Brotherly Affection

[Twilight Lumiair]

In the newest KH3 trailer, we saw some very interesting scenes regarding Sora & Roxas, and Ventus & Vanitas. One openly, and one quietly, but both display brotherly affections. For this particular thread, we'll be focusing on Sora and Vani before we circle back to others.

Let's start by looking at Sora. Very early on in the trailer, we see Sora, along with Hiro, GoGo, and Beymax sitting atop the main bridge connecting to San Fransokyo. Hiro discusses how Big Hero 6 came to be, and how feels that his older brother, Tadashi, lives on in him and his friends. For those of you that don't know, Hiro's older brother Tadashi, was incredibly close to the members of Big Hero 6, and in the film his death served as the main motivator for the teams formation. Upon hearing the story for the first time, Sora agrees and states that when they're not strong enough, then his (Tadashi's) strength can make up the difference. In other words, Sora openly acknowledges that even through death, those close to you can still lend you there strength, even if only in memory. He say's this in a quiet, almost somber way. Like he himself is familiar with that concept and was silently mourning someone. Whats more fascinating was as he said this, his face blinked into Roxas and briefly saw visions of Hayner, Pence, & Ollette. That's not the kind of symbolism that goes unused, and the fact that this was shown as Sora was saying that statement is rather telling. When I first saw this scene, I could tell right away that Sora was comparing Hiro's brother to Roxas. The very way it was framed seemed to communicate that message. We may not hear him say it, but for him(Roxas) to be the person Sora thinks of when discussing a friend's deceased sibling, to me, means he likely sees Roxas as a brother of some kind (at least the closest thing he's got). It also says something that both Roxas and Tadashi perished for the sake of someone else under false understanding of their circumstances, and both served as a key motivator and reminder of past regrets for Sora and Hiro respectively. I wouldn't be surprised if that's how it clicked for Sora.

*Edit: It's also worth mentioning that in the movie when Hiro learns the truth about the circumstances surrounding his brother's death, he becomes consumed by anger and revenge, at least for a short while, leading him to do questionable things. It wasn't until his friends came to comfort him that he was able to bounce back. Similarly, when Sora found out the truth regarding Roxas, and how he was able to feel real emotions, it serves as one of the key factors that pushes Sora into fighting Xemnas and allowing the organization to strong arm him into the dark abyss until he was rescued by his many friends.*

Personally, I find the fact that Sora sees Roxas as family in that way, despite only speaking with him once(knowingly at least), to be really sweet. Such a cinnamon role.



-
Moving on to Vanitas, it's rather self exclamatory. He openly acknowledges Ventus as his brother, and though it's unknown if this is his first time doing so, it's certainly our first time hearing it. And all in all, it makes sense. Vanitas, by nature, could always feel what Ventus felt ever since his creation and was seemingly jealous of his friendships with Terra and Aqua (implied by his constant teasing and name calling, which is something he never did quite as frequently if at all with other characters). Vanitas always saw both himself and Ventus as one in the same to some extent, as he calls themselves both "halves," and seeks to be "whole." Regardless if this is truly what's going on, it certainly appears that Vanitas viewed them both that way. It's not unreasonable that after believing you're bound to someone who's so different from you and in such a significant way (both physically and emotionally in this case), coupled with the fact that you never had any friends or familial bonds with people your whole life (he never liked Xehanort at any point in his life), you'd start to seek that out eventually, if not for the sake of jealousy, then for the sake of having someone to belong with. Anyway, if we assume Vani has felt this way for a decent amount of time, then the aforementioned name calling/teasing can be compared to that of a condescending older brother who hides his true feelings. Not that I'm saying Vanitas is a nice person by any means, but it certainly adds some layers to his character overall. It's also pretty telling that he's just choosing to sit with his brother and chat in the middle of a game like this.


-
As for Roxas and Ventus themselves, I'm not really sure, but I'd imagine they probably feel the same way, or at least I think they will by the end. Nomura said in a relatively recent interview that one of the main things we'll see in Kingdom Hearts 3 is how each of the characters feel about each other. I'm, of course, paraphrasing, but the message is the same. I imagine at some point down the line, the relationships between these four will blossom into a true sibling relationship, in which all of them openly acknowledge it to one another.

To sum up, it really seems like we'll be exploring many potential familial themes in KH3, and I'm a huge fan of that. Family is important, and something that should be explored more in a "friendship" heavy series like this. Please let me know your thoughts on the topic, as well as your different interpretations of these scenes. Do you think they'll end up being siblings together? It's ok if you don't agree, I love hearing everyone's opinion! And thank you for reading to the end =).

 

[Seadrin]

Very well said. You put into concrete thought and words what those scenes made me feel.

Excited for the developments!

 

[Nayru's Love]

I am attracted to the notion of there being deeper subtext to his bullying of Ven, subtext that's particularly subject to change; it's as if he treats Ven as if he's inferior as a means to mask his own feelings of inferiority. I've always believed that Vanitas desired to become a complete being, yet was led to believe that he could not coexist with Ven. Perhaps his demeanor reflects his desire to consume Ven not out of delight, but out of fear. Changing his understanding of his own existence would also change his relationship with Ven, especially if he considered the possibility of coexistence.

 

[Twilight Lumiair]

Very well said. You put into concrete thought and words what those scenes made me feel.

Excited for the developments!

Me too! I'm glad it was a satisfying read, it was pretty late when I posted, but I put a lot of thought into it.

I am attracted to the notion of there being deeper subtext to his bullying of Ven, subtext that's particularly subject to change; it's as if he treats Ven as if he's inferior as a means to mask his own feelings of inferiority. I've always believed that Vanitas desired to become a complete being, yet was led to believe that he could not coexist with Ven. Perhaps his demeanor reflects his desire to consume Ven not out of delight, but out of fear. Changing his understanding of his own existence would also change his relationship with Ven, especially if he considered the possibility of coexistence.

This was my exact thought process. Vanitas is a character that was, unfortunately, never really explored as much as he could have been, and personally, I think this is a much healthier direction for the character to go into after all that "I must unite with Ventus to make myself whole since I'm not a real person" nonsense. That stupidity that came from Xehanort regarding Vanitas was always toxic in my opinion, so it's nice to see Vani developing his own mindset regarding his existence and relationship with others. I hope it's a sign of things to come, there's a lot of potential for character growth this way.

 

[Luminary]

I think it is really interesting and clever how Sora and Roxas’ relationship seems like it will be a fool to that of Ventus and Vanitas. All Sora wants is to allow Roxas to be his own person while Vanitas wants the opposite, to be whole with his other half. I think that will set up an effective conflict between Sora and Vanitas as they try to accomplish their goals. I really hope this idea of brotherhood is explored further as I think it is the best way to make Sora and Roxas’ relationship from the one he has with Riku and other male characters.

Also, I want Vanitas to witness Sora and Roxas having a healthy relationship and see how that makes him feel about his relationship with Ventus.

 

[Megavoltage]

Also, I want Vanitas to witness Sora and Roxas having a healthy relationship and see how that makes him feel about his relationship with Ventus.

I want a scenario with these four traveling together and Vanitas making smarmy comments when the other boys try to have fun and enjoy themselves. We've got sitcom potential with these four.

 

[kirabook]

I've wanted this development my whole life. Seriously, I've always loved the idea of Sora and Roxas (and Ven) becoming like brothers. I never thought it would happen because KH doesn't really do family bonds between the original cast, at most it'd be super friendship or something.

But no, Sora and Vanitas blow it out of the water and imply their other half is not just their other half, but their brother. I was squealing. I think Roxas and Sora's feels for one another are... pretty mutual? Last we saw of Roxas, he was pretty subdued and accepted his fate. When Sora didn't accept that, Roxas had the sweetest smile on and held Sora's hands. Urg. I don't think Roxas is happy with his situation, but I don't think Roxas blames Sora for it either. Not anymore...

Ven feels nothing for Vanitas and pretty much wants nothing to do with him for obvious reasons. Unlike Vanitas, Ven doesn't appear to feel the need to feel whole because of his connection with Sora.

Which brings me to Sora and Ven. I think Ven has a lot of affection for Sora. The smol boy saved his life twice and gave him a safe place to rest. Sora taking in Ven's heart at the end of BbS was so sweet. Ven sounded so pleased to 'meet' Sora and grateful to him. Like, "Ah, finally. I know who you are, but I'm also so tired." What really got me quaking is when Ven finally sparkled to life in DDD and came out to protect Sora anyway he could. While Ven is hovering above Sora as he's slowly sinking, I can just picture Ven fretting over what to do before fitting his armor over Sora. Such an underrated moment.

I want the first face to face moment between Sora and Roxas/Sora and Ven to be special. While Sora and Vanitas meeting face to face... that outta be interesting. I wonder if Vanitas even knows who Sora is, or rather, I wonder if anyone other than Ven knows of his and Sora's deep connection.

 

[shady543]

Ah this is really well-written and is exactly how I feel, so this is a really great job at reviewing Twilight Lumiiar! So happy someone made this topic since the term 'brother' getting thrown around suddenly in this franchise was really surprising to me but I also really liked it. As someone who has a close bond with my older sister I can really relate to this, so finally seeing it as well as friendship is really great to me ;w;

I honestly never thought of the possibility that Sora and Roxas as well as even Vani and Ven could be seen as a sibling relationship. Always just thought they would turn out as best friends in the end if everything was successful. For Sora and Roxas being brothers, I am 100% down for it since like Zip said it makes it separate to Sora's close friendship with other male characters like Riku, Goofy and Donald. It make sense at the same time with Roxas being the nobody to Sora and all, and how he is basically a twin with Ven's hair cuz reasons. Its honestly the best outcome for their relationship, just.... my god I'm so happy it was implied. Also could give some hope that Roxas is relevant in future kh games if he is the brother of the bloody main protag lol.

As for Vani and Ven, the only way it can work is if Vani cuts it out with everything he is doing lately like trying to kill his supposed back up plan all the time lol. This 'brother' relationship is going to be weird because I highly doubt Ven sees Vani the same way. And also Vani called Ven his 'little brother' despite himself actually being the younger one technically lol, which is definitely that superiority complex showing. It was definitely a right step in the direction for him to start calling Ven his 'brother' instead of his 'other half'. Considering he used to call Ven his 'better half', he seems to see Ven as more of an equal after he got defeated by him. I taste character development. Now that the theory of him using Ven's body can finally die it's safe to say that good character development between him and Ven can actually happen that will hopefully turn into a brother dynamic by the end of the game, or maybe kh4.

Also if Sora and Roxas are gonna become bros, then by right the same should happen to Kairi and Namine, which I'm also keen to see and hopefully happens. Just wonder what would happen with Xion then lol. And if they do become siblings, hopefully Sora and Kairi treat them as a true sibling and let them be adopted since they don't have parents of their own. >:]

 

[DarkGrey Heroine]

What a well-written analysis, thank you for putting all this into words. As a Vanitas-fan, I am truly happy to already see a large number of scenes in which Vanitas appears in the latest trailers, that means his role is used more in KH3, a good sign because his design is one of the most interesting in my opinion. I am also happy to see him use the word "brother" when referring to Ven, which is in itself a very precise concept coming with a lot of baggage - it indicates they are made out of the same "material"/source/flesh if I may say, it indicates they have the same origin, it indicates they are bonded beyond their free will with "Unbreakable Chains", in short, it indicates they share everything, no matter how different they are and what other bonds they create or destroy around themselves.

Xehanort set Vanitas on a path to his extermination, and I doubt Vanitas didn't realize this. Xehanort wanted the X-blade, not perserving one half or the other of his experimental subject. It would only be natural for Vanitas at some point to at least think if all this is necessary, if they can't both exist separately somehow, but it could be he really was too broken to care if he dies so I don't expect a young dark suffering boi to contemplate much at that point, he probably just wanted to be whole and end the whole Unversed negative emotion flood. Back then it was only this one goal that drove him to his final battle. But now that the final battle apparently didn't kill neither Vanitas nor Ventus? Now what? If we see Vanitas so casually sitting on top of Ven's throne, being able to talk, think, walk around... then the question "What am I going to do with you, brother?" is very well-founded, indeed the most appropriate question to ask for a person who still lives, is conscious and... observant.

Finally, the time that Vanitas asks questions has come. The time has come that he finds answers on his own, not by being fed misinformation again and again.

*edit* I wanted to add something: Vanitas, while asking the question there, doesn't wear a black coat.

But no, Sora and Vanitas blow it out of the water and imply their other half is not just their other half, but their brother. I was squealing. I think Roxas and Sora's feels for one another are... pretty mutual? Last we saw of Roxas, he was pretty subdued and accepted his fate. When Sora didn't accept that, Roxas had the sweetest smile on and held Sora's hands. Urg. I don't think Roxas is happy with his situation, but I don't think Roxas blames Sora for it either. Not anymore...

This is very much true, re:coded's ending was like a visual representation of Roxas letting his anger out on Sora and finally letting go of that rage, while Data!Sora embraced the pain Data!Roxas carried, which is a key thing for current!Sora to do in order to "undo the hurt to unbar the way". I, too, think that Roxas has accepted what happened as his unfortunate destiny, but Sora of course still wants to figure out a way to let Roxas be his own Somebody.

 

[shady543]

^ Got to agree with everything there. Vanitas has always been an interesting one and I'm super keen to see his role in KH3 especially now that it's bigger than just appearing in a Disney world (if he gets to do a large speech that lasts for the majority of the trailer, that's pretty darn big). Like for one he is shown to not wear the coat all the time despite it being the trademark of the SOD, which to me seems like he is still doing things on his own accord. Also is he still wanting to merge with Ven now that he isn't calling Ven his other half like he used to? If merging isn't the plan then what else is he planning for Ven's heart? Now that we can rule out the theory that his heart was placed in Ven's body so he can come back, is his face still sora's or is it back to being what it used to be? How the heck did he come back if it wasn't through time-travel?

In all honestly, just using this term 'brother' alone ends up sparking a lot of questions from me and I love it lol.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I certainly appreciate the analysis made by OP and in terms of Sora and Roxas it may indeed hit 100% of the mark in terms of Sora's feelings and Roxas likely reciprocating at least to a degree coming from their short interactions in DDD.

Vanitas and Ventus certainly cannot be viewed along the same axis just because Vanitas now used the word "brother" once and that still in a tone that still implies Ventus has to act and do things how he wants it. Calling Ventus "brother" means nothing when he still sees him as an object to own and with whom he can "do" things.
Ventus on his part has already made clear in BBS itself that he's through with Vanitas (Destiny Islands) and that he doesn't want to associate with him in any form.
While Roxas also had an antipathy towards Sora for a while, it was an entirely different beast to Ven's, who as a direct victim of Vanitas' actions has every right to reject him.

In terms of the other three relationships that may be involved though, namely Sora & Ven, Vanitas & Sora and Ventus & Roxas, the OP doesn't go into detail, yet especially the first of these, Sora & Ven is for me personally the most interesting one because it was already stated as be very special more than once yet got almost no coverage so far.

 

[Luminary]

I certainly appreciate the analysis made by OP and in terms of Sora and Roxas it may indeed hit 100% of the mark in terms of Sora's feelings and Roxas likely reciprocating at least to a degree coming from their short interactions in DDD.

Vanitas and Ventus certainly cannot be viewed along the same axis just because Vanitas now used the word "brother" once and that still in a tone that still implies Ventus has to act and do things how he wants it. Calling Ventus "brother" means nothing when he still sees him as an object to own and with whom he can "do" things.
Ventus on his part has already made clear in BBS itself that he's through with Vanitas (Destiny Islands) and that he doesn't want to associate with him in any form.
While Roxas also had an antipathy towards Sora for a while, it was an entirely different beast to Ven's, who as a direct victim of Vanitas' actions has every right to reject him.

In terms of the other three relationships that may be involved though, namely Sora & Ven, Vanitas & Sora and Ventus & Roxas, the OP doesn't go into detail, yet especially the first of these, Sora & Ven is for me personally the most interesting one because it was already stated as be very special more than once yet got almost no coverage so far.

You can be related to someone and not be fond of them. That’s why the theme of brotherhood still works just fine with Ventus and Vanitas. Like it or not, they’re connected. As I said, this puts them in direct contrast with Sora and Roxas to show the difference between a healthy brotherhood and a non-healthy one.

 

[DarkGrey Heroine]

I have to disagree there, Sephy, this time, and agree with Zip. True that we can still interpret his line as Vanitas thinking about what to do with "his" other half/"his" possession, but using the term "brother" is a lot coming from Vanitas who only saw him as, well, a "half", a weaker half that is. He could have used any other neutral term, but "brother" implies a connection/a bond, and this bond in itself is nothing but a bond until we'll find out what kind of bond that is - a bond of hatred, a bond of possesion, a bond of affection (ugh, unlikely, but I can't rule it out just for the sake of it), or a bond of inferior-superior with some problematic complexes behind. "Brother" isn't in itself a morally positive term, nor is a brotherly bond alone. The nuance of the bond will show as we play KH3, probably/I hope, but until then, well, "brother" is one hell of a term.
You see, calling Ven "half" isn't as humane-ly personal as "brother", that's why I can't ignore the choice of words, especially from someone known for impulsivity and aggressiveness

But I still can't help but ask - if Vanitas is so free as to stay on top of his throne and contemplate, and if he is as impulsive and blindly mad as we assume this sadistic edgeboi is, then why doesn't he just kill Ventus on spot. Still obeying Xehanort so much? Really? What if their existence is so tied that killing one means losing both... again and for good this time? There's a lot of possibilities, they are still a favourite of mine to think about. Just what were you, Ventus... and what are you two...

 

[alexis.anagram]

I think this is a really neat topic with a lot of layers to it. The notion of "family" in KH has always been more symbolic than literal as a construct, applied mainly to drive home the series' central philosophies surrounding themes of identity: its components, its development over time, and the impact it has on how we view and relate to others. It has always been an existential question in KH, too: can one affirm one's own existence and purpose solely through one's close bonds with others, or is there a deeper individualist instinct to wage conflict in pursuit of one's personal ideals and desires for self-actualization?

Although it wasn't until BBS that the use of familial language became pronounced, the framing of character relationships through intimate bonding which stretches back through childhood is present from KH1 on, augmented by the unspoken association of true and lasting friendship with an even fiercer and more protective underlying kinship which presents within all of our lead triads. This encourages a subtextual reading of what are otherwise unrelated people as coded "family" in various states of function and dysfunction reflective (though not strictly derivative) of real-world family dynamics. And there's an argument to be made that these substitutions for "true" depictions of family in the sense of blood relations, which the series typically avoids, are all the more evocative because of the element of choice involved in their formation: that because the protagonists elect to position themselves in this intimate fashion with one another, that dynamic is all the more compelling and enduring. That's made clear when casting that argument against the forceful means by which Xehanort assembles his makeshift kin-group where, in terms of the series' internal mechanisms, he curtails their will and agency in order to subjugate them through the dissemination of his "flesh and blood" (his heart), making them his misbegotten "children" of sorts. This, by contrast, is clearly delineated as villainous and toxic, a persistent form of spiritual violence which is nevertheless doomed to failure, and that highlights just how valued free will is within the context of interpersonal relationships in KH.

Birth by Sleep is interesting because it chooses to promote the symbolism to text, applying terms like "brother" and "father" in specific albeit still non-literal ways, leaning more directly into its familial framework than previous titles did. So we get scenes like the one where Aqua compares Ven and Terra's likeness to that of brothers, which ends up being sort of sad in hindsight because it's used to implicitly establish how she's been frozen out of that dynamic to an extent-- never is she referred to as "sister" to either of them, which makes for a deliberate distinction coherent with her role in the story as someone who tries and fails to both literally and figuratively reach both of them, time and time again. Even more notable is Terra's reference to Eraqus as "father": it's a deliberate and conscious reach for that word on his part which at once revises and clarifies his entire relationship to Eraqus or at least how he viewed himself in relation to Eraqus, or perhaps what he wanted to be to Eraqus, and it's like he only realized in that moment how fully he failed himself because he failed to become that. It's a moment of genuine identification, that act of seeing oneself through or even as someone else which is so prevalent in KH with its constant placement of characters who are like bits and pieces of one another, who are so entrenched in their connections and who borrow powers and faces from one another, and who are made to come to terms with their position, their histories and their very existence within that schema, for better or for worse. A lot like family, indeed.

I've thought for a while now that KH3 would be (or ought to be) primarily of this spiritual quality in its orientation: that the hardest and most meaningful questions it will ask and answer will be aimed at deconstructing and reconstructing contexts in which these characters and their universe are understood at the level of the "soul": after all, one of the central mysteries left to be confronted in this title is the question of Kingdom Hearts-- the "heart of all worlds." I think that in order to approach that sort of divine state of complexity which the concept of Kingdom Hearts represents, they'll need to have looked inwards and searched for the parts of themselves that exist in continuity with it, and one component of that process will be how they have looked to each other and recognized and chosen to define that spiritual kinship which both links them together and defines them as individuals.

So I guess what I'm trying to get at is, for me, when I saw that scene in the trailer, I didn't think of a direct implication behind Sora's vision of Roxas and the Twilight Town kids as sibling identification. Moreso I thought that it was representative of that thematic connection between Sora and Roxas, an indication that they exist in spiritual relation to one another and Roxas's identity endures through that connection. The scene shows that Sora "sees" Roxas, which makes Roxas manifest even if he isn't really there, because what makes up a person in Kingdom Hearts isn't body or blood but spirit and memory, and even those who have passed on like Tadashi can still lend their strength and will to their loved ones.

The scene with Vanitas, on the other hand, is likely intended as a perversion of this motif as it relates to Ven and himself, where he refers to Ven as his "brother" but here it represents a claim to domination or to a kind of ownership, in the same way that Xehanort's agenda and methods invert the bigger picture in contrast with the heroes. Vanitas invokes the symbolism of family directly in order to mark Ven as something which belongs to or with him, an assertion which carries a blasphemous inflection because Ven's body is empty and has no agency: Vanitas shows his contempt for the other by directing a rhetorical question at him which he knows Ven can't answer. To Vanitas, Ven's will only matters insofar as it provides him with an opportunity to best it and affirm his (Vanitas's) own existence through the diminution and, ultimately, the erasure of Ven.

So these two dynamics, that of Sora and Roxas, and that of Vanitas and Ven, do contrast nicely, and provide some ideas about what KH3 intends to say by bringing them into focus.

 

[ImVentus]

I agree with kirabook on the Ven & Sora bond.
Ever since newborn Sora first saved his heart, they have had a rather distant but powerful connection. And by the tragedy of BBS climax, Ven found himself at peace with Sora who proudly let him rest within his heart.

This is where I come to the wonderful theory and fan favourite that Ven was by Sora's side growing up and be his voice of hope and strength. There's this beautiful animatic by Charlie Co, where a young Sora is feeling worthless, cause he can't be as good as Riku in sword fighting. Then there is this transparent Ven sitting next to him on a palm tree and comforts him. I love this portrayal and development for Sora's & Ven's deep connection.
Canon wise, their connection has meant a lot in Coded & DDD. By the events of KH3 we can still see that Ven is very protective of Sora when he faces Vanitas in Monstropolis. But once Sora sees Ven for the first time I wonder if Ven will still feel like the older brother figure. Personally I love the idea that Sora see's Ven as his older brother.

Familial themes is a warm welcome to the series, I'm happy that the relationships in the past have still been rather deep and more so than just friends with the original characters. For example the relationship with Sora & Repliku was rather interesting contrast from real Riku, and it was nice to see in the end that Repliku overcame his planted memories and helped his most hated rival, to become his close friend.

The data Sora & Riku relationship in Coded, I find very underrated. Sure they're data, but their interactions are so reminiscent to that of very affective bros that respect one another yet also shows some deep level of loyalty. As a whole Sora's & Riku's relationship is very easy to follow yet also very powerful and can be depicted in many different ways.

Vanitas character has potential for some complex interactions with Ven that I think will be explored. His interaction with Ven in the chamber is most likely from the early start of the game, since Vanitas is acting rather motivated by the time he confronts Ven's heart in Monstropolis. Don't forget he calls Ven "A insignificant speck", which Ven's heart triggers Sora. If Vanitas can be explored more than that of bully with some need for affection mixed together with need for superiority that would be something to build on his background. It's also known that predators play with their prey before finishing the meal (What I'm saying is that Vanitas could possibly mock Ven and try to traumatise him just so he can enjoy feeling like his other half is downgraded with nothing but the knowing that Vanitas will always be around. Cause that gives Vanitas more power and a sense of independence. I'd like to see the cards turn and play around with their dynamic to Sora & Roxas just so that their relationship can develop into something meaningful.

Where's the fun in killing your enemy if you can make their remains fade away in a slow and painful demise, (Now that is one hell of a sadistic thought) But I don't doubt that Vanitas may have had that thought in mind.

 

[Any]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Like what Zip said, I want Vanitas to see Sora and Ventus having a solid relationship and perceive how that affects him about his relationship with Ventus. (I also want Vanitas to see Roxas and Sora solid relationship too.) I HOPE that Vanitas gets envious of Sora and Ventus relationship however I also hope Vanitas gets sad that Sora and Ventus connection/relationship is the reason behind why Vanitas have Sora's face. Vanitas understanding that Sora and Ventus relationship is more grounded and healthier than his relationship with Ventus. I wish we knew WHY Vanitas hates Ventus and I hope we get a backstory for Vanitas[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Sephiroth0812]

You can be related to someone and not be fond of them. That’s why the theme of brotherhood still works just fine with Ventus and Vanitas. Like it or not, they’re connected. As I said, this puts them in direct contrast with Sora and Roxas to show the difference between a healthy brotherhood and a non-healthy one.

Uh, we know that they're still connected ever since BBS though, that is nothing new.
What I wanted to point out is that a) their actual relationship doesn't change just because Vanitas chooses to use different semantics while still holding the same views as before towards Ven and b) Ven's own stance on the matter was made clear in BBS already. To him it doesn't matter who or what Vanitas is, he doesn't want to have anything to do with him and would rather destroy them both than accept Vanitas around him.
So far there aren't any indicators that Ventus has changed his stance on the matter nor has Vanitas given any incentive for him to think about changing it. He's still the violent stalker attacking his friends and babbling about taking Ven's heart like it is an object to be owned.

I have to disagree there, Sephy, this time, and agree with Zip. True that we can still interpret his line as Vanitas thinking about what to do with "his" other half/"his" possession, but using the term "brother" is a lot coming from Vanitas who only saw him as, well, a "half", a weaker half that is. He could have used any other neutral term, but "brother" implies a connection/a bond, and this bond in itself is nothing but a bond until we'll find out what kind of bond that is - a bond of hatred, a bond of possesion, a bond of affection (ugh, unlikely, but I can't rule it out just for the sake of it), or a bond of inferior-superior with some problematic complexes behind. "Brother" isn't in itself a morally positive term, nor is a brotherly bond alone. The nuance of the bond will show as we play KH3, probably/I hope, but until then, well, "brother" is one hell of a term.
You see, calling Ven "half" isn't as humane-ly personal as "brother", that's why I can't ignore the choice of words, especially from someone known for impulsivity and aggressiveness

But I still can't help but ask - if Vanitas is so free as to stay on top of his throne and contemplate, and if he is as impulsive and blindly mad as we assume this sadistic edgeboi is, then why doesn't he just kill Ventus on spot. Still obeying Xehanort so much? Really? What if their existence is so tied that killing one means losing both... again and for good this time? There's a lot of possibilities, they are still a favourite of mine to think about. Just what were you, Ventus... and what are you two...

We have to just agree to disagree then, since as I already said above to Zip, just Vanitas changing semantics doesn't mean anything if he doesn't show a shift in actual actions and views, and what we've have seen so far of him doesn't indicate such a change. Not to mention that this view on the matter completely ignores Ventus' own feelings and opinions on it, which we did get an example of during the last third of BBS starting with their confrontation on Destiny Islands.


The "bond" between them and the connection between their hearts already exists also since BBS itself, so I am not convinced that changing a single word in the vocabulary with all other factors still the same means something hugely positive.
On the contrary, especially when you use the term "more humanly personal" in this context it comes over as even more creepy, possessive and uncomfortable.

I admit though I don't see why you try to connect Vanitas so much with past Ventus as both Xehanort's Report in BBS and what we've seen of Ven in Ux so far point towards him not being much different personality wise to present Ven and Vanitas was an empty creature shaped majorly by Xehanort.

The scene with Vanitas, on the other hand, is likely intended as a perversion of this motif as it relates to Ven and himself, where he refers to Ven as his "brother" but here it represents a claim to domination or to a kind of ownership, in the same way that Xehanort's agenda and methods invert the bigger picture in contrast with the heroes. Vanitas invokes the symbolism of family directly in order to mark Ven as something which belongs to or with him, an assertion which carries a blasphemous inflection because Ven's body is empty and has no agency: Vanitas shows his contempt for the other by directing a rhetorical question at him which he knows Ven can't answer. To Vanitas, Ven's will only matters insofar as it provides him with an opportunity to best it and affirm his (Vanitas's) own existence through the diminution and, ultimately, the erasure of Ven.

Yea, that's exactly what I got from the whole issue as well and why I said it can't be viewed on the same axis as Sora and Roxas.

 

[Twilight Lumiair]

*Comes back from school and sees all the wonderful replies. Tries to not to smile too hard.*
Thank you for all the amazing replies, I'm so happy to see people talking about this!

I think it is really interesting and clever how Sora and Roxas’ relationship seems like it will be a foil to that of Ventus and Vanitas. All Sora wants is to allow Roxas to be his own person while Vanitas wants the opposite, to be whole with his other half. I think that will set up an effective conflict between Sora and Vanitas as they try to accomplish their goals. I really hope this idea of brotherhood is explored further as I think it is the best way to make Sora and Roxas’ relationship different from the one he has with Riku and other male characters.


Also, I want Vanitas to witness Sora and Roxas having a healthy relationship and see how that makes him feel about his relationship with Ventus.

Exactly. This is pretty much what I'm expecting (hoping?) to happen. It'll be a slow burn, but if Sora can plant the idea of co-existence or a healthy relationship in Vanitas' mind, intentionally or not, that could certainly be a start to what might be a really compelling arc for the character.


​

I want a scenario with these four traveling together and Vanitas making smarmy comments when the other boys try to have fun and enjoy themselves. We've got sitcom potential with these four.

Lol, I think we need to give the fan-fiction writers some credit in this department. I've come across dozens of AU's where people write about exactly that (not that I read them or anything.....).

I've wanted this development my whole life. Seriously, I've always loved the idea of Sora and Roxas (and Ven) becoming like brothers. I never thought it would happen because KH doesn't really do family bonds between the original cast, at most it'd be super friendship or something.

But no, Sora and Vanitas blow it out of the water and imply their other half is not just their other half, but their brother. I was squealing. I think Roxas and Sora's feels for one another are... pretty mutual? Last we saw of Roxas, he was pretty subdued and accepted his fate. When Sora didn't accept that, Roxas had the sweetest smile on and held Sora's hands. Urg. I don't think Roxas is happy with his situation, but I don't think Roxas blames Sora for it either. Not anymore...

Ven feels nothing for Vanitas and pretty much wants nothing to do with him for obvious reasons. Unlike Vanitas, Ven doesn't appear to feel the need to feel whole because of his connection with Sora.

Which brings me to Sora and Ven. I think Ven has a lot of affection for Sora. The smol boy saved his life twice and gave him a safe place to rest. Sora taking in Ven's heart at the end of BbS was so sweet. Ven sounded so pleased to 'meet' Sora and grateful to him. Like, "Ah, finally. I know who you are, but I'm also so tired." What really got me quaking is when Ven finally sparkled to life in DDD and came out to protect Sora anyway he could. While Ven is hovering above Sora as he's slowly sinking, I can just picture Ven fretting over what to do before fitting his armor over Sora. Such an underrated moment.

I want the first face to face moment between Sora and Roxas/Sora and Ven to be special. While Sora and Vanitas meeting face to face... that outta be interesting. I wonder if Vanitas even knows who Sora is, or rather, I wonder if anyone other than Ven knows of his and Sora's deep connection.

Saaame! I was, honestly, completely taken off guard when I saw these scenes in trailer, and if I wasn't drowsy, I probably would've squealed too!

But concerning your comment, I don't really think Ven wants much to do with Vani either, at least up to this point. I never really touched on Ven's perspective much though since we haven't really seen it yet. I see it as more of a slow burn, where we see Vanitas and Ven's feelings slowly change over the course of, most likely, several games. Unlike Sora, Ventus can be rather unbending when concerning his feelings towards people. In any case, you don't really have to like each other to be considered siblings, so it's possible we may see a much more strained relationship going forward to contrast Sora & Roxas'.

Ah this is really well-written and is exactly how I feel, so this is a really great job at reviewing Twilight Lumiiar! So happy someone made this topic since the term 'brother' getting thrown around suddenly in this franchise was really surprising to me but I also really liked it. As someone who has a close bond with my older sister I can really relate to this, so finally seeing it as well as friendship is really great to me ;w;

I honestly never thought of the possibility that Sora and Roxas as well as even Vani and Ven could be seen as a sibling relationship. Always just thought they would turn out as best friends in the end if everything was successful. For Sora and Roxas being brothers, I am 100% down for it since like Zip said it makes it separate to Sora's close friendship with other male characters like Riku, Goofy and Donald. It make sense at the same time with Roxas being the nobody to Sora and all, and how he is basically a twin with Ven's hair cuz reasons. Its honestly the best outcome for their relationship, just.... my god I'm so happy it was implied. Also could give some hope that Roxas is relevant in future kh games if he is the brother of the bloody main protag lol.

As for Vani and Ven, the only way it can work is if Vani cuts it out with everything he is doing lately like trying to kill his supposed back up plan all the time lol. This 'brother' relationship is going to be weird because I highly doubt Ven sees Vani the same way. And also Vani called Ven his 'little brother' despite himself actually being the younger one technically lol, which is definitely that superiority complex showing. It was definitely a right step in the direction for him to start calling Ven his 'brother' instead of his 'other half'. Considering he used to call Ven his 'better half', he seems to see Ven as more of an equal after he got defeated by him. I taste character development. Now that the theory of him using Ven's body can finally die it's safe to say that good character development between him and Ven can actually happen that will hopefully turn into a brother dynamic by the end of the game, or maybe kh4.

Also if Sora and Roxas are gonna become bros, then by right the same should happen to Kairi and Namine, which I'm also keen to see and hopefully happens. Just wonder what would happen with Xion then lol. And if they do become siblings, hopefully Sora and Kairi treat them as a true sibling and let them be adopted since they don't have parents of their own. >:]

Thank you! I'm just happy you appreciated it really^^. But yeah, strong familial relationships are something I don't think is presented nearly enough, nor do the ones I see really explore just how complicated and different they can be from normal friendships or rivalries. Unfortunately, I never personally had a strong, positive relationship with my siblings, but I imagine it to be pleasant.

???: Vanitas! Stop trying to murder your brothers friend her sleep!
Vanitas: But MOOOM, my teacher asked me toooo!

Yeah, I also found Vani's condescension to be rather ironic too, especially with him(Ven) appearing in Union X. Nomura did say that the new union leaders would have a pretty strong presence in the background and context of some scenes in KH3, so I'm really curious how that'll work with Ven still being around. As for Sora and Roxas, I'm right there with you. For all the time we hear about Sora's family, we never actually get to meet them, so this feels like it's been such a long time coming and I couldn't be more happy about it. Kairi's family should technically be in Radiant Garden, I wonder who took her in. And yes, I've waited how many years for Roxas to come back? I certainly hope he stays relevant in a major way going forward.

What a well-written analysis, thank you for putting all this into words. As a Vanitas-fan, I am truly happy to already see a large number of scenes in which Vanitas appears in the latest trailers, that means his role is used more in KH3, a good sign because his design is one of the most interesting in my opinion. I am also happy to see him use the word "brother" when referring to Ven, which is in itself a very precise concept coming with a lot of baggage - it indicates they are made out of the same "material"/source/flesh if I may say, it indicates they have the same origin, it indicates they are bonded beyond their free will with "Unbreakable Chains", in short, it indicates

they share everything, no matter how different they are and what other bonds they create or destroy around themselves.

Xehanort set Vanitas on a path to his extermination, and I doubt Vanitas didn't realize this. Xehanort wanted the X-blade, not perserving one half or the other of his experimental subject. It would only be natural for Vanitas at some point to at least think if all this is necessary, if they can't both exist separately somehow, but it could be he really was too broken to care if he dies so I don't expect a young dark suffering boi to contemplate much at that point, he probably just wanted to be whole and end the whole Unversed negative emotion flood. Back then it was only this one goal that drove him to his final battle. But now that the final battle apparently didn't kill neither Vanitas nor Ventus? Now what? If we see Vanitas so casually sitting on top of Ven's throne, being able to talk, think, walk around... then the question "What am I going to do with you, brother?" is very well-founded, indeed the most appropriate question to ask for a person who still lives, is conscious and... observant.

Finally, the time that Vanitas asks questions has come. The time has come that he finds answers on his own, not by being fed misinformation again and again.

*edit* I wanted to add something: Vanitas, while asking the question there, doesn't wear a black coat.

Once again, thank you. More than anything I'm just glad it hit so close to home for you

But yes, the terminology Vanitas used is holds a much different meaning than what he used previously. No matter how you feel about your siblings, they're still your siblings. For Vanitas to make that distinction himself means, not only is he potentially considering co-existence, but he still would choose to create a connection with Ven that he doesn't have with anyone else. If he gave up on trying to fuse with Ven, he could just as easily not go out of his way not to acknowledge him as anything other that. A tool. But that's not what he did in that scene, and it's not like Ven could've really convinced him to either (the boy is fast asleep). I really do hope this is the start of him forming his own connections with people and coming to his own conclusions about his existence.

^ Got to agree with everything there. Vanitas has always been an interesting one and I'm super keen to see his role in KH3 especially now that it's bigger than just appearing in a Disney world (if he gets to do a large speech that lasts for the majority of the trailer, that's pretty darn big). Like for one he is shown to not wear the coat all the time despite it being the trademark of the SOD, which to me seems like he is still doing things on his own accord. Also is he still wanting to merge with Ven now that he isn't calling Ven his other half like he used to? If merging isn't the plan then what else is he planning for Ven's heart? Now that we can rule out the theory that his heart was placed in Ven's body so he can come back, is his face still sora's or is it back to being what it used to be? How the heck did he come back if it wasn't through time-travel?

In all honestly, just using this term 'brother' alone ends up sparking a lot of questions from me and I love it lol.

So many question, questions, QUESTIONS! ...That I'm really hoping we get the answers too. Please Nomura.

I certainly appreciate the analysis made by OP and in terms of Sora and Roxas it may indeed hit 100% of the mark in terms of Sora's feelings and Roxas likely reciprocating at least to a degree coming from their short interactions in DDD.

Vanitas and Ventus certainly cannot be viewed along the same axis just because Vanitas now used the word "brother" once and that still in a tone that still implies Ventus has to act and do things how he wants it. Calling Ventus "brother" means nothing when he still sees him as an object to own and with whom he can "do" things.
Ventus on his part has already made clear in BBS itself that he's through with Vanitas (Destiny Islands) and that he doesn't want to associate with him in any form.
While Roxas also had an antipathy towards Sora for a while, it was an entirely different beast to Ven's, who as a direct victim of Vanitas' actions has every right to reject him.

In terms of the other three relationships that may be involved though, namely Sora & Ven, Vanitas & Sora and Ventus & Roxas, the OP doesn't go into detail, yet especially the first of these, Sora & Ven is for me personally the most interesting one because it was already stated as be very special more than once yet got almost no coverage so far.

*Gasp* A response from THAT user? I'm so honored!

Thank you for the compliment! And before I go on, I appreciate the difference in opinion. That's what forums are for!

I had a feeling you'd say exactly this. I never really went into Ven and Roxas' feelings very much cause, well.... 1) That's yet to be seen, and 2) I wanted everyone else's feelings regarding that. Guess I should have made that more clear in the OP.

I'm not really expecting any immediate shifting regarding Ventus' feelings since, as I said in a previous response, he is rather unbending (and for good enough reason). But strictly in terms of Vani, it's still important to understand that the subtext that comes with the word "brother" and the word "half" are still very different. One's less human I guess you can say. It doesn't necessarily have to be positive (certainly not at first anyways) for the game to still explore familial themes here. Me and my brother have a somewhat strained relationship where he constantly belittles me or we get into a fight, but we're still brothers, and we're never gonna go out of our way to deny that. Still, I understand that consent is important, but siblings are tied together by a fate (if you believe in that) out of their control, and it's a bond in origin that you simply can't break. Edit: After reading your other responses, I think I can understand how you feel (though I'm still standing by my overall thoughts). It's really just a matter of interpretation I guess, and I enjoyed yours. Thanks for the response!

Edit:

I think this is a really neat topic with a lot of layers to it. The notion of "family" in KH has always been more symbolic than literal as a construct, applied mainly to drive home the series' central philosophies surrounding themes of identity: its components, its development over time, and the impact it has on how we view and relate to others. It has always been an existential question in KH, too: can one affirm one's own existence and purpose solely through one's close bonds with others, or is there a deeper individualist instinct to wage conflict in pursuit of one's personal ideals and desires for self-actualization?

Although it wasn't until BBS that the use of familial language became pronounced, the framing of character relationships through intimate bonding which stretches back through childhood is present from KH1 on, augmented by the unspoken association of true and lasting friendship with an even fiercer and more protective underlying kinship which presents within all of our lead triads. This encourages a subtextual reading of what are otherwise unrelated people as coded "family" in various states of function and dysfunction reflective (though not strictly derivative) of real-world family dynamics. And there's an argument to be made that these substitutions for "true" depictions of family in the sense of blood relations, which the series typically avoids, are all the more evocative because of the element of choice involved in their formation: that because the protagonists elect to position themselves in this intimate fashion with one another, that dynamic is all the more compelling and enduring. That's made clear when casting that argument against the forceful means by which Xehanort assembles his makeshift kin-group where, in terms of the series' internal mechanisms, he curtails their will and agency in order to subjugate them through the dissemination of his "flesh and blood" (his heart), making them his misbegotten "children" of sorts. This, by contrast, is clearly delineated as villainous and toxic, a persistent form of spiritual violence which is nevertheless doomed to failure, and that highlights just how valued free will is within the context of interpersonal relationships in KH.

Birth by Sleep is interesting because it chooses to promote the symbolism to text, applying terms like "brother" and "father" in specific albeit still non-literal ways, leaning more directly into its familial framework than previous titles did. So we get scenes like the one where Aqua compares Ven and Terra's likeness to that of brothers, which ends up being sort of sad in hindsight because it's used to implicitly establish how she's been frozen out of that dynamic to an extent-- never is she referred to as "sister" to either of them, which makes for a deliberate distinction coherent with her role in the story as someone who tries and fails to both literally and figuratively reach both of them, time and time again. Even more notable is Terra's reference to Eraqus as "father": it's a deliberate and conscious reach for that word on his part which at once revises and clarifies his entire relationship to Eraqus or at least how he viewed himself in relation to Eraqus, or perhaps what he wanted to be to Eraqus, and it's like he only realized in that moment how fully he failed himself because he failed to become that. It's a moment of genuine identification, that act of seeing oneself through or even as someone else which is so prevalent in KH with its constant placement of characters who are like bits and pieces of one another, who are so entrenched in their connections and who borrow powers and faces from one another, and who are made to come to terms with their position, their histories and their very existence within that schema, for better or for worse. A lot like family, indeed.

I've thought for a while now that KH3 would be (or ought to be) primarily of this spiritual quality in its orientation: that the hardest and most meaningful questions it will ask and answer will be aimed at deconstructing and reconstructing contexts in which these characters and their universe are understood at the level of the "soul": after all, one of the central mysteries left to be confronted in this title is the question of Kingdom Hearts-- the "heart of all worlds." I think that in order to approach that sort of divine state of complexity which the concept of Kingdom Hearts represents, they'll need to have looked inwards and searched for the parts of themselves that exist in continuity with it, and one component of that process will be how they have looked to each other and recognized and chosen to define that spiritual kinship which both links them together and defines them as individuals.

So I guess what I'm trying to get at is, for me, when I saw that scene in the trailer, I didn't think of a direct implication behind Sora's vision of Roxas and the Twilight Town kids as sibling identification. Moreso I thought that it was representative of that thematic connection between Sora and Roxas, an indication that they exist in spiritual relation to one another and Roxas's identity endures through that connection. The scene shows that Sora "sees" Roxas, which makes Roxas manifest even if he isn't really there, because what makes up a person in Kingdom Hearts isn't body or blood but spirit and memory, and even those who have passed on like Tadashi can still lend their strength and will to their loved ones.

The scene with Vanitas, on the other hand, is likely intended as a perversion of this motif as it relates to Ven and himself, where he refers to Ven as his "brother" but here it represents a claim to domination or to a kind of ownership, in the same way that Xehanort's agenda and methods invert the bigger picture in contrast with the heroes. Vanitas invokes the symbolism of family directly in order to mark Ven as something which belongs to or with him, an assertion which carries a blasphemous inflection because Ven's body is empty and has no agency: Vanitas shows his contempt for the other by directing a rhetorical question at him which he knows Ven can't answer. To Vanitas, Ven's will only matters insofar as it provides him with an opportunity to best it and affirm his (Vanitas's) own existence through the diminution and, ultimately, the erasure of Ven.

So these two dynamics, that of Sora and Roxas, and that of Vanitas and Ven, do contrast nicely, and provide some ideas about what KH3 intends to say by bringing them into focus.

See, THIS is why I'm such a huge fan of you! Your answers are always so thoughtful and beautifully constructed! I'd offer a response or some kind of retort, but I'm not sure I completely understand what you said. Still, I'd like to know, in your opinion, how do you think their relationships will pan out in the end?

 

[Luminary]

Uh, we know that they're still connected ever since BBS though, that is nothing new.
What I wanted to point out is that a) their actual relationship doesn't change just because Vanitas chooses to use different semantics while still holding the same views as before towards Ven and b) Ven's own stance on the matter was made clear in BBS already. To him it doesn't matter who or what Vanitas is, he doesn't want to have anything to do with him and would rather destroy them both than accept Vanitas around him.
So far there aren't any indicators that Ventus has changed his stance on the matter nor has Vanitas given any incentive for him to think about changing it. He's still the violent stalker attacking his friends and babbling about taking Ven's heart like it is an object to be owned.



We have to just agree to disagree then, since as I already said above to Zip, just Vanitas changing semantics doesn't mean anything if he doesn't show a shift in actual actions and views, and what we've have seen so far of him doesn't indicate such a change. Not to mention that this view on the matter completely ignores Ventus' own feelings and opinions on it, which we did get an example of during the last third of BBS starting with their confrontation on Destiny Islands.


The "bond" between them and the connection between their hearts already exists also since BBS itself, so I am not convinced that changing a single word in the vocabulary with all other factors still the same means something hugely positive.
On the contrary, especially when you use the term "more humanly personal" in this context it comes over as even more creepy, possessive and uncomfortable.

I admit though I don't see why you try to connect Vanitas so much with past Ventus as both Xehanort's Report in BBS and what we've seen of Ven in Ux so far point towards him not being much different personality wise to present Ven and Vanitas was an empty creature shaped majorly by Xehanort.



Yea, that's exactly what I got from the whole issue as well and why I said it can't be viewed on the same axis as Sora and Roxas.

My point is not to paint Vanitas as someone we should empathize with or want redeemed due to his seeing Ventus as his brother. Not even close. That’s exactly the opposite of what I’m saying. The brotherhood of Sora and Roxas is on the opposite end of the spectrum from that of Ven and Vanitas. The intent seems to be that we should feel positive that Sora is feeling this bond with Roxas because we know that Sora wants what is best for Roxas. However, we should feel uncomfortable that Vanitas views Ventus as a brother because it has more malicious meaning, like a Cain and Abel scenario.

Again, just because we are recognizing that they are like brothers does not mean we want them to hold hands and be besties. I have noticed you tend to be understandably defensive of Ventus whenever the subject of his relationship with Vanitas comes up, but this relationship is the centerpoint of Ventus’ storyline outside of his friendship with Terra and Aqua. It’s not going to be written out of the story just because Ventus doesn’t like Vanitas when that is the primary source of tension and conflict in his personal subplot.

 

[DarkGrey Heroine]

I guess in the end there are those who 1) believe a single word has meaning in this series always 2) don't believe a single word can have a meaning in this series always 3) do believe a single word can have a meaning only if it benefits their point of view.
Just on how many occasions did we center whole discussion around a single word or two in some dialogue of some character? Compared translations and voice acting and all that kind of stuff? Now a seemingly unredeemable antagonist uses a word he was never familiar with and we're going to dismiss the possibility of any kind of change from the "bad possessive psycho" image we painted him with? I appreciate the developed discussion but let's treat all characters equally.

Plus, this paragraph is @Sephy, in my reply I didn't think nor care about what Ventus thinks of the connection anymore or anything. I don't have interest in that at the moment, so I just specifically shared my thoughts on Vanitas. I want to allow both Vanitas and Ventus some space for different character development, not just the same simplistic "me good half you bad half we must fight" plot BBS delivered. And, I don't want to come across as offensive but I would like to ask you to control how defensive you get of Ventus just a little bit. :< it's happening pretty much... always, when Vanitas is mentioned
And yes I do want to see how past!Ventus, BBS!Ventus and current!Ventus can still be the same entity but share so many fragments of .. different lives tbh