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Discussion: The wasted potential of Dream Drop Distance



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Mr. Megaverse

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What do you mean? When the heart is freed it naturally goes back to where it belongs (the body). So if the body is freed, then they reunite. If the body is in the form of a Nobody, this keeps the heart and body from reuniting.


Magic. I mean we're talking about a game where someone can be split in two and both halves can still be considered alive. I worry you're expecting too much realism out of a magical game lol.


Because they are naturally meant to be together and so at every opportunity are trying to reunite? Like is it such a shock, lol. A Nobody starts forming its own heart because the heart and body being together is that essential.


I really don't think we do.


It's a fantasy world with rules. You basically just accept the rules or you don't, lol.

I'm sorry, but if the only explanation to the recompilation process is "magic" then that is lazy writing. I mean Nomura can explain how a nobody and heartless are born, yet he can't be bothered to give an equally detailed explanation as to how the process is reversed? I never questioned the creation of a nobody and heartless because it made sense in context with the game. The soul keeps the body alive, so losing the heart doesn't lead to death but instead it leads to an empty being A.K.A a nobody. Okay makes sense. The nobody and heartless reform just because they belong together? Well in that case why does being a nobody prevent a freed heart from returning to it's body without needing the nobody to be destroyed? What force keeps the heart away from the nobody if the heart has been freed? Do Nobodies have some sort of anti-heart force field surrounding them or something? It seems to me then that the whole being could be restored by just destroying the heartless alone in that case. And then there's the whole thing of nobodies regrowing hearts. If they can regrow a heart then what's the point of returning to their old heart? Honestly if they can regrow a heart then how is a nobody really so different from a whole being. The defining feature of being a nobody is the lack of a heart. KH3D really messed up the original idea of a nobody and just muddled the whole process IMO.
 

Audo

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I'm sorry, but if the only explanation to the recompilation process is "magic" then that is lazy writing.
Maybe. But that's just kind of the rub with fantasy and made up universe. Some things you just have to accept as being how the universe works. Why are the PoH pure of light? Because they are. Etc.

Well in that case why does being a nobody prevent a freed heart from returning to it's body without needing the nobody to be destroyed?
Because a Nobody isn't just the body. It's a different creature. Just as a Heartless is different from a heart. If the heart is in the form of a Heartless, it can't go back to the body even if that body never became a Nobody. And likewise, the body can't rejoin with the heart if it is in the form of a Nobody.
 

Mr. Megaverse

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Maybe. But that's just kind of the rub with fantasy and made up universe. Some things you just have to accept as being how the universe works. Why are the PoH pure of light? Because they are. Etc.


Because a Nobody isn't just the body. It's a different creature. Just as a Heartless is different from a heart. If the heart is in the form of a Heartless, it can't go back to the body even if that body never became a Nobody. And likewise, the body can't rejoin with the heart if it is in the form of a Nobody.

Aren't the POH pure light because their hearts are the light fragments from the original X-Blade? But regardless a fictional universe is still supposed to have it's own rules and established laws that govern things within the story. If you don't have an in universe explanation then it's not good writing.

Well again why is it that the nobody can't take back it's heart if it's been freed from their heartless? I always assumed the heart that becomes the heartless can't return to it's body because the darkness traps the heart and only the Keyblade could free the heart from that darkness. So in the case of the heartless the darkness that comprises the heartless prevents the heart from escaping.

But with a nobody, what is it that prevents them from taken back their heart if it's been freed? Is the body and soul altered in some way when they become a nobody? If so then what causes these alterations? What are these changes that make the body and soul of a nobody different from that of a whole being? Again why is a nobody's body and soul different from a regular person's body and soul?

We need more details on Nobodies and on the relationship between heart, body, and soul as a whole.
 

Audo

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Aren't the POH pure light because their hearts are the light fragments from the original X-Blade?
No. The light fragments are there to protect the PoH, they are not the PoH.

Well again why is it that the nobody can't take back it's heart if it's been freed from their heartless?
Because a Nobody isn't a human.

Is the body and soul altered in some way when they become a nobody?
Yes? It is literally reborn as a different creature.
 

BlackOsprey

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Aren't the POH pure light because their hearts are the light fragments from the original X-Blade? But regardless a fictional universe is still supposed to have it's own rules and established laws that govern things within the story. If you don't have an in universe explanation then it's not good writing.

Not necessarily. Like Audo has said multiple times, sometimes there isn't a need to create your own freakin' scientific laws to govern every single idiosyncrasy that your fantasy universe has. Some, like The Elder Scrolls, do take the time to create extensive lore on the structure of the universe, the nature of magic, divine beings, and even the different races. However, just because it can be done does not mean it MUST be done.

I mean, this franchise's entire premise, when you think about it, is incredibly absurd. It's a fusion of Disney Magic, Video Game Logic, and Anime Logic. You're gonna need some suspension of disbelief.

Moreover, leaving fairly valid questions (such as the ones you brought up) unanswered may be a wise move on Nomura's part. Many people favor some ambiguity and open-endedness that allows for theories and headcanons to flourish. You have brought up good questions, so maybe after some creative brainstorming, you or anyone else could come up with a viable explanation.

We need more details on Nobodies and on the relationship between heart, body, and soul as a whole.
Dangerous thinking, my friend. Before BBS came along, questions like that were what caused this whole mess we call KH in the first place. ;)
 

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I feel like it is also being forgotten that this is literally what most Nobodies look like:

Dusk_(Render)_KHII.png

like are you really claiming that that body and soul is the same as it was when it was a human, lol?
 

Mr. Megaverse

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No. The light fragments are there to protect the PoH, they are not the PoH.


Because a Nobody isn't a human.


Yes? It is literally reborn as a different creature.

Well there is the possibility that the light of the children who created the smaller worlds ended up coming together and forming into the 7 hearts of pure light. That's speculation, but it would make sense. At least with that I can come up with a reasonable explanation. With the recompilation process i've yet to be able to think of a reason as to why it happens.

As for a nobody being a different creature, I thought the reason they were a different creature is not because of something that they gained but because of something they lost. I thought the loss of a heart is what made them different from humans. I thought the heart is what made you human. But if it's more than that and there is some alteration to the body and soul upon becoming a nobody then why is it never stated in the game? Why not say in an Ansem Report or something "The body of a nobody is altered because of this reason or that reason." Instead it just says the nobody is the body and soul left behind with no indication of a change in the structure of the body and soul with the exception of lesser nobodies who take on monster form due to lacking strong enough wills.
 

Audo

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I thought the heart is what made you human.
naw. the heart is proof of life. not proof of being human.

But if it's more than that and there is some alteration to the body and soul upon becoming a nobody then why is it never stated in the game?
uh... because you can just look and see.

200px-Dusk_KHII.png


Why not say in an Ansem Report or something "The body of a nobody is altered because of this reason or that reason."
So if the Ansem Report said "The human body is reborn as a different creature due to having its heart stolen" you'd be a-okay?
 

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The 13th Ansem report makes it sound as a completely different entity from the original and the Heartless so I would agree that a Nobody is a new "non existent" being.
 

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As for a nobody being a different creature, I thought the reason they were a different creature is not because of something that they gained but because of something they lost. I thought the loss of a heart is what made them different from humans.
Right on so far.
I thought the heart is what made you human.
Well, shoving the weirdly poetic BS explanations in-game, basically a heart is what makes you who you are. In a sense, I suppose that means "human."
But if it's more than that and there is some alteration to the body and soul upon becoming a nobody then why is it never stated in the game? Why not say in an Ansem Report or something "The body of a nobody is altered because of this reason or that reason." Instead it just says the nobody is the body and soul left behind with no indication of a change in the structure of the body and soul with the exception of lesser nobodies who take on monster form due to lacking strong enough wills.

Meh... making me research Ansem Reports...

Ansem Report 13 said:
Where does the body go when it seperates from the heart? If the soul remains within the body, is it still considered to be deceased? When the heart returns to the Heartless, the physical form disappears. But that is merely true in this world. Perhaps the body exists in another form in another world.
If that is the case, then it is possible for one to exist in two worlds.
A being that is neither darkness nor light; belonging nowhere; abandoned by its heart; a mere shell of its former self.
The relation between the heart and the body is complex. However, I am certain that if your self exists here, then by definition the other cannot truly "exist." The other, the one which does not exist, shall be dubbed,
"Nobody."
Secret Ansem Report 6 said:
I became familiar with an unusual "entity" while pursuing the truth.
It is the soul and body that remain when a being loses its heart.
When a Heartless is born, these entities disappear from the realm of light, to be reborn as entirely new beings in a completely different realm.

These two are the most detailed accounts that the Ansem Reports ever gave. They don't mention anything about the lack of will changing the body's form. In fact, it is directly stated in both II and Days that the human-shaped, sentient Nobodies with human memories are the exceptions. It's normal for a Nobody to take on a subhuman form, although it is true that human form is the result of an exceptionally strong will.
 

Mr. Megaverse

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naw. the heart is proof of life. not proof of being human.


uh... because you can just look and see.

200px-Dusk_KHII.png



So if the Ansem Report said "The human body is reborn as a different creature due to having its heart stolen" you'd be a-okay?

Isn't the soul proof of life since the Secret Ansem Reports said death = the soul leaving the body?

If the Ansem Reports said something like "When a being becomes a nobody the body which was once flesh and blood is infused with darkness/nothingness and becomes encased in this new warped shell." and then later went on to say something like: "If a heart that becomes a heartless can be freed from the darkness that entraps it by key blade, then might it also be possible that the nobody whose flesh has become warped and twisted by darkness can purified? Perhaps when a nobody is slain they do not vanish into the darkness as previously believed, but instead the body and survives and only the darkness which had warped and twisted their vessel is destroyed. If so then the body may survive and if the heart previously held by the heartless is freed then could the two halves once again become whole?" See now that is an explanation. If we had gotten something like that then i'd be fine because it would basically being saying that the body isn't destroyed when a nobody is defeated, the darkness that encases and warps the body is destroyed. In other words the darkness that warps the body is like an outer shell surrounding the real body, thus protecting the real body from fatal harm when the nobody is defeated and allowing the real body to return to the heart. Something like that is what i'm asking for.
 

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Isn't the soul proof of life since the Secret Ansem Reports said death = the soul leaving the body?

What we meant by "proof" is the thing that shows that you thought, remembered, felt, and experienced the world around you, building your personality with it all. A "heart" in the KH-verse is kind of like the concept of "spirit" or "soul" in the real world. KH-verse "soul" seems to be limited to willpower, since it's what animates Nobodies and things like the Lingering Will.

And I know this is kinda late, but being skeptical about Vexen being able to re-incarnate after getting incinerated comes across as arbitrary skepticism when you consider that he was set alight via a snap of the fingers and spontaneous magical combustion, which is just as unexplained and "magical" as what you have a problem with. This is a universe where giant keys can be summoned out of thin air and are used as weapons, talking anthropomorphic mice and ducks aren't weird, darkness takes the form of primordial monsters, and then there's everything about the Disney worlds; weirder things have happened.
 
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Audo

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Isn't the soul proof of life since the Secret Ansem Reports said death = the soul leaving the body?
A soul is a battery. In the KHverse, the heart is considered proof of life. This is largely why Nobodies are initially considered non-existent, because they are born without a heart.

Something like that is what i'm asking for.
Oy vey. Well prepare to be disappointed forever.

The point is, when someone becomes a Heartless, their body and soul leave the Realm of Light and are reborn as a completely different entity known as a Nobody. The fact that this Nobody is not a human is what keeps the heart from rejoining with it.
 

Mr. Megaverse

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Well to wrap this up I'll say this: When I say "Life" i'm referring to just being alive, not all the experiences of life, the feelings, and all that stuff that comes with a heart. I'm specifically which just talking about being a living breathing being which is what the soul in KH provides.

Now I think I made it pretty clear the type of explanation I was looking for in regards to the recompilation process, that being that yes a body and heart will attempt to rejoin naturally but because of [insert reason here] a nobody is prevented from returning to it's heart until defeated and because of that same [insert reason here] this is why the body survives the nobody's destruction to be in order to return to the heart.

I know people may find that unreasonable, but honestly one line of dialogue or one sentence in a report to explain it I don't think is an unreasonable request.
 

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Well to wrap this up I'll say this: When I say "Life" i'm referring to just being alive, not all the experiences of life, the feelings, and all that stuff that comes with a heart. I'm specifically which just talking about being a living breathing being which is what the soul in KH provides.

Now I think I made it pretty clear the type of explanation I was looking for in regards to the recompilation process, that being that yes a body and heart will attempt to rejoin naturally but because of [insert reason here] a nobody is prevented from returning to it's heart until defeated and because of that same [insert reason here] this is why the body survives the nobody's destruction to be in order to return to the heart.

I know people may find that unreasonable, but honestly one line of dialogue or one sentence in a report to explain it I don't think is an unreasonable request.


We're not disagreeing on that, we're just trying to remind you that this is KH. Nomura has a track record for keeping things vague so we know not to expect too much.
 

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I'd give you the reason, but that would just be reiterating everything that's already been said. This conversation's about to start spinning in circles.
 

Audo

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Well to wrap this up I'll say this: When I say "Life" i'm referring to just being alive, not all the experiences of life, the feelings, and all that stuff that comes with a heart. I'm specifically which just talking about being a living breathing being which is what the soul in KH provides.
Except that basically means denying Kingdom Heart's explicit rules for the cosmology of its universe.

Now I think I made it pretty clear the type of explanation I was looking for in regards to the recompilation process, that being that yes a body and heart will attempt to rejoin naturally but because of [insert reason here] a nobody is prevented from returning to it's heart until defeated and because of that same [insert reason here] this is why the body survives the nobody's destruction to be in order to return to the heart.
I don't understand why you literally need the game to spell it out when the answer is pretty clear?

"Yes a body and heart will attempt to rejoin naturally but because the body became a Nobody it is prevented from returning to its heart"

Like i feel like the problem is you are picturing the Nobody as nothing but the body and soul, that it is essentially human in all matters aside from lacking a heart, but the Ansem Reports state that the body is reborn as a new being, being a Nobody. It is no longer human. And since it isn't human, it can't be rejoined with its heart until being extinguished.
 

Mr. Megaverse

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Except that basically means denying Kingdom Heart's explicit rules for the cosmology of its universe.


I don't understand why you literally need the game to spell it out when the answer is pretty clear?

"Yes a body and heart will attempt to rejoin naturally but because the body became a Nobody it is prevented from returning to its heart"

Like i feel like the problem is you are picturing the Nobody as nothing but the body and soul, that it is essentially human in all matters aside from lacking a heart, but the Ansem Reports state that the body is reborn as a new being, being a Nobody. It is no longer human. And since it isn't human, it can't be rejoined with its heart until being extinguished.

I don't understand why you're still arguing about the proof of life debate when I clearly stated that I mean't it in the sense of the soul in KH being what gives the body life. I understand what you're saying about the heart being the proof of life in a certain way, but the Secret Ansem Reports state clearly the soul leaving the body = death, so in that sense the soul = life force.

As for the nobodies being different beings. Again the reports can say a nobody is reborn as a different being, but I need a detailed explanation about what makes them so different aside from lacking a heart. I can sit down and explain to you what makes a flower a different being than a human. So why not just explain what EXACTLY makes a nobody a different being than a regular human aside from lacking a heart. The reports and everything else have only ever given the lack of a heart as the most blatant reason as to why nobodies are different from regular humans.

Plus it just doesn't flow with my own personal style of writing and really my own personality. I'm the type of guy that asks "Why" to just about anything. If i'm writing something I have to know why this thing is like this, or how this happens, or why that happens. There's no question more important to me than "Why?" I've never been the type to just accept things without an explanation that makes sense to me and if i'm forced to just accept something without an explanation it still doesn't sit well with me. I would never write anything without explaining why it is the way it is.
 

Audo

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Well, again, then prepare to be forever disappointed, and, honestly, I'm not sure how you lasted how long you have in KH without being frustrated to the point of leaving because a lot of the game is left vague and meant to be simply taken at face value. I mean if you have such a hard time accepting recompletion I can't imagine how you make sense of Naminé lol.

For anyone curious though, this was how Nomura originally described the recompletion process:
Another Report said:
VIII. When you defeat Heartless, what happens to the hearts they have stolen? Also, when Nobodies and members of Organisation XIII are defeated, do they return to their original forms?

When a Heartless is defeated, essentially, the owner of that heart returns to life somewhere in the Realm with the body that had once disappeared. Some facts about where hearts go were also established in KHII, but those were exceptional circumstances brought about by the Organisation3. However, there is the rare case in which a body changes into a Nobody. If that has happened, without the vessel it ought to return to the heart will go into a suspended state.

When a Nobody is defeated, it's a little complicated. If the heart has been released they will return to their original form as mentioned above, but if the heart is still dispossessed by a Heartless, the Nobody will be swallowed by darkness. If their heart, wherever it is in the realm, could be taken back perhaps they could return to their original human form.
 
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