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Final Fantasy in Kingdom Hearts



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2 quid is good

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When I say that the series outgrew it, I mean it in that Nomura introduced 50 characters that all still are woefully underdeveloped which left very little room for him to work with FF characters because he is clearly incapable of handling too many characters. The series has outgrown it because Nomura has made it outgrow it. Does that make sense?
Ahh sorry for misunderstanding, I took it to mean that KH had no use for them anymore which I obviously don't agree with. And yeah, I do see your point, in fact it's another issue I have.

Nomura could have easily culled the cast between BBS and DDD, heck even after DDD he didn't need to bring back Luxord, Demyx etc. But it feels like he just can't let go. As much as I like Demyx and Larxene and the energy they bring, I don't think there was any particular part of me desperately wanting them to resolve an arc like I do with Leon or Zack.

That's not conclusive proof. Letter could be from anyone.
Pfffffffffft

I mean if you really want proof so bad you can hear it from the horse's mouth itself. Nomura explicitly says it's from Rinoa in the KH2 ultimania.
 
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welken

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One aspect FF can bring to Kingdom Hearts better than anything from Disney, is infinite mythic potential. Basically every creature and god to ever not-exist, exist within the worlds of Final Fantasy. It's a true fantasia, merging world mythology with it's own legends. Disney's Hercules just doesn't have that eminence. Gilgamesh, Alexander, Bahamut, chocobos, Kefka, everything, all of it ripe as ever to get a whimsical coat of paint and join the parade. Villains especially should all be intermingling as dark wizards do, Disney, FF and original. A classic "four heroes of light" quest would be a cool format for a game, or even a full party you accumulate throughout the story, bringing characters from different worlds with you to the end.
The existing FF characters in KH have also been very grounding, they provide a home away from home, and are just cool people to have hanging around. Even in casual roles, they have a strong presence. Fighting them at the colosseum was an epic feature, and made the universe feel more connected and active.

Ideally, KH wouldn't need any of this. But as of now, the world-building is rickety and the original cast is oddly austere for such vibrant games, perhaps because most of them are brain-scrambled henchmen and puppets waiting for their purpose. A potent reinjection of ffantastic ffinality might fill in the creases. I'm interested in how the Yozora business unfolds. If KH becomes the vessel for Nomura's Versus daydreams, maybe that's all the better, if that's where his passion is.
 

Face My Fears

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What a missed opportunity to not have Tidus, Selphie and Wakka be mentioned by Riku.
I totally forgot about them at the beach party until like 6 months after I beat KH3 and remembered that they played on the island too. I guess they're serious about world order... minus everyone on the beach that wasn't from Destiny Islands.
 

SweetYetSalty

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I totally forgot about them at the beach party until like 6 months after I beat KH3 and remembered that they played on the island too. I guess they're serious about world order... minus everyone on the beach that wasn't from Destiny Islands.
Same. I actually forgot these three even existed until reading the Final Fantasy complaints on KH3. I wouldn't have expected them at the beach party anyway, but I guess you could have had them like in the background or something. HPO pretty much replaced them.
 

FudgemintGuardian

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It's clear how Final Fantasy characters have been implemented in KH is different from how most Disney properties have. Always being treated more as original characters with an FF skin with involvement to the main story, despite how Nomura, and some fans, ignore this merely because of the origins of those characters.


FF, and SE properties in general, brings a certain magic and liveliness to KH that Disney/Pixar are incapable of. Not only because the two are vastly different from each other in terms of atmosphere and implementation, but Disney's outright refusal to have their characters touch the plot, save for a handful. FF does what Disney don't. And Disney doesn't do a lot in the grand scheme of things, yet takes up SO MUCH TIME that would be much better spent on the evergrowing original characters and narrative.

Kingdom Hearts has outgrown Disney.

It's not like the first game, where there was a very simple (and clean~) main plot that allowed the room for Disney worlds of various relevance taking up most of the game. The main narrative keeps growing and growing, but the Disney side hasn't adapted to that in all this time.

Final Fantasy and TWEWY, though? They exist for the narrative, not to shove it aside.

I find Nomura's stance on FF....strange and wholly ignorant, especially with him adding in TWEWY and Not-Versus XIII.

EDIT:
Forgot the final point I was trying to make here. XD (It's super short, don't worry.)

Basically, having FF characters around, the way they've been used, and being side by side with Disney is a very special magic that can't be replicated anywhere else and only benefits Kingdom Hearts. I have no clue what FF's future in KH will be, so all I can hope is they at least stay involved like they have in the past.
 
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kirabook

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I made a similar comment in another thread but:
Leon? Yuffie? Aerith? Cid? Etc etc? My first introduction to them EVER was in Kingdom Hearts. At the time, I had no idea what Final Fantasy was. To this day, the only FF games I play or know even a little about is X and X-2, neither of which I finished (I get stuck a lot, I kinda suck to be honest)

For me, they are not cameos where Sora plays out their side stories and then we move on forever and it never gets brought up again. All the FF characters are basically original characters. They found Sora first when he was lost and confused and protected him. They all treat him like their silly little brother even though he's saved the world multiple times. They feel like they are a part of KH for me.

I was saddened to hear they wouldn't be in KH3. I thought, "Maybe they can get away with it kinda", but by the end of the game, their absence is so... staggering. The FF characters were always like... a mid point. When they got involved, the main plot was about to jump ahead a few leaps.

KH3 didn't feel like it had that midpoint. It was Disney ---> Main story. Compared to other games, it was more like Disney --> Main story --> Disney --> Main story.

With the DLC, it seems like maybe they realized they can't just ditch Final Fantasy after all. Like, I hope they embrace the idea that these FF characters are basically OCs just like all the rest of the KH characters and in no way should they feel tied to their original properties. They should have fun with the AU concept, just like World of Final Fantasy in a way, and let it happen.
 
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Sephiroth0812

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Nomura could have easily culled the cast between BBS and DDD, heck even after DDD he didn't need to bring back Luxord, Demyx etc. But it feels like he just can't let go. As much as I like Demyx and Larxene and the energy they bring, I don't think there was any particular part of me desperately wanting them to resolve an arc like I do with Leon or Zack.

Strictly spoken Nomura did "cull the cast" by throwing out the FF characters in order to make room for his own OCs. The "restoration committee" was seen as superfluous in Radiant Garden now because they have the redeemed Ansem the Wise, Ienzo, Even, Dilan and Aeleus back to run things there and serve as guides as well as scientific assistance to the major core characters.

The further I get in KH III (and nope, I still haven't finished it, despite Corona I can work in home office), the more I get the vibe that Nomura was on a "trip"/attempt to generally cut or throw aside the "old" Kingdom Hearts and make a transition to a "new" one that better suits his current interests and ideas.
It is most striking with the introduction of so many new elements be them from the UX era/universe, the worldline "hub" of Scala ad Caelum or the whole almost new "sub-universe" surrounding Yozora getting so much focus and "advertisement" that the actual main purpose of KH III to serve as a conclusion to the current saga and the past stories and arcs connected to it comes over as almost playing second fiddle.
Most of the original characters still getting almost no attention to their personal arcs and characterisation apart from a few one liners right before or during the crammed final battles also point towards this which the DLC I admit manages to rectify only barely.
At least that's my observation so far, conclusions were undoubtedly committed, but it feels like it was more done to finally get the baggage out of the way rather than actual interest to create a meaningful and engaging continuation of the plot threads that were introduced in the games before KH III.
Nomura cares apparently more about playing around with concepts and his current ideas and interests than actually have the KH series having a coherent internal universe.

And this all of course also affects the FF cameos who as a "relic" of the old Kingdom Hearts might be (for Nomura and his current plans and interests) no longer an asset but an annoyance. Weren't there voices among the development team that advocated for still including the FF cameos as well that got shot down?
 

FudgemintGuardian

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I made a similar comment in another thread but:
Leon? Yuffie? Aerith? Cid? Etc etc? My first introduction to them EVER was in Kingdom Hearts. At the time, I had no idea what Final Fantasy was. To this day, the only FF games I play or know even a little about is X and X-2, neither of which I finished (I get stuck a lot, I kinda suck to be honest)

For me, they are not cameos where Sora plays out their side stories and then we move on forever and it never gets brought up again. All the FF characters are basically original characters. They found Sora first when he was lost and confused and protected him. They all treat him like their silly little brother even though he's saved the world multiple times. They feel like they are a part of KH for me.

I was saddened to hear they wouldn't be in KH3. I thought, "Maybe they can get away with it kinda", but by the end of the game, their absence is so... staggering. The FF characters were always like... a mid point. When they got involved, the main plot was about to jump ahead a few leaps.

KH3 didn't feel like it had that midpoint. It was Disney ---> Main story. Compared to other games, it was more like Disney --> Main story --> Disney --> Main story.

With the DLC, it seems like maybe they realized they can't just ditch Final Fantasy after all. Like, I hope they embrace the idea that these FF characters are basically OCs just like all the rest of the KH characters and in no way should they feel tied to their original properties. They should have fun with the AU concept, just like World of Final Fantasy in a way, and let it happen.
Exactly on all points, and that's my hope as well. Similarly to you, when I first got into KH waaaaay back in the day, while I knew of Final Fantasy and Cloud and Sephiroth, it wasn't like I had some kind of attachment or any real knowledge of the franchise.

I was going to say that maybe because of that, I never saw the FF characters as cameos but as original characters, but I also see characters like Goofy and Yen Sid and even Scrooge as more like original characters with a Disney skin. We certainly can't lump them in the same category as Peter Pan or Olaf.
If the FF cast really were intended as cameos, then they never should have been used in the story as they have been.

There's a large, FF-shaped hole in KH3 that the original Radiant Garden characters can't fill, and it's clear Nomura doesn't want to use THEM either.

And having the Disney worlds be one long stretch does them no favors. The lack of any real break in-between makes them a chore to go through and just makes me want to finish them as fast as possible.

Edit:
Nomura cares apparently more about playing around with concepts and his current ideas and interests than actually have the KH series having a coherent internal universe.
And then Nomura will eventually be bored with his current ideas, too, because it's all flash, no substance. Maybe if Nomura actually developed his ideas and interests, he wouldn't grow so tired of them...
 
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Blackrazor187

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We've seen 7,8 and 10 of Final Fantasy only one character from 9 did appeared and the shopkeepers named Biggs,Wedge and Barret are just coinicdences theres' no way they could be those characters.
XV Characters are more likely to appear in future installments and Lighting was only a cameo i believe for union.
Shame they didn't bring in Cecil or Cain.
 

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If you read KH1's Ultimania, KH didn't start internally as a Final Fantasy X Disney project.
Final Fantasy characters were not planned to be in the game from the beginning.
What happened according to Nomura, was that as they were making the game, they needed various characters to serve specific roles in the story, for example destiny island needed more people, kids to have Sora play/train with and interact and traverse town needed some characters too.

He thought of creating original characters for these roles but he changed his mind because he thought that they wouldn't get much screentime and it would be a waste to create brand new characters only to have them show up in the game 2 or 3 minutes each. That's how he thought of bringing in FF characters which had already established personalities and backgrounds, people would know who they are etc etc.

So Nomura never really felt strong attachment to the inclusion of FF characters in KH to begin with, it just happened because of necessity at the time.

For KH3 in his gamespot interview a few weeks before the release of KH3 he said that he did have the team create HD character models of some FF characters just in case, but as he was writing the story he couldn't find a way to organically have them play a part in it.
There were too many plot points for the original cast of KH that had to be wrapped up and FF characters simply had no place and he couldn't justify their involvement since their arc had ended in KH2.

He proceeded to say that he personally did not think that fans would be so attached to the FF characters in a KH game so much because back when KH was first being made there weren't that many games that had cameos of FF characters but now the circumstances are different and FF characters appear in various games such as WoFF and Dissidia, which is why he thought it wouldn't be a big deal.

The most important part of this interview is that he ends up saying he regrets his decision, because in the last couple of years everyone keeps asking him about the FF characters, this led him to reconsider and realize that "FF characters might be important to KH after all."

Based on that, i think he will find a way to implement them in the future. Re:Mind shoehorned them in just to please the dissatisfied fanbase and i think he learned his lesson and realized that for the KH fans, FF cameos are important.

So i don't think that Nomura was intentionally phasing the FF characters out because he wanted to change the direction of KH, it was simply a case of not understanding that fans felt strongly about FF characters and he simply prioritized other things. He made it clear that he realized this was a mistake even before KH3 released. So i don't think there is a reason to worry so much, at least not yet.
 

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I just hope the next game we get more original worlds, and a chance to fully go through Radiant Garden and its castle. That is legit my favorite location in KHBBS and KH2. The amount of hours I spent there in KH2 is insane and it’s such a great world! And it was cool seeing its evolution from KH1
 

rokudamia2

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I think we may see a few cameos here and there but, I think we won't be seeing a lot of them. Part of me thinks Nomura thought there were too many ff characters in kh2 and honestly I kinda agree.
 

DraceEmpressa

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I thought the fact that DDD has TWEWY chars settle it that KH isn't FF X Disney, but SE X Disney. That being said, who knows if they are gonna be relevant again. the Verum Rex worlds seem to be a good choice for it.
 

Elysium

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I think we may see a few cameos here and there but, I think we won't be seeing a lot of them. Part of me thinks Nomura thought there were too many ff characters in kh2 and honestly I kinda agree.
I think that exacerbated the fan outrage. They went from 100 to 0 in no time at all. Personally, I think the FF characters have enriched every world they've been a part of. Twilight Town in 3 was less without Seifer, imo. And I would've liked to see FF characters in other Disney worlds aside from just the Coliseum. YRP would've been great in KH2 Agrabah instead of Radiant Garden, for example--digging for treasure. Perhaps SDG could've fought with them over something in the Cave of Wonders to give to the peddler.

To me, their absence in 3 just makes that game feel a little hollow at the end as the credits roll. Them being absent in BbS is disappointing--mostly because it's another way BbS fails to deliver as a satisfying prologue because it doesn't show things we've heard about through conversation and would like to have seen--but the game doesn't feel off without them because ATV aren't personally connected to Leon, Yuffie, etc. the way SDG are. BbS feels hollow for other reasons--mostly poor characters, lack of party members, and empty worlds.
 

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This convo. Personally, in regards to relevance, I think the Final Fantasy characters is on the same benched sidelines as the Disney characters. They're all just casualties dropped in place of the anime ocs. Though you have to admire the decision on adding the HBRC despite how...VERY little they had to do with Re:Mind, and they're...really just an excuse to introduce data battles. Unfortunately, it'll probably be a one-time thing.
 

Raz

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It costs Nomura and the writers nothing to incorporate fun and interesting Final Fantasy cameos. I enjoy the fact that they are the same characters with the same personalities but adapted to the world of Kingdom Hearts with new motivations.

What happened in Radiant Garden with the Restoration Committee in KHIII prior to Re:Mind was a palpable absence.

Super disappointed they've been sidelined but there ain't much that isn't disappointing with the direction of the series lately.
 
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