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Darknesses and Lights



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kingmickey88

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I think the thing about the 7 keyblade wielders maybe right. but if it was chain command, it would be like this...

Yen Sid (as the general)
Mickey, Sora & Riku (as the commander of the the other keyblade masters in charge of the battles)
Xion & Roxas (representing the neo/good keyblade wielders
Lea & Kiari & auqa (the fresh blood keyblade masters)
Donald and goofy (being loyal pals in the fight)


If i had to decide for the other leaders on the other side

Darkside
Maleficent
Pete
Xaldin
Heartless
Vanitas
nobodies
 

Rexy

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I really think that Marluxia's somebody is one of this 13 Darkness Organization.
I don't know why but although he betrayed organization 13 I really think that he is one with Xehanort heart. I would love to see for example Larxene, Xehanort as a girl xD
But now there is one think i cannot understand, if Xehanort wanted organization 13 to be the 13 darknesses why creating Xion? to be in the place of Roxas? but why? they on DDD said Riku was going to be in that place, not Sora (or any replica of him [xion]) nor Roxas...
 

rac7d

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I really think that Marluxia's somebody is one of this 13 Darkness Organization.
I don't know why but although he betrayed organization 13 I really think that he is one with Xehanort heart. I would love to see for example Larxene, Xehanort as a girl xD
But now there is one think i cannot understand, if Xehanort wanted organization 13 to be the 13 darknesses why creating Xion? to be in the place of Roxas? but why? they on DDD said Riku was going to be in that place, not Sora (or any replica of him [xion]) nor Roxas...

Defintly agree with this. Nomura siad that familar faces would fill the remaining hooded members. YMX simply has to go a point in time and tell Marluxia his plan will fail and offer him power, which would then create a new vessel. I dont believe Larxene would be one but if marluxia reaperes then she would as well. Which would proably lead to a cliche' fight later on. It does not make sense for him to be such a big oss then and nothing now.
 

CinnamonRoxas

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Heres my thoughts the 7 lights are: sora riku mickey ven aqua terra and lea kairi is being trained to defend herself
the 13 darkness's MX, YMX, ansem seeker of darkness xemnas isa braig vanitas terranort xeahnort(the aprentice) terra luxord marluxia xion
 

JustSnilloc

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I still not understanding. Xion was replica not a nobody so why does she have a heart. We learned nobodies can grow hearts. Where is it confirmed that replica's can too develop reall hearts or that there clone heart is equivalent to a real one. Even if she has a heart like Roxas, Namine she currently has no body no shell to house the heart so how would she be revied. The heart needs a home. Thats the true complication of roxas' nobody situation, his original self is present and in use of the body. Finally I felt xion being remember always seem like her being brought back. Being brought back to the memories of the people who cared about her Lea, riku and Roxas and inturn sora. Xion herself would not be particulary helpful to the final battle. She is basicaly weaker version of sora.

Nomura said, and it's been hinted at throughout the entirety of the series that everything has (or has the potential to grow) a heart
 

rac7d

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Nomura said, and it's been hinted at throughout the entirety of the series that everything has (or has the potential to grow) a heart

Where did he say that? All i know for sure is that it has been said that nobodies can grow themselves new hearts.To be more specific i'm assuming it is only specila nobodies. It makes me wonder if they can grow and develop a heart by the end are they still nobodies. In a sense woulndt that just make them there original selves.
Anyway heart or not how would xion apperance not put sora back into a coma. What would he e made out of. She has no physcal form.
 

iLeen

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Where did he say that? All i know for sure is that it has been said that nobodies can grow themselves new hearts.To be more specific i'm assuming it is only specila nobodies. It makes me wonder if they can grow and develop a heart by the end are they still nobodies. In a sense woulndt that just make them there original selves.
Anyway heart or not how would xion apperance not put sora back into a coma. What would he e made out of. She has no physcal form.

I think one is that it was in a Secret Ansem Report? I think. I vaguely remember a written form of what AtW said at the end of KH3D of anything capable of obtaining a heart...I'll look it up later (after finals:p ), since I maybe be wrong about the report thing.

Ehh, I'm sure Nomura will come up with a crazy but logical idea for Xion to get a body if he decides to revive her.
 

Auron0521

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I would actually be interested on why you exclude Ventus from the list, as he's practically already set as a light.

I've always figured that Aqua and Terra would come to wake Ventus together. Aqua says in the Castle Oblivion scene, "Terra and I will be back to wake up before you know it". And as pretty much the only way to find Ventus' chamber in Castle Oblivion is to have Aqua lead you there, and Terra's still under MX's control (and probably will be until the very end of the Xehanort Saga), well...

I also consider Ventus one of the weakest Keyblade Wielders in the series, so in my mind, despite him being basically a being of pure light, he wouldn't be able to stand up to more than one of the 13 Darknesses. Since there are 7 Lights and 13 Darknesses, unless non-Lights join in the battle as well, that's 2 enemies for every light save the seventh. Of course, that's all just my opinion and not supported in the least by any concrete evidence.

I put Xion in the spot Ventus would have taken as I consider her a strong possibility to be a Light. She was hinted to still exist in some form during DDD, and she would probably be easier to find and save then Ven would, as nobody actually knows HOW to awaken his heart yet.

The rest of my list was decided based on Main Character Status, Keyblade Master Status, or He's Getting Trained By Yen Sid Pretty Much For This Battle Status.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Nomura said, and it's been hinted at throughout the entirety of the series that everything has (or has the potential to grow) a heart

Exactly, I am actually surprised that there are still so many who fail to grasp that after all those hints and it having been spilled out clearly inside the game DDD and by Nomura.
Xion, Naminé and Roxas have, as well as most likely Xemnas, their own hearts that were grown over the time they existed as independent entities.

Where did he say that? All i know for sure is that it has been said that nobodies can grow themselves new hearts.To be more specific i'm assuming it is only specila nobodies. It makes me wonder if they can grow and develop a heart by the end are they still nobodies. In a sense woulndt that just make them there original selves.
Anyway heart or not how would xion apperance not put sora back into a coma. What would he e made out of. She has no physcal form.

It was even said in the game DDD itself that anything can grow a heart if the right circumstances are met, even trees, flowers and dolls.
Nomura only confirmed it again in the Ultimania interviews.
It doesn't apply only to Nobodies. The Riku Replica also had a heart and so has most likely Xion.
Why would Sora suddenly get in a coma when Xion's heart (which contains her consciousness and whole being/personality as well as her own memories, which belong solely to her) is awakened and set free? The reason Sora couldn't awake in Days/KH 2 was because his memories were leeched off by Xion and some of them got also into Roxas due to their connection.
Naminé spills it out to Riku in Days that the main reason that Roxas and Xion must disappear is because they carry a bunch of Sora's memories.
As we can see clearly in DDD it takes not much in order to give someone a physical form at least stable enough to walk around. This might even become a central task for Kairi, as she already helped Sora gaining a physical form back in KH 1. All this holds of course also true for Naminé and Roxas.

Seeing it from this viewpoint, Young Xehanort may after all not be totally off with calling Sora's heart a prison, as for Xion and Roxas it IS a sort of prison where their hearts are held in sleep.

---

Just to give out generally the important parts from game and interviews here they are. Everyone pay especially attention to the things Ansem the Wise explains to Riku.
(Translations are from fellow Forum member Krexia)

Ansem the Wise said:
Ansem the Wise: It's hard to believe, that you would come here.

Riku: DiZ!? No... Ansem the Wise. Why are you here?

Ansem the Wise: Maybe I intended to atone. I know that no matter how much I apologise, I can't be forgiven. I thought if I could at least leave something behind... I turned that research of mine into data, and hid it inside Sora.

[Riku looks at the bottle in his hand.]

Riku: This is... data?

Ansem the Wise: That's right. Maybe it will be a clue for you all, to bring back your lost allies. The heart is something that can be born, and nurtured. To touch the light, to feel nature, to connect to people... the accumulation of these things gives shape to the heart. It's the same even for Nobodies who do not have hearts.

Ansem the Wise: Sora is unique; even though he returned to his own body, he allowed his Nobody to exist as it was. That is the strength of the thoughts of the people connected to his heart, the strength of his heart's connections. I dare say that even if he were to lose that heart, those he is connected to could, with just those vanished hearts and existences, bring it back.

Ansem the Wise: One's treasured things, a silent doll, trees in the forest, flowers that sway in the wind... anything has the potential to carry a heart. You don't need any special ability. That light of the heart that everyone had when they were a child - simple, honest thoughts - that is the strength of a pure heart, in which Sora believes and cannot doubt.

Ansem the Wise: If someone feels a heart there, a heart exists. Even if a heart is lost, maybe it can once again be connected. Up to this point, he has felt, accepted, and saved many hearts. And now the many hearts that sleep within Sora's heart have fallen into darkness, been stolen by darkness, sleep in darkness. The hearts dissolved in Sora -- to save them, you must act as Sora has up until now, move forward as a heart in order to succeed. His thoughts are the only way. Or to be precise, what is within them.

I bolded some crucial parts but in essence the whole speech of Ansem is pretty important as it gives a very clear view on the nature of hearts in the KH Universe.

Another bit of the stuff that includes also Xion:
Sora and Xigbar about Hearts said:
Sora: You guys, don't you have hearts? Axel, and Roxas, and Naminé -- and that girl -- in the emotions I felt from Roxas, everyone was laughing, and angry -- and sad. The tears they cried are proof of that.

Xigbar: Heh. You've finally realised.

Sora implies that Axel, Naminé, Roxas and Xion (he doesn't know her name, but it's clear he means her) have hearts, and Xigbar confirms it.

Now on to Nomura's bits about the issue in the Ultimania:
Nomura said:
— Before the ending, Riku receives research data from Ansem the Wise. In the next title, will that be the key to bringing back the people who are sleeping inside Sora?

Nomura: You could say it’s the key. That data contains the details explaining the way to connect lost hearts.

---

— It was declared from Ansem the Wise’s own mouth that everything can grow a heart.

Nomura: Yes it was, I thought I’d leave it clear in this title.

Especially the second bit spills it out flatly and on a silver platter. Nomura isn't even vague on this one but very straightforward, which is rather rare for him.

Also this one is old, from the BBS Ultimania, but there Nomura already foreshadowed heavily the stuff we got now confirmed in DDD. The only things missing are the revivals to be actually happening and showcasing the way how it is exactly done.
Nomura said:
-- Ansem the Wise says to Aqua “Everything is born from sleep.” What does this mean?
Nomura: In that scene the ones who are calling for “Sora” are the ones who have already disappeared from the world. But in the world of KH there is no concept of death, that for example they are just sleeping within Sora’s heart. If you can just wake them up, they’ll be able to return to the world, they would be “born from sleep”. That there would be a possibility of this, is what Ansem the Wise is saying. Even Aqua, who isn’t in the realm of light, would be born from sleep.
-- In that case, do the characters we see in that scene have a chance of returning?
Nomura: Yes. The data that Ansem has hidden within Sora is the secret to that revival. When Ansem had become DiZ, and studied the heart and emotions, the results he found he hid within Sora. There are a lot of people who thought that Coded was about finding those results, but that’s not true. The ending of Coded was about finding out that DiZ had done something to Sora, as Namine said, finding out about the data that Ansem hid. What that data is will be revealed in the next game.

I've always figured that Aqua and Terra would come to wake Ventus together. Aqua says in the Castle Oblivion scene, "Terra and I will be back to wake up before you know it". And as pretty much the only way to find Ventus' chamber in Castle Oblivion is to have Aqua lead you there, and Terra's still under MX's control (and probably will be until the very end of the Xehanort Saga), well...

I also consider Ventus one of the weakest Keyblade Wielders in the series, so in my mind, despite him being basically a being of pure light, he wouldn't be able to stand up to more than one of the 13 Darknesses. Since there are 7 Lights and 13 Darknesses, unless non-Lights join in the battle as well, that's 2 enemies for every light save the seventh. Of course, that's all just my opinion and not supported in the least by any concrete evidence.

I put Xion in the spot Ventus would have taken as I consider her a strong possibility to be a Light. She was hinted to still exist in some form during DDD, and she would probably be easier to find and save then Ven would, as nobody actually knows HOW to awaken his heart yet.

The rest of my list was decided based on Main Character Status, Keyblade Master Status, or He's Getting Trained By Yen Sid Pretty Much For This Battle Status.

Well, that's what Aqua wished to happen, it doesn't mean that it has to be that way, as the only people actually needed to save Ventus are Sora and Aqua, and she is actually also only needed to show the way to the Chamber of Waking. The actual rescue lies in Sora's hands.

Good you pointed that out as a personal opinion, as Ventus is certainly not weak at all, it's in fact the opposite if one looks at what he, as the youngest and most handicapped one actually accomplished in BBS. Not to mention his immense speed and agility, Xion is no match for him in an actual all-outgoing fight.
I also don't see how Xion would hold out better at all against two darknesses than Ventus, Sora or Roxas could, who are all roughly at the same power level.

Xion is never even brought into play as a potential light anywhere though, there it's even more likely that Roxas might become a light, cu you know he was born partly from both Sora and Ventus, who are both lights.
Of course Xion still exists inside Sora, she may even have her own, grown heart which is already strongly hinted, but that doesn't bring her any closer into becoming a light of the X-blade at all, unlike Ventus who is already set.

The wildcards we were given by the game itself and Nomura are practically Terra (due to him possibly not being able to fill his spot until the very end), Kairi (due to the secret ending and Nomura mentioning her in the Ultimania), Roxas (due to the opening and him being depicted alongside Kairi in pictures in the Ultimania) and Lea (due to him gaining a Keyblade, although Nomura never mentions him in relation to the lights but that he wants to bring back several people and therefore seeks out the power of the Keyblade).

To say things short, except personal preference on your part obviously I don't see a trait or neccessity logic-wise why a character who is not remembered by anyone and got most of her power by leeching it off others would be chosen as a light over more obvious choices like Roxas, Ventus or Kairi.
 

iLeen

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Ehh? Maybe I was imagining things about the Secret Ansem Reports talking about anything can have a heart, but I did find this:

Secret Ansem Report 3
All living things have hearts, and all hearts hold darkness deep within.

Xion is a "living thing," so I guess the report actually does tie in nicely:3

But I think what I was thinking about instead of the reports was the Nomura interviews Sephiroth0812 posted. Whoops.
 

Nayru's Love

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Xion is a "living thing," so I guess the report actually does tie in nicely:3

Well, it's more like Xion has a heart because she grew one as a result of her friendship with Roxas, not because she's a "living being."

One on one Roxas could have fought on even terms with Xemnas, as he had by then access to Ven's keyblade and therefore enhanced powers.
Nomura pictured Roxas in Days-power level already right behind Xemnas in strength.

Roxas with his full potential, anyways, which could have meant him at full power/two keyblades. Even then, he was below Xemnas.
 

iLeen

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Well, it's more like Xion has a heart because she grew one as a result of her friendship with Roxas, not because she's a "living being."

Yeah, I'm aware of that:] I was just trying to find a connection with what Nomura wrote in the past in the Secret Ansem Report (every living things having hearts) to what he incorporated into the story in 3D (anything can gain a heart due to influences around them). It was a very bad connection I made, but I just wanted to try putting it togetherXD
 

JustSnilloc

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Yeah, I'm aware of that:] I was just trying to find a connection with what Nomura wrote in the past in the Secret Ansem Report (every living things having hearts) to what he incorporated into the story in 3D (anything can gain a heart due to influences around them). It was a very bad connection I made, but I just wanted to try putting it togetherXD

No, it's a good connection. Perhaps just worded a bit off

"All living things have hearts..." - While this is true for living things that should be, Replicas, Nobodies, and things like Sentiments aren't things that should be- Thus that rule doesn't apply

However, since all living things have the potential to grow a heart and since Replicas and Nobodies function incredibly similar to normal beings, it's not too hard to imagine how they are capable of growing hearts
 

iLeen

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No, it's a good connection. Perhaps just worded a bit off

"All living things have hearts..." - While this is true for living things that should be, Replicas, Nobodies, and things like Sentiments aren't things that should be- Thus that rule doesn't apply

However, since all living things have the potential to grow a heart and since Replicas and Nobodies function incredibly similar to normal beings, it's not too hard to imagine how they are capable of growing hearts

Ahaha. Yeah, I'm not good at the subject English, so of course I'm not good at writing or wording my sentences clearlyX]

I like your explanation betterXD
 

Sephiroth0812

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Ehh? Maybe I was imagining things about the Secret Ansem Reports talking about anything can have a heart, but I did find this:

Xion is a "living thing," so I guess the report actually does tie in nicely:3

But I think what I was thinking about instead of the reports was the Nomura interviews Sephiroth0812 posted. Whoops.

That counts as an early hint too, obviously. The stuff I posted were mainly from Coded, BBS and DDD, but yours dates even further back to the times of KH2, showing that this was indeed a longer running theme, but apparently many fans and followers of KH dismissed i as more metaphorically but now in DDD we learn that all that hinting had been meant literally.
I now even found another incident way back in Chain of Memories where the "Sora sees them as their own people"-theme was already hinted a way before Ansem the Wise made now the explanation using Roxas as example.

I can't believe I was so blind until now and didn't realize Nomura already pointed that out this early. We probably didn't give it much thought because Sora normally isn't the guy to speak out and understand all the mystery stuff in KH, but if you take this following conversation and include Naminé, Roxas, Xion beside the Riku Replica you'll realize that, with the stuff explained by Ansem now in DDD (and also what Xemnas said!) it holds true for all of them:

Re: CoM said:
Sora: You okay, Riku?

Riku Replica: Not Riku. I'm a fake. I can't remember why I was created or where or when... All that's inside of me---is time with you and Naminé. But I know those memories are not real.

Goofy: Gee, Naminé, can't you use your magic to put Riku's memory back to normal?

Naminé: Well, I---

Riku Replica: It's all right. I'll deal.
(He begins to walk away)

Sora: Wait! Who cares if someone created you? You are you and nobody else. You have your own heart inside you. Those feelings and memories are yours and yours alone. They're special!

See that last part I bolded? It's practically an extended version of what Roxas later says to Riku in Deep Dive and when he snaps at Ansem the Wise in KH2's prologue that his heart belongs to him.
It is the same thing already spilled out in Chain of Memories, it applies also to them. The feelings and memories Naminé, Roxas and Xion created themselves in their lives are theirs and theirs alone, they don't belong to Sora but to them!!!

That was also again put out in Coded:
Re: Coded: said:
Namine: No. This isn't your memory, Sora. It's somebody else's, connected to you.

---
(Hazy images of Roxas and Axel appear suspended in the air.)

Namine: The hidden truth... This was hidden deep down at the bottom of your heart, Sora. It's not really your memory, Sora, but it is connected to you.

It's like a red thread that was sewn through the whole series, but Xemnas' lies to the Organisation itself and DiZ's prejudiced views apparently have not only fooled the Org members but also many of us players.

And to put it further:
Re: CoM said:
Naminé: Goodbye. Sora: No, not goodbye! When I wake up, I'll find you. And then there will be no lies. We're gonna be friends for real. Promise me, Naminé.

There Sora says he'll find Naminé and then they'll become friends for real. Why would Sora say that if Naminé would be just a mere part of Kairi? He IS already friends with Kairi, so that clearly means that Sora sees Naminé as an entity different from Kairi, just like now in DDD he sees Roxas as an entity different from himself.


Well, it's more like Xion has a heart because she grew one as a result of her friendship with Roxas, not because she's a "living being."

Roxas with his full potential, anyways, which could have meant him at full power/two keyblades. Even then, he was below Xemnas.

While that is no doubt a huge contributing factor, it isn't the only one. Being friends with Roxas alone wouldn't have Xion grow an full heart. As Ansem put it, several factors come into play when a new heart sprouts, so I would also strongly include the connections and interactions Xion made with other characters like Axel, Pete and Genie in Agrabah etc. as contributing factors as well.

That still won't make your listing right because you put Sora above Xemnas which is illogical, as Sora and Roxas are roughly on the same power level anyways and Sora would have lost his battle against Roxas if the guy wouldn't have become overconfident just because he knocked Sora's Keyblade away.

Yeah, I'm aware of that:] I was just trying to find a connection with what Nomura wrote in the past in the Secret Ansem Report (every living things having hearts) to what he incorporated into the story in 3D (anything can gain a heart due to influences around them). It was a very bad connection I made, but I just wanted to try putting it togetherXD

It's actually a good connection, since your point made me go back and look in the older games for clues as well and look above what I found, lol.

EDIT: Always this stupid forum software and it's problems with long posts, lol.

No, it's a good connection. Perhaps just worded a bit off

"All living things have hearts..." - While this is true for living things that should be, Replicas, Nobodies, and things like Sentiments aren't things that should be- Thus that rule doesn't apply

However, since all living things have the potential to grow a heart and since Replicas and Nobodies function incredibly similar to normal beings, it's not too hard to imagine how they are capable of growing hearts

Ahaa, and who decides which living things "should be"? It's pretty clear that DiZ was so prejudiced and antagonistic towards this new type of being (called Nobodies) that an objective opinion from him is closely to impossible, especially when we look again how degrading and spiteful he treated Naminé and Roxas.
Not to mention Xemnas' and Xigbar's big web of lies they wrapped around the whole issue.
Even Yen Sid seemed to be partly fooled by the whole conspiracy that was build around the Nobodies.
Although one has to give him the benefit of the doubt that, in saying that Nobodies have no feelings Yen Sid was partly right, since they start out like this and without hearts.
 

JustSnilloc

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Ahaa, and who decides which living things "should be"?

Not "who", but "what". When things and beings are as they "should be" they are the way they are "naturally".

The Keyblade is a weapon of phenomenal and supernatural power, but not just a weapon, a tool as well. In the hands of a master the keyblade can surpass the laws of the natural leaving unnatural results in it's wake- These unnatural results shouldn't be. The heartless and the nobody: These are a result of the keyblade surpassing the natural to make things that shouldn't be. Therefore, as beings that exist outside the natural, they can't be expected to behave the same as things that "should be"
 
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