Film ► Frozen II - November 2019



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xiaojen7

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

I can't view the concept art :'(
 

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

I don't believe I've ever commented here, so I may be a little late on this one. I'm of the mind that Elsa shouldn't have a girlfriend. It isn't to do with some opposition to same-sex couples or anything, but Elsa was not a character driven by romance at all in her movie. She was isolated her entire life, and giving her a male or a female for her to be in a relationship with is not true to the character. With having dual protagonists in Frozen, I think it is a far more interesting dynamic to have one of those characters be a part of a relationship and the other one not, as I personally find the interactions that come with that far more interesting than the ones that come with one being straight and one being a lesbian.

Again, I don't take issue with homosexual characters or people, and as forward thinking as Disney is, throwing in same sex relationship just to be forward thinking doesn't suit them, it isn't how they do things. I think it is certainly possible for us to see a supporting character in a homosexual relationship, but I don't think we'll see it with Elsa. It doesn't fit her character.
 

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

I don't believe I've ever commented here, so I may be a little late on this one. I'm of the mind that Elsa shouldn't have a girlfriend. It isn't to do with some opposition to same-sex couples or anything, but Elsa was not a character driven by romance at all in her movie. She was isolated her entire life, and giving her a male or a female for her to be in a relationship with is not true to the character. With having dual protagonists in Frozen, I think it is a far more interesting dynamic to have one of those characters be a part of a relationship and the other one not, as I personally find the interactions that come with that far more interesting than the ones that come with one being straight and one being a lesbian.

Again, I don't take issue with homosexual characters or people, and as forward thinking as Disney is, throwing in same sex relationship just to be forward thinking doesn't suit them, it isn't how they do things. I think it is certainly possible for us to see a supporting character in a homosexual relationship, but I don't think we'll see it with Elsa. It doesn't fit her character.
On the contrary, it totally does. Elsa's personal arc in the original film was a huge metaphor for coming out of the closet and accepting one's own sexuality.

[video=youtube;_CyOscehxWQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CyOscehxWQ[/video]

Renegade Cut does a great job explaining everything in this video.
 

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

On the contrary, it totally does. Elsa's personal arc in the original film was a huge metaphor for coming out of the closet and accepting one's own sexuality.

[video=youtube;_CyOscehxWQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CyOscehxWQ[/video]

Renegade Cut does a great job explaining everything in this video.
I disagree completely. It's not that I find it is unfitting for Elsa to date a woman, but I feel it is unnecessary and out of character for her to be in a relationship at all. Being different and coming out of the closet does not necessarily equate to the characteristic of her deserving a relationship. The very fact of being in a relationship does not fit a character that has been so isolated and so independent her entire life.

I did not make the point that dating a girl does not fit Elsa. Being in a relationship is what does not suit her.
 

Kaijuguy19

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

^^Agreed. The fact that Elsa is already considered to be a progressive character be a lot of people is enough to make her an solid character. Trying to force down more progressive elements to her would be overkill.
 

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

[video=youtube;uSLv9cYOA6M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSLv9cYOA6M[/video]

I think this is a fantastic theory that adds a lot more to Hans and his roe in the film. Makes him less randomly evil.
 

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

Actually, his theory is correct! Jennifer Lee confirms that Hans was based off of the mirror from the original tale in this scriptnotes interview. Hans is a confirmed sociopath that simply reflects others due to him being raised without love (Statement from Jennifer Lee in the reddit interview).

There's also a non-canon book called A Frozen Heart, that kinda goes into his backstory (it even shows Hans self-harming, etc.) but since it is non-canon I don't really count it, but it's interesting to think about.

I am a big Frozen fan (I even have two of the Limited Edition dolls heh heh) and discussed Hans' character in great detail with fellow fans and friends lol. I know a ton of stuff about him.
 

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

I'd love to hear more about Hans if you are willing to post about his character. If this thread isn't proof enough, we don't have many Frozen fans around here. (Personally I hate the film but it is good fun regardless)
 

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

(Personally I hate the film but it is good fun regardless)
Master Spockanort said:
Saw Frozen, it was absolutely perfect. Animation was perfect, pacing was really great, the cast was wonderful, and Olaf is not annoying!
lol

I feel like by the time Frozen 2 comes out, much of its hype will be fairly dead like Avatar 2. There'll be fans sure, I mean I'm like the only person excited for Avatar 2, but I guess that's like apples and oranges.
 

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

lol

I feel like by the time Frozen 2 comes out, much of its hype will be fairly dead like Avatar 2. There'll be fans sure, I mean I'm like the only person excited for Avatar 2, but I guess that's like apples and oranges.
Opinions can change over time. I loved man of steel when it first released and now i think its a steaming pile of shit.
 

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

I liked it when I watched it but god after letting it stew for a few weeks, all of the plot holes became apparent. Doesn't help that I watched a million dissections of the film and it make the whole thing worse off for me.

But like I said, it is good fun. I don't watch the film for a cohesive story. I watch it for the pretty visuals, the soundtrack, and the character designs.

Olaf is still the best thing about the film!
 

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

I'd heard about the Hans-as-mirror stuff back when the film was still in theaters. It made a lot of sense when I first read it. Still the best film of the revival so far, imo. I'm hesitant about a sequel not living up to the first one though. Of course I have a feeling Disney will be incredibly careful with the plot considering it's their crown jewel at the moment.
 

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

Frozen is among my favorite Disney movies ever and the fact that it still made an impact for a lot of people does say a lot. I don't think it'll end up being like Avatar in a few years because Frozen honestly when compared to Avatar it doesn't have the same problems people have had with Avatar.
 

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

Yeah people's opinions change, I remember when I was first hearing about Frozen I did not like it and wanted nothing to do with it. Then my sister dragged me to the theaters and I really enjoyed myself. Everything has flaws, no movie is perfect, and while this movie could have been so much better (you can say that for every movie in existence), I really liked the characters and related to them on a personal level. That's enough for me to like/love a film.

I'd love to hear more about Hans if you are willing to post about his character.
Ooooh boy here we go! XD
All information is from the script notes interview, Lee's twitter, Fontana's interviews and twitter, the reddit page, in movie stuff, the pre-Frozen prophecy script, the Art of Frozen, the disney wiki, and a little from a Frozen Heart~.

As we all know, Elsa was meant to be the redeemed villain in an original take. There was a prophecy in Arendelle that said that the land was cursed to be doomed to an eternal winter and that a ruler with a frozen heart would emerge. In the meantime, Anna was jealous of her sister, because everyone thought Elsa was regal and graceful and fit to be ruler, while Anna wanted to be more than just a spare. So this caused slight animosity towards the sisters, which helped fuel later events. Hans was in this version, as an Admiral with the last name of Westergaard. He meets Anna, they fall in love, want to get married, then the rest ensues (Elsa being upset with it, then leaving etc.). In this version though, Elsa willingly sets an eternal winter, and has evil intentions. When Admiral Westergaard decides to send a patrol to find Anna's whereabouts, Elsa admits to be building an army just like his, insinuating a war. A little after that, when Anna finds Elsa, they reconcile for a minute only to begin fighting again afterwards (this looks like it was on the verge of becoming good Elsa, as the designs are different, but the prophecy is still mentioned). In the end (my memory is a little shaky on this one), it is revealed that Admiral Westergaard only married Anna so he could become royalty, and he was the frozen heart the prophecy described, not Elsa. Elsa and Anna defeat him, similar to the events of the movie, and Elsa resumes role as Queen of Arendelle (whatever happened with the snow armies and Westergaards army I do not know, not sure if all of that was released to the public since this was a scrapped story).

After writing Let it Go and deciding that Elsa would not be a villain at all, Admiral Westergaard was completely rewritten into Prince Hans of the Southern Isles. Lee confirms in a tweet that Westergaard can be kept as his last name, although he is a little different from the character. Santino Fontana later uses the name Westergaard in an interview (at around 15:35) as he talks about his time with Frozen. It is also interesting to note that Fontana calls Hans a sociopath in the same interview, but expresses that the creators have come to him in hopes of Hans returning for the sequel (for a redemption arc).

But let's get back on the sociopath comment for a second. Many people figured that there was something wrong while Hans had screen time. Some of his personality was inconsistent, his intentions were completely oblivious to the audience, and some even considered his 360 a little rushed an unexpected. This has been brought to the attention of Jennifer Lee and Chris buck, so during the script notes interview, Ms. Lee went into more detail. "He was evil as soon as he hit Anna on the horse," Lee begins, stating that Hans' intentions were always harmful. He saw Anna as an opportunity to his goal, because she was naive and thought little of herself (why he says, "just you" in response to Anna not trying to make herself sound so important). This is why he smiles in the water, and why he begins grooming Anna.

Not once do we actually see Hans show independent likes and personality traits. The entire time during the beginning sequence and Love is an Open Door, for example, he mimics Anna, matching her personality and filling in everything that she enjoys. The sandwiches line is a dead give away, showing Hans just agreeing to everything Anna says and does, with no quarrels or criticisms. "I like that," Hans says to Anna when she explains her white streak, noticing that she was a little self-conscious about it. In the interview, Lee explains how she liked the mirror concept, and wanted to bring that back in a version of Hans. He mimics everyone to let them see what they want to see, but when you peel off the mask, all that's left is a person who is "hollow, and sociopathic". Lee then explains that she is slightly sociopath herself, and really wanted Hans to represent someone who has Anti-Social-Personality Disorder in the most correct way possible for an animated feature.

Even in the art book, animator Lino DiSalvo describes Hans as "a chameleon who adapts to any environment to make the other characters comfortable.”

Hans is goal oriented, and will do whatever it takes to get what he wants. A product of being raised without love, Hans wanted to rise above his brothers and father, and show that even if he was last in line, he could still rise on top and prove everyone wrong.

In a Frozen Heart, while not canon, kind of gives a perspective of what could have possibly happened. Take this with a grain of salt though, as it was written by someone else and while published by Disney, Jennifer Lee wasn't even aware that the book existed. In this story, Hans was raised by abuse, the father believing that the weak needed to be beaten up in order to be stronger. The father was always abusive towards Hans, and encouraged his other sons to continuously pick on him. Hans was told every single day that he was worthless, that he had nothing, and that he was the unlucky 13th son, not even a spare, but a nuisance. During a party, Hans had something sharp in his hands (I can't remember what it was) and he was slowly pricking himself with it. He describes that it was the first thing he actually felt, and reflected on that for a while. During a conversation with his brother Lars (the only brother that tolerated him), it was Lars that brought up that Hans should go to Arendelle and sweep Queen Elsa off of her feet, becoming King of Arendelle. Hans agreed, and fought tooth and nail with his father to go to Arendelle in order to represent the Southern Isles. Begrudgingly, the father let him go, and then we have the events of Frozen.

It is true that Hans wanted to woo Elsa first, but since "no one was getting anywhere with her" (quote from the movie), he bumped into Anna and thought it was a wonderful opportunity to worm his way in.

The fandom was always weird with Hans, they kept thinking that Hans must have been a good guy in a previous version, even going as far as saying that he didn't change until they animated the reveal (how on earth they thought that made sense I have no clue). But, according to the prophecy script, Admiral Westergaard was always the bad guy. He did not care about Anna or Elsa, he did not care about sparing Elsa (he only wanted to use her, which is why he didn't kill her in the ice palace), he did not care about the people (he simply became the hero that everyone wanted to gain their favor), he only cared about himself, because what he wanted more than anything, was to be better than his family. He is a dangerous individual that has problems with his emotions, and will harm anyone that gets in his way.
 

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

That video is interesting, never heard of the mirror theory about Hans before. In the video though he says Han's smile under the boat after falling into the water makes no sense. Having watched the film multiple times I always took that smile to show him thinking "this dumb bitch is going to be so easy to manipulate." Same with this part of their duet. But anyways the rest of the video is spot on, makes a lot of sense.
 

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

I'd heard about the Hans-as-mirror stuff back when the film was still in theaters. It made a lot of sense when I first read it. Still the best film of the revival so far, imo. I'm hesitant about a sequel not living up to the first one though. Of course I have a feeling Disney will be incredibly careful with the plot considering it's their crown jewel at the moment.
I actually disagree. I personally think Zootopia, Big Hero 6, and Tangled (my favorite of the revival) are all significantly better than Frozen. Frozen's music and visuals are great, and while it's got some great characters, they, as well as the overall plot, themes, and coherency of all the movie's elements don't come close to comparing to the other movies I mentioned. I'm not discrediting your opinion at all, because I still love Frozen, but I personally think it is more good fun than it is a truly great movie (there's nothing wrong with that). It's easy to see why Frozen was a big hit with so many people though.

Disney really has incredible pressure every time they put together a sequel, but you're right about this one in particular due to its mainstream reception. Disney sequels (not counting Pixar), due to their older history of direct-to-DVD releases and unfortunately lower quality, still sometimes hold a negative connotation with most people. It's a lot like the live action adaptations of their films, even though some of the more recent ones have been really good. The Frozen sequel is arguably one of their more important films out on the horizon, because I personally think it could affect how we see Disney sequels (again, excluding Pixar) in the relatively near future. As excited as I am for films like Moana and Gigantic, it is the Frozen sequel that intrigues me the most.
 

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

About the revival, my favorite movie is Tangled, too. And I feel like characters in that movie felt much more "real" and "alive" to me. In Frozen... the only thing that really drove the narrative was the songs (which are overrated as hell if ya ask me)

Also, I feel like I'm the only person who literally thought 'yup, this one's evil' during the watch, so the twist wasn't really a twist, more a confirmation.

/rant
 

Kaijuguy19

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Re: Frozen - Sequel REALLY coming so you never have to "let it go"

Yeah people's opinions change, I remember when I was first hearing about Frozen I did not like it and wanted nothing to do with it. Then my sister dragged me to the theaters and I really enjoyed myself. Everything has flaws, no movie is perfect, and while this movie could have been so much better (you can say that for every movie in existence), I really liked the characters and related to them on a personal level. That's enough for me to like/love a film.



Ooooh boy here we go! XD
All information is from the script notes interview, Lee's twitter, Fontana's interviews and twitter, the reddit page, in movie stuff, the pre-Frozen prophecy script, the Art of Frozen, the disney wiki, and a little from a Frozen Heart~.

As we all know, Elsa was meant to be the redeemed villain in an original take. There was a prophecy in Arendelle that said that the land was cursed to be doomed to an eternal winter and that a ruler with a frozen heart would emerge. In the meantime, Anna was jealous of her sister, because everyone thought Elsa was regal and graceful and fit to be ruler, while Anna wanted to be more than just a spare. So this caused slight animosity towards the sisters, which helped fuel later events. Hans was in this version, as an Admiral with the last name of Westergaard. He meets Anna, they fall in love, want to get married, then the rest ensues (Elsa being upset with it, then leaving etc.). In this version though, Elsa willingly sets an eternal winter, and has evil intentions. When Admiral Westergaard decides to send a patrol to find Anna's whereabouts, Elsa admits to be building an army just like his, insinuating a war. A little after that, when Anna finds Elsa, they reconcile for a minute only to begin fighting again afterwards (this looks like it was on the verge of becoming good Elsa, as the designs are different, but the prophecy is still mentioned). In the end (my memory is a little shaky on this one), it is revealed that Admiral Westergaard only married Anna so he could become royalty, and he was the frozen heart the prophecy described, not Elsa. Elsa and Anna defeat him, similar to the events of the movie, and Elsa resumes role as Queen of Arendelle (whatever happened with the snow armies and Westergaards army I do not know, not sure if all of that was released to the public since this was a scrapped story).

After writing Let it Go and deciding that Elsa would not be a villain at all, Admiral Westergaard was completely rewritten into Prince Hans of the Southern Isles. Lee confirms in a tweet that Westergaard can be kept as his last name, although he is a little different from the character. Santino Fontana later uses the name Westergaard in an interview (at around 15:35) as he talks about his time with Frozen. It is also interesting to note that Fontana calls Hans a sociopath in the same interview, but expresses that the creators have come to him in hopes of Hans returning for the sequel (for a redemption arc).

But let's get back on the sociopath comment for a second. Many people figured that there was something wrong while Hans had screen time. Some of his personality was inconsistent, his intentions were completely oblivious to the audience, and some even considered his 360 a little rushed an unexpected. This has been brought to the attention of Jennifer Lee and Chris buck, so during the script notes interview, Ms. Lee went into more detail. "He was evil as soon as he hit Anna on the horse," Lee begins, stating that Hans' intentions were always harmful. He saw Anna as an opportunity to his goal, because she was naive and thought little of herself (why he says, "just you" in response to Anna not trying to make herself sound so important). This is why he smiles in the water, and why he begins grooming Anna.

Not once do we actually see Hans show independent likes and personality traits. The entire time during the beginning sequence and Love is an Open Door, for example, he mimics Anna, matching her personality and filling in everything that she enjoys. The sandwiches line is a dead give away, showing Hans just agreeing to everything Anna says and does, with no quarrels or criticisms. "I like that," Hans says to Anna when she explains her white streak, noticing that she was a little self-conscious about it. In the interview, Lee explains how she liked the mirror concept, and wanted to bring that back in a version of Hans. He mimics everyone to let them see what they want to see, but when you peel off the mask, all that's left is a person who is "hollow, and sociopathic". Lee then explains that she is slightly sociopath herself, and really wanted Hans to represent someone who has Anti-Social-Personality Disorder in the most correct way possible for an animated feature.

Even in the art book, animator Lino DiSalvo describes Hans as "a chameleon who adapts to any environment to make the other characters comfortable.”

Hans is goal oriented, and will do whatever it takes to get what he wants. A product of being raised without love, Hans wanted to rise above his brothers and father, and show that even if he was last in line, he could still rise on top and prove everyone wrong.

In a Frozen Heart, while not canon, kind of gives a perspective of what could have possibly happened. Take this with a grain of salt though, as it was written by someone else and while published by Disney, Jennifer Lee wasn't even aware that the book existed. In this story, Hans was raised by abuse, the father believing that the weak needed to be beaten up in order to be stronger. The father was always abusive towards Hans, and encouraged his other sons to continuously pick on him. Hans was told every single day that he was worthless, that he had nothing, and that he was the unlucky 13th son, not even a spare, but a nuisance. During a party, Hans had something sharp in his hands (I can't remember what it was) and he was slowly pricking himself with it. He describes that it was the first thing he actually felt, and reflected on that for a while. During a conversation with his brother Lars (the only brother that tolerated him), it was Lars that brought up that Hans should go to Arendelle and sweep Queen Elsa off of her feet, becoming King of Arendelle. Hans agreed, and fought tooth and nail with his father to go to Arendelle in order to represent the Southern Isles. Begrudgingly, the father let him go, and then we have the events of Frozen.

It is true that Hans wanted to woo Elsa first, but since "no one was getting anywhere with her" (quote from the movie), he bumped into Anna and thought it was a wonderful opportunity to worm his way in.

The fandom was always weird with Hans, they kept thinking that Hans must have been a good guy in a previous version, even going as far as saying that he didn't change until they animated the reveal (how on earth they thought that made sense I have no clue). But, according to the prophecy script, Admiral Westergaard was always the bad guy. He did not care about Anna or Elsa, he did not care about sparing Elsa (he only wanted to use her, which is why he didn't kill her in the ice palace), he did not care about the people (he simply became the hero that everyone wanted to gain their favor), he only cared about himself, because what he wanted more than anything, was to be better than his family. He is a dangerous individual that has problems with his emotions, and will harm anyone that gets in his way.
That's very interesting to hear and it does help give a better idea of who Hans was and it makes how he was made in the movie all the more unsettling. As for Elsa I'm actually glad they decided to ditch the idea of Elsa being a villain/reformed villain because I don't think this is the type of story that would work for that. It also resulted into making her among Disney's more interesting characters in years since she displays someone that hasn't featured much. So yeah it's very understandable that she's made an impact for a lot of folks because she's one of the more relatable and realistic characters.

What I want to see in the sequel is probably have Elsa go against a villain who may have gone through a similar life as hers but went down a darker path and have her win over that villain after finding out the type of life he or she had since she knows what it's like to be scared and self loathing. It would make for a massive character growth for her and it would present an ending not often found in Disney movies. Winning over a villain to redemption. Or at least someone in the sequel who went though something similar. It was what I liked about OUAT season 4 the first half anyway since it gave Elsa some more development for her character and I hope to see happen in the sequel too.
 
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