Direct Democracy

[Phoenix]

We talked a little about this in the Lisbon Treaty thread, but I found this a bit disconcerting:

BBC News - Swiss voters back ban on minarets

My point is that this is exactly the major flaw with a direct democracy; majorities are free to trample on minorities. I mean, for all of America's flaws, the Senate would never dream of doing something like this.

What do you think? Do you believe that, even if it's imperfect. Switzerland's direct democracy is better than America's representative democracy or Europe's parliamentary democracy?

 

[Azrael]

We talked a little about this in the Lisbon Treaty thread, but I found this a bit disconcerting:

BBC News - Swiss voters back ban on minarets

My point is that this is exactly the major flaw with a direct democracy; majorities are free to trample on minorities. I mean, for all of America's flaws, the Senate would never dream of doing something like this.

What do you think? Do you believe that, even if it's imperfect. Switzerland's direct democracy is better than America's representative democracy or Europe's parliamentary democracy?

Direct democracy I think represents the views of the people more closely than representative or parliamentary democracy. In representative democracy, you can choose to go for special interests instead of following the views of your constituents while in a parliamentary democracy, you follow your Party.

 

[Phoenix]

Yeah, but who protects the minorities?

 

[Kazuma]

No one, unless you have some kind of political party that will work to battle discrimination/miss beliefs of the minorities in that country. Every type of government has it's cons and pros.

 

[Azrael]

Yeah, but who protects the minorities?

Hey. Democracy can be an evil institution friend brother and as Kazuma said, there are good and bad within all forms of government. Just be glad that the United States isn't a direct democracy but hey were it one, we wouldn't have George Bush so that's a good aspect of direct democracy. Just take it for what it is.

It's not like supposedly secular Muslim-majority nations don't do this to non-Muslims. (Turkey)

 

[Phoenix]

Hey. Democracy can be an evil institution friend brother and as Kazuma said, there are good and bad within all forms of government. Just be glad that the United States isn't a direct democracy but hey were it one, we wouldn't have George Bush so that's a good aspect of direct democracy. Just take it for what it is.

Exactly my point. Minorities would be proper fucked in a direct democracy USA.

Also, I thought the reason America has electoral colleges is to prevent corruption in states that are either clearly democrats or clearly republican.

It's not like supposedly secular Muslim-majority nations don't do this to non-Muslims. (Turkey)

I would think European nations wouldn't sink those levels =/

 

[Azrael]

Exactly my point. Minorities would be proper fucked in a direct democracy USA.

Regardless Phoenix. The civil rights movement was bound to occur. It was inevitable. Look at apartheid. Sure it fucked the black majority while the white minority prospered but a huge percentage of white South Africans were in favor of it. Hell even those who opposed it knew they had to end apartheid sometime in the future.

I would think European nations wouldn't sink those levels =/

Because Europe is better than that?

 

[Phoenix]

Regardless Phoenix. The civil rights movement was bound to occur. It was inevitable. Look at apartheid. Sure it fucked the black majority while the white minority prospered but a huge percentage of white South Africans were in favor of it. Hell even those who opposed it knew they had to end apartheid sometime in the future.

Oh, I don't deny that minorities don't eventually rise up. But I'd like to see it with the least amount of bloodshed as possible.

Because Europe is better than that?

I like to believe it is, yeah.

 

[Azrael]

Oh, I don't deny that minorities don't eventually rise up. But I'd like to see it with the least amount of bloodshed as possible.

Considering that minorities eventually receive support from the majority as it did in America and South Africa, it's bound to happen eventually.

I like to believe it is, yeah.

Agreed.

 

[Phoenix]

Considering that minorities eventually receive support from the majority as it did in America and South Africa, it's bound to happen eventually.

Except the Swiss didn't support their Muslim minority here =/

 

[Azrael]

Except the Swiss didn't support their Muslim minority here =/

And Turks don't support their Christian minority. But what's to complain, I'm sure that law will get repealed in a couple of years anyways.

 

[Phoenix]

And Turks don't support their Christian minority.

Like I said, I expected more of the Swiss. Two wrongs don't make a right, you know.

But what's to complain, I'm sure that law will get repealed in a couple of years anyways.

In any other country, I'd agree. But again, direct democracy.

 

[The Lionheart]

I honestly can't think of a solution. With the way the U.S. is set up, either you vote republican, or you vote democrat (mostly), choosing the side that follows most of your beliefs.

If the minority is republican, the republicans get screwed over.

If the minority is democrat, the democrats get screwed over.

Even when it's 50/50, then everyone gets screwed over, because nothing gets passed.

I think that the minority is at a disadvantage no matter what. Maybe its just me, but it seemed that a large percentage that voted for Obama were swept up in a movement, and I would think that is what would happen in direct democracy. If popular figures are placing their votes with a certain side, then many of the younger people are going to side with them. Not necessarily because it's right, but because it's popular.

The only better solution I can think of is to have more parties, and give people more options. A system with more political selection seems like it would better serve the wants of the people, and may still be able to help the minorities out.

But I don't know, like I said, it seems to me like the minorities are in trouble no matter what happens.

And sorry if I offend anyone/am incorrect. I don't do much political discussing, so go easy on me :].

 

[Phoenix]

With parties, though, you *have* to cater to minorities because they could be important demographics and the vote could depend on them. So they are protected well enough (also, Establishment Clause).

 

[The Lionheart]

With parties, though, you *have* to cater to minorities because they could be important demographics and the vote could depend on them. So they are protected well enough (also, Establishment Clause).

That is a very good point. With the way elections work, Presidents almost have to win over the minority because they play such a large role in elections. This was also seen in Obama's election.

I would rather have our system than a direct democracy, because in all honesty, the intelligent are in the minority.

 

[Monkey]

i already tear switzerland a new one here pho, way to steal my threads: http://forums.khinsider.com/discussion/139560-switzerland-bans-minarets-seriously-wtf-racism.html

europe is becoming extremely islamaphobic, which is funny compared to america.

Also, I thought the reason America has electoral colleges is to prevent corruption in states that are either clearly democrats or clearly republican.

Well for starters, Gore was supposed to win the electoral vote as well.

For second, no, the electoral college system was added because the founding fathers thought most voters were stupid, which is obviously true.

 

[Phoenix]

i already tear switzerland a new one here pho, way to steal my threads: http://forums.khinsider.com/discussi...tf-racism.html

oh shi- : <

Merge or delete f you want.

europe is becoming extremely islamaphobic, which is funny compared to america.

I wouldn't say that. European leaders are condemning this left and right. The government of Switzerland itself is pretty pissed off at its people right now.

Well for starters, Gore was supposed to win the electoral vote as well.

It's not perfect. But Gore conceded, no?

For second, no, the electoral college system was added because the founding fathers thought most voters were stupid, which is obviously true.

Well yes, voters are stupid.

That is a very good point. With the way elections work, Presidents almost have to win over the minority because they play such a large role in elections. This was also seen in Obama's election.

Exactly. You can't turn it into a "us vs. them" thing because both "us" and "them" are voting.


EDIT:

My thread (Old November 29th, 2009, 01:45 PM ) vs. your thread (Old Yesterday [dec 1], 12:10 AM )

ADVANTAGE: PHOENIX. Your play, sir.

 

[Mr. Wilhelm]

I think both system are equally flawed.

I mean, for all of America's flaws, the Senate would never dream of doing something like this.

Indeed. The Senate just dream to stop the law on Health Care.

On a side we've got a democracy repressing a religion, on the other one leaving poor peoples die. Not sure if it's a good point for the US system vs Direct Democracy.

What do you think? Do you believe that, even if it's imperfect. Switzerland's direct democracy is better than America's representative democracy or Europe's parliamentary democracy?

I want to point on this, that France, that is in between representative and parliamentary democracy, is preparing a law to be voted, to forbid the Burqah in France, and not just in public place. Just banned from the country. And this is not direct democracy. On a side note Sarkozy nearly said he agreed with the vote on Minarets they did.

Meanwhile GB is likely gonna have a Prime Minister whose dream is to leave the Union. I don't think it is the direct democracy that is the reason this law got voted. Racism is just a strong theme in lots of country lately, one for who peoples vote.

 

[Phoenix]

Indeed. The Senate just dream to stop the law on Health Care.

On a side we've got a democracy repressing a religion, on the other one leaving poor peoples die. Not sure if it's a good point for the US system vs Direct Democracy.

Is that an argument against representative democracy or America?

I want to point on this, that France, that is in between representative and parliamentary democracy, is preparing a law to be voted, to forbid the Burqah in France, and not just in public place. Just banned from the country. And this is not direct democracy.

Well now, let's see how that turns out.

On a side note Sarkozy nearly said he agreed with the vote on Minarets they did

What did he say? Because what I read was that all European leaders condemned it.

Meanwhile GB is likely gonna have a Prime Minister whose dream is to leave the Union.

Actually, that's the UKIP's dream, not the Tories'.

 

[Square Ninja]

actually the electoral college was created to give smaller districts a greater say in elections