Can any one explain this scene in Days and why Xion some how gets Riku's Memories.



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ZeldaPokemonFan

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I always seem not to understand how she could get Riku's memories from Castle Oblivion and was it because of Riku being there too just as it was happening. I mean shouldn't she have gotten memories of Sora being CO then Riku?
 
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Sephiroth0812

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Xion's special power has to do with absorbing memories because she was mainly created out of memories.

Riku is also closely tied/bonded with Sora so she could access them through their connection as well.
She most likely even snatched some memories from Ven's injured heart because she managed to take on Ven's appearance to Xigbar for a short time.

But Smile or goldpanner are the real experts on this...so they may be able to explain it in more detail, lol.
 

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Yeah, I will leave it to the pros to diagnose this thread, but I will still put in my 2 centz.

Apprently, Sora has some of Riku's memories. (along with Roxas' and Xion's, and possibly Ventus', which he can't remember at this point) So, since Xion was built from Sora's memories, it is only natural that she contains Riku's memories as well. since some of them are inside of Sora for whatever reason.
 

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Apprently, Sora has some of Riku's memories. (along with Roxas' and Xion's, and possibly Ventus', which he can't remember at this point) So, since Xion was built from Sora's memories, it is only natural that she contains Riku's memories as well. since some of them are inside of Sora for whatever reason.
I really think it's the other way around. Xion absorbed Riku's Memories for whatever reason. Then, as seen in one of the parts in the novels, those Memories flowed from Xion back into Sora while Sora was still asleep.
You'll also note that when Data Namine showed Data Sora and Mickey the Memories sleeping inside Sora, Riku wasn't one of the owners. That implies that Riku's Memories made it into the journal through other means - and as Xion tampered with Sora's own Memories, it makes sense the Memories she absorbed from Riku made it to Sora and from there, mingled with his Journal - even if Namine didn't put them in directly

As for why Xion managed to absorb Riku's Memories, there are some possibilities.

1) Xion absorbs Memories from all whole beings in her vicinity. As she was only around Nobodies, the only one whose Memories she absorbed was Roxas - not only someone with ties to Sora, whose Replica she was, but also someone with Ven's wounded Heart, thus technically, a "whole" being by composition (mind - the vessel still became a Nobody though). When she came in contact with Riku, however, it was different since he was whole. This let her absorb his Memories (the novels stated Riku was stalking Xion for a while prior to Snarl of Memories, and he also met her before in-game in Beast's Castle. These two facts can explain why Xion managed to absorb his Memories, but not, say - Diz's)

2) It was shown that Memories aren't only inside one person. See - Namine making everyone who knew Sora forget about him so that his own Memories could be restored without interference. As Xion stole Sora's Memories, she'd be the one tied through them to Riku in Sora's stead, thus enabling her to absorb his Memories once she came in contact with him (this could link back to the Whole being issue, thus explaining why Riku's Memories were absorbed but not, say, Axel's).

3) My own pet theory on the matter is that Xion was also designed to absorb Riku's powers. Xion's goal was to copy not necessarily Sora's powers, but the Keyblade Wielder's. For that end, copying Riku's abilities would also be useful, especially since he also held the Keyblade twice in KH1. This would be complemented by the Memories she absorbed from Roxas that belonged to him and Sora, thus making her powers useful.
Two reasons why I think she's tied to Riku on an existential level (and I wrote a long ass theory about it a good while ago, but here're the main points):
1) Her black hair. Why is this tied to Riku? Because she ended up being the Oblivion. This ties in also with Namine being Kairi's Nobody and her color theme and design being similar to the Oathkeeper (the overall design really rings close to CO imo). So why is this related to Riku from the get go? Because the Oblivion is Sora's connection to Riku, and Xion had the black hair from the day she got her face.
2) The day she got her face was the very same day Riku ended up on Castle Oblivion. Fun tidbits are fun.
3) The Tug-O-War. Sora and Riku were snatching the Keyblade from one-another all throughout KH1. If Xion was to copy that ability using Memories that belonged to Riku - ones that Re:CoM implies were missing, mind, as his Heart was supposedly empty - it would help explain why she managed to absorb Roxas's powers, and even break the balance of powers between them by absorbing too much.
 

Ven1028

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im in awe. that was amazing, i couldnt have said it better myself. i probably couldnt have even said it.
 

ZeldaPokemonFan

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I really think it's the other way around. Xion absorbed Riku's Memories for whatever reason. Then, as seen in one of the parts in the novels, those Memories flowed from Xion back into Sora while Sora was still asleep.
You'll also note that when Data Namine showed Data Sora and Mickey the Memories sleeping inside Sora, Riku wasn't one of the owners. That implies that Riku's Memories made it into the journal through other means - and as Xion tampered with Sora's own Memories, it makes sense the Memories she absorbed from Riku made it to Sora and from there, mingled with his Journal - even if Namine didn't put them in directly

As for why Xion managed to absorb Riku's Memories, there are some possibilities.

1) Xion absorbs Memories from all whole beings in her vicinity. As she was only around Nobodies, the only one whose Memories she absorbed was Roxas - not only someone with ties to Sora, whose Replica she was, but also someone with Ven's wounded Heart, thus technically, a "whole" being by composition (mind - the vessel still became a Nobody though). When she came in contact with Riku, however, it was different since he was whole. This let her absorb his Memories (the novels stated Riku was stalking Xion for a while prior to Snarl of Memories, and he also met her before in-game in Beast's Castle. These two facts can explain why Xion managed to absorb his Memories, but not, say - Diz's)

2) It was shown that Memories aren't only inside one person. See - Namine making everyone who knew Sora forget about him so that his own Memories could be restored without interference. As Xion stole Sora's Memories, she'd be the one tied through them to Riku in Sora's stead, thus enabling her to absorb his Memories once she came in contact with him (this could link back to the Whole being issue, thus explaining why Riku's Memories were absorbed but not, say, Axel's).

3) My own pet theory on the matter is that Xion was also designed to absorb Riku's powers. Xion's goal was to copy not necessarily Sora's powers, but the Keyblade Wielder's. For that end, copying Riku's abilities would also be useful, especially since he also held the Keyblade twice in KH1. This would be complemented by the Memories she absorbed from Roxas that belonged to him and Sora, thus making her powers useful.
Two reasons why I think she's tied to Riku on an existential level (and I wrote a long ass theory about it a good while ago, but here're the main points):
1) Her black hair. Why is this tied to Riku? Because she ended up being the Oblivion. This ties in also with Namine being Kairi's Nobody and her color theme and design being similar to the Oathkeeper (the overall design really rings close to CO imo). So why is this related to Riku from the get go? Because the Oblivion is Sora's connection to Riku, and Xion had the black hair from the day she got her face.
2) The day she got her face was the very same day Riku ended up on Castle Oblivion. Fun tidbits are fun.
3) The Tug-O-War. Sora and Riku were snatching the Keyblade from one-another all throughout KH1. If Xion was to copy that ability using Memories that belonged to Riku - ones that Re:CoM implies were missing, mind, as his Heart was supposedly empty - it would help explain why she managed to absorb Roxas's powers, and even break the balance of powers between them by absorbing too much.
Ah What?

Smile I appreciate your explain Xion's reason for having these memories from Riku but has the plot of the series become this convoluting and confusing? I'm having a hard time following what you explained and are saying most of these are theories and not facts about the plot regarding the scene with Xion or her existence. Oh my gosh I can't believe Noruma's screwed up the story of the series this badly to the point where even I'm not understanding it anymore. Otherwise Smile thanks for trying to help me understand the plot a little bit better because honestly the KH series is starting to become way to confusing for a kids game to even understand.
 

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Exactly.

Smile I appreciate your explain Xion's reason for having these memories from Riku but has the plot of the series become this convoluting and confusing?
About four titles ago.

I'm having a hard time following what you explained and are saying most of these are theories and not facts about the plot regarding the scene with Xion or her existence.
It was never confirmed either way, how Xion's related to Riku, so theories are all we have to go on. I think it's certain to say she IS related to him, however. There's just too much in there.

Oh my gosh I can't believe Noruma's screwed up the story of the series this badly to the point where even I'm not understanding it anymore.
A lot of things were never explained, so don't beat yourself up about not understanding it - there was never anything in-game for you to understand. Unless goldpanner or someone wants to share any tidbits from the novels (though I looked up when Xion woke up, and there wasn't much there beyond what was shown in-game, unless I missed it), theories are all we have to go on. He might explain it, he might not. I'm hoping he will and think he will, seeing how Riku's getting some attention as more than debatable filler and how Xion's still a point of plot-complications that needs to be dealt with.
tl;dr it's not a plot hole yet, so much as an unresolved issue.

Otherwise Smile thanks for trying to help me understand the plot a little bit better because honestly the KH series is starting to become way to confusing for a kids game to even understand.
Yeah the rating being suitable for kids doesn't mean it's something a 5 year old can understand. It's a plot that actually requires an attention for details :V
 

Key of Valor

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I have my own theory about how Xion is connected to Riku's memories. It was stated that Xion was able to absorb power and memories through Roxas and his connections. Since she is Roxas' Replica, it makes sense that her connections and access to memories should be based mainly on Roxas' connections and access to memories. Therefore, I believe Riku's memories are more directly connected to Roxas than Xion. Roxas' connection to Riku's memories may exist through a connection between Ven's heart and Riku's heart. At the end of KH:BBS, Yensid said that Ven's heart had drifted into a state between light and darkness, causing Ven's heart to submit to what could possibly be an eternal slumber. In KH:CoM'R/R, DiZ said that Riku's heart had fallen into a similar a state. There are many similarities between the condition of Ven's heart and the condition of Riku's.

Both their hearts existed between light and darkness. Both had fallen into a state of sleep that could possibly be eternal. Both fell into such a state after an evil entity had lost control over their hearts (Vanitus for Ven and Ansem SoD for Riku).

Also, characters told Riku that he should have lost the ability to hold on to his memories. Characters also told Riku that his heart should be nearly empty. The combination of these qualities would result in Riku being unable to properly feel emotions. Roxas (who may have Ven's heart) also lacked memories, was a "mostly empty" being, and struggled with the expression of emotions.

This suggests to me that Ven's heart and Riku's heart were in the same condition or nearly in the same condition at some point. Maybe during the time in which both Ven's heart and Riku's heart were in this slumber, a connection between the two hearts may have been forged, allowing memories to subconsciously pass between the two.

On another note, Riku's memory in Snarl of Memories interestingly enough is about Zexion describing some of the traits of those with mostly empty hearts (hearts near slumber), saying that those who have their hearts in that condition have dark memories most prominently existing in their hearts. When Roxas heard this, he reacted by clutching his head, as if Zexion's statement about dark memories was also relevant to Roxas as well as Riku. This again suggests that Ven's heart and Riku's heart are connected in the sense that they both existed in a similar state at one point.

Also, speaking about dark memories in Ven's heart, if Xion's primary appearance was supposed to be based off the strongest memory that Roxas had access to, then perhaps while most of Xion's appearance was based of Kairi (Sora's strongest memory), perhaps other aspects were based off Vanitas (Ven's strongest dark memory). This might explain her black hair and such.
 

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I'll debunk this from an early stage.
Xion was supposed to be a Sora Replica. Otherwise Xemnas meeting Sora in the first Final Mix would've been pretty damn pointless. It was Sora's Memories she was absorbing, less Roxas's own.

Then there's the fact that I fail to see how Ven's wounded, broken Heart was in any way in a similar situation to Riku's Heart at the end of KH1. Also, Riku's Heart didn't find shelter within anyone else - Ven's did.

Ven never lost his Memories, even if you say Riku did.

Roxas/Xion clutching their heads in pain seems to be more of Snarl of Memory doing a number on them, what with them both being Sora oriented and then Riku's Memories barged in.
 

Key of Valor

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Smile said:
I'll debunk this from an early stage.
Xion was supposed to be a Sora Replica. Otherwise Xemnas meeting Sora in the first Final Mix would've been pretty damn pointless. It was Sora's Memories she was absorbing, less Roxas's own.
In Kh'Days, it's specifically stated by someone that Xion is a Replica of Sora's Nobody. The words "Sora's Replica" and "Replica of Sora" do not exist in the game.

As for Xemnas' encounter with Sora, I'm pretty sure that was done in order to test Sora's power. Besides, I'm Xemnas was curious about Sora similarities with Roxas and thus satisfied his curiosity by meeting with Sora.

Smile said:
Then there's the fact that I fail to see how Ven's wounded, broken Heart was in any way in a similar situation to Riku's Heart at the end of KH1. Also, Riku's Heart didn't find shelter within anyone else - Ven's did.
Riku's heart wasn't fractured though, it just drove much of its light and darkness too suddenly, which took a toll on his heart. The condition of Ven's heart after his fight with Vanitas has not yet been fully explored, but it's possible that Ven similarly drove out the darkness in his heart when he defeated Vanitas while at the same time perhaps almost wiping Ven's heart and the light within. I'm not saying that Ven's heart and Riku's heart are similar because they are fractured, but rather because their hearts became nearly empty at one point.

Smile said:
Ven never lost his Memories, even if you say Riku did.
Ven's memory loss is not confirmed, but if Roxas has Ven's heart, then perhaps Roxas' lack of memories is an indication that Ven's heart lacks memories as well (though this is not necessarily definite proof).

Smile said:
Roxas/Xion clutching their heads in pain seems to be more of Snarl of Memory doing a number on them, what with them both being Sora oriented and then Riku's Memories barged in.
That is indeed a possible reason for their head clutching, but I personally it is more relevant to Zexion's comment about dark memories, since the head clutching didn't begin when Riku's memory started to play, but instead began as soon as Zexion began talking about dark memories.
 

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In Kh'Days, it's specifically stated by someone that Xion is a Replica of Sora's Nobody. The words "Sora's Replica" and "Replica of Sora" do not exist in the game.
But it's Sora's Memories she was absorbing, less so Roxas's, thus making her a Replica of Sora. Note at the end of the game, her looking like Sora and stating that this is what she was to become, not Roxas.

As for Xemnas' encounter with Sora, I'm pretty sure that was done in order to test Sora's power. Besides, I'm Xemnas was curious about Sora similarities with Roxas and thus satisfied his curiosity by meeting with Sora.
Any connection between a Replica and the origin has to start from somewhere. Repliku's started when Vexen fought Riku and took the data - whatever that's made up from - and implanted it in Repliku.
For Xion to be anyone's Replica, she'd have to have something of theirs. Roxas would have nothing to give - beyond things that belonged to Sora. This ties in with the Final Mix battle and Xemnas passing through Sora in a manner similar to how Marluxia passed through Sora in Re:CoM.
That was the basis, and from there on, Sora's Memories leaked into Xion through Roxas. She was copying Roxas for whose Nobody he was, not for himself.

I'm not saying that Ven's heart and Riku's heart are similar because they are fractured, but rather because their hearts became nearly empty at one point.
I have a hard time taking this since the 'emptyiness' in Riku's case is really metaphorical. Both Light and Darkness remained in his Heart, he never really pushed them out, just denied them. That's why it was possible for him to recover against Zexion the way he did - both Light and Darkness were still inside him, Namine just helped him accept that fact. It's not like he regained anything.
If he really was empty, tampering with his Darkness like XH did would've been meaningless.
As for Ven, as you said, it was never implied how bad his Heart-fracture was, but I doubt it was empty in that manner. More literally shattered.

Ven's memory loss is not confirmed, but if Roxas has Ven's heart, then perhaps Roxas' lack of memories is an indication that Ven's heart lacks memories as well (though this is not necessarily definite proof).
If Ven's Heart lacked Memories, Xion would never have been able to take his form, since her appearance is based on what someone remembers, and her having that same memory inside her.
Xigbar seeing her as Ven = Xion had Ven's Memories inside her.

That is indeed a possible reason for their head clutching, but I personally it is more relevant to Zexion's comment about dark memories, since the head clutching didn't begin when Riku's memory started to play, but instead began as soon as Zexion began talking about dark memories.
It's a very narrow way to look at that scene, especially seeing the overall relations.
Then there's the part where they morph into Sora with saying that 'you destroyed your home' or something to that effect. If you wanna go that metaphorical on that scene, you'll have to explain that too, but I think that's one of the best indications showing the problem was an identity issue. Roxas and Xion are Sora; they shouldn't see that Memory. They do, however, so it hurts.
Also, note the static. It's a clear indication something's wrong in this Memory-playing out. And it's the biggest static yet before Roxas starts clutching his head.
 

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2) It was shown that Memories aren't only inside one person. See - Namine making everyone who knew Sora forget about him so that his own Memories could be restored without interference. As Xion stole Sora's Memories, she'd be the one tied through them to Riku in Sora's stead, thus enabling her to absorb his Memories once she came in contact with him (this could link back to the Whole being issue, thus explaining why Riku's Memories were absorbed but not, say, Axel's).
This one makes most sense due to the fact that it took...6-7? days to bring Sora back. Which means once Xion was destroyed and Roxas left the organization, Sora was finally able to be brought as a sorta whole. It's just as he was almost completed that Roxas had to be brought back and used since he was Sora's body as well as Sora's ability to wield a keyblade (from what I understand).

What I'm saying is that the whole reason Xion HAD to be destroyed was so that Sora could be brought back. She was created in the first place, I think, so DiZ couldn't complete Sora. Because she had memories of Kairi, he couldn't be complete since Kairi was important to him. And the memories she supposedly has of Riku, well those are mainly what makes Sora also become whole again. Which leads back to Roxas being needed and blahblahbblah.

I hope that made sense.....o-o
 

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well as Sora's ability to wield a keyblade (from what I understand).
Sora could wield a Keyblade just fine. In fact, on days 25-26, Sora, Xion and Roxas all Wielded Keyblades at the same time.
Roxas did have part of Sora's powers as his Nobody and thus along with Ven's Keyblade, Roxas could Duel Wield, but he didn't have all of it until possibly the end of that year if at all.

Because she had memories of Kairi, he couldn't be complete since Kairi was important to him.
She had lots of Sora's Memories other than just Kairi. Those were just the ones she had at the time she got her face - Sora forgot Kairi completely at the time Xion got her face, but it's not like he kept sleeping only because he was missing his Memories of Kairi - he was missing everything else, too.

And the memories she supposedly has of Riku, well those are mainly what makes Sora also become whole again.
What? o.o;;; That's just wrong.
 

Key of Valor

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Smile said:
But it's Sora's Memories she was absorbing, less so Roxas's, thus making her a Replica of Sora. Note at the end of the game, her looking like Sora and stating that this is what she was to become, not Roxas.
As Namine explained, Xion was able to absorb Sora's memories because of her connection with Roxas. In fact, I think Namine said that Sora's memories were traveling into Roxas, and the from Roxas those memories were traveling into Xion. Therefore, Xion may have been absorbing Sora's memories, but she was taking them from/through Roxas, indicating a more direct connection with Roxas than with Sora. Xion said her appearance as Sora was an indication that her purpose was nearing completion, but she wouldn't be satisfied until after she had absorbed Roxas completely.

Smile said:
Any connection between a Replica and the origin has to start from somewhere. Repliku's started when Vexen fought Riku and took the data - whatever that's made up from - and implanted it in Repliku.
For Xion to be anyone's Replica, she'd have to have something of theirs. Roxas would have nothing to give - beyond things that belonged to Sora. This ties in with the Final Mix battle and Xemnas passing through Sora in a manner similar to how Marluxia passed through Sora in Re:CoM.
That was the basis, and from there on, Sora's Memories leaked into Xion through Roxas. She was copying Roxas for whose Nobody he was, not for himself.
It wasn't confirmed though that Xemnas' sampling of Sora in KH:fm is connected to Xion's creation. It's true that Xemnas passed through Sora, but Vexen didn't need to do that to Riku to collect his data. I personally think that Xemnas obtained the data for Xion from Roxas when Xemnas spoke to him in the Dark Margin. Their conversation takes place the day before Xion appeared, and it ended with Xemnas placing his hand on Roxas' shoulder, which the scene suggests to be a significant action. Perhaps Xemnas collected Roxas' data by placing his hand on Roxas' shoulder.

Not to mention, if Xemnas copied the data from Sora, then I would expect Xion to be more like the Riku Replica, at least in the sense that she would start out fully functioning and with all of Sora's memories. However, Xion initially appears to lack memories, be unable to speak, and act like a zombie... just like how Roxas was when he first entered the Organization. Xion's development and characteristics mirror Roxas in so many ways. I would even dare to say that before Sora's memories were becoming unchained in Castle Oblivion, perhaps Xion was indeed absorbing Roxas' memories. I say this because Xion's first word is "Roxas", which was also Roxas' first word when he met Xemnas in Twilight Town... The game even shows that scene after Xion says "Roxas" for the first time. Perhaps this indicates that Xion was starting to absorb Roxas' memories, beginning initially with Roxas' very first memory.

Smile said:
I have a hard time taking this since the 'emptyiness' in Riku's case is really metaphorical. Both Light and Darkness remained in his Heart, he never really pushed them out, just denied them. That's why it was possible for him to recover against Zexion the way he did - both Light and Darkness were still inside him, Namine just helped him accept that fact. It's not like he regained anything.
If he really was empty, tampering with his Darkness like XH did would've been meaningless.
As for Ven, as you said, it was never implied how bad his Heart-fracture was, but I doubt it was empty in that manner. More literally shattered.
Personally, I believe Riku's heart was mostly empty when he resided in the empty void, and then once he left the empty void, light and darkness gradually began to grow in his heart and/or seep into his heart. That's just my opinion though.

Smile said:
If Ven's Heart lacked Memories, Xion would never have been able to take his form, since her appearance is based on what someone remembers, and her having that same memory inside her.
Xigbar seeing her as Ven = Xion had Ven's Memories inside her.
I meant that Ven's heart doesn't consciously have access to its memories, even if those memories do exist somewhere deep in his heart.

Smile said:
It's a very narrow way to look at that scene, especially seeing the overall relations.
Then there's the part where they morph into Sora with saying that 'you destroyed your home' or something to that effect. If you wanna go that metaphorical on that scene, you'll have to explain that too, but I think that's one of the best indications showing the problem was an identity issue. Roxas and Xion are Sora; they shouldn't see that Memory. They do, however, so it hurts.
I don't think everything in that scene had to be metaphorical. However, if I had to find relevance with Zexion's last comment, then I would connect it to how Ven was the pawn in Master Xehanort's plan that led to Terra striking down Eraqus and then Master Xehanort destroying the Land of Departure. Ven's heart may blame itself for letting all that unfold.
 

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Therefore, Xion may have been absorbing Sora's memories, but she was taking them from/through Roxas, indicating a more direct connection with Roxas than with Sora. Xion said her appearance as Sora was an indication that her purpose was nearing completion, but she wouldn't be satisfied until after she had absorbed Roxas completely.
Setting aside how she said that to egg Roxas into fighting her, she was a Sora Replica. If Sora would be incomplete without Roxas, so would she be.

It wasn't confirmed though that Xemnas' sampling of Sora in KH:fm is connected to Xion's creation. It's true that Xemnas passed through Sora, but Vexen didn't need to do that to Riku to collect his data.
1) The novels basically do. Also, the fact that Xion was introduced closely to when Xemnas and Sora fought further supports that.
2) Though it's semantics, we don't know if there's any difference between data and Memories. I'm leaning heavily towards there being one. see how Xion and Roxas did see flashes of Sora's own Memories but Repliku needed Namine to create copies of Riku's Memories inside him. It's different.
Note I compared the Xemnas thingie to Marluxia, not Vexen's fight with Riku.

I personally think that Xemnas obtained the data for Xion from Roxas when Xemnas spoke to him in the Dark Margin
The Roxas-Xemnas conversation in the Dark Margin was confirmed by Nomura to have been a dream. Besides, when would they have met? Roxas was a zombie from the get-go.

I meant that Ven's heart doesn't consciously have access to its memories, even if those memories do exist somewhere deep in his heart.
That still doesn't make it empty though. As opposed to Riku who, albeit of unknown measures, did have a confirmed Memory loss.
The haze was clearing, after all.

I don't think everything in that scene had to be metaphorical.
It's hard to take your explanations seriously if you nitpick what is and what isn't metaphorical though :\

However, if I had to find relevance with Zexion's last comment, then I would connect it to how Ven was the pawn in Master Xehanort's plan that led to Terra striking down Eraqus and then Master Xehanort destroying the Land of Departure. Ven's heart may blame itself for letting all that unfold.
@_@; that's going far too overboard for me. I'll stay with the simple explanation where it's a Riku Memory wrecking havok on poor Roxas and Xion.
It adds up far too nicely with Roxas effectively blacking out, and Xion passing out.
 

Key of Valor

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Smile said:
Setting aside how she said that to egg Roxas into fighting her, she was a Sora Replica. If Sora would be incomplete without Roxas, so would she be.
Or maybe she was a Replica of Roxas, and could never be completely like her "original" until she absorbed him.

Smile said:
1) The novels basically do. Also, the fact that Xion was introduced closely to when Xemnas and Sora fought further supports that.
But she's introduced closer to when Xemnas and Roxas had their chat at the Dark Margin.

Smile said:
2) Though it's semantics, we don't know if there's any difference between data and Memories. I'm leaning heavily towards there being one. see how Xion and Roxas did see flashes of Sora's own Memories but Repliku needed Namine to create copies of Riku's Memories inside him. It's different.
Note I compared the Xemnas thingie to Marluxia, not Vexen's fight with Riku.
I also think that scanning memories and scanning data can be interchangeable concepts. However, my argument wasn't that it wasn't possible for Xemnas to be scanning Sora's data. I was just saying that scanning data/memories for the purpose of creating a Replica doesn't necessarily need to exist in that form. Vexen's sampling of Riku's data was practically unnoticeable, so perhaps even the simplest of encounters/actions can scan such data.

Smile said:
The Roxas-Xemnas conversation in the Dark Margin was confirmed by Nomura to have been a dream. Besides, when would they have met? Roxas was a zombie from the get-go.
Roxas was dreaming about a memory. Besides, if it had simply been a dream, then how could Xemnas tell Roxas about his encounter with Sora... or why would the dream be given a specific date. I know Nomura said the dream was part metaphorical to represent Roxas' own feelings, but Nomura also implied that their conversation exists on the timeline, perhaps making it more than just a dream. As for Roxas' ability to carry on a conversation, that indeed is a mystery. Perhaps it had something to do with the setting, which may be why the meeting took place there in the first place.

Smile said:
That still doesn't make it empty though. As opposed to Riku who, albeit of unknown measures, did have a confirmed Memory loss.
The haze was clearing, after all.
I'm not saying that Ven's heart is empty though just because it doesn't consciously remember anything, but I do believe his lack of memories is a possible indicator of him having an empty. I mean, in KH:CoM and KH:CoM'R/R, emptiness of the heart was slightly explored. Empty hearts reside between light and darkness, exist in a type of "eternal slumber", have dark memories be the most prominent, supposed to consciously lack other memories, and (because of the lack of memories) would struggle with the ability to adequately feel emotions and be very fragile hearts that are capable of collapsing. One could argue that Ven has a degree of some or all of these qualities, especially if Roxas' qualities are also taken into account. Not to mention, Roxas hinted in KH2:fm that he might possess a heart that is unable to properly feel emotions... so Roxas' theory about his own heart accidentally stumbled onto a description of an empty heart. Plus the virtual Roxas in Re:Coded goes on and on how one can lose memories and only recall the hurt of those memories, which may be related to Ven/Roxas only being able to remember painful aspects of the fragments of memories they retain (relating back to the whole "dark memory" aspect and "memory loss" of empty hearts).
 
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Weeaboo

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Sora could wield a Keyblade just fine. In fact, on days 25-26, Sora, Xion and Roxas all Wielded Keyblades at the same time.
Roxas did have part of Sora's powers as his Nobody and thus along with Ven's Keyblade, Roxas could Duel Wield, but he didn't have all of it until possibly the end of that year if at all.
Which might explain why Sora was easily used in Castle Oblivion. Also, it starts at day 21-22 and ends at day 49.



She had lots of Sora's Memories other than just Kairi. Those were just the ones she had at the time she got her face - Sora forgot Kairi completely at the time Xion got her face, but it's not like he kept sleeping only because he was missing his Memories of Kairi - he was missing everything else, too.
Yes, but Kairi was one of the most important ones, if I remember.

What? o.o;;; That's just wrong.
I meant this as Riku is his best friend and not having memories of him....would be bad. And the memories he possesses from Riku, are most likely hidden anyway.
 

Smile

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Which might explain why Sora was easily used in Castle Oblivion. Also, it starts at day 21-22 and ends at day 49.
I said Days 25-26 because Xion became able to use the Keyblade on Day 25, and Roxas passed out on Day 26. So they all managed to use the Keyblade at the same time on Day 25, and went down to two again when Roxas passed out on Day 26. By the time Roxas woke up, Sora was in the pod.

Yes, but Kairi was one of the most important ones, if I remember.
I'd sooner blame the whole mess on WHEN she got her face, being when Sora forgot Kairi completely (she got her face when Vexen died, and that's when Sora forgot Kairi). From that point onwards I'd sooner blame Roxas and Axel seeing the Xion they remembered rather than see Kairi or Namine.

I meant this as Riku is his best friend and not having memories of him....would be bad. And the memories he possesses from Riku, are most likely hidden anyway.
That's not the Memories of Riku we were talking about. Xion had Memories that belonged to Riku, not were Sora's Memories of Riku, like the Memories of Kairi.
 

Shire Folk

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@_@

I drop off the forums for a couple of months because there really don't appear to be many developments or new news about BBS: Volume II or Dream Drop Distance and I come back and we're arguing the semantics and metaphors about Xion's existence again.

I'm going to go with Smile on this one. Even though a good chunk of this is thought-provoking but still meaningless theorizing until Sora somehow 'saves' Xion, Smile's explanations fit the bill best in this case.
 

megatron532

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I agree with Smile on most, but not all points. Was it ever stated that Oblivion and Oathkeeper represent Namine and Xion? I thought Nomura himself said they represent Kairi and Riku? If this is up for debate, then I'm throwing in that it could represent Ventus and Vanitas inside Roxas. And, yes, Ventus lost his memories at one point, before the events of BbS. Eraqus came right out and said it in a flashback scene. Also, Ventus clutched his head when Vanitas brought those memories back to the surface. So it probably has something to do with darkness(I'm going with that Dark Memories theory). Ventus and Riku allegedly lost their memories just like everyone else connected to Sora. Riku actually says he lost those memories in the KH II prologue. He and DiZ were in the mansion near the end of the prologue(I forget which day) when DiZ asked Riku if he had remembered anything. And Riku replied that, yes, he was starting to remember. Honestly, Xion's existence was probably just a red herring to keep us away from figuring out more important matters. Actually, all of Days was a distraction.
 
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