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Heartbroken that I have to admit this but....



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After an entire year of playing KH3, and two weeks of playing the Re Mind DLC, I finally went back to KH2 for the first time and...

I couldn't believe how unbearably slow and outdated the combat felt.

Not being able to air step is one thing, but Sora just moves sooooo much slower in KH2 than in KH3. His attacks don't home in on enemies the same way, the game looks and feels so much smaller and cramped, and everything just feels choppy in comparison to how smooth KH3 feels.

I even went back to KH1 afterwards to see if it that game felt as slow, but it actually didn't. Maybe it's because I didn't expect it to, but man, KH2 felt like straight trash (which physically hurts me to type). Since I've always championed it as an amazing game combat wise, It's got me questioning everything i ever thought was good about any game lol.

Has anyone else felt the same way while going back to KH2 from Kh3?

Please let me know I'm not alone!!
 

Face My Fears

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After an entire year of playing KH3, and two weeks of playing the Re Mind DLC, I finally went back to KH2 for the first time and...

I couldn't believe how unbearably slow and outdated the combat felt.

Not being able to air step is one thing, but Sora just moves sooooo much slower in KH2 than in KH3. His attacks don't home in on enemies the same way, the game looks and feels so much smaller and cramped, and everything just feels choppy in comparison to how smooth KH3 feels.

I even went back to KH1 afterwards to see if it that game felt as slow, but it actually didn't. Maybe it's because I didn't expect it to, but man, KH2 felt like straight trash (which physically hurts me to type). Since I've always championed it as an amazing game combat wise, It's got me questioning everything i ever thought was good about any game lol.

Has anyone else felt the same way while going back to KH2 from Kh3?

Please let me know I'm not alone!!
I know the feeling. I mean I wasn't "heartbroken", but what happened with me was basically in the time leading up to ReMIND's release I went back to beat all the secret bosses I never got around to beating (mostly the data battles in KH2 and Lingering Will). I also went back and fought Xemnas in KH1. I really liked the KH1 combat and appreciated that it was slower, but more technical. KH2 on the other hand... well, I dunno if I just got better at the game than the last time I attempted the data battles, but it didn't feel particularly hard which was a let down. Everything was just Reflect/Final Form/Mash X -- I actually killed Lingering Will on my first few tries (even though I was terrified of the fight). I know I could have implemented stuff to limit my abilities or whatever, but I didn't need to do that in the Xemnas (or Sephiroth) fight in KH1 to get a challenge.

KH3 (before ReMIND) was also pretty much like KH2 where you could be immortal and get through the fights by just mashing X. ReMIND really did an outstanding job to reveal a fighting system that I didn't even dream could be in KH3 or the KH series period. It made me use aspects of the game that I normally never use -- synthesis for stat increasing items, the bistro for food -- it made me plan out which equipment I would use in the fight, it actually gave me the feeling (for the first time in a KH game) of an "actual" RPG. Normally in KH games I just equip the best stuff to Sora and go on my merry way and will win. ReMIND needed me to think about everything before entering the fight and the combat itself was just so good.
 

Elysium

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This is how I felt about KH2 when it first came out. He moved much slower in KH2 v. KH1. And the camera is pulled back which makes it feel like he's walking even slower. I almost think it was done because they knew the environments they made for the game were puny, and making the player walk more slowly would make them seem larger. Which made the lack of dodge roll in base game KH2 even more annoying.

This is also why I've never been able to agree with others that KH2 had great gameplay. It's probably the most irksome game for me to play after Days and BbS. EDIT: And after Coded as well. I know most people would probably include CoM, but I enjoyed CoM's gameplay personally.
 
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okhi12

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Vanilla KH3 was seriously lacking in combos when not using a transformation and that hampered the gameplay, but after the free update the battle system feels like an improved, faster version of KH2 combat. I played some of KH2 data battles yerterday and visited some worlds just for fun and sure it feels slow. The lag in the PS3 version of 2.5 when using drive forms doesn't help either.
I also noticed that KH2 is just as floaty as KH3, I don't know why so many people back then were saying the gameplay of the KH3 demos and the final game was too floaty.

The only thing I actually miss is Reflect and Magnet spells, but nanogear, oathkeeper and oblivion barrier blocks and that magnet combo finisher of second form are good enough replacements, I guess.
 

Chaser

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I had this feeling when I was sick of people saying that you could run through Olympus in KH2 at the same time as Olympus in KH3. When I loaded up KH2, I couldn’t believe how slow Sora was moving.

From a non-gameplay point of view, because I was more interested in the time it took to get from point A to point B, Sora felt like he was running in 0.5 speed in KH2. It’s absolutely weird how my memory of KH2 is fast, snappy movement but when compared to KH3, it‘s slow and unintuitive.
 

Ven_Roxas

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I replayed the data Roxas fight the other day and thought the same thing. It was slower and not as responsive. The zoomed out camera is a plus though. I do think the magic in KH3 was a step down from KH2.

when I saw the multiple shortcut menus for KH3, I assumed we’d have a reason to use them (more magic options or using commands from BBS, ReCoded, DDD being able to be assigned to them).

but I agree that the gameplay was a lot slower in 2FM than I remember
 

WastedPenguin

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I partially agree with this.

Reflega, Magnega+Thundaga combo, and Final Form have definitely been somewhat unbalanced in 2FM but not as unbalanced as the Fire spam that made bosses in KH3 Vanilla a joke on any difficulty.

And don't forget the Ralph spam which allowed you to snack like 10 health bars in one go even on critical mode lvl1. Except for the Trio Limit (whose damage output is random) and Duck Flare, 2FM had nothing like that.

Before the free update, 2FM was superior and much more fun in my opinion. KH3 Vanilla felt too floaty and not as well thought out but they improved that a lot with the free update.
 

drew0512

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I partially agree with this.

Reflega, Magnega+Thundaga combo, and Final Form have definitely been somewhat unbalanced in 2FM but not as unbalanced as the Fire spam that made bosses in KH3 Vanilla a joke on any difficulty.

And don't forget the Ralph spam which allowed you to snack like 10 health bars in one go even on critical mode lvl1. Except for the Trio Limit (whose damage output is random) and Duck Flare, 2FM had nothing like that.
They are not "somewhat unbalanced", they are broken. You can literally cheese the game (including superbosses) with them, especially Reflect.
In addition, a thing is either balanced or unbalanced, "not as unbalanced as" doesn't make sense when it comes to a combat system. Every KH has broken things.

That being said, I had a similar experience. I've done a level 1 run on the highest difficulty for KH1 and KH2 after playing KH3. They made me love KH1's combat more and confirmed that, while I enjoy KH2's combat, it's definitely not my favourite. KH3 is an evolution of KH2 so it's hard to go back to KH2 without basic features (being able to use items or guard mid-air and stuff like that). You don't have flowmotion, or even dodge roll after a certain point. They are very similar, so the differences are very noticeable.

KH1, on the other hand, is very unique. KH2 improved Sora's movements but it also removed or toned down some mechanichs like tech points or parrying. Everything is slower, Sora is not floaty, you feel the weight of your weapon. Fights are often very platform-y and/or gimmick-y (Trickmaster, Jafar, Ursula, Phantom, etc.). KH2 represents a big change and when every game after it is basically based on its combat system, you really start seeing it in a different light when you get a game that feels like "KH2, but better". I don't think we will ever get a game that feels like KH1 but better, combat-wise. It's one of the reasons why KH1 is timeless to me.
 

WastedPenguin

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They are not "somewhat unbalanced", they are broken. You can literally cheese the game (including superbosses) with them, especially Reflect.
In addition, a thing is either balanced or unbalanced, "not as unbalanced as" doesn't make sense when it comes to a combat system. Every KH has broken things.

True. Every KH has broken things. I also agree that KH1's battle system is timeless.
Reflect really is broken when you play on lower difficulties than critical mode and on lvl ~50+.
However, why would you even want to cheese with reflect in KH2 when you have tons of other options that are fun to defeat bosses such as taking advantage of the abilities keyblades grant you and learning the bosses openings and attack patterns.

BBS and DDD did not offer that. Look at Vanitas and MF for example or pretty much everything in DDD. The superbosses in BBS are designed in a way that pretty much forces you to spam square and one command like the mines or thunder surge all the time. For DDD it was Balloonga spam.
 

drew0512

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True. Every KH has broken things. I also agree that KH1's battle system is timeless.
Reflect really is broken when you play on lower difficulties than critical mode and on lvl ~50+.
However, why would you even want to cheese with reflect in KH2 when you have tons of other options that are fun to defeat bosses such as taking advantage of the abilities keyblades grant you and learning the bosses openings and attack patterns.

BBS and DDD did not offer that. Look at Vanitas and MF for example or pretty much everything in DDD. The superbosses in BBS are designed in a way that pretty much forces you to spam square and one command like the mines or thunder surge all the time. For DDD it was Balloonga spam.
Another difference is that while every broken mechanic eventually leads to the same result, some are "hidden" strategies and some still require skills. Gravity + Stop in KH1 is not very intuitive and you are not likely to find it out on your own; Reflex still requires timing in KH2 and Ralph in KH3 still requires you to know how to position the block correctly to deal maximum damage.

In DDD and BBS all you need to do is to spam a certain command (and dodge in BBS). It's even worse because these cheese methods don't really have a cost unlike the ones from numbered titles.
 

pssst

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I don’t yet have this problem with kh2, but I’ve had this problem with KH1 for quite a while. I’m baffled that at 10 years old I was more comfortable with the games camera and mechanics than I am now.
 
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I know the feeling. I mean I wasn't "heartbroken", but what happened with me was basically in the time leading up to ReMIND's release I went back to beat all the secret bosses I never got around to beating (mostly the data battles in KH2 and Lingering Will). I also went back and fought Xemnas in KH1. I really liked the KH1 combat and appreciated that it was slower, but more technical. KH2 on the other hand... well, I dunno if I just got better at the game than the last time I attempted the data battles, but it didn't feel particularly hard which was a let down. Everything was just Reflect/Final Form/Mash X -- I actually killed Lingering Will on my first few tries (even though I was terrified of the fight). I know I could have implemented stuff to limit my abilities or whatever, but I didn't need to do that in the Xemnas (or Sephiroth) fight in KH1 to get a challenge.

KH3 (before ReMIND) was also pretty much like KH2 where you could be immortal and get through the fights by just mashing X. ReMIND really did an outstanding job to reveal a fighting system that I didn't even dream could be in KH3 or the KH series period. It made me use aspects of the game that I normally never use -- synthesis for stat increasing items, the bistro for food -- it made me plan out which equipment I would use in the fight, it actually gave me the feeling (for the first time in a KH game) of an "actual" RPG. Normally in KH games I just equip the best stuff to Sora and go on my merry way and will win. ReMIND needed me to think about everything before entering the fight and the combat itself was just so good.

The heart brokenness came from KH2 always being one of my favorite games and I just couldnt believe how different it felt to play it after kh3. Like....this has me questioning all of my gaming opinions lol

I partially agree with this.

Reflega, Magnega+Thundaga combo, and Final Form have definitely been somewhat unbalanced in 2FM but not as unbalanced as the Fire spam that made bosses in KH3 Vanilla a joke on any difficulty.

And don't forget the Ralph spam which allowed you to snack like 10 health bars in one go even on critical mode lvl1. Except for the Trio Limit (whose damage output is random) and Duck Flare, 2FM had nothing like that.

Before the free update, 2FM was superior and much more fun in my opinion. KH3 Vanilla felt too floaty and not as well thought out but they improved that a lot with the free update.

I think the whole broken mechanics thing is separate argument. I was just blown away by how slow Kh2 is compared Kh3. But I agree that KH3 still has balancing issues but in terms polish and speed its blows KH2 out of the water.... and that hurts me to type lol

I don’t yet have this problem with kh2, but I’ve had this problem with KH1 for quite a while. I’m baffled that at 10 years old I was more comfortable with the games camera and mechanics than I am now.

Crazy you say that because I went to KH1 right after kh3 to see if that was slow too, and idk why, but kh1 actually felt faster than kh2. Got me feeling like my whole world is a lie

They are not "somewhat unbalanced", they are broken. You can literally cheese the game (including superbosses) with them, especially Reflect.
In addition, a thing is either balanced or unbalanced, "not as unbalanced as" doesn't make sense when it comes to a combat system. Every KH has broken things.

That being said, I had a similar experience. I've done a level 1 run on the highest difficulty for KH1 and KH2 after playing KH3. They made me love KH1's combat more and confirmed that, while I enjoy KH2's combat, it's definitely not my favourite. KH3 is an evolution of KH2 so it's hard to go back to KH2 without basic features (being able to use items or guard mid-air and stuff like that). You don't have flowmotion, or even dodge roll after a certain point. They are very similar, so the differences are very noticeable.

KH1, on the other hand, is very unique. KH2 improved Sora's movements but it also removed or toned down some mechanichs like tech points or parrying. Everything is slower, Sora is not floaty, you feel the weight of your weapon. Fights are often very platform-y and/or gimmick-y (Trickmaster, Jafar, Ursula, Phantom, etc.). KH2 represents a big change and when every game after it is basically based on its combat system, you really start seeing it in a different light when you get a game that feels like "KH2, but better". I don't think we will ever get a game that feels like KH1 but better, combat-wise. It's one of the reasons why KH1 is timeless to me.

This.... all of this!!!
 

SweetYetSalty

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I think KH1 still plays really well. Ironically to me it's one of the KH games that has aged the best in terms of characters, story, and gameplay. KH1 is still the best the series has to offer. Don't get me wrong, I love all the KH games for one reason or another, but KH1 to me has that "whole package" deal.

I imagine the KH2 superbosses might look slow in comparison to what KH3 gave me the next time I play the former.
 
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My biggest issue with KH2 is that i can't block mid air.
kh3 imo have the better gameplay overall

I'm really coming around on that opinion. Kh3 might really be the goat

I replayed the data Roxas fight the other day and thought the same thing. It was slower and not as responsive. The zoomed out camera is a plus though. I do think the magic in KH3 was a step down from KH2.

when I saw the multiple shortcut menus for KH3, I assumed we’d have a reason to use them (more magic options or using commands from BBS, ReCoded, DDD being able to be assigned to them).

but I agree that the gameplay was a lot slower in 2FM than I remember

Dude, the Data Roxas fight was the first thing I did, because it was always my favorite fight in all of KH. After this.... I cant even look at Roxas the same.

I think the magic thing is a fair point. Kh2 let you chain magic together in a more complex way since all the spells did very different things. But grand magic added a new layer, that I think evens that out

This is how I felt about KH2 when it first came out. He moved much slower in KH2 v. KH1. And the camera is pulled back which makes it feel like he's walking even slower. I almost think it was done because they knew the environments they made for the game were puny, and making the player walk more slowly would make them seem larger. Which made the lack of dodge roll in base game KH2 even more annoying.

This is also why I've never been able to agree with others that KH2 had great gameplay. It's probably the most irksome game for me to play after Days and BbS. EDIT: And after Coded as well. I know most people would probably include CoM, but I enjoyed CoM's gameplay personally.

As a community, we don't talk enough about how terrible it is that you dont get a dodge in KH2 basically until Port Royal.

I'm gonna try to play kh2 from start to finish soon, and I'm so worried that the game will just never feel the same to me.
 

drew0512

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Dude, the Data Roxas fight was the first thing I did, because it was always my favorite fight in all of KH. After this.... I cant even look at Roxas the same.

I think the magic thing is a fair point. Kh2 let you chain magic together in a more complex way since all the spells did very different things. But grand magic added a new layer, that I think evens that out
KH3's magic system is underrated. Blizzard can freeze and you can use it to reach the enemy faster while initiating a flowmotion attack. Water is useful when shadows and neoshadows are "hiding" on the ground and can act as a shield; thunder makes the enemies slower and aero works like magnet while also letting you chain a flowmotion attack. Reflect was removed as a basic spell because it was OP and instead implemented as barrier in several formchanges (and you can still damage enemies and start a combo with counterattacks). Magic also change based on the Formchange you are using, so you can get spells that act like KH2's fire or spells that act as multiple fast projectiles. And you also have grand magic.
 

Absent

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I never understood why people placed Kingdom Hearts 2 on a high pedestal. The game was above average but nothing revolutionary. Kingdom Hearts 1 had the luxury of introducing the concept of mixing Disney with other properties so it could stand above other games during its time. When you compare two things it is very important to understand the context of how and why it happened. The time period and the industry at the time are the foundation to those games.

Is KH2 weirdly regarded as the best KH game by a majority? Perhaps.

Is it fair to compare a 2019 game to a 2005/2006 one and say that the new one plays better?

I mean it should play better. It has to or else something is VERY wrong.

I think a more fair discussion is how the story was treated and executed between the two entries.

PS: I also think that KH3 plays WAY better than 2 but I really don't agree with the idea of bringing KH2 into every discussion and comparing it to a new and innovative game from a decade later.
 

ultima-demi

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As someone that vastly prefers melee combat, I still consider KH2 is the best. I have more fun fighting mobs in KH2 than i ever had in KH3 still
 
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KH3's magic system is underrated. Blizzard can freeze and you can use it to reach the enemy faster while initiating a flowmotion attack. Water is useful when shadows and neoshadows are "hiding" on the ground and can act as a shield; thunder makes the enemies slower and aero works like magnet while also letting you chain a flowmotion attack. Reflect was removed as a basic spell because it was OP and instead implemented as barrier in several formchanges (and you can still damage enemies and start a combo with counterattacks). Magic also change based on the Formchange you are using, so you can get spells that act like KH2's fire or spells that act as multiple fast projectiles. And you also have grand magic.

You know what... you might have a point. Maybe Kh3 magic is better than Kh2. Kinda crazy how Kh2 is just getting eviscerated in this thread
 

CutiePique

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I never understood why people placed Kingdom Hearts 2 on a high pedestal. The game was above average but nothing revolutionary. Kingdom Hearts 1 had the luxury of introducing the concept of mixing Disney with other properties so it could stand above other games during its time. When you compare two things it is very important to understand the context of how and why it happened. The time period and the industry at the time are the foundation to those games.

Is KH2 weirdly regarded as the best KH game by a majority? Perhaps.

Is it fair to compare a 2019 game to a 2005/2006 one and say that the new one plays better?

I mean it should play better. It has to or else something is VERY wrong.

I think a more fair discussion is how the story was treated and executed between the two entries.

PS: I also think that KH3 plays WAY better than 2 but I really don't agree with the idea of bringing KH2 into every discussion and comparing it to a new and innovative game from a decade later.
^Absent nailed what I wanted to say right on the head, especially the pedestal part. If anything's "heartbreaking" to me here, it's KH2's fall from grace for, apparently, being what it's been for over a decade.

I mean, as a counterpoint to "KH2 Sora gameplay doesn't feel like KH3 Sora gameplay", the expectations the game's systems has on you the player isn't the same in both games either? The game's not being unfair expecting you to move at speeds/in ways that you're not capable of/that it hasn't provided for you. You're not playing as KH2 Sora, fighting enemies that behave and move like KH3 enemies, yanno? (...Assuming I'm expressing myself correctly.)

In short, KH2/KH2FM is a lovely, fun, enjoyable game from the mid-2000s (whatever that decade reads as) and you're selling it short just because it doesn't live up to the standards set for KH3.
 
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