• Hello everybody! We have tons of new awards for the new year that can be requested through our Awards System thanks to Antifa Lockhart! Some are limited-time awards so go claim them before they are gone forever...

    CLICK HERE FOR AWARDS

Disputes between Lea - Even & Ienzo?



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS
Status
Not open for further replies.

rac7d

The prince of Tides
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Messages
6,126
Awards
4
Location
USA
Except Lea never "killed" Ienzo and Even: Axel killed Zexion and Vexen.

Lea, Ienzo, and Even became Heartless upon being separated from their vessels. You seem to be under the popular misconception that Lea and the others became Nobodies; this is erroneous. Due to all three of them holding strong wills, their discarded vessels were enabled a sentience which derived memories and traits from the Nobodies original existence. Nobodies have no existence of their own: their flesh is not their own, their soul is not their own, their memories are not their own: they are anomalies that should not even exist. You can think of them as "emotionless clones" in a sense.

This same way this formula works:
I mean if Master xheanort returns should sora let him go becasue it was xemnas and ansem sod who was hrting hsi freinds not Master xheanort diretly

I understand the point your trying to make with the Axel=/=Lea, bu the the onl idfference betweeen the two is the lack of heart and granted power, they retain memories, personlaity traits, physical traits , When you say Axel is diffrent from lea , its like your reffereing to one as an alter ego/personlaity

Roxas/sora and xemnas do not count becasue they are under different class of nobody


Is the same as this one:
If were gonna look at it this way then Lea was never friends with roxas, Axel was. Therefore Lea should now moove on with his life seeing he has no ties to anyone in the current story right now. Since negative action do not trancend to the other life then i guess bonds between freinds cannot either.
 

sora364

Inactive until DDD NA Release.
Joined
May 7, 2005
Messages
1,170
Awards
4
Age
33
Location
Where ever you want me to
Roxas/sora and xemnas do not count becasue they are under different class of nobody
Unfortunately, this is not exemplary to your statement as Xemnas and Roxas' "uniqueness" is not germane with this.

Xemnas is unique due to the vestige he was created from. He was "born" from a heart comprised of two beings (perhaps we can throw Eraqus in as well, so 3) he has memories of Terra, Master Xehanort, and Apprentice Xehanort, etc. He is "special" due to this only.

Roxas is only "special" because he has Ven's heart. Had he not possessed Ven's heart, he would look exactly like Sora: and we would literally have two Sora's running around (Roxas, Sora's body and soul not influenced by Ven's heart, making his appearance near identical to Sora's.) and Pseudo Heartless Sora which we played with from the end of KH1 up until the beginning of KH2.


If were gonna look at it this way then Lea was never friends with roxas, Axel was. Therefore Lea should now moove on with his life seeing he has no ties to anyone in the current story right now. Since negative action do not trancend to the other life then i guess bonds between freinds cannot either
.

Exactly, Lea was never "friends" with Roxas, because Lea was too busy as a rabid Heartless with no sense of being. Once again, this is how it works:

Lea loses his heart (his very consciousness, himself) his heart is ousted from his vessel and devoured by darkness. Unlike Sora and Xehanort, Lea does not retain his sentience and degenerates into a mindless heartless.

His vessel, the body and soul left behind, becomes animated. It is born from Lea's remnants, and therefore has some of his personality traits, memories, and physical appearance. This being, is Axel.

Here is a better picture for you, immediately after Roxas was created:

Spoiler Spoiler Show
spacer.gif
Spoiler Spoiler Show





Notice how Sora coexists with Roxas as two separate existences. Roxas was born from Sora's remnants (alongside Ven's heart, which is the only reason he is not a Sora clone.)


Immediately after Xemnas was created:

Spoiler Spoiler Show
Spoiler Spoiler Show





And now...this example:

Immediately after Axel is created:

Spoiler Spoiler Show
Spoiler Spoiler Show


Important Note: Lea has no sense of consciousness as a Heartless


Do you understand now? Character's do not "continue on" as Nobodies. Nobodies are anomalies, and adverse side effect of the said character becoming a Heartless. To exemplify, if I were to become a Heartless, my body and soul (which looks like me, talks like me, has my memories, etc) would be walking around. But it is not me.

However, back to the subject of Axel and Lea: Lea has inherited Axel's memories. So in a sense, Axel "lives on" through Lea (this is alluded to in Re:Coded if I am correct) I suppose we can say, the two "merged." Lea has no memories as a Heartless, but all of Axel's memories. It is only natural he would adapt those memories as "his own", despite them not being exactly "his." One could loosely consider the newly restored Lea as a "reincarnated Axel", but not quite exactly.

I hope that made sense.




Sora%
 

ChaoticWolf777

New member
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
107
Age
32
Location
Realm Of Light
Unfortunately, this is not exemplary to your statement as Xemnas and Roxas' "uniqueness" is not germane with this.

Xemnas is unique due to the vestige he was created from. He was "born" from a heart comprised of two beings (perhaps we can throw Eraqus in as well, so 3) he has memories of Terra, Master Xehanort, and Apprentice Xehanort, etc. He is "special" due to this only.

Roxas is only "special" because he has Ven's heart. Had he not possessed Ven's heart, he would look exactly like Sora: and we would literally have two Sora's running around (Roxas, Sora's body and soul not influenced by Ven's heart, making his appearance near identical to Sora's.) and Pseudo Heartless Sora which we played with from the end of KH1 up until the beginning of KH2.


.

Exactly, Lea was never "friends" with Roxas, because Lea was too busy as a rabid Heartless with no sense of being. Once again, this is how it works:

Lea loses his heart (his very consciousness, himself) his heart is ousted from his vessel and devoured by darkness. Unlike Sora and Xehanort, Lea does not retain his sentience and degenerates into a mindless heartless.

His vessel, the body and soul left behind, becomes animated. It is born from Lea's remnants, and therefore has some of his personality traits, memories, and physical appearance. This being, is Axel.

Here is a better picture for you, immediately after Roxas was created:

Spoiler Spoiler Show
spacer.gif
Spoiler Spoiler Show





Notice how Sora coexists with Roxas as two separate existences. Roxas was born from Sora's remnants (alongside Ven's heart, which is the only reason he is not a Sora clone.)


Immediately after Xemnas was created:

Spoiler Spoiler Show
Spoiler Spoiler Show





And now...this example:

Immediately after Axel is created:

Spoiler Spoiler Show
Spoiler Spoiler Show


Important Note: Lea has no sense of consciousness as a Heartless


Do you understand now? Character's do not "continue on" as Nobodies. Nobodies are anomalies, and adverse side effect of the said character becoming a Heartless. To exemplify, if I were to become a Heartless, my body and soul (which looks like me, talks like me, has my memories, etc) would be walking around. But it is not me.

However, back to the subject of Axel and Lea: Lea has inherited Axel's memories. So in a sense, Axel "lives on" through Lea (this is alluded to in Re:Coded if I am correct) I suppose we can say, the two "merged." Lea has no memories as a Heartless, but all of Axel's memories. It is only natural he would adapt those memories as "his own", despite them not being exactly "his." One could loosely consider the newly restored Lea as a "reincarnated Axel", but not quite exactly.

I hope that made sense.




Sora%




You my good sir make a valid point that i knew but did not know how to explain...u just did that. my life is now complete. KH3 FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
 

flurryflames

New member
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
331
Location
So Cal
One of the pictures showed all the apprentices on the floor with one appearing to get up. I assumed that was the point of them all returning as somebodies.

But you bring up a good point. For instance, in that group, Xaldin was the last defeated, almost a good year after Vexen or Zexion being defeated in CoM. It will probably be that nomura will say 'By sheer coincidence, all their heartless were defeated at the same time.'

You forgot about Lexaeus as well. He was defeated in COM.

This doesn't make sense though. I thought that somewhere in one of the interviews that the keyblade wielder had to defeat both the heartless and nobody in order for the somebody to come back. *shrugs* Vexen and Zexion were the only ones not defeated that way.

i remember one of the trailers where it shows the apprentices on the ground with darkness around them. Briag gets slashed by the keyblade. In KH 2 I remember he was talking like he was forshadowing something. "Wouldn't you like to know" yet another riddle of his. It was almost like he had an alternative plan.

Perhaps none of them could come back until they were all defeated or faded. So their somebodies vessel could be in limbo or sleep until this happened. It could have been planned this way, on purpose as another way to get revenge if they chose to do it. Now with the powers (if they didn't oringally have it) I don't see why they wouldn't keep it since they retained memories as an nobody. So in a way the nobody lives on.
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,531
Awards
37
Location
Germany
This doesn't make sense though. I thought that somewhere in one of the interviews that the keyblade wielder had to defeat both the heartless and nobody in order for the somebody to come back.

Not exactly, the heartless needs to be defeated by a keyblade in order to free the heart in question. The nobody just needs to be exterminated so that the "mind" of the nobody doesn't occupy the vessel anymore and it is free to reunite with its heart.
 

flurryflames

New member
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
331
Location
So Cal
Not exactly, the heartless needs to be defeated by a keyblade in order to free the heart in question. The nobody just needs to be exterminated so that the "mind" of the nobody doesn't occupy the vessel anymore and it is free to reunite with its heart.

I see. So does that mean that if someone that wasn't an keyblade wielder defeats that nobodies 'heartless' the vessel couldn't reunite with its heart?

So if organization XIII just let the keyblade wielders kill them they would have reunited with their orignal self anyway? If that is true the they were gathering hearts for nothing? I wonder if Xenmas knew this.
 

Hillboy

MIA
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Messages
3,527
Awards
6
Location
New England
I see. So does that mean that if someone that wasn't an keyblade wielder defeats that nobodies 'heartless' the vessel couldn't reunite with its heart?

So if organization XIII just let the keyblade wielders kill them they would have reunited with their orignal self anyway? If that is true the they were gathering hearts for nothing? I wonder if Xenmas knew this.
It is speculation that he was creating KH to gain it's power and either become powerful or use it to rescue aqua and ven
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,531
Awards
37
Location
Germany
I see. So does that mean that if someone that wasn't an keyblade wielder defeats that nobodies 'heartless' the vessel couldn't reunite with its heart?

So if organization XIII just let the keyblade wielders kill them they would have reunited with their orignal self anyway? If that is true the they were gathering hearts for nothing? I wonder if Xenmas knew this.

Exactly, since when a heartless is destroyed by a weapon that isn't a keyblade it does disappear, but the heart is not freed. The heartless in question just reforms some time later in another location.

You can't say it that generic, since the nobodies of Organization XIII did not want to "reunite" with their original selves or wanted to become their original selves.
They wanted a complete existence (speak, acquire a heart to reap the benefits of one), but they didn't want specifically their old hearts. They only wanted to become full existences, not their original selves.

That has been confirmed in an interview regarding Days:
–The initial members of the Organization abandoned their hearts intentionally? Why, now, do they collect hearts?

Nomura: The reason is to have a ‘complete existence.’ KH1’s Ansem (Xehanort, stealing this name) had a purpose, and realizing that he had transcended being a human, turned into a Heartless. Xemnas remembers that purpose, but as a Nobody, ‘an empty shell,’ collects hearts to become complete. The other members of the Organization have their own expectations, but are there mainly for the purpose of collecting hearts to complete Kingdom Hearts, as only Xemnas stared ahead and made it a priority. It is natural that Nobodies, who do not have hearts, demand hearts, though it may seem that Sora’s defeating them is unnecessary, the Organization members don’t look for their own hearts, but collect many from unspecified persons, and use them instead, placing the hearts in a situation where they cannot go back to their origin.

As for Xemnas, he had a completely other agenda which apparently no one (except maybe Xigbar) knew of.
He wanted Kingdom Hearts to become a higher being (akin to a god) and revealed in KH2 when speaking to Ansem the Wise that he wanted to create a new world.
Xemnas in Days Secret Report said:
I must become one with Kingdom Hearts. I will become a higher existence. All of my true ambitions begin there.

Also, his speech to Ansem in KH2:
Xemnas in KH2 said:
Xemnas: All that and more. I'm carrying on what you yourself began, and I'm creating a brand new world, one heart at a time. I thought you'd praise me, but all you ever do is hold me back. I understand, though. Unlike me, you have a heart. And you're powerless to control it. Consumed, by the jealousy you feel toward the student who surpassed you.

It is speculation that he was creating KH to gain it's power and either become powerful or use it to rescue aqua and ven

That he wants KH to become a god-like being isn't speculation though, it has been more or less evidenced by his words and actions during Days and KH2. The latter part is just speculation though, as we only know that Xemnas had some memories of Terra, spoke with Aqua's armor and was obsessed with finding the Chamber of Waking in Castle Oblivion.
Why Xemnas did these things we don't know, so anything in that regard is speculation.
 

megatron532

New member
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
832
Location
Jackson, NJ
Website
www.youtube.com
Despite the fact you all say differently, Zexion and Ienzo, Vexen and Even, Axel and Lea, etc. ARE technically the same person. They retain all the same memories, and based off those memories, attempt to retain their personalities. Once reformed they retain all memories. The same soul and body was used. So, in essence, they were the same person.
 

MasterZeR0

New member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
750
Despite the fact you all say differently, Zexion and Ienzo, Vexen and Even, Axel and Lea, etc. ARE technically the same person. They retain all the same memories, and based off those memories, attempt to retain their personalities. Once reformed they retain all memories. The same soul and body was used. So, in essence, they were the same person.

No. The nobody is just a secondary thing created from a somebody turning into a heartless.

Think Nincada from Pokemon. You evolve it into Ninjask, and if the conditions are right, a shedinja is ALSO formed, as a brand new Pokemon.
 

JustSnilloc

New member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
840
Age
32
Location
USA
Despite the fact you all say differently, Zexion and Ienzo, Vexen and Even, Axel and Lea, etc. ARE technically the same person. They retain all the same memories, and based off those memories, attempt to retain their personalities. Once reformed they retain all memories. The same soul and body was used. So, in essence, they were the same person.

Who's saying otherwise? Read Sora364's post, read the one about it in my siggy, Nobodies are the same person essentially and when destroyed the return to being that person... Occasionally however if other hearts are involved or the Somebodies respective heartless does something weird, strange things happen to the nobody
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,531
Awards
37
Location
Germany
Who's saying otherwise? Read Sora364's post, read the one about it in my siggy, Nobodies are the same person essentially and when destroyed the return to being that person... Occasionally however if other hearts are involved or the Somebodies respective heartless does something weird, strange things happen to the nobody

Sora364 did differentiate between them because it is correct. In KH CoM and KH2 there was no "Lea" because the essence that is "Lea" was mindlessly roaming around as a heartless.
Axel can't be the same person as Lea because he has not all parts. A "person" in the KH Universe consists of a heart, its corresponding body and soul. (How the mind, consciousness and will plays into this we don't yet know).

Having just the memories and the body of a person doesn't make you that person, a part is missing.
Going into the area when more than one heart is involved or an original self and the Nobody existing at the same time was already covered, it is of course something vastly different.

MasterZer0 and Sora364 are both correct in this issue.

Sora364 just seemed to be saying that Lea and Axel are two different people. But thats not true.

That is true, Axel isn't Lea because Lea was running around as a heartless. The heart is an integral part of a person.

This is from the Director's Secret Report regarding the issue:
In the end, the Organization's goal is to obtain the Kingdom Heart's of people's hearts and to fully exist. These Nobodies are called "the Non-Existent Ones". In order to assume a new existence, information about their own personal circumstances must first be gathered. A Nobody's main characteristic is that without a heart they use memories to form the parts of a personality and emotions. For them, memories have become an essential element.

Nobodies assume a new existence (or rather, try to) and use memories to form party of a personality.
Axel therefore used memories he had access to from Lea to from a personality very similar to Lea, but he is not Lea himself.
 

megatron532

New member
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
832
Location
Jackson, NJ
Website
www.youtube.com
Sora364 did differentiate between them because it is correct. In KH CoM and KH2 there was no "Lea" because the essence that is "Lea" was mindlessly roaming around as a heartless.
Axel can't be the same person as Lea because he has not all parts. A "person" in the KH Universe consists of a heart, its corresponding body and soul. (How the mind, consciousness and will plays into this we don't yet know).

Having just the memories and the body of a person doesn't make you that person, a part is missing.
Going into the area when more than one heart is involved or an original self and the Nobody existing at the same time was already covered, it is of course something vastly different.

MasterZer0 and Sora364 are both correct in this issue.



That is true, Axel isn't Lea because Lea was running around as a heartless. The heart is an integral part of a person.

This is from the Director's Secret Report regarding the issue:


Nobodies assume a new existence (or rather, try to) and use memories to form party of a personality.
Axel therefore used memories he had access to from Lea to from a personality very similar to Lea, but he is not Lea himself.

You just said a person consists of three parts, which would mean the heartless wasn't Lea, either. They were both a piece of Lea.
 

*TwilightNight*

Bronze Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
2,213
Awards
6
Age
34
I thought only the machine-made Emblem Heartless contained Hearts, not the natural born ones. The easiest explanation of this without searching for an interview is that's exactly what Marluxia says to Roxas when training him. So Lea's Heartless does not have his Heart, it's just his Darkness (personified). The Heart in question is, as said, in a state of suspension. Somewhere. Nomura never clarified the location.

Just saying.
 

MasterZeR0

New member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
750
I thought only the machine-made Emblem Heartless contained Hearts, not the natural born ones. The easiest explanation of this without searching for an interview is that's exactly what Marluxia says to Roxas when training him. So Lea's Heartless does not have his Heart, it's just his Darkness (personified). The Heart in question is, as said, in a state of suspension. Somewhere. Nomura never clarified the location.

Just saying.

On the contrary, Lea's Heartless IS his heart. Because that's what a pureblood Heartless is, a heart consumed by darkness.
 

megatron532

New member
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
832
Location
Jackson, NJ
Website
www.youtube.com
Thsi has gotten a bit off-topic.

There probably will be bad feelings, but someone will remind them that then they had no hearts. Lea probably has some dirt on them, and he probably feels real bad.
 

Sky Lily

New member
Joined
Jan 11, 2012
Messages
67
Age
31
Location
I think I'm lost...
Website
sky-lily.deviantart.com
I'd imagine that their first time meeting each other again as Somebodies would be a pretty aggressive encounter, with Ienzo and Even possibly even coming to physical blows with Lea. The fight would last only a few seconds, though, either due to Lea bringing up a new issue that takes up more importance than their discussing their past, or his pointing out the fact that they were all nobodies then and therefore, he didn't have a heart to guide him on what was or wasn't the right thing to do.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top