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Ballad of Caius

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Because they and their world always had focus in the numbered titles before, and this was a finale, so it made sense to expect them.
Also, Radiant Garden IS called the Capital of Light. It feels like this world should be a staple in every major entry. Plus this is where the element of FINAL FANTASY x Disney mixes as well.

It's funny how KH3 kept giving Radiant Garden more importance with Subject X and Isa's reports, on top of the importance it already has, but nothing was really done there. Hopefully this place gets the attention it deserves next time.
Hopefully we get a Luxigbar exchange with Ansem and the Apprentices.

But why would we have to return to Radiant Garden, like actually go there and explore?
Whatever Nomura comes up with.

Heartless are not there anymore,
It's not like Heartless can reappear, with impending threats like Maleficent and the Foretellers.

I think it's the same reason that Destiny Islands probably won't ever be playable again, but will be cutscene only.
Non-comparable.

I was bringing up the fact that the Final Fantasy gang can easily travel worlds to back up my point that the gang don't seem to care about Sora enough to join him in big fights.
Remember that you can't meddle in other worlds' affairs.
 

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But why would we have to return to Radiant Garden, like actually go there and explore?
I'm gonna include things that were RG centric before KH3, but:
- Aqua's Keyblade and armour
- Kairi training in RG and perhaps recovering her memories
- the myriad FF subplots

There's probably more I'm forgetting but that's just the stuff that wasn't even included in KH3. I fail to see how even with something as relatively small as Riku and Mickey going to RG specifically for their keyblades/information you don't see a reason for going to RG. what's the reason for going to Disney worlds? Find the power of waking?

Same excuse could have been used for RG, in fact it would have worked even better because they could have pulled some "maybe my friends can help!" bs. It's really odd to say something like this, and it's been repeated so often that many fans on reddit or twitter say something like this and just don't even consider the fact that it's wrong.

Why would you not want a part of KH that only adds value to the experience? Why would you even argue, not just for its replacement which I can understand, but it's outright removal with nothing better or on par to take its place.
 

Ballad of Caius

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I'm gonna include things that were RG centric before KH3, but:
- Aqua's Keyblade and armour
- Kairi training in RG and perhaps recovering her memories
- the myriad FF subplots

There's probably more I'm forgetting but that's just the stuff that wasn't even included in KH3. I fail to see how even with something as relatively small as Riku and Mickey going to RG specifically for their keyblades/information you don't see a reason for going to RG. what's the reason for going to Disney worlds? Find the power of waking?

Same excuse could have been used for RG, in fact it would have worked even better because they could have pulled some "maybe my friends can help!" bs. It's really odd to say something like this, and it's been repeated so often that many fans on reddit or twitter say something like this and just don't even consider the fact that it's wrong.

Why would you not want a part of KH that only adds value to the experience? Why would you even argue, not just for its replacement which I can understand, but it's outright removal with nothing better or on par to take its place.
I honestly have no hard time picturing one of the Guardians finding Subject X and bringing her back to Radiant Garden. This would cause Luxigbar to go after her, meaning that he's an impending threat if it happens.
 

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It was a setup for a salty joke. Final Fantasy characters pit you against XIII enemies FF Vs. XIII

I certainly enjoyed the humor

This. It’s things like this that keep me coming back for Nomura’s insanity. It amazes me sometimes how many layers there can be to his content.

I just hope that Verum Rex or whatever title is used to express what was meant to be in Versus XIII will do so in a satisfying way without throwing too much shade on XV or simply creating more questions than answers.

I’m indifferent to the FF characters in all honesty but, I will say that a precedent was set for them to have a meaningful involvement in the numbered titles and all of a sudden that is no longer the case. I’m not justifying it but I can definitely understand some of the expectations fans had for these characters, just to have them give some quick exposition in a DLC and no real reaction to thebattle that just took place that would have potentially ended everything. Nor the fact thatAnsem and co. are back and yet no acknowledgement of them running the place on his stead or all the mistakes that Ansem made that adversely affected the denizens of RG.
 

Face My Fears

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The only issue is that without a keyblade they should theoretically be restricted and stuck in theor own world after KH1 restored the barriers. Obviously KH2 muddies the waters by having them appear in the Coliseum, but we don't know if that's canon or even really them.

Also regarding Radiant Garden being heartless free, that's not guaranteed and the heartless do seem to show up there where the villains go post KH1, so if the world becomes of interested they can always be sent there.

With Destiny Island it's even implied in Days that Xion did missions there, so heartless had been appearing there in the a year post KH1.
Radiant Garden had Ienzo, Ansem The Wise, and Final Fantasy crew, and was the epicenter for darkness barely 2 years ago. If it wasn't under attack in KH3, I doubt anything else can prompt the heartless appearing.

Although maybe Tron's defense mechanism is what keeps the town safe? Everyone was salty over no FF being mentioned, but I was actually hoping for a Tron reference. His portal was seen in many scenes in KH3 and the computer was used, so he should have got a little something :'(
 

Elysium

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Personally, I wanted everything involved with RG. The Apprentices, the FF characters, Merlin, TRON, the castle restored, etc. The truth is it makes a much better home base than Twilight Town ever could be. Nothing happens at TT that constitutes its appearance in KH3, and yet it's there... More happens in the realm of darkness and the Land of Departure than TT. RG's absence is one of those decisions that doesn't make any sense at all, no matter how you choose to spin it.
 

Face My Fears

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Remember that you can't meddle in other worlds' affairs.
Yet Sora/Donald/Goofy do it all the time. Also when have the Final Fantasy gang cared about that or said it? On top of that, the affairs in the Keyblade Graveyard are different from the affairs in somewhere like Corona. Everyone at the Keyblade Graveyard knows about other worlds and travels to them all the time.
 

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Personally, I wanted everything involved with RG. The Apprentices, the FF characters, Merlin, TRON, the castle restored, etc. The truth is it makes a much better home base than Twilight Town ever could be. Nothing happens at TT that constitutes its appearance in KH3, and yet it's there... More happens in the realm of darkness and the Land of Departure than TT. RG's absence is one of those decisions that doesn't make any sense at all, no matter how you choose to spin it.
I remember being told off for saying that there's no way Twilight Town would be a good hub world about a month or so before release where it was looking increasingly unlikely that RG would return.

First of all look at the character connections in the two worlds:
Sora is intimately connected with Leon and Co. as they were the first people he met and they helped him, not just once but multiple times. They also helped Kairi out too for however short that period between Hollow Bastion and End of the World was.

Whereas Twilight Town, sure the kids are the same age as Sora, and they're all very fun to see on screen but the truth is the extent of Sora's relationship with them is limited to a few 4 minute long interactions. Sure they can be Sora's friends, but they themselves don't provide any of the wider knowledge that Merlin, Tron or Leon can. Kairi has more of a personal connection with these guys than Sora does.

Twilight Town is also only relevant to the plot in relation to Roxas, potentially Namine and Xion but that never ended up going anywhere (Really what's the point of such set up if the pay off is either non existent or weak) that doesn't mean it couldn't have had its own world plot running side by side with the main plot, like what RG was given in KH2.

But anyway, what I suppose it boils down to is whether as a fan of the KH series you're content with primarily Disney worlds, or the opposite. I hate to distill it to something so black and white but that's really what it seems like to me.
 

Face My Fears

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I remember being told off for saying that there's no way Twilight Town would be a good hub world about a month or so before release where it was looking increasingly unlikely that RG would return.

First of all look at the character connections in the two worlds:
Sora is intimately connected with Leon and Co. as they were the first people he met and they helped him, not just once but multiple times. They also helped Kairi out too for however short that period between Hollow Bastion and End of the World was.

Whereas Twilight Town, sure the kids are the same age as Sora, and they're all very fun to see on screen but the truth is the extent of Sora's relationship with them is limited to a few 4 minute long interactions. Sure they can be Sora's friends, but they themselves don't provide any of the wider knowledge that Merlin, Tron or Leon can. Kairi has more of a personal connection with these guys than Sora does.

Twilight Town is also only relevant to the plot in relation to Roxas, potentially Namine and Xion but that never ended up going anywhere (Really what's the point of such set up if the pay off is either non existent or weak) that doesn't mean it couldn't have had its own world plot running side by side with the main plot, like what RG was given in KH2.

But anyway, what I suppose it boils down to is whether as a fan of the KH series you're content with primarily Disney worlds, or the opposite. I hate to distill it to something so black and white but that's really what it seems like to me.
I mean I get where you're coming from, if you swap out Twilight Town for Radiant Garden and the plot that Hayner/Pence/Olette had with Leon/Yuffie/Aerith/Cid, it would have made more sense. Plus, having the Final Fantasy gang confront Ansem SoD holding Ansem The Wise (Radiant Garden's "king") hostage would at least give them some closure to the original KH1 plot. However, I feel that Twilight Town may be connected to KHUX stuff (the pegasus in the mansion and the fact that Ansem took Ansem The Wise there to find Girl X).

You could have also had Remy's Restaurant there (since Uncle Scrooge was already in Radiant Garden in KH2) and 100 Acre Wood in Merlin's House. Also Kairi could have returned there and maybe seen her childhood home or... parents?
 

AdrianXXII

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I mean I get where you're coming from, if you swap out Twilight Town for Radiant Garden and the plot that Hayner/Pence/Olette had with Leon/Yuffie/Aerith/Cid, it would have made more sense. Plus, having the Final Fantasy gang confront Ansem SoD holding Ansem The Wise (Radiant Garden's "king") hostage would at least give them some closure to the original KH1 plot. However, I feel that Twilight Town may be connected to KHUX stuff (the pegasus in the mansion and the fact that Ansem took Ansem The Wise there to find Girl X).

You could have also had Remy's Restaurant there (since Uncle Scrooge was already in Radiant Garden in KH2) and 100 Acre Wood in Merlin's House. Also Kairi could have returned there and maybe seen her childhood home or... parents?
Yeah most of the events of Twilight Town taking place in Radiant Gardin would have made more sense. Don't get me wrong returning to Twilight Town was nice, but they did little with the plot line there that'd make sense to explore for Roxas and everything else like the Bistro and Ansem would have fit better with Radiant Gardin.
 

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I'm with Oracle Spockanort when she says that Nomura and the team possibly lost more than a year of development for KINGDOM HEARTS III. I have the impression that Twilight Town as the hubworld wasn't a decision they wanted to make, but rather, that they had to make. I mean, the only reason TT is "hubworld-ish" is because Merlin and Scrooge are there, representing people from another world, and the always-running Little Chef quests for ingredients.

But as of now, I'm not seeing any of the potential games having a hubworld. If one of the next KHs is a DDD Volume 2 with Kairi and Riku, then it'll most likely work like DDD: no hubworld. Same goes for a possible BBS Vol.2: it'll be TAV going around the Realm of Darkness looking for clues for Sora's' whereabouts. Unless the game works in a way where they reach a point, designate that their meeting point, and they each go their separate ways for a while and then regroup and strategize.
 

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I love Twilight Town more then Radiant Garden (take a guess why) but I'll agree that TT did nothing of real importance in KH3 that Radiant Garden couldn't have done. The Bistro is cute but nothing to really write home about. And to really slap Twilight Town in the face, Roxas's body was delivered to Radiant Garden and not Twilight Town to be revived. Why didn't they pod him in the basement of the old mansion to come full circle from KH2 with Ansem the Wise reviving him? Twilight Town was not used as well as it could have been.

The most important bits of story that happen in TT is Vexen turning babyface and the Lea/Isa talk on the clocktower. Vexen's turn could have happened anywhere and his Radiant Garden cutscene with Demyx is better anyway. So only the Lea/Axel and Isa/Saix scene truly mattered in KH3, not counting the ending with Roxas with all his friends.
 

AdrianXXII

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I'm with Oracle Spockanort when she says that Nomura and the team possibly lost more than a year of development for KINGDOM HEARTS III. I have the impression that Twilight Town as the hubworld wasn't a decision they wanted to make, but rather, that they had to make. I mean, the only reason TT is "hubworld-ish" is because Merlin and Scrooge are there, representing people from another world, and the always-running Little Chef quests for ingredients.

But as of now, I'm not seeing any of the potential games having a hubworld. If one of the next KHs is a DDD Volume 2 with Kairi and Riku, then it'll most likely work like DDD: no hubworld. Same goes for a possible BBS Vol.2: it'll be TAV going around the Realm of Darkness looking for clues for Sora's' whereabouts. Unless the game works in a way where they reach a point, designate that their meeting point, and they each go their separate ways for a while and then regroup and strategize.
Yeah, the only things that mark TT as a hubworld of sorts is that it has the stores and you come back to it for Merlin. In theory you don't even have to return for the Bistro stuff seeing it's accessible from the save menu.

Come to think of it the more recent games haven't really had a in game hubworld. The closest we've got in 3D and KH3 is Yen Sid's Tower and that was all cutscenes and not an actual world we could visit and do things on. Guess the series has been kinda moving away from having a playable hubworld since BBS actually.
 

Face My Fears

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I mean the whole "hubworld" thing was because in KH1 you had to return to Traverse Town to purchase items, synthesize, unlock summons, and move story elements forward. It made sense in KH1 because Sora was new to all of this and the state of the entire universe was a disaster. KH2 had moogles in every world so you could buy items and synthesize wherever; Radiant Garden was just the best pick of world to have multiple events go down because of history from KH1 and the connections to the Organization. But the thing is... I don't consider Radiant Garden a "hubworld" like Traverse Town was. I see it as an original world which -- of course -- had main story elements unfold there, just like Twilight Town was in KH2. I think the only true "hubworld" in KH was Traverse Town in KH1 because in that game there were things you can only do in Traverse Town. Now you can visit the bistro, synthesize, and buy items in any world. In KH2 you could have done the same, you didn't need to revisit Radiant Garden.

I think the question is do we need a hubworld anymore in the KH series? A world that we have to keep going back to in order to advance the plot? I don't mind visiting original worlds and having the story unfold there and moving on, but with the Gummiphone and the impatience of players/convenience demanded by players nowadays, I don't think a hubworld where you have to visit in order to do certain things will be met with a positive reaction. Imagine if in KH3 you HAD to go to Twilight Town to synthesize or visit the bistro or buy items, how would modern day gamers react to that.

Anyway, I digress. I think it would be nice to introduce more Final Fantasy characters in Disney worlds, especially ones that don't have Disney bosses that can "fight" (or are allowed to). Imagine if the Stabbington Brothers were replaced by some Final Fantasy character and that person was the last boss of Corona instead of a giant heartless?
 

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The only time FF characters have appeared in Disney worlds has been with Olympus Coliseum and not even there in KH3. Considering Disney is more restrictive now, they're even less likely to appear in random Disney worlds going forward. It's in original worlds like Radiant Garden or nada.
 

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It's late and I'm tired and wanted to save this for tomorrow but I'm busy then so may as well have a good crack at it now

But the thing is... I don't consider Radiant Garden a "hubworld" like Traverse Town was. I see it as an original world which -- of course -- had main story elements unfold there, just like Twilight Town was in KH2. I think the only true "hubworld" in KH was Traverse Town in KH1 because in that game there were things you can only do in Traverse Town.

You basically answer your own question as to why KH1 was so different with regards to synthesis and shops later on, but I think it's a little reaching to say that a hub world is purely a place where you're forced to go to do *things*. I don't think that's true at all. Of course I do think it should have that something extra that sets it apart, normally it's Winnie the Pooh, and some extra shops, which is more than enough for me.

More importantly though a hubworld to me is something that "feels" like home. Leon, Yuffie, Cid and Aerith feel like Sora's friends and mentors, it feels right to check in on them periodically, because that's what someone like Sora would do. It also doesn't hurt the sheer amount of side plot stuff that RG has going on.
More importantly, the characters themselves provide some of the best and most interesting interactions with Sora which just further cements the feeling of belonging that a hubworld is suppose to invoke.

I think the question is do we need a hubworld anymore in the KH series? A world that we have to keep going back to in order to advance the plot?
Yes, yes, a hundred thousand times YES. The answer should never be a No. Just because recent KH games have moved away from this does not make it okay. Its telling that DDD and KH3 are as polarising as they are. Of course it would be remiss of me to say that's down to the lack of a hub world, that's not the root cause at all, but they are still problems and they correlate with my point.

A world that is deeply connected to the lore and to the characters, whether historically or over the course of the game like Traverse Town originally was, a world where you can go to have a breather, relax and enjoy the views, a world that consistently matters, is always highly preferable to have.

What's the difference between periodic visits to a hubworld that expand the world every visit and constant romps through disney worlds? One of these gives me a lot more enjoyment than the other personally. It's not like I can traipse through radiant garden in any other game which isn't the case for a lot of disney films, I can only have that experience through KH. It's disheartening to see fans so willing to throw out almost everything that makes KH for....? More Disney worlds or something? I'm not entirely sure what a suitable replacement would be.
but with the Gummiphone and the impatience of players/convenience demanded by players nowadays, I don't think a hubworld where you have to visit in order to do certain things will be met with a positive reaction.
Again, what's the difference between going to a hubworld to unlock certain events and going through disney worlds to get to the end of the game? This argument in particular makes very little sense to me, it's not like the RG episodes in KH2 were strictly formulaic. And as for your point about gummiphones and new players, well frankly it's not an issue. I'd say if you gave KH fans the opportunity to visit RG themselves or to just have Ienzo espouse exposition from a facetime call, I think it's safe to say that the former would be the clear winner.

Gummiphone interactions are boring and ruin the fact that as a person playing a game, you should be experiencing these things first hand, not through a screen in a screen. Also I'm not paying £60 for convenience. KH games have almost always been geared towards fans, with the exception of KH3 and its weird half and half nature. I'd go as far as to say when it comes to these things appearing in KH, F*ck the casuals, they don't appreciate what makes this series so unique. And anyway, there's no need to gear KH towards players who won't give it the time of day until it changes itself completely to fit their image of a good game
 

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It's late and I'm tired and wanted to save this for tomorrow but I'm busy then so may as well have a good crack at it now



You basically answer your own question as to why KH1 was so different with regards to synthesis and shops later on, but I think it's a little reaching to say that a hub world is purely a place where you're forced to go to do *things*. I don't think that's true at all. Of course I do think it should have that something extra that sets it apart, normally it's Winnie the Pooh, and some extra shops, which is more than enough for me.

More importantly though a hubworld to me is something that "feels" like home. Leon, Yuffie, Cid and Aerith feel like Sora's friends and mentors, it feels right to check in on them periodically, because that's what someone like Sora would do. It also doesn't hurt the sheer amount of side plot stuff that RG has going on.
More importantly, the characters themselves provide some of the best and most interesting interactions with Sora which just further cements the feeling of belonging that a hubworld is suppose to invoke.


Yes, yes, a hundred thousand times YES. The answer should never be a No. Just because recent KH games have moved away from this does not make it okay. Its telling that DDD and KH3 are as polarising as they are. Of course it would be remiss of me to say that's down to the lack of a hub world, that's not the root cause at all, but they are still problems and they correlate with my point.

A world that is deeply connected to the lore and to the characters, whether historically or over the course of the game like Traverse Town originally was, a world where you can go to have a breather, relax and enjoy the views, a world that consistently matters, is always highly preferable to have.

What's the difference between periodic visits to a hubworld that expand the world every visit and constant romps through disney worlds? One of these gives me a lot more enjoyment than the other personally. It's not like I can traipse through radiant garden in any other game which isn't the case for a lot of disney films, I can only have that experience through KH. It's disheartening to see fans so willing to throw out almost everything that makes KH for....? More Disney worlds or something? I'm not entirely sure what a suitable replacement would be.
Again, what's the difference between going to a hubworld to unlock certain events and going through disney worlds to get to the end of the game? This argument in particular makes very little sense to me, it's not like the RG episodes in KH2 were strictly formulaic. And as for your point about gummiphones and new players, well frankly it's not an issue. I'd say if you gave KH fans the opportunity to visit RG themselves or to just have Ienzo espouse exposition from a facetime call, I think it's safe to say that the former would be the clear winner.

Gummiphone interactions are boring and ruin the fact that as a person playing a game, you should be experiencing these things first hand, not through a screen in a screen. Also I'm not paying £60 for convenience. KH games have almost always been geared towards fans, with the exception of KH3 and its weird half and half nature. I'd go as far as to say when it comes to these things appearing in KH, F*ck the casuals, they don't appreciate what makes this series so unique. And anyway, there's no need to gear KH towards players who won't give it the time of day until it changes itself completely to fit their image of a good game
I'm not against hubworlds, but I'm just questioning their value in future KH installments. In KH2, Radiant Garden made sense as a "hubworld" because so many things connected to it from KH1. In KH3, the only connection was that Ienzo was in the lab working. I'm all for face-to-face conversations between the characters over Gummiphone conversations, but it just seems kind of pointless -- development wise -- to create a whole world for just shops and conversations in a lab. With that said, it feels like if the world would be playable/explorable, then they would force story elements to happen there. That's pretty apparent with Twilight Town where they shoved the bistro, shops, 100 Acre Wood, and Hayner/Pence/Olette confronting Ansem. All of those things could have happened in Radiant Garden, but I'm guessing that Twilight Town was already done and the development schedule just didn't permit them the time to expand on any other world to put those things.

So that brings me back to whether a hubworld is useful in the KH series... I think that story should come first before deciding that some original world becomes a hubworld (even Disney Castle could be a hubworld). If there's a legit story reason why a world should be a hub, then I'm all for it. Traverse Town and Radiant Garden served their purpose in KH1 and 2, but KH3 didn't need a hubworld. KH3 needed a middle part of the story. Making Radiant Garden or any other world the hubworld in KH3 wouldn't have fixed that issue. Any world could have served for the middle portion of the story to take place, but the issue was that it wasn't there.

And regarding what I meant by convenience -- I don't think that players want to find a save point, load up the gummi screen, then load up the hub world, then run to wherever the shops are or the synthesis location is to buy stuff/synthesize. Maybe back in the early 2000s that would fly, but I don't think modern players would be interested in spending maybe 5-10 minutes just to buy a potion, then take another 5 minutes to go back to where they were. So what would be the point of the world that has shops, if you can just buy them from Moogles in whatever world you're in.
 

Elysium

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Radiant Garden is the hub world in KH2 and also operates as its midpoint. It's also the midpoint for BbS although I'd say LoD operates more as a hub if any of them do. Traverse Town in 3D operates similar to its role in KH1 and RG's in 2, as it's also the midpoint and the only world you return to. Perhaps they couldn't think of anything to do with Twilight Town at the midpoint in 3 aside from a brief Winnie the Pooh visit; that would make it a poor choice for hub world.

Twilight Town might make sense going post-3 now so many characters are in there, but it didn't really work for 3. I still see Radiant Garden's absence as less because it had nothing to do with the story and more a case of Nomura's bitterness over FFXV coming at KH's expense.
 
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Face My Fears

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Radiant Garden is the hub world in KH2 and also operates as its midpoint. It's also the midpoint for BbS although I'd say LoD operates more as a hub if any of them do. Traverse Town in 3D operates similar to its role in KH1 and RG's in 2, as it's also the midpoint and the only world you return to. Perhaps they couldn't think of anything to do with Twilight Town at the midpoint in 3 aside from a brief Winnie the Pooh visit; that would make it a poor choice for hub world.

Twilight Town might make sense going post-3 now so many characters are in there, but it didn't really work for 3. I still see Radiant Garden's absence as less because it had nothing to do with the story and more a case of Nomura's bitterness over FFXV coming at KH's expense.
I definitely feel like the FF characters being excluded in KH3 was somewhat bitterness by Nomura, but also development/time issues. I believe it probably ended up being a time crunch and Nomura had to decide what to cut and due to his feelings about FF at the time, the choice was pretty clear.

Do you not see how intrinsically linked these two things are?
The story should dictate the hubworld. Honestly, going into KH3 (like from when it was announced years ago) I didn't expect Radiant Garden to be playable or to even visit there. I saw the story as done there, although I did expect to see Leon and the gang in some capacity (I assumed they would join the Keyblade War battle). Since they showed Twilight Town early on and was hinting to Roxas/Xion's return in several of the side games, I believed that a lot of the main story stuff would happen in Twilight Town (and thus it would become a hubworld, so to speak). They could have easily had Ienzo working in Twilight Town's mansion with Hayner/Pence/Olette, maybe even give him his own goal of finding Ansem The Wise. He could have been there when Ansem brought back Ansem to Twilight Town and helped save him with the Twilight Town gang.

Referencing what I said above, I think Nomura was intending more of Radiant Garden to be in KH3, but issues caused him to cut it. Ultimately, I don't care which world is the hubworld, all I care about is that Nomura works on pacing the games better and actually have a beginning, middle, and end. KH3's main storytelling issue was that it was just beginning and end. The world where the midpoint happens doesn't matter. It could be a Disney world (why not?)
 
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