Fate Without God?

[Mordecai]

I was having a discussion with two of my friends. The topic was fate. Basically, my first friend said he believed in fate, but not God. My second friend said that that was impossible.

My second friend stated that it was impossible to believe in fate without a higher being, because if you didn't believe in a higher being, then there wouldn't be any fate for anyone. There would be no being to control it.

However, my first friend replied simply with, fate isn't constructed or maintained by a higher being - it's the set plan of everything and falls in to place depending on how the universe balances every action.

Heres what I was thinking - my first friend said plan. That would mean that something would have to map out fate, correct? Equality in the universe couldn't determine what was going to happen without a plan, and this plan would need something to maintain, control, and construct it. Or would it be plausible that fate could be set just as a specific line of events or things that happen as a part of every action that you make? The universe somehow corresponds with what you do, but knows ( forgive the personification and vague explanation here ) what you're doing next? I, for one, kind of agree with the second friend. There would need to be something that controlled fate and created it in the first place. So it would be pretty silly to believe in fate without a higher being ( God being the example ).

Thoughts?

---

For future argument, I placed this in intel and not the religious section because it isn't focusing on religion, but fate. Mentioning a higher being doesn't mean that this follows any religion.

 

[giuocob]

There's a word for this belief. I want to say Absolutism, but I know that's not it. Anyway, this can be pretty much summed up by the belief that the actions of all living things (and non-living things as well, so basically, the Universe) can be predicted on some level by simple mathematics. The thought process is this: all actions of living things reduce to biology, all biology reduces to chemistry, all chemistry reduces to physics, and all physics reduces to a set of logical paths which can be predicted and calculated with 100% accuracy when given all the necessary data. Certainly, the factors that would be involved in 'calculating' a human being are so numerous that trying to do so would be preposterous, but this is simply the belief that it can happen. So, your first friend was right: belief in a deity is not essential to having this kind of mindset. You can decide for yourself what you think of the actual argument.

 

[Hidden]

All excellent points, but there are also further considerations.

Leaving the Abrahamic tradition and thought, fate can take on a larger role than a deity's decisions over and affecting mankind. In Greco-Roman mythology and even moreso in Norse mythology, fate as a force can act as inevitably upon the gods as upon man, though the gods may seem to have more agency in the matter than us (for one matter, some gods are able to foresee this destiny and therefore act upon it, though they may not change it). And of course, when fate dictates even the course of the gods, the call on a "higher intelligence" is seemingly left unanswered.

There are, to note, the figures of the Fates and the Norns (Greek and Norse mythology respectively) who are generally characterized as one to three females (interesting note for a masculine-dominated pantheon) that are the goddesses of this fate. But they are not necessarily active, intelligent agents that decide on individual whim what fate will be, but rather personifications of that fate as a force; the fact that their names are attached to this force gives a sense of that.

A view of fate, then, is simply as a force that could be considered in much the same way as a "natural force;" the cause of it is inconsequential against the effect. Why objects of mass are drawn to each other (gravitational force) has no effect upon its inevitability; fate, then, is a very specified force, both much more intricate and powerful than its comparison, but fundamentally of the same order as gravity (natural and supernatural cast aside as terms)--note, in this, it sounds similar to giuocob's argument, but it is not empirical nor based on past phenomena, as that argument would seem to be. It acts beyond simple cause-and-effect.

That's one thought.

 

[Forever Atlas]

Fate (i must bring out first is that i dont believe in it) however its an inevitable and often adverse outcome. Fatalism is the belief that all events are determined by the divine will or by some force greater than man, that every event must take place as it does because it has been predetermined.

Because of the word predetermined, that means that someone had already planned it out, or given it forethought.

i get where your friend is coming from, but i personally dont think it would work out that way, the concept of fate is that it was planned, in other words, someone or something with conciousness and a mind had mapped it out.

 

[Mordecai]

Fate (i must bring out first is that i dont believe in it) however its an inevitable and often adverse outcome. Fatalism is the belief that all events are determined by the divine will or by some force greater than man, that every event must take place as it does because it has been predetermined.

Because of the word predetermined, that means that someone had already planned it out, or given it forethought.

i get where your friend is coming from, but i personally dont think it would work out that way, the concept of fate is that it was planned, in other words, someone or something with conciousness and a mind had mapped it out.

This is what I was thinking. However, fate as a force makes sense also. Really, I suppose this wouldn't be open for extreme discussion, since no one can prove fate even exists, nor what exactly would make it exist. But there are some interesting thoughts, for sure.

 

[The Twilight Prince]

I really like this thread. Mainly because I consider myself to be one who believes in fate and don't myself believe in a higher being. I would say I agree with whichever friend said that fate could exist without one. Because I personally have always thought that "fate" was controlled in a sense by the planet itself. Because I know there's something with the space time continuum and how if time travel were possible, it would stop anything from happening that didn't or wasn't supposed to happen at the time. As in the whole grandfather paradox. If you went back to kill your grandfather, the space time continuum wouldn't allow it because it wasn't supposed to happen.

Assuming that's correct, then fate could very well happen without a higher being. Because anything that isn't supposed to happen, won't. Which also means that anything that IS supposed to still will, whether a higher being exists or not. Put simply, fate is controlled by the planet itself, or a power we can't see or know about. And no that doesn't mean a "being". It's like psychic abilities yknow?

 

[Garth]

Fate as a force seems to make just as much sense to me as fate decided by some sort of divine-being. It's even interesting to think about the idea that whatever did spark the universe also set a series of events in motion, all of which are inevitable, and all of which produce results that have already been set into motion, and cannot be altered in any way. These events should not be confused, however, with the simple decisions we make on a daily basis (What should I have for breakfast? Should I skip school today? What does this button do?).

Rather, the events already set into motion are happening on a much higher plane.

Or maybe we're all just crazy. D:

 

[frisson]

There's a word for this belief. I want to say Absolutism, but I know that's not it. Anyway, this can be pretty much summed up by the belief that the actions of all living things (and non-living things as well, so basically, the Universe) can be predicted on some level by simple mathematics. The thought process is this: all actions of living things reduce to biology, all biology reduces to chemistry, all chemistry reduces to physics, and all physics reduces to a set of logical paths which can be predicted and calculated with 100% accuracy when given all the necessary data. Certainly, the factors that would be involved in 'calculating' a human being are so numerous that trying to do so would be preposterous, but this is simply the belief that it can happen. So, your first friend was right: belief in a deity is not essential to having this kind of mindset. You can decide for yourself what you think of the actual argument.

I feel more inclined to gravitate toward this notion.

In the sense that, your actions inevitably "lock" yourself and others into a specific outcome. I just never really considered that the outcome could be properly (though complexly) calculated, thus establishing a predetermination of sorts.

 

[Mordecai]

I really like this thread. Mainly because I consider myself to be one who believes in fate and don't myself believe in a higher being. I would say I agree with whichever friend said that fate could exist without one. Because I personally have always thought that "fate" was controlled in a sense by the planet itself. Because I know there's something with the space time continuum and how if time travel were possible, it would stop anything from happening that didn't or wasn't supposed to happen at the time. As in the whole grandfather paradox. If you went back to kill your grandfather, the space time continuum wouldn't allow it because it wasn't supposed to happen.

Assuming that's correct, then fate could very well happen without a higher being. Because anything that isn't supposed to happen, won't. Which also means that anything that IS supposed to still will, whether a higher being exists or not. Put simply, fate is controlled by the planet itself, or a power we can't see or know about. And no that doesn't mean a "being". It's like psychic abilities yknow?

Just because ( speaking theoretically ) the space time continuum wouldn't allow changes to be made out of the past, since the events have already been embedded in time, wouldn't mean that it would determine what would happen next. In fact, it kind of supports the opposite.

I almost went on a long circular logic rant. Good thing I didn't. Anyway, I'm tired. :\ I'll reply to this tomorrow or something, lol.

 

[Thor.]

For Fate to exist there has to be some underlying "force" about the world. A force that draws together fated couples or make a father that is fated to lose his son drive off absent-mindedly.

The point being that the idea of Fate is that we do not controll our own actions. So to beleive in fate you have to beleive in some kind of universal power (not nessecarily God, or a concious being, maybe just some interconnecting force that draws things to be the way they are "fated")

 

[Dant?s de Divinity]

As you manipulate the things around you the chance that a certain thing will happen to you some time in the future either becomes more plausible or implausible. As you keeping manipulating things in the same way or some what of the same way the reaction to that manipulation will be more and more fixed and unavoidable. There is no such thing as fate only greater chances of possibility. If you think God exists like I do then that's your free will he gave you (The ability to do what you wish with out his interaction to stop you or convince you to keep doing something) If you don't think God exists then it’s the logical outcome of your actions not fate. Free will from God and arrogance or goal is what makes something happen not fate.

 

[Akans]

There's a word for this belief. I want to say Absolutism, but I know that's not it....

It's called Hard Determinism.
The belief for this is that, if a physicist was given all the laws of the Universe, and the state of the Universe in a certain time, he/she can predict where every single atom moves with utmost accuracy, because all atoms/physics follow unbreakable laws. These laws cannot be broken, and so, whatever you do has already been determined.

If you say you have "free will" and you lifted your arm right now because you wanted to, a Hard Determinist can say that it is because you just read the atoms on the screen, which incited atoms in your brain, which would then incite you to move the atoms to raise your arm. What if you "could have" but didnt want to raise your arm? Well, then the atomical makeup of your brain decided that you didn't believe this, and so you didn't raise your arm.
Everything is determined on an atomic level, so, scientifically, Fate does exist.

Not surprisingly, some people dont accept this.

Don't confuse this with Fatalism, btw. Determisn is the belief that atoms follow unchangable laws, not you. Fatalism is the belief that you follow unchangable laws, so why try to change them?

 

[Mordecai]

That makes sense. Perfect sense.

 

[Akans]

Yes, but then you can say "I murdered this man. It is not my fault. It was Hard Determinism."

There's a lot of arguements AGAINST Hard Determinism, but frankly, i can't think of any of them right not XD.
And cause Hard Determinism is pretty hard to refute.

 

[Mordecai]

It really is. The only way anyone would be able to disprove it would be to go back in time and try to change something.

The again, you could say that the event made you go back in time to change it again, and that was how it was supposed to be all along. Agh. Fun stuff.

 

[The Twilight Prince]

It really is. The only way anyone would be able to disprove it would be to go back in time and try to change something.

The again, you could say that the event made you go back in time to change it again, and that was how it was supposed to be all along. Agh. Fun stuff.

Gotta love the constant confusion and mind numbing-ness of time travel discussion, no? I haven't been back on this thread in a while. Methinks ima favorite it.

 

[Mordecai]

It really is. I'm waiting for someone to challenge that, because I haven't figured out a way how yet.

Not time travel itself, the fate theory that was brought up.

 

[Akans]

It really is. I'm waiting for someone to challenge that, because I haven't figured out a way how yet.

Not time travel itself, the fate theory that was brought up.

There's a theory that disproves that (I'm challengin you!!), its called the Casual Theory
The Casual Theory states that whatever you do in the past was "supposed" to happen.
Say that you went back in time and shot JFK. If you didn't go back in time, then JFK would not have been shot. The Casual Theory states that no matter what you do "back in time", or "forward in time", it was supposed to happen.
Whatever you do to try to change something, it was supposed to be done, and has already been done.

Of course, there's a powerful counterarguement to this, but I'm not going to state it. Let's see if you can find it XD

If my explaination is unclear, please state so, and I'll reword it

 

[The Twilight Prince]

There's a theory that disproves that (I'm challengin you!!), its called the Casual Theory
The Casual Theory states that whatever you do in the past was "supposed" to happen.
Say that you went back in time and shot JFK. If you didn't go back in time, then JFK would not have been shot. The Casual Theory states that no matter what you do "back in time", it was supposed to happen.

Of course, there's a powerful counterarguement to this, but I'm not going to state it. Let's see if you can find it XD

If my explaination is unclear, please state so, and I'll reword it

Well. I dunno if this is the counter argument you spoke of, but the Grandfather paradox disproves this for sure. Allow me to explain.

If you were planning on going back in time to kill your grandfather (before your parents were born), then that can't possible be "meant" to happen. For if you killed your own grandfather, then you would never be born. And if you were never born, then you can't have come back to kill him, and if you were never born to come back and kill him, then he'd be alive, and so would you, and it goes on and on and on.

 

[Akans]

Well. I dunno if this is the counter argument you spoke of, but the Grandfather paradox disproves this for sure. Allow me to explain.

If you were planning on going back in time to kill your grandfather (before your parents were born), then that can't possible be "meant" to happen. For if you killed your own grandfather, then you would never be born. And if you were never born, then you can't have come back to kill him, and if you were never born to come back and kill him, then he'd be alive, and so would you, and it goes on and on and on.

That's not the traditional counterarguement, but it is an arguement that goes against mine. However, I can introduce two theories that can counter yours

1) There are two "types" of time, if you will. Relative Time and Personal Time. Relative Time is the time in general, for everyone and everything (including events), or "background time", while Personal Time is similar to a timeline of your life. So if you go back in time, you do not suddenly turn 8 years old, but everyone else does.
Killing your grandfather disrupts Relative Time, but not Personal Time. You exist, and the Casual Theory states that no matter what you do, you were supposed to do that. Maybe by killing your grandfather, you made yourself exist (you were adopted, but you didn't know). If your grandfather was alive, then you will fail in your attempt, no matter what you try to do, because that is the way the past flowed.

2) Killing your grandfather creates an alternative or parallel universe, in which one your grandfather is not murdered, and one where he is - the one you are in right now. You came from the other universe, where you do have a grandfather, but in this one, you don't. And i do not mean a whole new universe is created, I'm saying the natural course of universe has been disrupted - but you do not come from that universe, so you are not affected, because of Personal Time.

I'll explain the counter-arguement I was thinking of.

Because the Casual Theory states that no matter what we do, an event will happen no matter what, then if you die in a car crash tommarow, no matter what you do, you WILL die. So you cannot suicide today, according to this logic.

Damn, I killed my own arguement
Oh well, at least one of us knows more now XD