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Discussing the time travel aspect in the series.



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Soldier

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Hello,

As we wait with baited breath to see what comes of the new saga, we're given a lot of time to reflect on what happened in the dark seeker saga. Most of the first saga was good, except when it wasnt, and one of the main culprits of that is the use of time travel. Now, time travel in games is nothing new, many have done it with predictable results. Bugs Bunny lost in time uses a simple time machine to travel to the past, chaos ensue. Some are based around it, like the critically acclaimed Legend of Zelda, Ocarina of Time, which has easily the simplest method of time travel i've seen in ANY media i've ever seen. All you need to do to travel between the past and future is interact with the master sword, you either pull it out for the future, or put it back for the past. It even uses paradoxes and the bootstrap theory in some of it's sidequests to great effect which is how time travel SHOULD be used in games. Give it to the player and let them use it to aid their quest, or make it a key aspect. But what does KH do with time travel?

Give it to the bad guys, and use it as an excuse to make Master Xehanort seemingly omniscient over everything that is going to happen by using the "It's fated to happen" explanation.

Which is easily what breaks the Xehanort saga for me. I know I keep saying this, but this was a series about some kids on an island who just wanted to leave it. How did we go from that premise to what is effectively a madman whose sole goal is the destruction of everything? and what makes this worse is that because time travel exists in the KH universe, it means that we're likely to never be rid of Xehanort (or some form of him) because he went out of his way to make sure his essence got around. And that's really sad, because they can't just retire the character and let sleeping dogs lie. What do you all think about this? will Nomura still use this as his ace in the hole, or will we slowly get out of the confusing mess that he made?
 

UsagiChan

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I know time travel brought a lot of controversy to the franchise, and I’m one of those who didn’t like it, but I think the problem is not the time travel itself, the real problem is constantly abusing the time travel.
 

Soldier

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At the very least, I’d like to know how the hell the technique Merlin used to get SDG to Timeless River factors into it.
I guess it's like a time machine of sorts, the door itself is linked to a period when Disney Castle was under construction (you can tell because there are multiple signs advertising the castle's construction) and as such, anyone who uses it is teleported to that SPECIFIC period of time, and the door on the other side transports it to the hall of the cornerstone of light. In other words, it's simply a gateway that anyone can use, regardless if they had a "version of themself" there.
 

Sean Wheeler

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Merlin's time travel sure was simpler than Xehanort's time travel. No hearts and replicas needed. I especially hated how Xehanort's time travel method retconned Nobodies into having hearts. I liked the idea of Nobodies learning how to feel without hearts better. Hearing Sora mention Roxas' heart in KH3 bothers me. Nomura should have had Xehanort used the Timeless River doors rather than take away what makes Nobodies special.
 

KeybladeLordSora

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Merlin's time travel sure was simpler than Xehanort's time travel. No hearts and replicas needed. I especially hated how Xehanort's time travel method retconned Nobodies into having hearts. I liked the idea of Nobodies learning how to feel without hearts better. Hearing Sora mention Roxas' heart in KH3 bothers me. Nomura should have had Xehanort used the Timeless River doors rather than take away what makes Nobodies special.
Dude, Nobodies gaining hearts was hinted at since KH2. Not to mention how DiZ states Roxas has a heart in the prologue, which was how Roxas managed to speak to Kairi after meeting Namine, but was too stubborn to accept it at.
And imo the Timeless River method honestly seems...kinda dumb to me.

Like, Pete somehow gains the ability to time travel just by whining about how he hates his life yet no one gives a damn? No explanation about that other than "He wanted to relive the glory days so a door to the glory days appeared outta nowhere".

Plus it has the pitfall of "if you do something in the past it changes the future". Meaning if Xehanort used the Timeless River doors to get the True Org he'd basically fuck up time.

Xehanort's time travel method actually has rules. Like how you CAN'T change the future and you eventually return to the moment you left unless you have a physical vessel to anchor you to the present day.
 

Sean Wheeler

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Well, at least Xehanort's time travel has the Novikov rules that I like. The idea of changing the future, especially when done by someone who's not the heroes, that just makes things complicated. Look at how Savitar mocked the Arrowverse time travel rules, especially with himself being a bootstrap paradox in a series where the future can be changed, and he did get erased from existence by being killed by the woman he needed to kill to start the time loop. I'm guessing the Timeless River time travel is different because it's a Disney world, and Xehanort's time travel is the physics of the original worlds. If they introduce a world of a time-travel movie like Meet the Robinsons, the time travel physics should be more like the movie than Xehanort's thing. Then again, Meet the Robinsons does have that future-changing logic as seen when Lewis destroyed Doris just by promising not to create her. I guess Xehanort needing the Novikov time travel was why he didn't go to a Disney world to do it. Wait, Lost is owned by Disney and it used the Novikov theory! A Lost world could exist in the Kingdom Hearts universe if Nomura wanted to introduce TV shows. But if they're restricted to movies and Mickey Mouse cartoons, what Disney movie uses Novikov?
 

Absent

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I barely tolerate any media that uses Time Travel as its main focus, but adding it later to a long running series? You bet your bottom dollar I don't like it.

Also I don't get why everyone compares KH2's TT with 3's. In 2 it was a minor plot point excuse to explore the old timey aesthetics of old cartoons. It doesn't serve a further purpose, and it doesn't bleed into the main plot. In 3, its a big ass plot point, more so than Kingdom Hearts itself. They spend more time talking about TT and its purpose to the characters than the main drive of this series.
 

Idreamaboutcats

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(Insert drawn out and loud groan here)

my least favourite plot point…greaaat…

may as well participate to get some catharsis and possibly closure too.

Magic users have a pass, I guess, but @KeybladeLordSora is right. Pete isn’t a magic user. How on earth did he get TT just by wishing to relive his glory days? Plot hole?
 

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I don't mind it. It's fantasy. The way it was explained made enough sense to me: physical bodies can only time travel forward and not back, but if you're just a heart (spiritual body) you can potentially bypass that and go back, specifically with a vessel to return to. But ultimately it was just one way they could have revived Xemnas and so on, and more character texture for Xehanort. Another power. I'm sure these rules aren't so strict and there are probably several other methods/spells to travel through time besides Xehanort's. We still don't know how Luxord affects time, really, or what to make of Timeless River. It's all a magical mystery, so adding another dimension to the nonsense is OK. My only problem was that there's been no pay-off or time-traveling done by the player. Unless you count the "singularity" rewind from KH3 and I guess we should... hmm, that one did bother me a little, lol.

I think a KH wholly centered about time-traveling would be cool! Sora hopping through different eras of time, and past/future versions of Disney worlds, sounds like an epic time to me. 🤷‍♂️ The best use of time-travel in games is to show the passage of time across settings. The endless juxtaposition is enchanting, and easy to make resonate emotionally, especially with music. Whether you're going forward or back in time, how exciting to race towards an unfathomably distant destiny...

Considering all possibilities, it would be cool to play as little Sora and shredded adult King Sora, if it were a more personal trip through time.
 

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I barely tolerate any media that uses Time Travel as its main focus, but adding it later to a long running series? You bet your bottom dollar I don't like it.

Also I don't get why everyone compares KH2's TT with 3's. In 2 it was a minor plot point excuse to explore the old timey aesthetics of old cartoons. It doesn't serve a further purpose, and it doesn't bleed into the main plot. In 3, its a big ass plot point, more so than Kingdom Hearts itself. They spend more time talking about TT and its purpose to the characters than the main drive of this series.
The fact is, Kingdom Hearts II introduced a form of time travel that Kingdom Hearts III ignored for a different form of time travel. Even if the time travel in Kingdom Hearts II was just an excuse to visit a world based on old cartoons and it didn't have an effect on the main plot, it was still canon. All the Disney worlds Sora visits are canon to Kingdom Hearts, even Deep Jungle which was never referenced since the first game because Disney lost the Tarzan license.
 

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(Insert drawn out and loud groan here)

my least favourite plot point…greaaat…

may as well participate to get some catharsis and possibly closure too.

Magic users have a pass, I guess, but @KeybladeLordSora is right. Pete isn’t a magic user. How on earth did he get TT just by wishing to relive his glory days? Plot hole?
Non necessario, It's established that some worlds have a sort of "sentience" to them, as the DTD that spawned in KH 2 in TWTNW was a direct response by the worlds for Sora and co. to stop Xemnas and save them. Whether or not it is a singular sentience or multiple mind situation is not explained and likely never will. My headcanon is that part of Radiant Garden (the part that Maleficent still controlled) heard Pete's desire and spawned the door to answer his wish similar to a genie. And yes, Pete is not a magic user, but given that he hangs around Maleficent and she is responsible for gifting him certain abilities (immunity to dark corridors, his barrier spell, etc.) he can be kind of ocnsidered one by association. He has more magical ability than Aladdin at least.
 
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