Couple of plot questions - oh god my brain hurts :I



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS

Leonard

Married to Crimson ♥
Joined
May 17, 2007
Messages
2,391
Age
26
Location
Germany
Heyo, so I recently finished the game and holy balls did it take me some time (and multiple khwiki-entries) to wrap my head around the plot. The last time I had to spend this much time on an ending was Bioshock Infinite. =_='
There are still some things I haven't quite found an answer for yet, and I wanted to ask if maybe you guys can help me out there:

1. Xehanort stated in the BBS secret ending that he had many paths/roads laid out for himself to achieve his goals, even if Terra's body doesn't work out for him. And the whole theme of 3D seems to be that "Xehanort planned it all along". However, I'm not quite sure as to what Master Xehanort actually DID foresee throughout the series from KH1 on. I mean, wasn't it Xehanort's Heartless who decided to go back in time and gather all the incarnations? Wasn't that his plan alone? As far as I'm concerned, MX faded from existence after Aqua fought Terra-Xehanort at Radiant Garden. Wouldn't Xehanort's Heartless technically be the overarching villain of the series? This kind of makes MX seem rather insignificant in comparison.

2. How much of Sora's journeys were foreseen by the antagonists? In 3D they make it sound like every one of Sora's steps was meant to lead up to him running into their trap at the end of that game, but how would they have known that Terra and Aqua secretly bestowed their keyblades upon two random children? I mean, technically no one should have known about that, yet Xehanorts Heartless was there to trigger Destiny Island's descent into darkness at the beginning of KH1, as if he had gathered all that information some time between BBS and KH1. Was Sora really a pawn of Xehanort's through all of his journeys?

3. In line with this, doesn't Sora (or Riku) being the chosen one of the keyblade, as he is often referred to throughout the series, lose a lot of weight? I mean apparently everyone and their mom is having a keyblade these days (see: Axel) - it was always portrayed in KH1 as if it were some old prophecy, a legend of a miraculous savior with the one weapon of the Realm of Light who can save everybody. Something significant that only this one kid can do. Was that just something exclusive to the earlier games or is there actually something that sets the Kingdom Key apart from other keyblades?

4. Lastly, what the hell what is up with the Armored Ventus Nightmare. Was there ever any explanation on why that was there? I mean goddammit Nomura, teasing us with awesome shit that actually has no real plot significance. Just like the Anti Black Coat Nightmare that was basically just another nightmare. It's epic and all, but sometimes this just feels like mindless spectacle so that they can hype people up in trailers.

Thanks a bunch!
 

Dandelion

KHI Site Staff
Staff member
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
3,503
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • Keyblade Champion
  • O, Purest of Hearts
  • Key of Destiny
  • Savage Nymph
  • Come So Far
1. Xehanort stated in the BBS secret ending that he had many paths/roads laid out for himself to achieve his goals, even if Terra's body doesn't work out for him. And the whole theme of 3D seems to be that "Xehanort planned it all along". However, I'm not quite sure as to what Master Xehanort actually DID foresee throughout the series from KH1 on. I mean, wasn't it Xehanort's Heartless who decided to go back in time and gather all the incarnations? Wasn't that his plan alone? As far as I'm concerned, MX faded from existence after Aqua fought Terra-Xehanort at Radiant Garden. Wouldn't Xehanort's Heartless technically be the overarching villain of the series? This kind of makes MX seem rather insignificant in comparison.
I don't see how, they all come from the same source. Master Xehanort probably shares some consciousness with his other selves. They're not all independent from each other, seeing as how his heartless and his nobody were both needed to recomplete the original.

Keep in mind, Xehanort had planned many of the things his other selves accomplished before possessing Terra.

2. How much of Sora's journeys were foreseen by the antagonists? In 3D they make it sound like every one of Sora's steps was meant to lead up to him running into their trap at the end of that game, but how would they have known that Terra and Aqua secretly bestowed their keyblades upon two random children? I mean, technically no one should have known about that, yet Xehanorts Heartless was there to trigger Destiny Island's descent into darkness at the beginning of KH1, as if he had gathered all that information some time between BBS and KH1. Was Sora really a pawn of Xehanort's through all of his journeys?
Even he said he couldn't foresee everything. Some things were foresight and good guessing - like knowing Riku's journey, some of it was just exploiting relationships once he got to certain points. Sora was always a bit of a wildcard, so much of Xehanort's plot with Sora rested on his relationship with Kairi. Xehanort sent Kairi into the sea of worlds originally in order to find the next generation of Keyblade wielders, because he believed the princesses and the Keybladers go hand-in-hand. Turns out he wasn't wrong.

3. In line with this, doesn't Sora (or Riku) being the chosen one of the keyblade, as he is often referred to throughout the series, lose a lot of weight? I mean apparently everyone and their mom is having a keyblade these days (see: Axel) - it was always portrayed in KH1 as if it were some old prophecy, a legend of a miraculous savior with the one weapon of the Realm of Light who can save everybody. Something significant that only this one kid can do. Was that just something exclusive to the earlier games or is there actually something that sets the Kingdom Key apart from other keyblades?
This question always pops up between games, and it's always frustrating. The Keyblade was never depicted as a one-time-thing. In the first game alone we see three of them. It's still incredibly rare, and before Sora got his Keyblade there wasn't anyone else, that we know of, running around the realm of light and sealing the keyholes. The keyblade wielders we've seen since then were either in the past, or byproducts of Sora. Lea and Kairi have been brought up to plate because of necessity, even with a few more wielders the guardians of light had trouble coming up with a full roster. Don't worry, the Keyblade is still rare and still important.

4. Lastly, what the hell what is up with the Armored Ventus Nightmare. Was there ever any explanation on why that was there? I mean goddammit Nomura, teasing us with awesome shit that actually has no real plot significance. Just like the Anti Black Coat Nightmare that was basically just another nightmare. It's epic and all, but sometimes this just feels like mindless spectacle so that they can hype people up in trailers.
I should think it was fairly obvious. Ven's heart came to Sora's rescue when Sora fell to darkness, unfortunately it didn't stop the darkness completely. Sora's own darkness possessing Ven's armor was what you fought, Ven's armor kept it from getting worse, but one could argue it also kept it from getting better. The armor is capable of keeping darkness from coming in but as we see with Terra in Birth by Sleep it can also keep it from getting out.
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,222
Location
Germany
  • Cloaked Schemer
  • Taciturn Stalwart
  • Chilly Academic
  • Whirlwind Lancer
  • Ever Gentle and Kind
  • Fairest of them All
Heyo, so I recently finished the game and holy balls did it take me some time (and multiple khwiki-entries) to wrap my head around the plot. The last time I had to spend this much time on an ending was Bioshock Infinite. =_='
There are still some things I haven't quite found an answer for yet, and I wanted to ask if maybe you guys can help me out there:

1. Xehanort stated in the BBS secret ending that he had many paths/roads laid out for himself to achieve his goals, even if Terra's body doesn't work out for him. And the whole theme of 3D seems to be that "Xehanort planned it all along". However, I'm not quite sure as to what Master Xehanort actually DID foresee throughout the series from KH1 on. I mean, wasn't it Xehanort's Heartless who decided to go back in time and gather all the incarnations? Wasn't that his plan alone? As far as I'm concerned, MX faded from existence after Aqua fought Terra-Xehanort at Radiant Garden. Wouldn't Xehanort's Heartless technically be the overarching villain of the series? This kind of makes MX seem rather insignificant in comparison.

2. How much of Sora's journeys were foreseen by the antagonists? In 3D they make it sound like every one of Sora's steps was meant to lead up to him running into their trap at the end of that game, but how would they have known that Terra and Aqua secretly bestowed their keyblades upon two random children? I mean, technically no one should have known about that, yet Xehanorts Heartless was there to trigger Destiny Island's descent into darkness at the beginning of KH1, as if he had gathered all that information some time between BBS and KH1. Was Sora really a pawn of Xehanort's through all of his journeys?

3. In line with this, doesn't Sora (or Riku) being the chosen one of the keyblade, as he is often referred to throughout the series, lose a lot of weight? I mean apparently everyone and their mom is having a keyblade these days (see: Axel) - it was always portrayed in KH1 as if it were some old prophecy, a legend of a miraculous savior with the one weapon of the Realm of Light who can save everybody. Something significant that only this one kid can do. Was that just something exclusive to the earlier games or is there actually something that sets the Kingdom Key apart from other keyblades?

4. Lastly, what the hell what is up with the Armored Ventus Nightmare. Was there ever any explanation on why that was there? I mean goddammit Nomura, teasing us with awesome shit that actually has no real plot significance. Just like the Anti Black Coat Nightmare that was basically just another nightmare. It's epic and all, but sometimes this just feels like mindless spectacle so that they can hype people up in trailers.

Thanks a bunch!
For 1:
It's not like Xehanort "planned it all along" to happen exactly like it did.
The events of KH 1 and KH 2 were backup plans in case his plans in BBS fail/get derailed (which they did) while the whole plan of Dream Drop Distance including all the time travel stuff was another backup plan in case the stuff from KH 1 and KH 2 would fail.

While Ansem SoD and Xemnas have their own minds and their own short term personal agendas, in the end there are working for Master Xehanort in terms of overall long term goals the whole time.
After the events of BBS fail to provide Xehanort with what he wants, his accomplice Braig sets in motion the backup plans which eventually result in Ansem SoD and Xemnas being created and kickstarts the events of KH 1 and 2 (and by proxy those of CoM and Days).
Then the whole plan of DDD is yet another back up plan in case the KH 1/2-plans fail. If Xehanort had been successful in the earlier plans, there would have been no need to sent Young Xehanort on his time travel session.

For 2:
Xehanort himself says that he did not foresee everything. That Riku was chosen by Terra Xehanort knows from Terra's memories, as Nomura indicates in one of his interviews:
Birth by Sleep Ultimania said:
-- In "KHI", the robed man, Ansem the Wise's apprentice Xehanort's Heartless (the body of Xehanort's Heartless before he inhabited Riku's body), appeared on the Destiny Islands. Is this because it was Master Xehanort's homeworld?
Nomura: That may be one reason, but if he somehow had some of Terra's memories, we can consider that it might be because he had laid eyes on Riku previously. In terms of the elements of Terra and Master Xehanort, I think the questions of how their power is related and divided, as well as who has whose memories and heart, will become a key to the story * after this one.
-- Is that to say that there's a possibility that within Xehanort's Heartless, the darkness that sleeps in Riku's heart, there might remain something of Terra...?
Nomura: That's also a riddle connected to the next story,* so everyone please use your imagination.
It has been confirmed that Xemnas holds a mixture of Apprentice Xehanort's, Master Xehanort's and Terra's memories (possibly even some from Eraqus) and he continued to regain more memories by visiting the Chamber of Repose. Ansem SoD may be in a similar situation in that he has memories from both Xehanort and Terra.
The whole Terra/Xehanort/Eraqus-mess and how all that works together is still a mystery that is deliberately left by the creators.
As for Aqua accidentally chosing Kairi as a wielder, as far as we know only Yen Sid, Mickey and Riku know that she is a wielder up to now, Aqua herself doesn't know she accidentally performed the ceremony with Kairi and Xehanort doesn't know about it as well.

No, Sora was actually not even a blip on Xehanort's radar until Dream Drop Distance, as he had always his sights set on Riku. It's only when they realize that Riku is totally immune to darknes (as Young Xehanort states in-game) that they finally set their sight on Sora.
The first wanted to use Riku, then Roxas, then again Riku and only then they settled on Sora as their primary target.
From how Master Xehanort himself decribes it, it doesn't seem that he actually regarded Sora as anything important at all in the beginning: "that dull, ordinary boy".

For 3:
That's a common misconception. There were already multiple Keyblades in the very first game and Nomura outright states in the Ultimania of KH 1 that there are "other Keyblade Masters" out there.
That notion that Sora is somehow unique pertains only to the fact that he didn't receive the Keyblade ceremony and was instead chosen by the Keyblade itself.
As far as we know, the KIngdom Key isn't anything special. It's just a Keyblade of the Realm of Light just like most of the others. There are only three Keyblades who are "special" in some way and these are Mickey's Kingdom Key D (only special in origin, since it's one of the rare Realm of Darkness-Keyblades), the Keyblade of People's Hearts (Riku's dark one from KH1, one of the even rarer third family of Keyblades, the Keyblades of Heart) and of course the X-blade itself, the "Master key" of which all other Keyblades are just cheap copies.

For 4:
The explanation was given within the game (Riku and Ansem the Wise talk about it, it's also in the Journal). When Sora's heart was damaged and sinking into darkness, Ven's heart shielded him by lending Sora his armor. So the darkness eventually did possess the armor instead of Sora. Without Ven's armor diverting the Nightmare and the darkness, there would not have been any Sora for Riku to save.
The Anti-Black Coat on the other hand is just the nature of the Dream Eaters coming full circle. If you look closely you see that the ABC has the same height and battle-stance as Riku and its Nightmare-symbol is at the exact same place on its back where Riku has his spirit-symbol since he took on the role of a Dream Eater.
The ABC is simply the Nightmare-counterpart to the "Riku"-Spirit Dream Eater. Just as every other normal Dream Eater has a Spirit and Nightmare version, Riku has this as well.
 
Last edited:

Oracle Spockanort

the only villain on staff
Staff member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
31,961
Age
27
Location
California
Website
twitter.com
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • 15th Anniversary
  • Just Short of the Mark
  • Advanced Chain of Memories
  • Beauty Within
  • No Name
1. Xehanort stated in the BBS secret ending that he had many paths/roads laid out for himself to achieve his goals, even if Terra's body doesn't work out for him. And the whole theme of 3D seems to be that "Xehanort planned it all along". However, I'm not quite sure as to what Master Xehanort actually DID foresee throughout the series from KH1 on. I mean, wasn't it Xehanort's Heartless who decided to go back in time and gather all the incarnations? Wasn't that his plan alone? As far as I'm concerned, MX faded from existence after Aqua fought Terra-Xehanort at Radiant Garden. Wouldn't Xehanort's Heartless technically be the overarching villain of the series? This kind of makes MX seem rather insignificant in comparison.
First off, Xehanort did not vanish after Aqua fought Terranort. We see that in Blank Points where Terra and Xehanort chatting it out inside of Apprentice Xehanort. During this time, they are playing a metaphysical game of tug-o-war inside of Apprentice Xehanort, fighting for control over their combined hearts. It is implied that Xehanort held the most influence over the body.

[video=youtube;YB1Wt3hU8fk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB1Wt3hU8fk[/video]

[video=youtube;tdCOC8nuw28]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdCOC8nuw28[/video]

(beginning of both videos)

Splitting himself into Heartless & Nobody was definitely one of the many paths Xehanort had planned.

At the end of KH2 when Sora & Riku defeat Xemnas, this is when Xemnas & Xehanort's Heartless are united again and bring back Master Xehanort. Not Terranort/Apprentice Xehanort, but the Master Xehanort we see at the end of Kingdom Hearts 3D because he is the most present Xehanort.

Xehanort's Heartless might have been the one to gather the others, but this was always at the behest of Master Xehanort who had planned this "Reunion" when they had finally reached the appropriate number of vessels to implement their plans.

2. How much of Sora's journeys were foreseen by the antagonists? In 3D they make it sound like every one of Sora's steps was meant to lead up to him running into their trap at the end of that game, but how would they have known that Terra and Aqua secretly bestowed their keyblades upon two random children? I mean, technically no one should have known about that, yet Xehanorts Heartless was there to trigger Destiny Island's descent into darkness at the beginning of KH1, as if he had gathered all that information some time between BBS and KH1. Was Sora really a pawn of Xehanort's through all of his journeys?
Xehanort didn't know that they had done a bequeathal on Riku or Kairi. They just so happened to fall into the plan when certain circumstances about them came into the light. Apprentice Xehanort knew Kairi was a Princess of Heart because her heart was devoid of Darkness, and so he decided to send her out into the sea of worlds (the Lanes Between) to see is she would guide the way to a Keyblade wielder. The problem is that Xehanort had no clue that Aqua had also cast a protection spell on Kairi where it helped to send her to a safe place.

That place just so happened to have Riku, Terra's chosen.

---Then I would like to ask several questions about the story you changed. First, was Kairi’s arrival to Destiny Islands a coincidence or fate?
Nomura: It’s both. I was not able to illustrate it in the story itself. It is a delicate subject whether or not it is okay to talk about her life situation, but Ansem himself sent out Kairi from Hollow Bastion. The reason why he sent out Kairi was to find the Keyblade. In the End of the The World’s prison, there is a is evidence that is left behind. Ansem believed that the young princess would end up where the Keyblade was no matter what. Thus the event of Kairi joining Sora and Riku is a coincidence and fate.

Kingdom Hearts Ultimania - Tetsuya Nomura Scenario Mysteries Interview
Xehanort didn't know what was going to happen, but he had planned enough that he could essentially manipulate things into how he wanted them to happen. They didn't always happen that way, and there were people like Sora & Riku who weren't part of the initial plan but he made sure to work them in when he decided they were important parts of his plan.

In KH3D, they were monitoring Sora by marking him with the Recusant's Sigil and knew when and where to manipulate with him to lead him down the path of Darkness so they could make him a vessel because of that sigil.

3. In line with this, doesn't Sora (or Riku) being the chosen one of the keyblade, as he is often referred to throughout the series, lose a lot of weight? I mean apparently everyone and their mom is having a keyblade these days (see: Axel) - it was always portrayed in KH1 as if it were some old prophecy, a legend of a miraculous savior with the one weapon of the Realm of Light who can save everybody. Something significant that only this one kid can do. Was that just something exclusive to the earlier games or is there actually something that sets the Kingdom Key apart from other keyblades?
Sora was never the chosen, but many people like Leon & Maleficent assumed.

And no, it was never said in Kingdom Hearts that there was only ONE keyblade. Only that it was a rare weapon and few are chosen to wield it. In fact:

---Does that mean there are other Keyblade masters?
Nomura: Well, there are other Keyblade masters, but coincidentally for now, Kairi happened to arrive to the world Riku and Sora are in.

Kingdom Hearts Ultimania - Tetsuya Nomura Scenario Mysteries Interview
4. Lastly, what the hell what is up with the Armored Ventus Nightmare. Was there ever any explanation on why that was there? I mean goddammit Nomura, teasing us with awesome shit that actually has no real plot significance. Just like the Anti Black Coat Nightmare that was basically just another nightmare. It's epic and all, but sometimes this just feels like mindless spectacle so that they can hype people up in trailers.
When Sora began falling into Darkness, Ventus' heart decided to try to protect him as a last defense. Sadly, the Darkness was too strong and possessed of the armored form Ven's heart decided to take around Sora's heart. It was pretty self-explanatory.

This boss battle was added later on in development, initially they planned to have Young Xehanort as the final boss. Probably to keep the ending from being so long.
 
Top