that the characters that appeared in that scene will be brought back in the future?
Nomura: Yeah. The data that Ansem hid inside Sora is a secret related to their resurrection. When Ansem became DiZ and worked from the shadows, he did research on the heart and emotion, but he hid the conclusion of his particular findings inside Sora. There were many who thought that what was hidden was KH Coded, but that’s not right. In the ending of KH Coded, Naminé words that DiZ did something to Sora are pointing to the data that Ansem hid. We are planning to make clear the nature of that data in a future title.

We've seen in the past what happens to people when they essentially die; they end up in another realm. Stolen hearts end up in the Realm of Darkness. Like Riku's. He had no body, and had to go through a 'rebirth' to get out. (Riku's story is called Rebirth/Reverse, btw).

Then, bodies are 'born' into the Realm of Inbetween, as Nobodies. Like Roxas, and Namine.
 

Lavender13

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sigh...thank god for multiquote

No I'm not. The interviews were done in Japanese. The Japanese population is mostly Shinto or Buddhist in religious belief. The tiny percent of Christian Japanese have an understanding of Shinto and Buddhist religion. In both Shintoism and Buddhism, it is a known fact they believe in reincarnation.

When you grow up in a culture like that, obviously your mindset will be geared to these beliefs and media will be saturated with these concepts. As goldpanner pointed out in her translation, Sleep = Death. Kingdom Hearts is where all hearts go to be purified, and it is also where all hearts leave to enter the RoL.
what? that very last part i don't even remember that. if you're basing this off theories, youmight as well stop.

We've seen in the past what happens to people when they essentially die; they end up in another realm. Stolen hearts end up in the Realm of Darkness. Like Riku's. He had no body, and had to go through a 'rebirth' to get out. (Riku's story is called Rebirth/Reverse, btw).

Then, bodies are 'born' into the Realm of Inbetween, as Nobodies. Like Roxas, and Namine.
Again interpretation, if death isn't literal, there is no use using it. i know what riku's story was i played re:COM, but you treating it like fact. and it isn't. i'm 120% sure.
 
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