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Duh: Riku, Kairi, and Kairi's Keyblade



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KING JUNK

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Well I always thought that Riku found the Keyblade and kept it for himself, then Kairi's heart got stronger in KH2 so therefore the Keyblade Riku had was calling out to her just as the Kingdom Key did for Sora in his first fight with Riku. Ya know?
 

Oracle Spockanort

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Well I always thought that Riku found the Keyblade and kept it for himself, then Kairi's heart got stronger in KH2 so therefore the Keyblade Riku had was calling out to her just as the Kingdom Key did for Sora in his first fight with Riku. Ya know?

Sora's method of proving his worth to the Kingdom Key and obtaining it in Hollow Bastion was extremely unique, and one of the many reasons known that makes him an outlier among the other Keyblade Wielders in this series.

Kairi, as we know from BBS, was bequeathed a Keyblade by Aqua (even though it was an accident) and so it has always been a possibility that she'd one day prove her worth and obtain a Keyblade of her own. She is no different from other wielders in that regard. Her method of obtaining a Keyblade should have been fairly straightforward except we have been faced with the odd method of her gaining Destiny's Embrace for years now.

It is certainly possible Riku found a Keyblade long before Kairi ever proved her worth to wield one, but that not only complicates things due to adding a new variable to this Keyblade fiasco, but it also requires proof that he did in fact find one that we just don't have. Why would Riku stumble upon a Keyblade and where would he find it? That among other questions would need to be answered.

At least with the theory being presented in this thread, it makes use of the known and shown evidence.
 

LightUpTheSky452

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@Lonbilly Well, to be fair, we don't know what happened to Destiny's Embrace after Kairi used it. There's no cutscene (or gameplay moment) showing that answer. So while you could argue that she just threw it down somewhere and it stayed there (or she gave it to someone to hold onto?), you could just as easily say that she dismissed it like any other Keyblade wielder could, since there's nothing (so far) that confirms or denies either of those things.

Though personally... I really wish there had been. Then I feel like this debacle could have been put to rest years ago, if we had just seen what had happened to that Keyblade after Kairi used it. KHII is weird about stuff like that, though: like when Roxas conveniently forgets that Keyblades return to its master, during his fight with Sora.

@Swoosh I'm pretty sure it is going to be her Keyblade (though I did want a different one for her myself...) I mean, they all ready gave her a fighting stance with it during that "vision" Sora had before he fought against Xemnas in DDD.

And IDK, I might be overthinking it, but that seems like some early KHIII concept stuff to me. I don't think they would have gone that far with that scene, if they hadn't been planning to for her to use Destiny's Embrace like that later (and as we've seen before, Kairi does have a flower motif, so it does make sense).

I'm just going to pretend that Aqua never had a Keyblade that looked like Kairi's future one now, and be done with the confusion.

This theory that Spock, Taochan and Tinny came up with really seems to be the correct answer. And really, I'm glad for that: I'm glad this whole thing can finally be put to rest, that Kairi isn't completely pushed to the side and "an accident" with this Keyblade stuff, and that at least one thing in this series can be seen as pretty simple with this.

I'm gonna go rest easy now, and accept this theory until the day I die:)

Edit: And now that I think about it, didn't the KHII novels say something about how Kairi's strong heart having summoned the Keyblade to her or something?

Edit Deux (and somewhat off topic): Also, I just realized that in some ways, Sora and Kairi both got their Keyblades "by accident". And now I'm kinda hoping they have a friendship-y scene where they bond over that in KHIII...
 
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Why would Riku stumble upon a Keyblade and where would he find it? That among other questions would need to be answered.

Aqua's Keyblade in Radiant Garden was ripe for the picking. And it was the first chronological appearance of Destiny's Embrace.

It'd make sense that Riku would have the intuition that it belonged to Kairi, since that was the Keyblade through which Kairi gained her ability to wield.

As for the exact details of why Riku acquired it, I had figured this would have been something covered as a "fragmentary passage" - more specifically, "the period of Riku's absence." But I mean, something has to happen to her Keyblade (I don't think they'd leave it unaddressed in KH3) and I don't think it's infeasible that Riku broke into the Chamber of Repose. Or hell, maybe Xemnas took it with him to TCTNW after the siege on Hollow Bastion, and Riku found it there.
 
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Antifa Lockhart

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Aqua's Keyblade in Radiant Garden was ripe for the picking. And it was the first chronological appearance of Destiny's Embrace.

It'd make sense that Riku would have the intuition that it belonged to Kairi, since that was the Keyblade through which Kairi gained her ability to wield.

As for the exact details of why Riku acquired it, I had figured this would have been something covered as a "fragmentary passage" - more specifically, "the period of Riku's absence." But I mean, something has to happen to her Keyblade (I don't think they'd leave it unaddressed in KH3) and I don't think it's infeasible that Riku broke into the Chamber of Repose. Or hell, maybe Xemnas took it with him to TCTNW after the siege on Hollow Bastion, and Riku found it there.


Grassy, don't do this. Don't blow this beautiful theory I've had in my heart away.
 

Oracle Spockanort

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Aqua's Keyblade in Radiant Garden was ripe for the picking. And it was the first chronological appearance of Destiny's Embrace.

First chronologically, but that is also purely a game mechanic (and probably more about reusing assets haha). The Keychain represents Destiny Islands with its wildflowers, waves, and paopu fruit motif; a place Kairi had not yet been to as a child in BBS. Perhaps it is possible because it would eventually be her "destiny" to arrive on Destiny Islands, but I've never seen that as anything that could be used as proof of anything connected to Kairi's own Keyblade in KH2.

It'd make sense that Riku would have an intuitive sense that it belonged to Kairi, since that was the Keyblade through which Kairi gained her ability to wield.

But it wouldn't belong to her. Aqua essentially gives the Keyblade with the armor to Terranort in Final Episode, so theoretically wouldn't that be the first thing he would possibly sense from the Keyblade?

And even still, the only story instance of a Keyblade transforming itself into another form is Roxas when he wields two and they transform into Oathkeeper & Oblivion, and I suppose it would also count with Xehanort's Keyblade being all time-themed when Young Xehanort possessed by MX wielded it.

All of the instances when a Keyblade was exchanged to another person either by death, circumstance, or strength of heart was with Riku & Sora with Kingdom Key, Mickey & Yen Sid with Star Seeker, and Aqua with Master Keeper. In those instances, the Keyblades remained the same. With that evidence, wouldn't Aqua's Keyblade remain the same if passed on to Kairi?

I would argue yes, a Keyblade at in its base form remains the same no matter who is wielding it. A Keyblade will only change if the wielder itself instigates the change (i.e. what Roxas & Xehanort do, or the Keychain mechanic if we are to bring that into play).

As for the exact details of why Riku acquired it, I had figured this would have been something covered as a "fragmentary passage" - more specifically, "the period of Riku's absence." But I mean, something has to happen to her Keyblade (I don't think they'd leave it unaddressed in KH3) and I don't think it's infeasible that Riku broke into the Chamber of Repose.

It definitely is infeasible because nobody knows that the Chamber even exists except a handful of the Organization members. He wouldn't even begin to know the password to open the door to the underground laboratory and, unless DiZ wasn't being secretive like he always is and decided to tell Riku about the lab's existence, Riku wouldn't even be aware that it existed. Even with the passwords and knowledge, there is also the fact that Xemnas also used a program disk to access the room. Riku would also need that in order to open it.

Or hell, maybe Xemnas took it with him to TCTNW after the siege on Hollow Bastion, and Riku found it there.

Why would Xemnas take it out of the Chamber of Repose when he's clearly been fine with leaving it there for ten years? The potential for it to be discovered had not changed since only he had the disk and passwords to access the room.

It's too much speculation without any evidence to give it any credence in my opinion.

But this:

But I mean, something has to happen to her Keyblade (I don't think they'd leave it unaddressed in KH3)

Of course they won't. We now have three conscious people who don't seem to be going to the dark side anytime soon that would know something about the underground laboratory. More specifically, we have the very person who commissioned the creation of the underground laboratory and knows plenty about the Chamber of Repose and what Xemnas was doing inside of it. Ienzo has been observing things for years. He is going to play a big role in Sora & co.'s discovery of the room.

I think it is very possible that her Keyblade will be a major clue/device to finding Aqua since they have no idea where she is despite the audience knowing. (And I think Ven's heart will also come into play the moment they do discover the Keyblade and armor.)
 
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It's too much speculation without any evidence to give it any credence in my opinion.

I don't know why you would say this?

You asked where Riku would find a keyblade lying around and I gave you one such case.

We have two options--it either is or is not Kairi's Keyblade. In the case that it is, what you've presented in this topic is completely viable and perfectly possible. But you can't close yourself off from the possibility that it isn't hers. Implicit to the whole mystery surrounding Kairi's method of obtaining her keyblade is that very question of whether or not it's actually her keyblade, that's clearly something Nomura wants us to ask.

So when you go the route of it not being her keyblade, there's a logical line you can go down to reach the idea that it's Aqua's keyblade. First you have to ask if it's even a keyblade that has been in the series before (or whether it's a brand new keyblade... which also isn't Kairi's). The latter is kind of a dead end because there's not much you can do in terms of speculation, we'd be flying blind. So assuming it's a keyblade that has been in the series previously, then you have to ask which keyblades are currently not in use (since that would be the more likely option that Riku could, as you said, find it lying around).

Aqua's keyblade has not only been sitting around for over a decade, it's also the only other known keyblade to take the form of Destiny's Embrace. To assume that Keyblades aren't capable of changing form automatically is thinking pretty narrow, especially when we already know that Keyblades can do things seemingly of their own accord (whether it's returning to Roxas' hand even when he doesn't want it, or flying around the RoD to aid Aqua). I don't see how it's hard to imagine that, within Kairi's vicinity and having been without an owner for some time, Aqua's keyblade would change into Destiny's Embrace, the form it took when she first encountered it. She has an intimate connection with that Keyblade, and we know that a master's keyblade can be passed down to a successor.

Drilling down into the specific details isn't really going to make this any more or less plausible--why would Xemnas move the keyblade? Maybe because he was trying to use it for something, or trying to protect it from being stolen given new intel on security breaches. How would Riku find out about the Chamber of Repose? Maybe after discovering information while snooping around TCTNW. We can go at this ad nauseum, you can continue to come up with further questions and I will come up with answers.

The more specific you go, the more it's going to sound like a fanfiction with all of the wild guesses, but that's really true of most theories (on story development, not scientific theories lol). That's just how the game is played. It's more a matter of broadly asking if it's possible that Riku somehow obtained Aqua's keyblade, regardless of the minor details. And if you really think that's a "no" - or if it's "infeasible" then I think your standard for what's considered plausible in this series is abnormally high or you're being disingenuous.
 

Nayru's Love

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On one hand, having DE originate from Kairi in this fashion would help in establishing the ownership that she apparently has over it (based on the little clues in DDD). With that said, I don't think the Storm Night example is relatable to how Kairi would have received hers. In this DE example, Riku was the one who took action to summon a keyblade; in the Storm Night, Sora was more of the catalyst (given that he "reached out and touched the light"), yet his position was more relatable to Kairi's.

In both examples, the keyblade would be the savior of sorts, but Riku would have different roles.
 

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I don't know why you would say this?

Because it is. It's speculation!

But you can't close yourself off from the possibility that it isn't hers. Implicit to the whole mystery surrounding Kairi's method of obtaining her keyblade is that very question of whether or not it's actually her keyblade, that's clearly something Nomura wants us to ask.

Except I'm not closing myself off from the idea that it is possible. I was presenting my own argument as to why the ideas you presented did not seem plausible from what evidence was given within the very games themselves.

Aqua's keyblade has not only been sitting around for over a decade, it's also the only other known keyblade to take the form of Destiny's Embrace. To assume that Keyblades aren't capable of changing form automatically is thinking pretty narrow, especially when we already know that Keyblades can do things seemingly of their own accord (whether it's returning to Roxas' hand even when he doesn't want it, or flying around the RoD to aid Aqua).

Again, my line of logic was following the specific evidence we've already been given in the series. If there hasn't been an instance of a Keyblade changing form when transferred between wielders, then the logical thought is that in this specific point in time in the series this is likely something that does not happen until a wielder claims the Keyblade as their very own.

I don't see how it's hard to imagine that, within Kairi's vicinity and having been without an owner for some time, Aqua's keyblade would change into Destiny's Embrace, the form it took when she first encountered it. She has an intimate connection with that Keyblade, and we know that a master's keyblade can be passed down to a successor.

It's not hard to imagine, but I provided the fact back to you that Kairi is not the only person who has come in contact with Aqua's Keyblade, and in fact Terra-Xehanort was specifically given the Keyblade by Aqua herself. My point of presenting the idea as a question was to hope that it would create a dialogue between us and the users, not to have you tear down how I come to conclusions about this series.

We can go at this ad nauseum, you can continue to come up with further questions and I will come up with answers.

And yet you have failed to address the questions & the facts I presented except for a few to restate your ideas, and instead have singled out my opinionated conclusion of the ideas you presented. The whole idea of ironing out a possible theory is by discussing it out.

The more specific you go, the more it's going to sound like a fanfiction with all of the wild guesses, but that's really true of most theories (on story development, not scientific theories lol). That's just how the game is played. It's more a matter of broadly asking if it's possible that Riku somehow obtained Aqua's keyblade, regardless of the minor details.

I think we just have a different way of theorizing. I prefer using evidence provided within the games to imagine possible causes, outcomes, and relationships between other concepts within the series. I don't think it matters if that way of thinking is used for science or for dissecting plot points in a story.

And if you really think that's a "no" - or if it's "infeasible" then I think your standard for what's considered plausible in this series is abnormally high or you're being disingenuous.

lol my standards for plausibility are absolutely low for a series about hearts and friendship, but there is no way that you can disagree that for the most part the series has taken predictable routes that have been deduced by logical reasoning (or as logical as you CAN get with a series like this).
 

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If there hasn't been an instance of a Keyblade changing form when transferred between wielders, then the logical thought is that in this specific point in time in the series this is likely something that does not happen until a wielder claims the Keyblade as their very own.

Isn't Roxas's second keyblade Ventus's keyblade? It appears as a Kingdom Key instead of as Wayward Wind without any indication of Roxas(or Ventus) changing it beforehand.

Terra's also turns from EotE into Earthshaker when it goes into the RoD to destroy Darkside.
 
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I prefer using evidence provided within the games to imagine possible causes, outcomes, and relationships between other concepts within the series.

So just to be clear, taking the method by which the Keyblade transferred from Riku to Sora and applying it to Kairi's keyblade, in your book, falls within this line of approaching evidence/causal relationships/etc. In other words, you take the underlying features from one scenario and apply them to another.

But then when it comes to, say, having a keyblade transform on its own, suddenly that's infeasible because it hasn't happened in that exact manner? Even when I am taking the known characteristics of the keyblade as being capable of doing things automatically, this crosses some arbitrary line of feasibility? How is that not, in essence, the same kind of thinking you're applying? I'm taking the underlying features from one scenario and applying them to another. How could the appearance of Destiny's Embrace and Kairi's connection to it not also be seen as evidence?

It has nothing to do with us having different ways of theorizing. If I was approaching your theory the same way you approach the idea that it's Aqua's keyblade, I'd be calling your theory infeasible simply by saying something along the lines of, "Well, in Sora and Riku's case, Riku had a moment of weakness with his dark heart, so he lost the ability to wield, which is why Sora was able to use it. Kairi does not have a dark heart, so she wouldn't lose the ability to wield. And we've never seen a keyblade taken from someone with a strong, light heart, so it's baseless speculation."

But of course that's a load of crap. That leap of faith you take in making the theory is... the heart of theorizing.


I've already explained why I'm not drilling into the minutiae. That you can't accept at face value that Riku obtaining Aqua's keyblade is, even at most, "feasible," then filling in all of those details is an exercise in futility--those aren't what make it "feasible." If we took that route, ten pages from now we'd wind up talking about something with practically no relevance to the theory at all, and it'd all just be random stabs in the dark. I really don't want to do that, I've done it so often that I'm sick of it--entirely misses the point. If I wanted to dress that up in detail, I'd have made another thread. But as it is, I was literally just answering your question of where Riku would be able to get another Keyblade with probably the most obvious answer. This isn't an attack against your theory.
 

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I personally am so in love with the theory because it gives Kairi some actual ground to stand on as a wielder who is developing and meant to stand against Xehanort, from an origin as a DiD.

If the Keyblade was either Riku's second (Xehanort's) or Aqua's - as poetic as it may be if it were Aqua's - it does nothing to further Kairi as a character. Whereas if she had earned it of her own merit and Riku was simply acting as a delivery boy then it would make her a far better character. Also, it would make her actions in KH2 a lot more noteworthy.

Then we would be looking at an arc for her that originated as the role of comatose/unaware/captured princess who is in need of saving and is kept on the sidelines in order to be protected, to a strong female character who takes her destiny into her own hands in order to protect her friends and is rewarded for those actions.
 
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Regardless of whether or not Destiny's Embrace is actually Kairi's keyblade, I don't think it's in question if she will be getting one--she will. Or otherwise it'd be pretty pointless to show that she has the ability to wield. And I don't think the question of ownership reflects on her strength as a character either. It's about what she does with the Keyblade, not where it comes from. Sora, after all, received Riku's Keyblade (rather than obtaining his own) precisely because he had the stronger heart.

My guess is that Kairi will be getting similar training to what Lea got, as suggested in the DDD secret ending.
 

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Regardless of whether or not Destiny's Embrace is actually Kairi's keyblade, I don't think it's in question if she will be getting one--she will. Or otherwise it'd be pretty pointless to show that she has the ability to wield.

My guess is that Kairi will be getting similar training to what Lea got, as suggested in the DDD secret ending.
I don't think anyone is contesting these. It's been pretty obvious since DDD came out that these were happening. This thread is more about proposing a situation where the DE is Kairi's true Keyblade.

And I don't think the question of ownership reflects on her strength as a character either. It's about what she does with the Keyblade, not where it comes from. Sora, after all, received Riku's Keyblade (rather than obtaining his own) precisely because he had the stronger heart.
I disagree about it not making her a stronger character. Kairi actually has quite the little side journey in KH2 when you reflect on the game. She displays a lot of bravery without a weapon or anyone to protect her and selflessly throws herself in harms way in order to see Sora. Then she's descended on by Heartless... so if a Keyblade were ever coming to her, that would be when it would. It coming as an after thought during training with Yen Sid feels so cheap to her character when you actually take a minute to think about her actions during KH2.

I haven't seen an instance yet that would suggest Kairi has a stronger heart than Aqua either. Given that might be subjective, but Aqua arguably has one of the strongest hearts in the series. I don't see how Kairi would just take that from her.

Let's entertain the idea of the DE being Xehanort's Keyblade with a keychain on it. It's lack of screen time since Riku had Ansem's heart expelled from his heart would make more sense, but then it would be gone and not coming back to her. So, she would need a new Keyblade.

Now let's say it is Aqua's. Sure Aqua has Eraqus' Keyblade but if he comes back he would reclaim it. Or, let's assume he doesn't and stays gone, she just gives up her Keyblade to Kairi because Kairi has "earned" it? Kairi hasn't really done anything, at least yet, to show she's earned taking someone else's Keyblade. Especially when that someone is Aqua who only let go of her Keyblade to save Terra. But perhaps this was Aqua's and she'll reclaim it as soon as she comes back. There again, Kairi ends up needing a new Keyblade.

So really, realistically, all I see from these theories are the need for her to have a new Keyblade. Which again, I think after looking back on KH2 a bit more, does nothing for her as a character. Also, after seeing her again with the DE in DDD, I find less and less likely to happen. If it were more to do with, they just hadn't decided on a new Keyblade design for her/are saving the new design for KH3 they could have simply left her out of the scene. Namine isn't there.

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I just want to clarify that the only reason why I was pointing that out--that she will be getting a Keyblade one way or another, is to make explicit that I am not conflating the idea that DE=/=Kairi's Keyblade with the idea that she'll never get one. I'm aware that in the past, people were eager to latch on to it not being her Keyblade because they didn't like the idea of her being a wielder (since they probably didn't like her character in general).

I disagree about it not making her a stronger character. Kairi actually has quite the little side journey in KH2 when you reflect on the game. She displays a lot of bravery without a weapon or anyone to protect her and selflessly throws herself in harms way in order to see Sora. Then she's descended on by Heartless... so if a Keyblade were ever coming to her, that would be when it would. It coming as an after thought during training with Yen Sid feels so cheap to her character when you actually take a minute to think about her actions during KH2.

By this you're necessarily saying that it then cheapens Axel's character and he would have been stronger had he summoned his keyblade when he rescued Sora in DDD--since you're using the time of desperation as the point when it should be summoned. And that training with Yen Sid further cheapens that. I don't see how it does.

The strength there comes from the action of saving Sora, not with what he did it, just as it would be in Kairi's case.

If you're that hung up on the idea of DE being a symbol of strength that is contingent on ownership, then you could just as easily concot a scenario where, in the event that it is not hers, she still would summon her own at a critical moment under Yen Sid's tutelage in the future. We've seen through Sora and Riku's MoM that his methods of training are unconventional and often require great feats to accomplish.

I haven't seen an instance yet that would suggest Kairi has a stronger heart than Aqua either. Given that might be subjective, but Aqua arguably has one of the strongest hearts in the series. I don't see how Kairi would just take that from her.

This is a non-issue and I'm not getting into a debate about strength of heart that is, as you say, subjective. Like people arguing over power levels in DBZ lol.

Now let's say it is Aqua's. Sure Aqua has Eraqus' Keyblade but if he comes back he would reclaim it. Or, let's assume he doesn't and stays gone, she just gives up her Keyblade to Kairi because Kairi has "earned" it? Kairi hasn't really done anything, at least yet, to show she's earned taking someone else's Keyblade. Especially when that someone is Aqua who only let go of her Keyblade to save Terra. But perhaps this was Aqua's and she'll reclaim it as soon as she comes back. There again, Kairi ends up needing a new Keyblade.

I don't see how you can say Kairi's ownership of DE is reflective of her strength but then in the event that it isn't hers, that she hasn't "earned" it. If you consider someone strong enough to wield their own Keyblade I think it goes without saying that they're probably strong enough to use someone else's.

And once again, I offer scenarios if that isn't good enough for you: Aqua tentatively lets Kairi keep the Keyblade and then upon seeing her strength allows her to keep it permanently. Or hell, the keyblade itself affixes itself to Kairi permanently at some point, just as the KK did with Sora. It's not even necessarily an issue with Aqua reclaiming a keyblade (or Eraqus) since, as we saw with Riku, you aren't necessarily set with one keyblade for life. One can permanently be replaced by another.

There are a million scenarios you or I can come up with and that's precisely why, as I was saying earlier, I don't think there's much point to arguing these finer details.

So really, realistically, all I see from these theories are the need for her to have a new Keyblade. Which again, I think after looking back on KH2 a bit more, does nothing for her as a character. Also, after seeing her again with the DE in DDD, I find less and less likely to happen. If it were more to do with, they just hadn't decided on a new Keyblade design for her/are saving the new design for KH3 they could have simply left her out of the scene. Namine isn't there.

images

Namine isn't there, but Donald and Goofy are. It's showing his warrior friends, not specifically "people who own their own Keyblade."
 

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I just want to clarify that the only reason why I was pointing that out--that she will be getting a Keyblade one way or another, is to make explicit that I am not conflating the idea that DE=/=Kairi's Keyblade with the idea that she'll never get one. I'm aware that in the past, people were eager to latch on to it not being her Keyblade because they didn't like the idea of her being a wielder (since they probably didn't like her character in general).
Okay, I just don't understand whose benefit pointing that out was for, lol. I never thought you were suggesting that.

I know other people don't like Kairi being a wielder but I'm frankly all for it. It's not even a question of if she will be one at this point, so people need to just... deal with it. I wish there had been more for her regarding the Keyblade in DDD but I guess Nomura thought he was being ambiguous and mysterious.

By this you're necessarily saying that it then cheapens Axel's character and he would have been stronger had he summoned his keyblade when he rescued Sora in DDD--since you're using the time of desperation as the point when it should be summoned. And that training with Yen Sid further cheapens that. I don't see how it does.

The strength there comes from the action of saving Sora, not with what he did it, just as it would be in Kairi's case.
I'm really not suggesting that at all.

I'm saying, Kairi leaving DI to the point when she is handed a Keyblade by Riku is a journey where she shows phenomenal bravery and strength of heart for a character who had no way to defend herself and at any point during this aforementioned journey and should have had a Keyblade come to her. So to ignore this entire journey and just have her be borrowing someone else's Keyblade just for the hell of it, even though she has the ability to summon her own during KH2, only to have her summon a special new Kairi Keyblade while training with Yen Sid... is insulting to her. Why not have her earn her own right then?

Lea's situation in general is so entirely different from Kairi's. Kairi has had the ability to wield a Keyblade since age 4, whereas Lea only was given the ability during DDD. Lea also faced the conflict with the Darknesses with his chakrams in hand and was easily able to defend himself, something Kairi didn't have and wasn't able to do during KH2. Lea has the benefit of being trained to wield from the start, which Kairi hasn't thus far had the luxury of. I consider him far better off than she is right now.

If you're that hung up on the idea of DE being a symbol of strength that is contingent on ownership, then you could just as easily concot a scenario where, in the event that it is not hers, she still would summon her own at a critical moment under Yen Sid's tutelage in the future. We've seen through Sora and Riku's MoM that his methods of training are unconventional and often require great feats to accomplish.
I just don't see how the DE does anything for her character if it isn't her actual Keyblade. If it's Xehanort's or Aqua's, that's just someone once again essentially having to help or defend her.

That's been the general assumption of users on here for her character since DDD, that she would train under Yen Sid and summon an entirely new Keyblade that has nothing to do with the DE because we've all been assuming the DE was Xehanort's Keyblade that Riku threw a keychain on so that's not really concocting a new scenario.

This is a non-issue and I'm not getting into a debate about strength of heart that is, as you say, subjective. Like people arguing over power levels in DBZ lol.
Exactly why I added in that point about it being subjective. I definitely think that, putting aside strength of heart, that Aqua's Keyblade isn't going to abandon her for Kairi though. If anything, I would prefer the theory of Kairi being an intermediary wielder until Aqua returns to it but I still don't like that theory as it doesn't really give Kairi much agency of her own.

I don't see how you can say Kairi's ownership of DE is reflective of her strength but then in the event that it isn't hers, that she hasn't "earned" it. If you consider someone strong enough to wield their own Keyblade I think it goes without saying that they're probably strong enough to use someone else's.
Well, we already know canonically that Keyblade wielders can use each other's Keyblades so it's not as though I'm doubting that as a possibility.

Also, the only two Keyblades that have been suggested to be the DE belong to Xehanort and Aqua. Well, Xehanort clearly already has his back so she obviously didn't earn that and won't be using it. That leaves Aqua's, which I'm not denying as a possibility - though it takes a much bigger suspension of disbelief for me that Riku's Sherlockian skills got him into the Chamber of Repose than for me to believe that Riku played delivery boy - but when Sora took the Kingdom Key that was intended for Riku, it was due to an entirely different situation. Riku had fallen to darkness and had done nothing to prove himself as a wielder. He didn't understand the power of a heart. Sora, on the other hand, realized the power of a heart and proved himself as a wielder. Aqua has done nothing, ever, to lose her Keyblade like that. She only gave it up to save Terra, which is even more proof that she deserves it. Kairi taking it from Aqua and having it become her own doesn't make sense. Aqua didn't do anything to deserve losing it.

And once again, I offer scenarios if that isn't good enough for you: Aqua tentatively lets Kairi keep the Keyblade and then upon seeing her strength allows her to keep it permanently. Or hell, the keyblade itself affixes itself to Kairi permanently at some point, just as the KK did with Sora. It's not even necessarily an issue with Aqua reclaiming a keyblade (or Eraqus) since, as we saw with Riku, you aren't necessarily set with one keyblade for life. One can permanently be replaced by another.

There are a million scenarios you or I can come up with and that's precisely why, as I was saying earlier, I don't think there's much point to arguing these finer details.
It's kind of counterintuitive for Aqua to see Kairi's strength of heart and then allow her to keep the Keyblade. Kairi's had the ability to get her own Keyblade for over a decade, so to need to take someone else's isn't necessarily displaying a great strength of heart. Sora was never given the privilege that Riku and (accidentally) Kairi were.

If that's how you feel about arguing semantics on the different avenues of possibility for her then I have to ask why you're proposing other scenarios to begin with? Lol. Isn't that the point? You're providing possibilities that you find more plausible than mine and I'm explaining why I disagree.

Namine isn't there, but Donald and Goofy are. It's showing his warrior friends, not specifically "people who own their own Keyblade."
I didn't overlook Goofy or Donald. I'm just saying that the choice to have her there at all and to have her there with the DE, when they could have had her and Namine there without weapons or excluded them both (wouldn't be the first time Kairi was left on the sidelines) suggests to me that it's a design they seem to be interested in keeping tied to her character. It was a purposeful scene.
 
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So to ignore this entire journey and just have her be borrowing someone else's Keyblade just for the hell of it

I don't see where you're getting that it would "ignore" her journey?
I could rationalize that what hurts her strength of character is Riku's act of passing the keyblade at all to her, regardless of ownership. Riku giving Kairi HER keyblade???? What, she can't do it herself????????

That's why I've been saying this entire time that her strength is defined by her actions. I don't know why you would hinge it so tenuously on ownership.

If it's Xehanort's or Aqua's, that's just someone once again essentially having to help or defend her.

You're pushing it with construing this as Aqua "defending" Kairi. We don't even know if she'd be aware of it.

Serious question: Does Sora drawing on the power of his friends not make him powerful?
Of course not, it gives him strength. But even then, Kairi isn't using the power of others to the extent that Sora does. She is using Aqua's weapon, but that does not mean she isn't channeling her own strength into it.

If I used my friend's ice skates because they were well suited for my feet and performed a quadruple axel, does that take away from my performance? Does that make me less of a figure skater? Action.



Aqua has done nothing, ever, to lose her Keyblade like that. She only gave it up to save Terra, which is even more proof that she deserves it. Kairi taking it from Aqua and having it become her own doesn't make sense. Aqua didn't do anything to deserve losing it.

Am I arguing that Aqua "deserved" to "lose" it?
Semantics.

I didn't overlook Goofy or Donald. I'm just saying that the choice to have her there at all and to have her there with the DE, when they could have had her and Namine there without weapons or excluded them both (wouldn't be the first time Kairi was left on the sidelines) suggests to me that it's a design they seem to be interested in keeping tied to her character. It was a purposeful scene.

And I agree! They tie the design to her character, sure. But that's about as far as you can infer.

Bond of Flames is also tied to Axel, FYI.
 

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I don't see where you're getting that it would "ignore" her journey?
I could rationalize that what hurts her strength of character is Riku's act of passing the keyblade at all to her, regardless of ownership. Riku giving Kairi HER keyblade???? What, she can't do it herself????????

That's why I've been saying this entire time that her strength is defined by her actions. I don't know why you would hinge it so tenuously on ownership.
He could have easily accidentally grabbed it like Sora did, but since he's become a wielder of his own at this point, knew what it was and handed it to its rightful owner.

Arguing that her strength is defined by her actions is exactly what I've been doing. I've only been saying that she strength she showed during KH2 is when her Keyblade should have gone to her because she needed it then more than ever before, so for her to have to use someone else's temporarily because hey Keyblade didn't come, feels cheap to her character.

You're pushing it with construing this as Aqua "defending" Kairi. We don't even know if she'd be aware of it.
How am I pushing it? Kairi needing to be given Xehanort or Aqua's Keyblade because she can't manifest her own, even though she has the ability to, is to have to be handed everything and defended by someone else's Keyblade.

Serious question: Does Sora drawing on the power of his friends not make him powerful?
Of course not, it gives him strength. But even then, Kairi isn't using the power of others to the extent that Sora does. She is using Aqua's weapon, but that does not mean she isn't channeling her own strength into it.
That's not what I'm saying?

If I used my friend's ice skates because they were well suited for my feet and performed a quadruple axel, does that take away from my performance? Does that make me less of a figure skater? Action.
Well, if you could manifest those skates with the power of your heart and had the power to summon your own for 10 years but still needed to borrow a pair, then yes I would say that takes away from it.

Am I arguing that Aqua "deserved" to "lose" it?
Semantics.
What was the point in bringing anything up if you're unwilling to discuss it further? We're discussing theoretical possibilities for Kairi's Keyblade, discussing them at length is going to come down to semantics and opinions. I've never once denied the possibility of your theory or any other theory for her Keyblade, but you seem determined to disprove the theory we like with the theory you prefer. Which, is fine if you want to discuss what seems more beneficial or more plausible, as we've been doing. But don't cop out about it, lol.

And I agree! They tie the design to her character, sure. But that's about as far as you can infer.

Bond of Flames is also tied to Axel, FYI.
Really? Because I think that I'm inferring that it being depicted in her hands in the same game where she's indicated to be a Light isn't incidental.

No kidding, it's tied to Axel? Who knew. Come on, lol.
 
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