• Hello everybody! We have tons of new awards for the new year that can be requested through our Awards System thanks to Antifa Lockhart! Some are limited-time awards so go claim them before they are gone forever...

    CLICK HERE FOR AWARDS

Connection:Ven/Sora/Roxas and Unbirths??



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ven's keyblade

New member
Joined
Sep 24, 2008
Messages
117
Age
33
Just to let you know this is kind of far-fetched and wild.


I think I've done it. I think I've answered some of the greatest questions of the Kingdom Hearts series. And yes they are connected.

First off the connection between Aqua and Ven. From the videos it seems that they are like Sora and Kairi. Like they have a crush or something. I could see why, but I think that maybe they're brothers and sisters. Now before you go off saying " Kingdom Heats doesn't focus on family" I mean that they grew up together. Maybe both of them were orphans of their worlds and when they found out each other were orphans I think they became close. And if you think about it SKR are like this except not orphans ( or at least not Sora i guess) but grew up close to each other.

Another question is the Unbirths:what are they. I think they are the ultimate vessels. The way I see they may be one of a few things. One possile thing are wadering souls inhabiting lifeless things ( i.e. neddles and pins) I'm not sure if they say if souls alone go to Kingdom Hearts as well. Maybe they start going there but sense a lifeless body or object nearby and take control of it. Also, I bet many people are wondering how are they made. I think they may be made from corrupted light saving people from turning in to heartless for good. Like when Kairi saved Sora frokm the dark I think when she saved him being a Princess of Heart and having only light in her herat I think her heart made Roxas an Unbirth(I'll talk about this later) So this influences them to become beings of light but the darkness they are made in or around either corrupts them or gives them the ability to use darkness. This would also explain why Nomura says heartless or nobody didn't exist back then and why MX wants them.
Now here comes a really big one:Roxas Ven and Sora. Ok as we know Ven and Roxas look alike and are related somehow. And I do belive they are the same. I think that Roxas is Ven (meaning Ven came first) but what's different is that they weren't created at different imes. As we know Roxas and Ven are keyblade wieders. (This has to do with the previous question) As we Roxas was created when Sora became a heartless, but Kairi a being with pure light in her heart saved him using that light. What I think this means is that the light in Kairi released someting inside Sora:Ven. When Ven gets defeated by Mx he's frozen alive (if this happens in the game). I think before the battle Ven tells Aqua that he wants her to take his and put it in vessel he created-Sora-,but only if something should happen to him. When she put Ven's soul and heart in Sora she made it so he could live his own life but Ven would still be alive (in a way). So in other words this means Sora is an Unbirth. Aqua decided to put Ven where he could be safe- the future Castle Oblivion. Now when Kairi's pure light saved Sora from the darkness Ven's heart and soul were free. As they were about to go into wherever they go Ven's heart and soul can feel his body. When they get back to their body they don't have their memory. This could either mean Ven's memories are still stuck in Sora(which would explain why Roxas seems to regain his memories and says "you make a good other" as he gets around Sora) or the darkness made him lose his memories(if it's possible).

Now here comes another big question why does Ven want to be erased? I think this is because each warrior of one keyblade generation controls a realm. I think Terra is Darkness, Aqua is light, and Ven is inbetween. Now as I said earlier the Unbirths are basically corrupted light and Terra is in control of darkness. Ven fights for the light but he's actually fighting the light and he figt the darkness and yet fighting with it. Why is this so bad? He's completely going against what he belives in. He's inbetween. I thin he feels as though he has to choose between the two and is afraid he'll make a mistake. This is why he asks Aqua to erase him better to be destroyed by the light instead of the dark and to be deatroyed or whatever it is by a person he considers family. This would also explain why Ven is most of the time seen getting beat around because he's lost the will to fight.
 
Last edited:

blacksamurai2

Bronze Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
1,236
wow your hand must be bleeding.

Ven did not create Sora,Sora was 4 at that time
Sora is not an unbirth
 

Diomedes

I aim to misbehave
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
1,167
Location
Metal Gear?!
Just to let you know this is kind of far-fetched and wild.

Yes, it is.


I think I've done it. I think I've answered some of the greatest questions of the Kingdom Hearts series. And yes they are connected.

I think you haven't.


First off the connection between Aqua and Ven. From the videos it seems that they are like Sora and Kairi. Like they have a crush or something.

Except Sora and Kairi don't. Sora and Riku do.

I could see why, but I think that maybe they're brothers and sisters. Now before you go off saying " Kingdom Heats doesn't focus on family" I mean that they grew up together. Maybe both of them were orphans of their worlds and when they found out each other were orphans I think they became close. And if you think about it SKR are like this except not orphans ( or at least not Sora i guess) but grew up close to each other.

Possibly, but wether or not they are orphans probably isn't going to be all that important.

Another question is the Unbirths:what are they. I think they are the ultimate vessels. The way I see they may be one of a few things. One possile thing are wadering souls inhabiting lifeless things ( i.e. neddles and pins) I'm not sure if they say if souls alone go to Kingdom Hearts as well. Maybe they start going there but sense a lifeless body or object nearby and take control of it.

And where would these souls come from? Whole beings? Maybe, but what of the heart and body?

Also, I bet many people are wondering how are they made. I think they may be made from corrupted light saving people from turning in to heartless for good.

Heartless didn't appear until a year after BBS.

Like when Kairi saved Sora frokm the dark I think when she saved him being a Princess of Heart and having only light in her herat I think her heart made Roxas an Unbirth(I'll talk about this later)

Your explanation for the Unbirths creation counters this, and we know Roxas is a Nobody. a special Nobody, but a Nobody.

So this influences them to become beings of light but the darkness they are made in or around either corrupts them or gives them the ability to use darkness. This would also explain why Nomura says heartless or nobody didn't exist back then and why MX wants them.

The Ansem reports explain why heartless didn't exist until they did. And what does MX want? The Unbirths? Where was this stated? Last I checked, the only thing MX wants is for his mistake to be fixed.

Now here comes a really big one:Roxas Ven and Sora. Ok as we know Ven and Roxas look alike and are related somehow. And I do belive they are the same. I think that Roxas is Ven (meaning Ven came first) but what's different is that they weren't created at different imes.

Except Ven was born at least 20-some years before Roxas' non-existance began.

As we know Roxas and Ven are keyblade wieders. (This has to do with the previous question)

roxas only because hes Sora's nobody.

As we Roxas was created when Sora became a heartless, but Kairi a being with pure light in her heart saved him using that light. What I think this means is that the light in Kairi released someting inside Sora:Ven.

So Ven just sits there and does nothing for the end of one game and the entire of the next two?

When Ven gets defeated by Mx he's frozen alive (if this happens in the game). I think before the battle Ven tells Aqua that he wants her to take his and put it in vessel he created-Sora-,but only if something should happen to him.

Sora was already 4 at teh time.

When she put Ven's soul and heart in Sora she made it so he could live his own life but Ven would still be alive (in a way). So in other words this means Sora is an Unbirth.

But Sora was already alive, according to you, Unbirths possess non-living things.

Aqua decided to put Ven where he could be safe- the future Castle Oblivion. Now when Kairi's pure light saved Sora from the darkness Ven's heart and soul were free. As they were about to go into wherever they go Ven's heart and soul can feel his body. When they get back to their body they don't have their memory. This could either mean Ven's memories are still stuck in Sora(which would explain why Roxas seems to regain his memories and says "you make a good other" as he gets around Sora) or the darkness made him lose his memories(if it's possible).

Roxas was made from Sora's body, not Ven's. and even if there did happen to be a corpse lying around CO, you would think we would have seen it, having gone through every floor of the castle. And as for "You make a good other", I think Roxas was just saying that Sora is a good person, or something similar to that.


Now here comes another big question why does Ven want to be erased? I think this is because each warrior of one keyblade generation controls a realm. I think Terra is Darkness, Aqua is light, and Ven is inbetween.

Control of each realm? I doubt it. But I can see where you got the T = D, V = Twilight, and A = L.

Now as I said earlier the Unbirths are basically corrupted light <I got this from another thread so I would like to give recognition to that person> and Terra is in control of darkness. Ven fights for the light but he's actually fighting the light and he figt the darkness and yet fighting with it. Why is this so bad? He's completely going against what he belives in. He's inbetween.

Riku is in the same situation, but he has no problem being stuck between light and dark.

I thin he feels as though he has to choose between the two and is afraid he'll make a mistake. This is why he asks Aqua to erase him better to be destroyed by the light instead of the dark and to be deatroyed or whatever it is by a person he considers family. This would also explain why Ven is most of the time seen getting beat around because he's lost the will to fight.

Maybe, but when have we seen him getting beaten around having lost the will to fight? FM+ Secret Ending? Sure, he geats beat around in it, but he didn't lose the will to fight. He would have started the fight had Terra not held him back.
 

Muse

you look atrocious
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
4,052
Age
29
Okay... that took a while to read. Please fix it so that it's easier, kays?

Anyways, although it's a nice theory, I doubt its plausibility.

1) Ven couldn't have created Sora, Sora was already alive by the time Ven and Terra visit DI. In fact, he's play-sword-fighting with Riku when Terra and Ven are there.
2) I don't think the Keyblade Masters control realms. We have no evidence of any of them doing this at all and it doesn't make sense.
3) Aqua couldn't have put Ven's heart and soul into Sora. I mean, I know a lot of people are saying that now, but I highly doubt that in Kingdom Hearts, Sora was running around with three hearts.
4) When does Ven seem beat down? I mean, aside from that scene in DI where he asks Aqua to erase him. Other than that, the scenes that I've seen he seems to act like Sora would. ie: Cheerful, adventurous, curious.

I may be wrong, so if someone could correct me, I'd appreciate it.
 

keybladelegacy

~*Youll be my Living Legacy~*KBL
Joined
Oct 15, 2008
Messages
3,056
Age
29
Location
Eternal Darkness
Website
www.landofdeparture.webs.com
Just to let you know this is kind of far-fetched and wild.


I think I've done it. I think I've answered some of the greatest questions of the Kingdom Hearts series. And yes they are connected.

I doubt it but i'll hear you out

First off the connection between Aqua and Ven. From the videos it seems that they are like Sora and Kairi. Like they have a crush or something. I could see why, but I think that maybe they're brothers and sisters. Now before you go off saying " Kingdom Heats doesn't focus on family" I mean that they grew up together.
What them being brother and sister has too do with anything maybe they grew up together like you said. Some think kairi and sora has something between them and some think sora and namine has something between them.

Maybe both of them were orphans of their worlds and when they found out each other were orphans I think they became close. And if you think about it SKR are like this except not orphans ( or at least not Sora i guess) but grew up close to each other
I think all VAT are close.

Another question is the Unbirths:what are they. I think they are the ultimate vessels.
What????

The way I see they may be one of a few things. One possile thing are wadering souls inhabiting lifeless things ( i.e. neddles and pins) I'm not sure if they say if souls alone go to Kingdom Hearts as well. Maybe they start going there but sense a lifeless body or object nearby and take control of it. Also, I bet many people are wondering how are they made. I think they may be made from corrupted light saving people from turning in to heartless for good. Like when Kairi saved Sora frokm the dark I think when she saved him being a Princess of Heart and having only light in her herat
How can light be corrupted. If darkness takes over light then it consumes it right(because in the game the darkness consumes the heart,body,and soul) so i dont think light can be corrupted.

I think her heart made Roxas an Unbirth(I'll talk about this later)
Um.... Where have you been roxas was created from sora hearts and his body and soul. He joined the organization which is all nobodies. He is stated that he is a special nobody. He fuses with sora at the in of Kh 2 and when Diz turned him into data. Nomura says that roxas is soras nobody. As far as we know unbirth doesnt exist after bbs. Please think about this again.

So this influences them to become beings of light but the darkness they are made in or around either corrupts them or gives them the ability to use darkness. This would also explain why Nomura says heartless or nobody didn't exist back then and why MX wants them.
Like i said the darkness would just consume the light. Unless im wrong.

Now here comes a really big one:Roxas Ven and Sora. Ok as we know Ven and Roxas look alike and are related somehow. And I do belive they are the same. I think that Roxas is Ven (meaning Ven came first) but what's different is that they weren't created at different imes. As we know Roxas and Ven are keyblade wieders. (This has to do with the previous question) As we Roxas was created when Sora became a heartless, but Kairi a being with pure light in her heart saved him using that light. What I think this means is that the light in Kairi released someting inside Sora:Ven. When Ven gets defeated by Mx he's frozen alive (if this happens in the game). I think before the battle Ven tells Aqua that he wants her to take his and put it in vessel he created-Sora-,but only if something should happen to him. When she put Ven's soul and heart in Sora she made it so he could live his own life but Ven would still be alive (in a way). So in other words this means Sora is an Unbirth.
Wow!!!! Your just making up things up now. You were doing good until you got talking about sora,ven,and roxas. Ven created a vessel name sora no when a scene on DI show two boys playin (riku and sora). Also if aqua did put vens soul and heart inside of sora wouldnt he have two hearts and two soul. Sora is an unbirth you got to be kidding me. When you said that an unbirth is a wondering soul corrupted light. Really think before thinking of a theory like this go way back to the drawing board not to be mean but you got to think this through.

Aqua decided to put Ven where he could be safe- the future Castle Oblivion. Now when Kairi's pure light saved Sora from the darkness Ven's heart and soul were free. As they were about to go into wherever they go Ven's heart and soul can feel his body. When they get back to their body they don't have their memory. This could either mean Ven's memories are still stuck in Sora(which would explain why Roxas seems to regain his memories and says "you make a good other" as he gets around Sora) or the darkness made him lose his memories(if it's possible).
When the soul leaves the body. The body gives way to death so......this paragraph is not possible.

Now here comes another big question why does Ven want to be erased? I think this is because each warrior of one keyblade generation controls a realm. I think Terra is Darkness, Aqua is light, and Ven is inbetween.
Uhhh....What about MX and DS also VAT master

Now as I said earlier the Unbirths are basically corrupted light and Terra is in control of darkness. Ven fights for the light but he's actually fighting the light and he figt the darkness and yet fighting with it. Why is this so bad? He's completely going against what he belives in. He's inbetween. I thin he feels as though he has to choose between the two and is afraid he'll make a mistake. This is why he asks Aqua to erase him better to be destroyed by the light instead of the dark and to be deatroyed or whatever it is by a person he considers family. This would also explain why Ven is most of the time seen getting beat around because he's lost the will to fight.

Ok your theory is not backed up ,your not supporting your own theory when you say some of these people are unbirths which their not. Think about your theory closely look at what doesnt make since because your way way off some of this stuff isnt possible. Definely when the facts are already said.

 

Pheonex

I'll scorch your muffin.
Joined
Nov 10, 2008
Messages
1,575
Location
Where are you?
Whoa 0_o. That's kind of a lot to read. Maybe next time you should organize it in to sections, it might make it easier on all of us.
 

DMrayZ

Digidork for life.
Joined
Apr 3, 2008
Messages
1,250
Awards
1
Location
At the end of time, listening to the drums...
((Due to popular demand, I have returned, and it's time VK, for your Theory to be dealt with, for I am, THE INDENTER!
Just to let you know this is kind of far-fetched and wild.


I think I've done it. I think I've answered some of the greatest questions of the Kingdom Hearts series. And yes they are connected.

First off the connection between Aqua and Ven. From the videos it seems that they are like Sora and Kairi. Like they have a crush or something. I could see why, but I think that maybe they're brothers and sisters.
Now before you go off saying " Kingdom Heats doesn't focus on family" I mean that they grew up together. Maybe both of them were orphans of their worlds and when they found out each other were orphans I think they became close. And if you think about it SKR are like this except not orphans ( or at least not Sora i guess) but grew up close to each other.


Another question is the Unbirths: What are they? I think they are the ultimate vessels. The way I see they may be one of a few things. One possibility is that they are wandering souls inhabiting lifeless things ( i.e. needles and pins) I'm not sure if they say if souls alone go to Kingdom Hearts as well. Maybe they start going there but sense a lifeless body or object nearby and take control of it.

Also, I bet many people are wondering how are they made. I think they may be made from corrupted light saving people from turning in to heartless for good. Like when Kairi saved Sora frokm the dark I think when she saved him being a Princess of Heart and having only light in her heart I think her heart made Roxas an Unbirth(I'll talk about this later) So this influences them to become beings of light but the darkness they are made in or around either corrupts them or gives them the ability to use darkness. This would also explain why Nomura says heartless or nobody didn't exist back then and why MX wants them.

Now here comes a really big one:Roxas Ven and Sora. Ok as we know Ven and Roxas look alike and are related somehow. And I do believe they are the same. I think that Roxas is Ven (meaning Ven came first) but what's different is that they weren't created at different times. As we know Roxas and Ven are keyblade wielders. (This has to do with the previous question) As we know, Roxas was created when Sora became a heartless, but Kairi, a being with pure light in her heart, saved him using that light. What I think this means is that the light in Kairi released someting inside Sora:Ven.

When Ven gets defeated by Mx he's frozen alive (if this happens in the game). I think before the battle Ven tells Aqua that he wants her to take his and put it in vessel he created-Sora-,but only if something should happen to him. When she put Ven's soul and heart in Sora she made it so he could live his own life but Ven would still be alive (in a way). So in other words this means Sora is an Unbirth.

Aqua decided to put Ven where he could be safe- the future Castle Oblivion. Now when Kairi's pure light saved Sora from the darkness Ven's heart and soul were free. As they were about to go into wherever they go Ven's heart and soul can feel his body. When they get back to their body they don't have their memory. This could either mean Ven's memories are still stuck in Sora(which would explain why Roxas seems to regain his memories and says "you make a good other" as he gets around Sora) or the darkness made him lose his memories(if it's possible).

Now here comes another big question why does Ven want to be erased?
I think this is because each warrior of one keyblade generation controls a realm. I think Terra is Darkness, Aqua is light, and Ven is in between. Now as I said earlier the Unbirths are basically corrupted light <I got this from another thread so I would like to give recognition to that person> and Terra is in control of darkness.

Ven fights for the light but he's actually fighting the light and he fights for the darkness and yet is fighting with it. Why is this so bad? He's completely going against what he believes in. He's inbetween. I think he feels as though he has to choose between the two and is afraid he'll make a mistake. This is why he asks Aqua to erase him better to be destroyed by the light instead of the dark and to be destroyed or whatever it is by a person he considers family. This would also explain why Ven is most of the time seen getting beat around because he's lost the will to fight.

Now that that has been properly indented and edited, I would like to say...
YouTube - Dr Cox - Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong
Thank you, and good day.
 

Muse

you look atrocious
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
4,052
Age
29
*sigh* They stated in KHII that Xehanort was the one who created the Heartless, basically. Until then, they only had Unbirths until the Unbirths all went away for some reason.

The Heartless weren't around until a few months or whatever after BBS when Xehanort the Apprentice starting experimenting with other worlds and such.
 

shadowred3

New member
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
188
no heartless in bbs but i still like the theory. lol at sora running around with three hearts with him. and namine anf=d roxas are defanetly siblings or whatever u want to call them
 
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
Messages
491
Location
The Plane of Suck
Just to let you know this is kind of far-fetched and wild.


I think I've done it. I think I've answered some of the greatest questions of the Kingdom Hearts series. And yes they are connected.

First off the connection between Aqua and Ven. From the videos it seems that they are like Sora and Kairi. Like they have a crush or something. I could see why, but I think that maybe they're brothers and sisters. Now before you go off saying " Kingdom Heats doesn't focus on family" I mean that they grew up together. Maybe both of them were orphans of their worlds and when they found out each other were orphans I think they became close. And if you think about it SKR are like this except not orphans ( or at least not Sora i guess) but grew up close to each other.

Or it could be the fact that they are keyblade apprentices to the same master and have been training together for a while and are just friends. There nothing else suggesting that they are anything more.

Another question is the Unbirths:what are they. I think they are the ultimate vessels. The way I see they may be one of a few things. One possible thing are wandering souls inhabiting lifeless things ( i.e. needles and pins) I'm not sure if they say if souls alone go to Kingdom Hearts as well. Maybe they start going there but sense a lifeless body or object nearby and take control of it.

WHAT? First you say they're the ultimate vessels, but then you say they're wandering souls inhabiting things like pins and needles. That entire statement is contradictory. Either they are wandering souls or the ultimate vessels.

Also, I bet many people are wondering how are they made. I think they may be made from corrupted light saving people from turning in to heartless for good. Like when Kairi saved Sora from the dark. I think when she saved him, being a Princess of Heart and having only light in her heart, I think her heart made Roxas an Unbirth (I'll talk about this later). So this influences them to become beings of light but the darkness they are made in or around either corrupts them or gives them the ability to use darkness.

Nope sorry that's wrong. The heartless didn't exist until Xehanort made them when experimenting with the darkness in peoples hearts. I'll talk Roxas further down.

This would also explain why Nomura says heartless or nobody didn't exist back then and why MX wants them.

No the reason he said that is because they didn't exist back then because Xehanort hasn't made them yet. Also where did it ever say MX wanted Heartless and Nobodies?

Now here comes a really big one:Roxas, Ven, and Sora. Ok as we know Ven and Roxas look alike and are related somehow. And I do belive they are the same. I think that Roxas is Ven (meaning Ven came first) but what's different is that they weren't created at different times. As we know Roxas and Ven are keyblade wieders. (This has to do with the previous question) As we know Roxas was created when Sora became a heartless, but Kairi being a being with pure light in her heart saved him using that light. What I think this means is that the light in Kairi released something inside Sora: Ven. When Ven gets defeated by MX he's frozen alive (if this happens in the game). I think before the battle Ven tells Aqua that he wants her to take his heart and put it in vessel he created, Sora, but only if something should happen to him. When she put Ven's soul and heart in Sora she made it so he could live his own life but Ven would still be alive (in a way). So in other words this means Sora is an Unbirth. Aqua decided to put Ven where he could be safe- the future Castle Oblivion. Now when Kairi's pure light saved Sora from the darkness Ven's heart and soul were free. As they were about to go into wherever they go Ven's heart and soul can feel his body. When they get back to their body they don't have their memory. This could either mean Ven's memories are still stuck in Sora(which would explain why Roxas seems to regain his memories and says "you make a good other" as he gets around Sora) or the darkness made him lose his memories(if it's possible).

You contradicted yourself again. Now you're back with Unbirths being vessels and saying Sora is an Unbirth, but above you said that Unbirths are wondering souls and that Roxas was the Unbirth. Well either way you're wrong. Sora already existed and was four years old at the time of BBS. Roxas was his Nobody and not an Unbirth. Also Roxas was born in Twilight Town not Castle Oblivion. Read the Another Report or look at the videos from KH2FM they'll confirm it.

Now here comes another big question why does Ven want to be erased? I think this is because each warrior of one keyblade generation controls a realm. I think Terra is Darkness, Aqua is light, and Ven is inbetween.

Whoa stop right there. Each keyblade warrior from a generation doesn't control a realm. First, there are too many keyblade warriors for the realms. There are 7, possibly 8, known keyblade wielders in BBS. They are King Mickey, Terra, Aqua, Ven, TAV's Master, Master Xehanort, The Dark Soldier, and possibly Yen Sid. There are three realms. The Realm of Light, the Realm of Darkness, and the Realm of Nothingness. I would include the Plain of Suck in this, but I think that might an in between world instead of a realm. As you can see there would be too many keyblade wielders for one to rule each realm. Further more MX and the DS are more incline to darkness then Terra is. Yes Terra starts to use the power of darkness, but according to what we've seen this seems to be a recent development. So really Terra is the one using both and Ven uses light.

Now as I said earlier the Unbirths are basically corrupted light

OK I just want to get this straight. You're saying that that Unbirths are the ultimate vessels, wandering souls, and corrupted light? Just one contradiction after another.

and Terra is in control of darkness. Ven fights for the light but he's actually fighting the light and he fights the darkness and yet fighting with it. Why is this so bad? He's completely going against what he belives in. He's inbetween. I think he feels as though he has to choose between the two and is afraid he'll make a mistake. This is why he asks Aqua to erase him. Better to be destroyed by the light instead of the dark and to be destroyed or whatever it is by a person he considers family. This would also explain why Ven is most of the time seen getting beat around because he's lost the will to fight.

Well first you didn't answer the WHY of 'why he wants to be erased' just the HOW of 'why he wants to be erased'. Second, as said before Terra is using both with Ven and Aqua using light. Also Ven isn't seen getting owned all the time. In fact it is only seen in the 'Birth by Sleep' video from KH2FM when he goes up against MX and in the trailer when his is fighting the DS. Any other time he is actually fairing well on his own.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top