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Did anyone else not really like the nobodies?



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That KH 2 "went out of its way" to contradict itself with this may actually have been deliberate in order to stir up debate
Eh I'd say it's a little of it but also a little stretching since not every game we got after KH2 was originally intended by Nomura right? Or is that some misconception as well?

I was always under the impression he only really had Birth by Sleep in mind with the rest coming from other reasons.

But I guess it's moot. If he didn't intend them all then he also likely had alternate plans for the plots of games he did plan so the reveal may have happened regardless.
 

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I don't think many of these problems are really with the Nobodies themselves, but with KH2's writing and their execution therein.

My and almost everyone else's biggest problem with the way the Organization was handled was their lack of presence. But this has nothing to do with the Nobodies as a concept, and everything to do with the game's other, more glaring, narrative failings. I didn't really have a problem with the way the lessers were handled either, and (directed at Hakan Xatos' criticism) I don't think there was anything particularly convoluted about them. In the Secret Ansem Reports, and in the player's formal introduction to them by Yen Sid, it's made pretty clear that Nobodies are exceptional—as Seph just stated, not as many Nobodies are created as Heartless—and they're intelligent; not mindless attackers like the Heartless or Unversed. And in KH2, they would've only distracted Sora from the Heartless, which would've been counter-productive to the Organization's plot. For the lesser Nobodies to have played a bigger part in KH2 might've been nice, but it would've been just another example of the narrative contradicting itself. The story would've needed to take a very different shape in order to properly utilize them. As it stands, we're given a canonical (and fairly reasonable, imo) excuse for their low-key appearance. That being said, I agree that it would've been just as well for the lessers not to have made any appearance in the first place (not that I wasn't happy for what little variety they offered anyway). And the whole non-existence thing is silly, yeah. It could be argued, I guess, that their legitimacy is only in question because of their missing hearts, which, in KH, seems to be the primary self, but that's neither here nor there. In the traditional sense, they definitely exist.

On the note of their heartlessness (let me just take a moment to say that I agree w/ chu on this front; all Heartless have is hearts, and Nobodies DO have bodies (in addition to a soul), so, um?? These names might work figuratively if the literal didn't totally eclipse their meaning lol), I didn't find their supposed lack of emotion nearly so hard to believe as some of the posters here. You have to remember that all this really means is that they function basically like intelligent socio/psychopaths (I think krexia wrote an Axel-centric editorial for the site, ages ago, that touched on this a bit?), who know how to disguise their differences in order to manipulate [others, circumstances, etc.] to their own ends. Not to say that all of their behavior is necessarily appropriated, especially in the case of Nobodies who, obviously, were at one point capable of empathy and a genuine range of emotion. I think some of that is probably habit. But things like personality or charisma, after all, are not emotional expressions, but psychological. Like, someone mentioned Demyx earlier as an argument against this, but I think he's actually a pretty excellent example: All of his apparent personality quirks and "emotional" responses are utilized specifically to make himself seem harmless, to self-preserve, but he turns on a dime when finally forced to confront Sora in the Underworld, in a way that reads pretty uncannily to the player—illustrating that, indeed, he's been playacting all along.

On the other hand, I think Axel already makes it abundantly clear in KH2 that their heartlessness is ephemeral at best. I don't think the revelation in 3D was as much backpedaling as it was confirmation. And this is where, imo, things actually get convoluted. I think the Nobodies as a whole made more sense when we were led to believe they were only appropriating emotion. As they stand now, with their lil fledgling babyhearts, the entire point of their being is basically defeated. Like why even? I think most of us can agree that the series as a whole took a turn for the worse with KH2, but 3D in particular didn't exactly improve the situation, story or lore-wise.
 
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kuraudoVII

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That KH 2 "went out of its way" to contradict itself with this may actually have been deliberate in order to stir up debate, and hoo was it one of the most hotly discussed topics back in the days when KH 2 was still fresh and Days just on the horizon with BBS not yet an issue.

The having emotions or not with the Nobodies was always an iffy issue, unlike the fact that they had no hearts which still remains true as they start out with none.
The only thing DDD changes is to reveal that there is a method for Nobodies to gain a heart that is different than the one Xemnas claimed to be the only possibility (which was in itself a lie already too).
KH 2 and surrounding supplementary material only state that Nobodies have no heart, it does not say anything about this state being permanently unchangeable.
The iffy issue with the emotions got finally cleared up with DDD, although hints had been certainly placed earlier during the series and parts of the fandom theorized all along that the "we don't really exist"-stuff was bogus.

---

As for the Nobodies rarely appearing during KH 2 itself, I'd say in this case they have written themselves into a corner as it is explicitly stated that Nobodies are decidedly fewer in overall numbers compared to Heartless (not every heart falling to Darkness produces a Nobody, but every heart falling produces a Heartless).
So in-universe and in correlation with the plot, encountering fewer Nobodies than Heartless during the game is actually reasonable, but the gameplay aspect obviously suffered for it.

Ah man, I remember, those days. Some of my friends and I would go onto philosophical debates about their states of existences and how much of their "emotion" was actual emotion compared to simply remembering and exaggerating what emotions they remember to the point that Poe's Law kicks in and they couldn't tell which was real and which wasn't anymore.

And yeah, completely agree on the gameplay suffering over the whole "less Nobodies in the game because they are simply rarer" shtick. It merely served to render their insignificance more, well, insignificant.

Sephiroth0812 said:
In retrospect, this one is almost funny as in hindsight it is exactly the fact that the "we don't exist/cannot truly feel"-mantra gets repeated and hammered down so often that shows it is in fact a repeatedly used suggestive brainwashing technique freely going by the premise that if you repeat a lie often enough and with enough force people will eventually believe it and continue to believe it.

I do believe these lyrics might fit here.

Trivium said:
Devoutly wished for blinded eyes
This tragedy's like light to the flies
This seems to suit you better
Bleeding out the eyes
Hope's left in chain suspension
Holding onto lies, to make the truth

I don't think many of these problems are really with the Nobodies themselves, but with KH2's writing and their execution therein.

My and almost everyone else's biggest problem with the way the Organization was handled was their lack of presence. But this has nothing to do with the Nobodies as a concept, and everything to do with the game's other, more glaring, narrative failings. I didn't really have a problem with the way the lessers were handled either, and (directed at Hakan Xatos' criticism) I don't think there was anything particularly convoluted about them. In the Secret Ansem Reports, and in the player's formal introduction to them by Yen Sid, it's made pretty clear that Nobodies are exceptional—as Seph just stated, not as many Nobodies are created as Heartless—and they're intelligent; not mindless attackers like the Heartless or Unversed. And in KH2, they would've only distracted Sora from the Heartless, which would've been counter-productive to the Organization's plot. For the lesser Nobodies to have played a bigger part in KH2 might've been nice, but it would've been just another example of the narrative contradicting itself. The story would've needed to take a very different shape in order to properly utilize them. As it stands, we're given a canonical (and fairly reasonable, imo) excuse for their low-key appearance. That being said, I agree that it would've been just as well for the lessers not to have made any appearance in the first place (not that I wasn't happy for what little variety they offered anyway). And the whole non-existence thing is silly, yeah. It could be argued, I guess, that their legitimacy is only in question because of their missing hearts, which, in KH, seems to be the primary self, but that's neither here nor there. In the traditional sense, they definitely exist.

On the note of their heartlessness (let me just take a moment to say that I agree w/ chu on this front; all Heartless have is hearts, and Nobodies DO have bodies (in addition to a soul), so, um?? These names might work figuratively if the literal didn't totally eclipse their meaning lol), I didn't find their supposed lack of emotion nearly so hard to believe as some of the posters here. You have to remember that all this really means is that they function basically like intelligent socio/psychopaths (I think krexia wrote an Axel-centric editorial for the site, ages ago, that touched on this a bit?), who know how to disguise their differences in order to manipulate [others, circumstances, etc.] to their own ends. Not to say that all of their behavior is necessarily appropriated, especially in the case of Nobodies who, obviously, were at one point capable of empathy and a genuine range of emotion. I think some of that is probably habit. But things like personality or charisma, after all, are not emotional expressions, but psychological. Like, someone mentioned Demyx earlier as an argument against this, but I think he's actually a pretty excellent example: All of his apparent personality quirks and "emotional" responses are utilized specifically to make himself seem harmless, to self-preserve, but he turns on a dime when finally forced to confront Sora in the Underworld, in a way that reads pretty uncannily to the player—illustrating that, indeed, he's been playacting all along.

On the other hand, I think Axel already makes it abundantly clear in KH2 that their heartlessness is ephemeral at best. I don't think the revelation in 3D was as much backpedaling as it was confirmation. And this is where, imo, things actually get convoluted. I think the Nobodies as a whole made more sense when we were led to believe they were only appropriating emotion. As they stand now, with their lil fledgling babyhearts, the entire point of their being is basically defeated. Like why even? I think most of us can agree that the series as a whole took a turn for the worse with KH2, but 3D in particular didn't exactly improve the situation, story or lore-wise.

Agreed. By the time 3D came around, it was pretty clear no matter what side of the argument you were on that they did at least have the propensity to have hearts.
 

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So I'm getting the general consensus is hate of poor execution but indifferent to the species. To bad I don't seeing them being important later. Unless the survivors get a new humanoid leader.
 

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i like the mysterious aura that organization was giving off, but they quicklymoved to the background.

I personally thought the Dusk nobodies could've been designed better. Allt he other ones were good. but perhaps introducing Nobodies in chain of memories would've been better. being able to see Larxene's nobodies and Marluxia's.
 

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To be honest when playing KH 2 for the very first time I always thought that the Assassin-Nobodies are Marluxias designated ones and Axel just got control over them as reward for his loyalty to the Organisation and his involvement in bringing Marluxia down.
He was "The Graceful Assassin" after all...<__<
 
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