Does it say this, though? This is the 'misconception' I was talking about. It seems that lots of people on this forum believe that they had full grown hearts, when I can't find in the game where it says this. It says burgeoning hearts, and then there are dots to join in the other games that could point to anything from burgeoning hearts to full ones.
Yes, but Ansem was also describing Terra, Aqua and Ven, who have very different situations and were fully realised people from birth (depending on whether you think post-split Ven is the same guy as before lol idek). So it's not 100% clear that Roxas, Namine and Xion have hearts. Especially considering that we don't yet know whether the methods for bringing all six back will be the same.
I mean, look at Axelea! He came back all on his own, despite being one of the 'tormented' people shown in Re:coded!
Here:
Sora: You know, right, because you all have hearts! Axel and Roxas and Naminé, and that other girl. I felt what Roxas felt and... they laughed together, got mad, and they grieved. You have to have a heart to cry.
Xigbar: It's about time you noticed.
glossary said:
Hearts Tied to Sora
Not long after Sora was born, his heart connected with that of a boy named Ventus. Ventus's heart had been torn apart, but Sora saved him by sharing a part of his own.
Several years later, three young Keyblade wielders—Terra, Aqua, and Ventus—found themselves embroiled in a battle with Master Xehanort. In their travels, Master Aqua and Terra both met Sora and his best friend, Riku. Sora promised Aqua to keep Riku on the right path, while Riku made a secret promise with Terra. Not long after, Terra became a vessel for Master Xehanort, and Aqua vanished into the realm of darkness. As for Ventus, he shattered his own heart to protect his friends and returned to Sora's heart, where he sleeps to this day.
Years later, after Sora got older, he unknowingly hid his friend Kairi's heart inside his own to protect it. When Sora became a Heartless, he also inadvertently gave form to Kairi's Nobody, Naminé, while creating his own Nobody, Roxas.
Another being was also created: a replica named Xion. Xion was formed from Sora's memories of Kairi, and she had the power to copy Roxas.
Ultimately, Xion and Naminé realized their place and guided the pieces back where they belonged; Naminé returned to Kairi's heart, and Xion and Roxas returned to Sora's.
Many hearts have touched Sora's, and those connections remain—but their stories end in sadness, a sadness in which they still sleep.
I don't see what more confirmation you need.
The entry says clearly
Hearts tied to Sora and not something else.
The last sentence clearly is meant for all of them, not just Terra, Aqua and Ven.
Some things are never outright said and still be confirmed otherwise.
Yet on this Nomura (totally out of character for him) choose to be pretty blunt in the Ultimania as well in addition to the above:
— It was declared from Ansem the Wise’s own mouth that everything can grow a heart.
Nomura: Yes it was, I thought I’d leave it clear in this title.
And you still make the mistake to compare Roxas and Naminé with Axel/Lea or any of the other normal Nobodies. With those two (and Xemnas) there are different senses of self in the mix.
Not to mention Nomura already confirmed that Axel's/Lea's case is different than the others.
The point is not who was shown in Re: Coded (that was an error anyways, Ansem the Wise should have been there instead of Axel) but who called Sora's name in Blank Points.
Those are the seven tormented ones relying on Sora, and Axel
didn't call Sora's name.
As for Ventus, of course he was the same guy before and after the split. A part of his heart got broken off and eventually got to be a heart of its own, Vanitas also has an own sense of self different from Ventus.
In fact, Birth by Sleep was the first Ultimania where Nomura openly spoke about "hearts being formed" when talking about Ven's status just after Sora saved him. Ven's heart was still there, but not fully formed because of the damage done by Xehanort.
That does make sense if you think that memories are the main basis for a sense of self. In those cases there is only one chain of memories--when the Other dies, the Nobody simply picks up the slack and adds memories to the chain until they die, and then when the Other returns they pick up where it left off.
I can interpret Axel and Lea this way, anyway. But I also actually don't truly believe that memories are all there is to a sense of self. It's been shown numerous times in the series that selves, hearts and memories are elements of a bigger picture but not the same thing. I believe that the choices Axel made when he existed as a Nobody would have been different to the choices Lea would have made had he been alive at the time, mostly due to the lack of a heart, partly due to the change in being reborn as a different type of creature of a different realm, partly from different values. Idk, I don't want to get too existential about it OR argue about it cause I am probs not going to change my mind lol
What I do want to talk about is, I'm not sure whether the series has enough grounding for me to believe straight away that Axel and Lea's hearts merged simply because they shared memories. The only example of hearts actually merging I can think of were Ven and Sora, and despite some small effects on each other they remained separate people in terms of sense of self. So, again, is this 'hearts merging' thing something forum people have decided and are now touting as confirmed truth, or has it been actually stated to have happened?
Yes, that's what I also think. It also seemed to be the core of the half-truth he was selling the Org members. It didn't seem that he was offering to return their old Other's hearts, but to give them a newly-created heart of their very own.
Yes, I also think this. Like... I believe that the consciousness known as Axel is basically dead. His objective memories now influence someone else's sense of self (the way Sora and the Riku Replica were by memories of Namine, but more organically, perhaps the way Roxas may have been by memories of Kairi) but he himself doesn't exist any more. ("Meet again in the next life" ahhh)
What else would be the main base? As Ansem the Wise pointed out: Experiencing the world, nature, the light and connect with others also add to it, it's all a mixture.
Xemnas also talked in the Grid about how tightly linked the memories and the heart are. One could say that memories are the most important "ingredient" for the heart, and Marluxia wanted Naminé to "completely erase" all of Sora's memories so he could "mold" him into something more of his own liking in CoM.
Xehanort's and Terra's hearts also merged, as did Eraqus' with Terra's, and yet they remained all independent from each other because they're different consciousnesses/senses of self from the start, just like Sora and Ventus were. Axel and Lea aren't really that different, and while memories are not all that defines a sense of self, they indeed form the base.
Xemnas also spoke of convincing the mind of test subjects in their experiments to renounce their own sense of self, meaning essentially brainwashing someone into believing that they are not anymore "them" at all.
Looking over Ultimania and Famitsu stuff again, I cannot find a flat out statement that the new and original heart merged (or rather fused) into one, but it seems to be the most easily explainable thing on how why Lea has Axel-memories.
That was already confirmed in a Famitsu interview in July 2009:
–The initial members of the Organization abandoned their hearts intentionally? Why, now, do they collect hearts?
Nomura: The reason is to have a ‘complete existence.’ KH1’s Ansem (Xehanort, stealing this name) had a purpose, and realizing that he had transcended being a human, turned into a Heartless. Xemnas remembers that purpose, but as a Nobody, ‘an empty shell,’ collects hearts to become complete. The other members of the Organization have their own expectations, but are there mainly for the purpose of collecting hearts to complete Kingdom Hearts, as only Xemnas stared ahead and made it a priority. It is natural that Nobodies, who do not have hearts, demand hearts, though it may seem that Sora’s defeating them is unnecessary, the Organization members don’t look for their own hearts, but collect many from unspecified persons, and use them instead, placing the hearts in a situation where they cannot go back to their origin.
They really weren't looking for their own old hearts, but in the light of that except the with the special Nobodies there were no differences in sense of self for the other Nobodies it doesn't really matter in the end.
Why would the consciousness of Axel be "dead" if it is basically the same as Lea's anyways? Like you said, only one chain of memories that was expanded under a different name for some time. In contrast to Naminé and Roxas who started a whole new chain because there wasn't anything to add to as their "originals" continued to exist on their own. There was no transfer, but with Lea there was since he was strong enough to "continue on" as a Nobody.
The way you word it sounds practically like Axel and Lea were two different entities.
