Foreteller Animal Emblems = Symbolism?

[BlackOsprey]

If anybody has any plot relevance of getting killed of then it's Ventus. Killing off Ventus will completely eradicate Vanitas.

First of all: Would it now? Isn't that running on assumptions? Remember that the instance of self-sacrifice we see at the end of BBS worked only because Ven's and Vanitas' hearts were melded together again in forming the X-Blade, so smashing the X-Blade should've destroyed both of them. And before then, earlier in the story, Vanitas attacked Ven in the Badlands and seemed to be trying to kill him til Mickey intervened. Why would Vanitas do that if it put his own existence in danger?

Secondly, hasn't Ven been through enough already? He's had to endure far more physical and mental trauma than most of the characters combined, and I'd rather it not all be in vain. Plus Ven's already played the self-sacrifice card; rather than it being impactful, I'd just think "Really? Again?"

 

[Dandelion]

Unless merged together, Ventus and Vanitas don't necessarily have a symbiotic relationship. Vanitas, lest we forget, was fully-formed and functioning when Ven was at death's door on Destiny Islands. If Ven failed, Xehanort even had a backup. Aqua.

 

[Zanzetsuken]

I still find it interesting that the Overnort had something planned for Aqua at that point, something which totally backfired on him in the end.

I do agree that the Realm of Darkness may have done something to Aqua or Aqua has found something in RoD that called her to stay willingly for longer. Alternatively, she could've self-sacrifice her freedom again so Riku would return to the RoL in her place. If so just slay me down hard.

(Though if I'm honest, I wouldn't mind a hint of budding darkness in her since it could connect her to the sin of Envy since everyone is pretty much living on happily with friendships and reunion and junk while she is stuck in hell.)

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Unicornis: Our books are missing part of the story-- The Lost Page.
Anguis: I found the traitor.
Ursus: I don't believe there is one among us.
Vulpeus: Are we all going to turn against one another?
Leopardus: It's written on that page that one will betray all.

Anguis' line is pretty suspicious when left alone just like that, as the "traitor" among the Foretellers and the one that will "betray all" aka bring about the catastrophe of the prophecy does not necessarily have to be the same person.
Ursus' line sounds like he either is too trusting or in denial about the possibility that one of them could be not so trustworthy as initially thought.
Uh, and Leopardus...how does he know what is written on the page that's missing???

If anybody has any plot relevance of getting killed of then it's Ventus. Killing off Ventus will completely eradicate Vanitas.

I really do not know from where you get these totally unfounded assumptions. If the erasure of Ventus would really mean automatically the erasure of Vanitas as well Xehanort would not have left Ven to die on Destiny Islands four years before BBS.
Xehanort was convinced that Ven was done for and it didn't seem to affect Vanitas all that much.

First of all: Would it now? Isn't that running on assumptions? Remember that the instance of self-sacrifice we see at the end of BBS worked only because Ven's and Vanitas' hearts were melded together again in forming the X-Blade, so smashing the X-Blade should've destroyed both of them. And before then, earlier in the story, Vanitas attacked Ven in the Badlands and seemed to be trying to kill him til Mickey intervened. Why would Vanitas do that if it put his own existence in danger?

Secondly, hasn't Ven been through enough already? He's had to endure far more physical and mental trauma than most of the characters combined, and I'd rather it not all be in vain. Plus Ven's already played the self-sacrifice card; rather than it being impactful, I'd just think "Really? Again?"

Correct, it is a totally unfounded claim that is not only not supported by the series itself, it is outright contradicted by it.

Strangely, all the shit that Ven had and has to endure seems to fly over many people's heads, as if he isn't even one of the tormented and his heart sleeping inside Sora is actually a vacation instead of a gravely wounded being resting to recuperate. Is it maybe because it wasn't forced down our throats at every second game minute like with Xion?

I still find it interesting that the Overnort...

The Overnort...Overnort...lol, somehow I dig that nickname.

 

[BlackOsprey]

I really do not know from where you get these totally unfounded assumptions. If the erasure of Ventus would really mean automatically the erasure of Vanitas as well Xehanort would not have left Ven to die on Destiny Islands four years before BBS.
Xehanort was convinced that Ven was done for and it didn't seem to affect Vanitas all that much.

This misconception probably can be blamed on the climax of Ven's story. Since it's one of the most memorable parts of Ven's story and it very explicitly involves mutual assured destruction, someone who doesn't remember everything about BBS could come to the conclusion that Ven's and Vanitas' existences are mutually dependent all the time. Of course, the idea doesn't hold up under very much scrutiny.

Strangely, all the shit that Ven had and has to endure seems to fly over many people's heads, as if he isn't even one of the tormented and his heart sleeping inside Sora is actually a vacation instead of a gravely wounded being resting to recuperate. Is it maybe because it wasn't forced down our throats at every second game minute like with Xion?

Out of sight, out of mind, I guess. That, and I guess most people assumed that Ven's been in an unfeeling, comatose state for a decade. Given your portrayal of that whole situation in that fanfic of yours, I suppose you have a very different idea of how that all worked out.

 

[hemmoheikkinen]

Out of sight, out of mind, I guess. That, and I guess most people assumed that Ven's been in an unfeeling, comatose state for a decade. Given your portrayal of that whole situation in that fanfic of yours, I suppose you have a very different idea of how that all worked out.

This is something I have assumed what has happened in Ven`s case. He went trough immense amount of trauma and pain after his heart was broken by Xehanort, and at the end of all the conflict in the KG, he shatters his own heart. After that since he was sleeping in Sora`s heart I assumed that it was this unfeeling comatose state, where he is just gathering energy and to healing.
But since in games like DDD where Ven`s heart reacts to things, his heart might not have been as inactive as I thought first.

 

[BlackOsprey]

But since in games like DDD where Ven`s heart reacts to things, his heart might not have been as inactive as I thought first.

I kind of assumed that the unusual nature of that situation was the reason why Ven's heart seemed responsive at all. Sora was in the deepest part of that dream-within-a-dream, which allowed stuff buried really deep in his subconscious (several people and a whole lotta pain) to manifest before him.

 

[hemmoheikkinen]

I kind of assumed that the unusual nature of that situation was the reason why Ven's heart seemed responsive at all. Sora was in the deepest part of that dream-within-a-dream, which allowed stuff buried really deep in his subconscious (several people and a whole lotta pain) to manifest before him.

That is what I think about the The World That Never Was part too, but what about when Vanitas appears? Sora is in dream but how deep of level he was at that point?

EDIT: I feel kinda dum after reading Sephiroth`s post. But yes I will not further derail this discussion, sorry about that.

 

[Alpha Baymax]

I really do not know from where you get these totally unfounded assumptions. If the erasure of Ventus would really mean automatically the erasure of Vanitas as well Xehanort would not have left Ven to die on Destiny Islands four years before BBS. Xehanort was convinced that Ven was done for and it didn't seem to affect Vanitas all that much.

Thanks for the clarity. I just assumed that Vanitas and Ventus were indeed symbiotic. I didn't know that Master Xehanort wanted Ven to rest in peace in Destiny Islands as opposed to just sleeping. I suppose it's the Dive to the Heart battle with Vanitas and his broken X-Blade that made me hard-wired to believe that Ven and Vanitas have to depend on each-other as they're two halves of one coin.

I think we're derailing slighty off topic: lets jump back to the Foreteller's and their animal symbols.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

This misconception probably can be blamed on the climax of Ven's story. Since it's one of the most memorable parts of Ven's story and it very explicitly involves mutual assured destruction, someone who doesn't remember everything about BBS could come to the conclusion that Ven's and Vanitas' existences are mutually dependent all the time. Of course, the idea doesn't hold up under very much scrutiny.

Out of sight, out of mind, I guess. That, and I guess most people assumed that Ven's been in an unfeeling, comatose state for a decade. Given your portrayal of that whole situation in that fanfic of yours, I suppose you have a very different idea of how that all worked out.

Yea no, if people take that from the climax of Ven's story they haven't paying enough attention. The mutual assured destruction in the final battle comes from the fact that both of their hearts are made part of the X-blade in that botched fusion Vanitas forced, not any actual connection between Ven's and Vanitas' lifeforce/existence, Vanitas even points that out right before the final battle starts as blunt as it is typical for him:

The X-blade is made of your heart, too, idiot. If you destroy it, your heart will vanish forever.

Besides the issue in the prologue with Xehanort, during the game itself Vanitas has also no qualms on trying to destroy Ven, citing Aqua as a backup "plan B". It would be quite pointless to even have a Plan B if destroying Ven would also mean Vanitas' end.
This all doesn't even require much scrutiny, but just simple logic and paying attention to the events of the game.

Just because his body is comatose and his heart asleep doesn't automatically mean there aren't any feelings.
One doesn't even need to bring any FanFic-interpretations into it, as if there weren't any feelings around, Sora's heart would not have been negatively affected so much when experiencing it in DDD.

 

[BlackOsprey]

That is what I think about the The World That Never Was part too, but what about when Vanitas appears? Sora is in dream but how deep of level he was at that point?

*facedesk* See what I said about forgetting details? I do it all the time too.

If anything, that incident was probably a shout-out to those who knew about the whole "Ven is in Sora's heart and Vanitas is kinda related" thing, considering that Vanitas just appears and disappears out of nowhere, and Sora has no explicit reaction to Vanitas whatsoever.

Then again, that could've been a "mild" case of what ended up happening in TWTNW. In the regular dream world, you might run into a "shout-out" every now and then, and you might not even notice it. Go all Inception on the dream layers, and those "shout-outs" will begin to manifest themselves as events that can be lived through, and tangible people capable of interaction. The most extreme example is probably when you actually become those people rather than just see them.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Thanks for the clarity. I just assumed that Vanitas and Ventus were indeed symbiotic. I didn't know that Master Xehanort wanted Ven to rest in peace in Destiny Islands as opposed to just sleeping. I suppose it's the Dive to the Heart battle with Vanitas and his broken X-Blade that made me hard-wired to believe that Ven and Vanitas have to depend on each-other as they're two halves of one coin.

I think we're derailing slighty off topic: lets jump back to the Foreteller's and their animal symbols.

I'd call it more getting rid of a broken tool Xehanort saw no more use for.
That's the thing though, Ven and Vanitas are NOT two halves of the same coin. Vanitas originated from Ven, yes, but each of them has their own heart which, despite being connected, developed independent from each other.
The part of Ven's heart that formed the core of Vanitas' heart of Darkness was also decidedly less than half, only about a quarter as is seen in the missing part on Ven's blank and broken awakening in the Prologue.
Their hearts being made part of the X-blade is what sealed the mutual destruction part as Ven was determined to destroy that thing.

*facedesk* See what I said about forgetting details? I do it all the time too.

If anything, that incident was probably a shout-out to those who knew about the whole "Ven is in Sora's heart and Vanitas is kinda related" thing, considering that Vanitas just appears and disappears out of nowhere, and Sora has no explicit reaction to Vanitas whatsoever.

Then again, that could've been a "mild" case of what ended up happening in TWTNW. In the regular dream world, you might run into a "shout-out" every now and then, and you might not even notice it. Go all Inception on the dream layers, and those "shout-outs" will begin to manifest themselves as events that can be lived through, and tangible people capable of interaction. The most extreme example is probably when you actually become those people rather than just see them.

These things were actually also explained by Nomura (again not in the main game though, see a pattern?) and again somewhat vague in two different places:

— What about Vanitas?
Nomura: Vanitas is different than Xemnas and Ansem; he doesn’t necessarily have a physical form. He reacted to Ventus within Sora, so that’s how he was visible.

— Why did Xehanort and co. word things as if to try and wake Ventus who is inside Sora?
Nomura: They did so in order to tempt Sora’s heart and have it fall to the darkness. In the story it also talks about how abandoning the self leads to losing the heart. When you see Vanitas (the dark half of Ventus who appeared in KHBBS) overlay Young Xehanort for a moment, that represents Ventus’ heart reacting inside Sora.

I'll leave them just here without any interpretation or explanation from my side for now.