Did Kingdom Hearts III Retconned the Titans in Olympus



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DizneyXBirds95

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Okay I admit, I should've made this post prior to KH3's release, but I want to make this in regards to the Titans and whether KH3 retconned their appearances from the first KH game and Kingdom Hearts II?

Because although in the opening cutscene, the narrator said "some of them the same monstrosities Sora and his friends had already fought and bested before" since Sora, Donald and Goofy fought them in the Coliseum (mainly the Rock Titan, while Sora faced the Ice Titan) in the first KH game, here it like this is the first time they've seen a Titan. Even the same can be said for Hercules since he fought the Rock Titan in the opening to Olympus Coliseum in KH2, but in here he doesn't recognize them.

Plus the KH3 Journal entries for the Rock and Ice Titan the entries NEVER mentioned about Sora previously fighting them in the Coliseum in the first KH game nor about their revival as shown here

Rock Titan KH1 Journal Entry:
Immortal giant in the form of a stone crag. He has two heads, but can only think with one at a time. Defeated once by Hercules, he's now on the loose again, courtesy of Hades.
Rock Titan KH3 Journal Entry:
A gargantuan being made of solid stone.
Ice Titan KH1 Journal Entry:
Defeated once by Hercules, he received new powers from Hades and resurfaced. His body is made of large blocks of seemingly impregnable ice. But the ice shaping his face is quite fragile. Naturally, he is weak against fire.
Ice Titan KH3 Journal Entry:
A gargantuan being made of frigid ice.
On top of that, Hades said he put 18 years into his plan for the planet's to align to release the Titans and rule over the cosmos was just like what happened in the original movie when the Fates told him his future, as shown here:
"I put 18 YEARS into that plan and you blippin ruined it!"
I've seen a lot of arguments and debating from fans saying that Olympus/Olympus Coliseum is set after the events of the original movie (e.g. Hercules now considered a Hero, Hades reviving the Titans, etc.) and others say the world is adapting the events of the movie but much differently? True the world does acknowledge key events from SDG's previous visits to the world such as in KH2 that they were still "junior heroes" and have all the trophies from the Coliseum matches from the first game and here Sora asked Herc how he got his strength back when rescuing Meg back in KH2. On top of that, Hercules was still a teenager in BBS while training with Phil. So I'm perplexed with what's happening here.
 
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SweetYetSalty

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I don't think they did. This happens a lot in Kingdom Hearts when Sora and the gang fight repeat bosses. Especially the ones that cannot talk. Sora fought Cerberus in KH2 and makes no mention of ever having fought the beast in the first game, but it is in the journal entry that he did. Sometimes they do acknowledge it like Oogie Boogie where he wants revenge or Jafar in Agrabah. But the worst one I can think of is Ursula, where despite the journal having said Sora and friends defeated her before, she acts as if it never happened as does Ariel in KH2.

Sora's reactions to the Titans in KH3 is fine as they are still a big threat and storyline wise Sora is weaker then before so there is no guarantee he can beat them, let alone all together. And he's never seen Lava and Tornado before. It's also not like he knew Rock and Ice Titan inside and out as it was so long ago he probably forgot how they fight. But really it's typical Kingdom Hearts Disney stuff.
 

Cyborg009

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if i recall. Aqua faced of against the Ice Titan in BbS. but Hades mentioned it was weaker copy of the original. perhaps the titans we've been facing up till KH3 were just copies as the original titans were still sealed away in their vault.
 

Twilight Lumiair

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If I recall. Aqua faced of against the Ice Titan in BbS, but Hades mentioned it was weaker copy of the original. Perhaps the titans we've been facing up till KH3 were just copies as the original titans were still sealed away in their vault.
Right, but the one in BBS was explicitly said not be the genuine article, and was called the "Ice Collosus" as it's official name. Gameplay wise, it also wasn't very formidable.

By comparison the one fought in KH1 was a super boss, and actually called the "Ice Titan" officially. It was slightly larger in stature than the Collosus as well. Same with the Rock Titan. I think the implication is that only recently has Hades actually gained access to all, or at least enough of the Titan's to stage his final plan against Zeus and Hercules.
 
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DizneyXBirds95

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if i recall. Aqua faced of against the Ice Titan in BbS. but Hades mentioned it was weaker copy of the original. perhaps the titans we've been facing up till KH3 were just copies as the original titans were still sealed away in their vault.
It was the Ice Colossus that Aqua fought in BBS, and a fake version of the actual Ice Titan, even Hades confirmed that the Ice Colossus was inferior to the actual Ice Titan and needed a real titan.


Right, but the one in BBS was explicitly said not be the genuine article, and was called the "Ice Collosus" as it's official name. Gameplay wise, it also wasn't very formidable.

By comparison the one fought in KH1 was a super boss, and actually called the "Ice Titan" officially. It was slightly larger in stature than the Collosus as well. Same with the Rock Titan. I think the implication is that only recently has Hades actually gained access to all, or at least enough of the Titan's to stage his final plan against Odin and Hercules.
You Mean Zeus?

I don't think they did. This happens a lot in Kingdom Hearts when Sora and the gang fight repeat bosses. Especially the ones that cannot talk. Sora fought Cerberus in KH2 and makes no mention of ever having fought the beast in the first game, but it is in the journal entry that he did. Sometimes they do acknowledge it like Oogie Boogie where he wants revenge or Jafar in Agrabah. But the worst one I can think of is Ursula, where despite the journal having said Sora and friends defeated her before, she acts as if it never happened as does Ariel in KH2.

Sora's reactions to the Titans in KH3 is fine as they are still a big threat and storyline wise Sora is weaker then before so there is no guarantee he can beat them, let alone all together. And he's never seen Lava and Tornado before. It's also not like he knew Rock and Ice Titan inside and out as it was so long ago he probably forgot how they fight. But really it's typical Kingdom Hearts Disney stuff.
Yeah Atlantica In KH2 had the BIGGEST Retcon/continuity errors compared to the other Disney worlds (aside from Olympus), cause as you said it yourself SDG neither Ariel never remember defeating Ursula.

Even continuity errors and retcons had happened before in other games such as in Kingdom Hearts II, where Goofy said that King Mickey (who they refer to as "their Majesty") was the one who banished Pete to the other dimension but in BBS it was Minnie who was the one who banished Pete to the other dimension.
 
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DizneyXBirds95

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The narration at the start of the world acknowledges that Sora faced the Rock Titan and Ice Titan previously.
That's true hence the "some of them the same monstrosities Sora and his friends had already fought and bested before" by the narrator, though like I said, while Sora, Donald, and Goofy fought the Rock and Ice Titan in the first game here in KH3 they act like they've never seen the Titans before and the first time they ever saw one.

Not to mention the debate from KH fans if Olympus is set after the event's of the movie or retelling the plot of the movie. I still say this is following the event's of the movie as Hades said he worked for 18 years for the planet's to align to release the Titans and rule over the cosmos was just like what happened in the original movie when the Fates told him his future. as shown here:
"I put 18 YEARS into that plan and you blippin ruined it!"
 

DizneyXBirds95

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Yeah that makes absolutely no sense,lol They never should have brought up the eighteen year tidbit from the film.
Hercules was a Teenager (15/16 approx.) training with Phil during the events of BBS just like in the original movie. Remember, time flows differently in the Disney worlds, cause although ten years has passed between Birth by Sleep and the first KH game, in Herc's world, 2-3 years has passed so by the time of the events of the first game, Hercules is 18 years old much like in the original movie.

Look I'm going to be blunt, but I don't think the events of Olympus/Olympus Coliseum during the events of KH, KH2 and KH3 took place "after the events of the movie" when compared to Halloween Town (The Nightmare Before Christmas) in KH and KH2 which took place before and after the movie's events respectively.

Wait, 18 years? Was Herc 7 in BBS?
Herc was still a teenager (15/16 years approx.) in BBS. Remember time flows differently in the Disney worlds, cause although ten years has passed between BBS and the first KH game, Herc is actually 18/20 which seem to me that 2 years have passed in Herc's world.
 

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Was it ever stated time flows differently in other worlds or was that just a fan headcannon? I can't think of any official source or interview stating it
 

DizneyXBirds95

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Was it ever stated time flows differently in other worlds or was that just a fan headcannon? I can't think of any official source or interview stating it
It was in one of Yen Sid's conversations regarding the sleeping worlds differing from the actual worlds in Dream Drop Distance.

However, It seems that the original worlds (Destiny Islands, Twilight Town, Radiant Garden, Land of Departure etc) follow the same flow of time, but for the other worlds, mainly the Disney worlds it's not the case.

You can view more info on this right here.
 

AdrianXXII

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Honestly until KH3 came out and did the story like of Hercules, I had just assumed that Herc was in his mid 20s and the events of the movie had already happened.

The whole time flow in KH has been a bit weird to begin with. If I remember correctly each world has it's own rules, perhaps how time flows or people age is one of them?
I think it's safe to assume that how time flows is one of those things that can vary from world to world. So while some worlds like Radiant Garden and Destiny Island are in sync a lot of worlds aren't.
 

Face My Fears

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I thought that Hades only gained access to the Ice and Rock Titans in KH1. By the time of KH3, he gained the others that he unleashed as his full plan. It kind of makes sense since the last fight in the Hades Cup is the Rock Titan (probably sent as revenge by Hades) and the Ice Titan is a super boss unlocked after beating the Hades Cup (IIRC).
 

DizneyXBirds95

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I thought that Hades only gained access to the Ice and Rock Titans in KH1. By the time of KH3, he gained the others that he unleashed as his full plan. It kind of makes sense since the last fight in the Hades Cup is the Rock Titan (probably sent as revenge by Hades) and the Ice Titan is a super boss unlocked after beating the Hades Cup (IIRC).
Though the problem in regards to Rock and Ice Titan, is that their were continuity errors and retcons when we saw them again, mainly on the former. In the first game after Sora defeated the Rock Titan it crumbled into a pile a rocks, In KH2, Hercules was fighting against the Rock Titan at the Coliseum before swinging it out of the stadium, now in KH3 the Rock Titan was freed from prison by Hades along with the rest of the Titans after the planets and cosmos aligned, just like in the film.

I'm going to be honest but all of this regarding the Titans is very reminiscent to Atlantica in KH2 where Sora and the gang don't remember defeating Ursula, not to mention Sora not recognizing the Cerberus back in KH2, despite the fact they fought the beast in the first game. Lastly I highly doubt the events of Olympus/Olympus Coliseum is set after the events of the original movie, because if it did we wouldn't be getting the Hydra nor the Titans along with Hades saying he waited 18 years to release the Titans.

Keep in mind that time flows differently in the Disney worlds when compared to the original worlds (Destiny Islands, Radiant Garden, Twilight Town), cause although a decade has passed between Birth by Sleep and the first KH game, in Herc's world, only 2-3 years has passed so by the time of the events of the first game, Hercules is 18 years old much like in the original movie, which makes sense cause when we saw Hercules during the events of BBS he was still a Teenager (15/16 approx.) training with Phil.
 

AdrianXXII

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I guess it's technically possible that Hades found a way to release only a few of them while Herc was 17 going on 18, which then thought in the coliseum matches. Hades might not have been able to release them all until the conditions were met. That's how I'd explain it away in-universe.

Out-of-universe I do feel like in KH1&2 the world was set after the movie and then in KH3 they decided they wanted to do a take on the climax of the movie and that complicated things a bit.
It doesn't outright contradict the previous games but it does make things a bit messy and not match up as nicely anymore.

Also it's not odd for Sora and Co. to not acknowledge fighting people before, especially foes from the tournaments. Sora acted as if he had never seen Sephiroth before despite fighting him in KH1 for example.
 

DizneyXBirds95

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I guess it's technically possible that Hades found a way to release only a few of them while Herc was 17 going on 18, which then thought in the coliseum matches. Hades might not have been able to release them all until the conditions were met. That's how I'd explain it away in-universe.
That could be one possibility, as not only as this would take place during the movie's events but do their own spin on the plot of the Hercules movie.

Out-of-universe I do feel like in KH1&2 the world was set after the movie and then in KH3 they decided they wanted to do a take on the climax of the movie and that complicated things a bit.
It doesn't outright contradict the previous games but it does make things a bit messy and not match up as nicely anymore.
You know, Initially I thought that was the case prior to KH3's release (including the images of Olympus), as Herc is already a "true Hero". On top of that when we meet Meg in KH2, it doesn't seem she sold her soul to Hades and is no longer a prisoner like in the film, as she came to the Underworld to tell Hades to give Herc a break, plus when Herc saved Meg from the River of Styx, he brought up his Father's quote from the original film: "For a true hero isn't measured by the size of his strength, but by the strength of his heart."

By KH3, it looks like the story of Olympus/Olympus Coliseum from BBS to now was just a loose retelling of the film, with some deviations to fit with the KH plot which like you said the story does not match up nicely, at least with the other Disney worlds it's obvious that the worlds of Toy Box, San Fransokyo, Monstropolis and especially Halloween Town all were unrelated to the film's plot, as the former took place between the 2nd and 3rd Toy Story films, and the latter two were set after the events of the movie, although it's funny that I still see many people continue to say that Monstropolis was set during the events of the movie, due to the presence of Boo when in actuality it's set after the events of the movie, as Monster's Inc. is now utilizing Laughter instead of Screams for their source of power and Sully is the CEO of the Company.

With Halloween Town in KH1 and KH2 they both took place before and after the events of the movie, as the former suggests that Jack Skellington had yet to discover Christmas Town and in the latter Santa seems to recognize Jack and questions him what trouble did he brought this time, followed by Sora questioning Jack to which he explains "It's a Long Story".
 
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