Explaining Timeless River's supposed violations of time travel laws and parallel worlds



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Gram

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This world has been confusing members since Xehanort's method of time travel was introduced in DDD.

Within DDD Xehanort goes over the rules for time in detail quite well and establishes a set of rules tied to it.




1. There must be a version of you at your destination
2. You have to discard your body to travel (or in YX's case a version of you must to gain it)
3. You can't change events that are destined to happen
4. Upon arrival, you can only move forward as per the laws of time

He pretty much sums it up best with his remark that "even though one can move through time, time itself is immovable".
When you think about it, this is a rather smart or even ingenious move on Nomura's behalf. What's he's essentially saying by using Xehanort is that "don't worry, Xehanort has no way to alter time and create a mess of alternate timelines or rewrite time like you'd see in traditional media".

Sadly though that would be the source of confusion for many because so many are used to the other forms of time travel in the media whereas KH seems to use a simpler version of a less known variant of time theory referred to as the Novikov Self-Consistency principle.

This particular theory of time, in it's simplest sense, says you can't change it even if you learned to travel through it. Your actions become the history you try to change.

However it's right around this point of understanding many ask "well what about Timeless River?"
It clearly was a time period in which a version of Sora didn't exist (hello black and white) and it obviously had affects on Disney Castle in the present.

Well after many threads of this question and explanations on it I finally seen a comment by someone that made more sense than any sort of time travel explanation:

gelandporn said:
Timeless River is labeled as a special "world," not a "when" per se.

So here's how I break it down to avoid the supposed violations of time travel:
Disney Castle and Timeless River make up a... we'll say, world ecosystem. They operate as two interdependent universes. Sort of like Neverland and London, or Halloween Town and Christmas Town. Except there's a more causal relationship in that Timeless River's "past" can alter Disney Castle's "present." That's not to say that by traveling to Timeless River they're going back in time, at least not on a larger scale. Meaning, if the Sea of Worlds is a multiverse, and they were to depart Timeless River's world without exiting the door, I don't think Sora Donald and Goofy would, say, find themselves decades in the past on any other world. It's limited to the nature of these two worlds alone.

Or just, you know, ignore it. Timeless River was already bizarre since it technically implied the world developed color over time. lol
This, this caught my attention in so many ways! Not for the time travel bits of it but the parts about Timeless River being called a "special world".
If you remember in KH2 not once is Timeless River actually referred to explicitly as "the past" but rather as a "special world".
Merlin even calls it a "special world" two to three times. Doesn't no one else find this phrasing odd when Merlin himself is both a self admitted time traveler as well as one in the movie he's from?

I'd imagine a traveler like Merlin would refer to Timeless River as the past if it was exactly so.

Then there is the Musketeer world of DDD. This world seems to be in Mickey's past but check out his dialogue upon meeting Sora:
Sora: Wait, is this like what happened with Jiminy and Tron? But...I'm not
in Disney Castle, and that world isn't one of the ones that's asleep. I
don't get it.


(Mickey walks over)

Mickey: You okay? What's wrong?

Sora: Oh, um... I was wondering...where I was?

(Mickey notices his Keyblade)

Mickey: Hmm? Where'd you get that key?

Sora: This? It's a Keyb--

Mickey: Shh!

(Mickey runs closer)

Mickey (whispering): I know. You came from another world, right?

Sora: Huh? Uh, yeah.

Mickey: My name's Mickey. I'm workin' on a problem. That's why I'm in this
world bein' a Musketeer.


Sora: Hmm... So, am I in a world the king visited that I don't know about--
a world that's trapped in sleep somewhere? 'Cause I guess...
Notice the red flags (bold parts)? Even Mickey himself refers to the Musketeer realm as "another world" which Sora notes earlier as being different from Disney Castle.

I mean there's no doubt Sora is in a world sleeping in which Mickey did indeed visit in his past however the major point here is that it's a world separate from Mickey's home of Disney Castle.

It's a alternate version of Disney Castle! I'm sure you see where I'm going with this now

That's when it fell into place. There isn't just one version of Disney Castle but multiple ones! Meaning Timeless River itself isn't so much the past but just what Merlin described it as. A "very special world".
A world similar to the main Disney Castle, perhaps even sharing a similar past to it, but one separate from the main one.

This logic would explain everything. I mean sure Timeless River had an obvious effect on Disney Castle but at the time it explains why history didn't change within the main Disney Castle.
In conventional time travel alternate timelines are made from divergences. A choice that the you of this current line didn't make or an outcome that didn't occur in your history.

Going by the conventional logic the very second Pete from KH2 Sora's timeline stepped into the past an alternate timeline would've formed. One were he'd have just as likely been successful.
But that's not what happened. Instead Petes actions affected the very time he left from and it was the same Sora of that time that stopped him.
Meaning no divergences were made, instead, it was all the same people of the same timeline and in the end history was never altered.

It'd also explain how Sora could supposedly go back to a time period in which a version of him didn't exist. It's not so much that he did but that he traveled to an alternate Disney Castle!

More than once in this series we've seen multiple versions of the same world for either man-made reasons or otherwise:

Twilight Town had a digital replica made by Diz that, to his own admission, behaved outside the set parameters he made for it.
The World that Never was has two versions as well. One that exists in the physical plane and one that resides in sleep.
Traverse Town had two alternate versions in DDD. One made up of Sora's dreams and the real one that went to the realm of sleep to give shelter to Neku and the TWEWY group.
Tron's world has two versions. The original Grid seen in DDD and the personalized version seen in KH2.
Yen Sid's tower also exists in both sleep and wake.
And then finally we have Disney Castle itself which doesn't have just two alternate but three! The main one, timeless river and musketeers.

In short the conclusion I've come up with here is that while the rules of time set pretty much make alternate timelines impossible that doesn't mean that parallel or alternate versions of one world can't exist either because we've already seen the evidence that they can.

And to that end I think what Timeless River truly is, is just one of several alternate worlds of Disney Castle. How these worlds are made separate, I dunno, but we've seen many that are yet at the same time that most at still connected despite that separation.

Even the name "Timeless River" makes a hint of this if you think about it. It's "timeless" because it's a whole world revolving around that point of Disney Castles past. Heck could even be a dream version for all we know.

So what do you think?
 

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I like that, and I remember them calling it a "special world". I think that makes sense. Why would Maleficent target only Disney Castle if she could go back in time? You'd think she'd do more than attack Disney Castle, but maybe tell her past self what's to come or even wait with her past self and prepare for the future. But no, she stayed only within Disney Castle. So I think that you're right that Timeless River is just another world that directly affects Disney Castle and/or other parts of that world.

Plus, Xehanort said you had to discard your body to go into the past. Clearly no one that went to Timeless River discarded their body.
 

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Timeless River being an alternative version of Disney Castle? Well, this is certainly new and it would answer a couple of questions that I had in regards to why they had the propensity to affect certain things while there whereas Young Master Xehanort was restricted in what he could do.
 

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I feel like I'm obligated to feel skeptical about the idea that there are "multiple versions" of Disney Castle, since that would mean there are multiple versions of Mickey and the rest all existing in tandem.

The problem with the Country of the Musketeers example is that the worlds in the Realm of Sleep dreamt of their past. We can see from Mickey's behavior that this world is dreaming a time when Mickey came to it during his Keyblade training (he doesn't have Star Seeker, but is still traveling worlds and knows what Sora's Keyblade is).

Of course, even if there's only one Mickey Mouse, it seems that there are multiples of all the others... unless Mickey actually pulled everyone from their home worlds to be with him in Disney Castle.

But back to the actual topic, I don't think Timeless River is a separate world from Disney Castle. I definitely think it's from the past.

See, everyone traveled back to Timeless River in a manner not at all similar to Xehanort's time travel, which to me says that it's a separate method entirely with separate rules.

I'm trying to think of a way to explain it so that it makes sense, but with so little information about it, it's kinda hard.
Anyway, I guess I'm just employing Occam's razor on this one.
 

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i find it hard to believe that traveling throw time cant change the destined thing's happens to change the events guess even the great xehanort has his limits if you change the future you change the past that's what he said right?
That's because your trying to apply forms of time travel you see in other media to KH. And no that's not what Xehanort said. He said bluntly that you can't change things that are destined to happen.
That means Xehanort can't change what has happened or what was meant to happen, such as how YX is meant to become MX one day, he can't change that and he acknowledges it.

However it's only the past that's said to be unchangeable. The present or even the future aren't said to be the same. What you do in the present sets the future. So there's no need to affect a future that's yet to happen.
This leaves the present. Xehanort can try to affect the present to get the desired outcome he wants which is what he's doing now by bringing Young Xehanort from the past.

Basically the past is unchanging, the present is ever changing, and the future isn't decided.

I feel like I'm obligated to feel skeptical about the idea that there are "multiple versions" of Disney Castle, since that would mean there are multiple versions of Mickey and the rest all existing in tandem.

The problem with the Country of the Musketeers example is that the worlds in the Realm of Sleep dreamt of their past. We can see from Mickey's behavior that this world is dreaming a time when Mickey came to it during his Keyblade training (he doesn't have Star Seeker, but is still traveling worlds and knows what Sora's Keyblade is).

Of course, even if there's only one Mickey Mouse, it seems that there are multiples of all the others... unless Mickey actually pulled everyone from their home worlds to be with him in Disney Castle.

But back to the actual topic, I don't think Timeless River is a separate world from Disney Castle. I definitely think it's from the past.

See, everyone traveled back to Timeless River in a manner not at all similar to Xehanort's time travel, which to me says that it's a separate method entirely with separate rules.

I'm trying to think of a way to explain it so that it makes sense, but with so little information about it, it's kinda hard.
How is multiple versions of Mickey existing in the great wide expanse of KH hard to believe when we already have multiple Sora's within a tight space?

Ah but that's not a fact. We know Yen Sid's tower was dreaming of the past but that wasn't said for the Musketeers world. In fact Mickey refers to it in the sense it's a different world form his own when he says he traveled there.
That's the hitch you see, how can the Musketeer world be of the past when Disney Castle isn't in sleep and when Mickey regards as a different world he's traveled too?
There's also the fact that Disney Castle is a world from the realm of light. So far only worlds in the realm between are shown to be in a state of sleep and wake such as TWTNW or Yen Sids Tower.

There's definitely different forms of time travel, Yen Sid himself somehow sent Riku and sora back in time body and all. However even Yen Sid's method shared rules with Xehanorts such as he needed a version of Riku & Sora to be at the destination he sent them too.

It's that lack of explanation that makes it hard to see it as being simply time travel. Especially when Merlin himself regarded it as a world rather than a separate time.
Merlin too is a time traveler and would know the difference and despite how he acts Sora isn't so dumb as to be confused by mixing up the terms of "different time" with "different world".

Let's also keep in mind I didn't say Timeless River wasn't an entirely or solely separate world. It definitely has affects in Disney Castle however that itself is a violation of time travel rules Xehanort pointed out which is trying to change a destined thing.
I see Timeless River more as a world tied to Disney Castle but not exactly the same.
 
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How is multiple versions of Mickey existing in the great wide expanse of KH hard to believe when we already have multiple Sora's within a tight space?
I'm not sure if you're joking, but that's a completely different scenario.

Ah but that's not a fact you see. We know Yen Sid's tower was dreaming of the past but that wasn't said for the Musketeers world.
I'm pretty sure that Yen Sid explains all of the Sleeping Worlds dream of their past. It gets brought up in Prankster's Paradise as well.
In fact Mickey refers to it in the sense it's a different world form his own when he says he traveled there.
That's the hitch you see, how can the Musketeer world be of the past when Disney Castle isn't in sleep and when Mickey regards as a different world he's traveled too?
Because it's the Country of the Musketeers and not Disney Castle. They're different worlds, as you said. Mickey traveled there at some point before it was consumed by Darkness, and so it dreams of that time.
There's also the fact that Disney Castle is a world from the realm of light. So far only worlds in the realm between are shown to be in a state of sleep and wake such as TWTNW or Yen Sids Tower.
Of the worlds in 3D, the only confirmed worlds from the Realm Between are Traverse Town, TWTNW and the Mysterious Tower. I think the others can be safely assumed to be from the Realm of Light. And worlds in the Realm Between operate differently from worlds in the Realm of Light. None of the worlds from the Realm Between that are featured in 3D were consumed by Darkness. In fact, the World That Never Was wasn't even sleeping.

Let's also keep in mind I didn't say Timeless River wasn't an entirely or solely separate world. It definitely has affects in Disney Castle however that itself is a violation of time travel rules Xehanort pointed out which is trying to change a destined thing.
I see Timeless River more as a world tied to Disney Castle but not exactly the same.
I'm still not convinced.

Both methods employed by Yen Sid and Merlin break more than one rule of Xehanort's time travel. They don't get rid of the bodies or forget about it once they've returned. They don't return at the same time as they left and their actions in the past affect the present.

If we're allowing some rules to change between methods, we should allow them all.
 

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I'm not sure if you're joking, but that's a completely different scenario.
Sorta joking but it's still a point to be asked. Of all those stars in KH's night sky your gonna honestly think none of them parallel the other?

I'm pretty sure that Yen Sid explains all of the Sleeping Worlds dream of their past. It gets brought up in Prankster's Paradise as well.
Yen Sid never says that. Whats brought up in Pranksters Paradise is how worlds will create dream versions of a person should the real one not be there like Jimney.
What is pointed out however indirectly by Sora is the world seems to dream up till the point it fell into darkness/sleep in real time from an unknown or specified beginning point.

Because it's the Country of the Musketeers and not Disney Castle. They're different worlds, as you said. Mickey traveled there at some point before it was consumed by Darkness, and so it dreams of that time.
We seem to be confused. The world definitely fell and is dreaming of a time were a younger Mickey was there but it's a different world from Mickey's which is what I'm pointing out and you just agreed on.

The Musketeers world isn't Mickey's home yet you have a world consisting of characters also existent in Mickey's own home.
Donald & Goofy could be explained as going there with Mickey but that wouldn't explain why Minnie is royalty there just like she is in his world. Royalty is a lineage.
Nor would it explain for that worlds version of Pete having a peg leg when the current one lacks one.

Of the worlds in 3D, the only confirmed worlds from the Realm Between are Traverse Town, TWTNW and the Mysterious Tower. I think the others can be safely assumed to be from the Realm of Light. And worlds in the Realm Between operate differently from worlds in the Realm of Light. None of the worlds from the Realm Between that are featured in 3D were consumed by Darkness. In fact, the World That Never Was wasn't even sleeping.
Your misunderstanding. Where the other worlds come from isn't important. What is important is that only the worlds from the realm between are the ones that are existing in both a waking state and a sleeping one which I done pointed out in the OP and my previous post.

Of course the other worlds originated in the Realm of Light as Yen Sid points out many worlds Sora saved in KH1 never woke from sleep however he also says they'll only return with he finds the sleeping keyholes and wakes them from that slumber.
The worlds In-Between however like TWTNW and Yen Sid's Tower aren't the same situation. There's a version in the waking realm and one in the sleeping one, these worlds exist simultaneously in both. That's what's important.

It's showing that only the in-between worlds are shown to exist in this state of wake & sleep at once.

I'm still not convinced.
Your free not to be but at the same time your not convincing me very well either. Might have to agree to disagree and leave it.

Both methods employed by Yen Sid and Merlin break more than one rule of Xehanort's time travel. They don't get rid of the bodies or forget about it once they've returned. They don't return at the same time as they left and their actions in the past affect the present.
We don't know Merlins method btw. And no your wrong on those last parts entirely. Yes they didn't abandon their body but thats' the only one.
Xehanort only points out he'll forget what he's learned of the future when he returns to his past. Sora and Riku never journeyed to the future but to their past and then entered the Realm of Sleep in which Yen Sid points out that:
Yen Sid said:
In the Sleeping Worlds, real time does not flow. Unless one restores the world by waking it from its slumber, it will stay locked in a dream forever.
Sora and Riku never broke that rule because they never traveled to a future to gain memories to forget.
No one ever said you go back to exact same time you left. Xehanort only says he goes back to his own time.
And they never did anything in the past nor did their actions change the present in any way. The worlds they visited were dreaming, they woke them, but in the end all Sora & Riku were journeying through was dreams which means we have yet to actually see what affects they had on those worlds.

For all we know those worlds woke and knew nothing. Plus the only worlds that are dreaming of a confirmed past are Yen Sid's Tower and Musketeers.
And on top of that Sora & Riku learned nothing of their own futures so they had no reason to forget. Its still entirely possible the people they did meet in those dreams, should they actually remember, don't recall Sora & Riku's presence due to the laws of time.
Just take Mickey for example. You don't exactly see him ever bringing up the Yen Sid tower stint from his training.
 

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If I understand this correctly, what you're saying is that when Pete attempted to go back in the past, he ended up accidentally creating a separate world that still affected Disney Castle? That sound interesting.
 

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If I understand this correctly, what you're saying is that when Pete attempted to go back in the past, he ended up accidentally creating a separate world that still affected Disney Castle? That sound interesting.
No what I'm saying is Timeless River was already a unique world separate but also connected to Disney Castle.
 

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Hey Gram, was the Lingering Will battle part of Time Travel as well? Seeing how Sora went into a portal.
 

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Hey Gram, was the Lingering Will battle part of Time Travel as well? Seeing how Sora went into a portal.
Nah. From what I've seen of interviews and ultimania stuff it seemed present. Though it makes one wonder why a random portal opened in Mickey's basement. xD
 

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well, Anagram, this is a shocker. a theory of yours I disagree with! While I agree with the bit about timeless river being a special world connected to disney castle, I disagree with the bit about the country of musketeers. I think it's an easier explanation that the world was dreaming of what happened there before it fell asleep, and what happened was that mickey traveled there, became best friends with donald and goofy, and got so close to them that he revealed his secret and brought them to his world (because, as shown throughout the series, the only person who cares about the don't interfere with other worlds rule is king Triton.). pete's presence can be explained as maleficent freeing him and letting him go on a hunt for revenge before he did what she wanted him to do.
 

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Sorta joking but it's still a point to be asked. Of all those stars in KH's night sky your gonna honestly think none of them parallel the other?
I think that comparing splintered versions of a person to parallel versions of a person isn't an accurate comparison and not necessarily basis for an argument for that possibility.

No matter how you spin it, the Country of the Musketeers features versions of other characters that don't quite click with the versions we'd known before (although totally possible to still be the same people). They may be parallel versions (barring Mickey, of course), but I don't think that the same pattern would apply to Timeless River.

Plus the only worlds that are dreaming of a confirmed past are Yen Sid's Tower and Musketeers.
Uh, you sure?

Because Prankster's Paradise is pretty clearly a prequel to KH1's Monstro. I can't remember where, but I'm positive all the Sleeping Worlds are confirmed to dream of events before they were consumed.
 

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pete's presence can be explained as maleficent freeing him and letting him go on a hunt for revenge before he did what she wanted him to do.
Except we see Pete meet Maleficent for the first time in BBS when she frees him there:



Skip to 10:17

I think that comparing splintered versions of a person to parallel versions of a person isn't an accurate comparison and not necessarily basis for an argument for that possibility.

No matter how you spin it, the Country of the Musketeers features versions of other characters that don't quite click with the versions we'd known before (although totally possible to still be the same people). They may be parallel versions (barring Mickey, of course), but I don't think that the same pattern would apply to Timeless River.
But your dismissal isn't an argument against the possibility either and you know that. That's why your trying so hard to disprove the alternate versions within the Musketeer world right now.

The fact remains that the Musketeers world does indeed hold at least two alternate versions of Disney Castle characters thus giving room for the possibility your denying. Just thinking the pattern wouldn't apply to other worlds isnt enough in the face of the proof that we have alternate people of already established characters within Disney Castle.


Uh, you sure?

Because Prankster's Paradise is pretty clearly a prequel to KH1's Monstro. I can't remember where, but I'm positive all the Sleeping Worlds are confirmed to dream of events before they were consumed.
I'm positive. Yes it is clear Pranksters Paradise takes place before Pinnochio and Geppetto meet Sora in KH1, Sora even points that out.

Didn't you see the part of my post that said they seem to dream up till the point they fell? It's not mentioned anywhere you see it.
But them dreaming of them events and them being in the past aren't the same thing. Yen Sid said the sleep realm doesn't have a flow of time or more specifically "real time does not flow".
Further adding into my point that the events we're seeing aren't actually in said past but the worlds dreams of them. Your confusing what the worlds are dreaming for the actual history they had.
This is how Sora & Riku didn't break the rule of memories or altering time. It's all just a dream in a realm were there is no real flow of time, just the flow of the dream that's being had.
 

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I always felt like everyone was in disguise in the Musketeer world. Maybe Pete went there to terrorize the people, then Mickey followed, but they all had to disguise themselves?
 

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If you remember in KH2 not once is Timeless River actually referred to explicitly as "the past" but rather as a "special world".
Eeeeh, that's not correct. They do actually refer to Timeless River as Disney Castle's past multiple times, though.

Maleficent: Fascinating... This appears to be a portal to the past!
Goofy: Let's see...if that door's connected to the past...

Donald: No, no, no! It comes here.

Sora: Huh?

Goofy: Then that means we're in the past!

Sora: Wow. If we're in the past...

Donald: ...we can change the future!

Goofy: Hold on, fellas! Remember what Merlin said? He's got faith in us. And we have to resist temptation no matter what!
The entire point of that world was that Pete was desperate to change the past and his future. The manga makes this a bit more apparent by having Maleficent send Pete to plant the seeds of the thorns in the past so they can obstruct the light of the cornerstone in the future. Though since that's the manga it's not the same as in game confirmation, but it's closer than nothing. If the world hadn't been in the past, then I don't think altering it would have done anything to Disney Castle in the present.

I think there's something to the parallel worlds thing, especially since the disney cast's timelines are so odd but Timeless River is pretty specifically supposed to be the actual past of Disney Castle.
 

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I still don't understand why people always defend Xehanort's rules and try to bend the "logic" of the other games around them while it's clearly easier to dismiss them as an over-complicated method to achieve stuff without breaking the plot in thousand pieces (maybe there exists a fourth or even fifth rule why Xehanort has to use time travel this way he's not telling the player about).
Even DDD supports this by sending Sora & Riku in the past without discarding their bodies, changing their future by taking the raft and arriving back in the present when they land in The World That Never Was without any complication.
 

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Except we see Pete meet Maleficent for the first time in BBS when she frees him there:
it is the worlds dream. dreams don't always make sense. perhaps all of that happened, without pete, and pete gathering heartless is what sent the world into it's slumber, so the dream takes the bigger bad of the two incedents and meshes them together. idk. dreams man. they be crazy.
 
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