Braig and Xigbar might be two different persons?

[Gram]

Re: braig and xigbar might be two different persons?

This is speculation on everyone's part, but aside form reusing a model, there isn't anything to suggest otherwise as far as I'm concerned. It's clear that Braig was recompleted along with everyone else, and then proceeds to go about setting parts of their plan in motion (in 2.5 ending it's taking Isa to be a vessel, and then in KH3D it's obviously the rest of the plan with Sora). Are we really suggesting that just because they reused the Braig model without modifying it (as in, giving him Xigbar's long hair) that it is concrete proof that both Xigbar and Braig are existing at the same time, as separate people? Nothing in the text suggests this to be the case, as the only other examples of a Somebody and a Nobody existing at the same time are in the cases of Special Nobodies which Xigbar is not. Assuming that Braig and Xigbar are separate people, existing at the same time, and are both vessels, why not reveal that in KH3D? Why keep "Braig"'s identity a secret in the ending scene? It doesn't make much sense, and the much simpler answer is that Braig and Xigbar are the same person, and the "Xigbar" seen at the end of KH3D is the recompleted Braig

Ah but the simple truth here is that your working on just as much speculation as everyone else but trying to pass yours off as an absolute fact over there's despite lacking just as much proof to the contrary.
And your ignoring DDD entirely. The main focus of DDD was Young Xehanort's time travel. His entire mission was to gather other versions of himself from throughout time.

But at the same time the only confirmed traveler is YX himself. This leaves open many, and to me personally, unwanted routes.
You could be seeing Xigbar from the past, you could be seeing replica technology, Braigs appearance could've been warped by Xehanort, etc. Your ignoring all of this in favor of a simpler answer when Nomura hardly, if not never, gives simple answers for this series in favor of his "surprising" convoluted ideas.

Then in 2.5 you have the recomplted Braig mentioning his own plans while the Xigbar in DDD was proudly exclaiming to be "half-xehanort".
DDD also lists both Braig and Xigbar individually but only Siax. Same for every former org member aside Lea who has a separate Axel entry.

Rather than trying to make your own word a fact you should use things that actually back your theory, like for example this:

—By the way, Braig’s dealings with Master Xehanort in Birth by Sleep make sense, he was to become a vessel.

Nomura: There is a certain reason for Braig to proudly exclaim, “As for me, I’m already half Xehanort.” Isa (Saix) is included too. I think you’ll understand the details about their circumstances eventually.

Here you have Nomura referring to who you saw in DDD as "Braig". While DDD's reports, namely the story section for TWTNW, refers to him as "Xigbar".
Between the game and interviews you have several moments where he is referred to by both names. I can find them for you if you wish but I'd like to think your not to lazy to turn the game on and check it personally if you have it.

In a series of over convolution such things are worth enough to make alternate theories to your own.

The laziness in question comes from having to make a NEW model. It's the same reason that they didn't bother making young versions of TAV even though they should have. It just wasn't worth the amount of work in their eyes. They already have both Xigbar and Braig models already made, so, using both Braig or both Xigbar isn't any more or less time saving than using the Braig model for the wake up scene and the Xigbar model for the other scenes.

That excuse is still incredibly lazy in of itself and makes little sense. Even you point out it doesn't affect time to use either.
They used both a model for Braig and Xigbar in DDD. One for the opening scene and another for Xigbar later. If they was gonna be lazy here they'd have used one for both. Ideally Braigs since you have to use Braig for anything pre-kh1.
If they was gonna be lazy they'd have used Braig at the end as well.

Why wouldn't he be? You think that all of the RG apprentices were recompleted but Xigbar? The whole Lea/Ienzo scene was about how Braig and Isa were recompleted, but they weren't there. So the question was not "Is Braig recompleted" it was "What happened to Braig and Isa" which is then answered by the ending of KH3D, and further fleshed out in the 2.5 ending.

Now your twisting peoples words. They never said Xigbar wasn't recompleted but asking if what we saw in DDD was Xigbar from the past.
The entire focus of DDD was time travel and dreams. YX's mission was to gather versions throughout time but at the same time the only one Nomura would say is a confirmed traveler is YX himself.

Then YX further adds to it by pointing out that once MX revives that "time for all of us will return to normal". The time travel hinged on Xehanort (present) being incomplete which was undone thanks to Ansem & Xemnas being destroyed.

That leaves room for several, albeit unwanted I think, routes. You could be seeing past versions in DDD while the present ones are doing other things, you could be seeing replicas, you could be seeing Xehanorts influence changing Braig back into Xigbar, etc.

The fact that only a handful of the members was revealed is crucial. For all we know both Braig AND Xigbar are there.

— Xigbar and Saix appeared as members of Organisation XIII. Did they return as humans like Lea and the others?
Nomura: The conditions of becoming a human have been met, so you’d think they had returned, wouldn’t you? For them to have been with Xehanort and the others, perhaps they were collected after they had become humans and before Lea and the others woke up.
Like I don't know why we're really arguing this point. Xigbar in KH3D is clearly the recompleted Braig. The only thing making people think otherwise is just because they didn't update Braig's model to resemble Xigbar more closely for a 2 minute cutscene.

We're arguing about it cause your trying to debunk others solely on your word alone. Even in that interview Nomura points out that he'd "rather you use your imagination". He only confirms the conditions have been met not that everyone you saw was their recompleted self in DDD.

----------

Now before you try, I'm not arguing against the possibility of your theory only against you trying to make your words a fact. There's room for several possible theories right now is what I'm trying to get across.

In all honesty I hope it is only Braig's appearance being warped by Xehanort's influence or that it's a past version. In either scenario that just leaves Braig for KH3. (unless MX has more trolls up his sleeves and brings back past version despite being complete)
I've honestly had it up to here with this series "multiple me syndrome" but I know better than to say multiples aren't possible thanks to the fact nearly every game has them.

I mean all one can really do in such a topic is throw ideas back and forth respectively talking out all possibilities, agree to disagree and drop it and wait to see who's right in KH3, or just keep dragging it around in circles as it keeps getting more and more heated till a mod steps in and closes while infracting everyone involved.

 

[Zebedy]

Re: braig and xigbar might be two different persons?

Ah but the simple truth here is that your working on just as much speculation as everyone else

s
Something I note in the very first sentence.

And your ignoring DDD entirely.

I'm really not.

But at the same time the only confirmed traveler is YX himself. This leaves open many, and to me personally, unwanted routes.
You could be seeing Xigbar from the past, you could be seeing replica technology, Braigs appearance could've been warped by Xehanort, etc. Your ignoring all of this in favor of a simpler answer when Nomura hardly, if not never, gives simple answers for this series in favor of his "surprising" convoluted ideas.

Compared to fan speculation, a lot of the series developments are not that convoluted and are often the simplest explanation. In this case, Xigbar/Braig being the same person in all post-kh2 scenes (Recompleted Braig, going by the name Xigbar) is the simplest explanation and causes the least amount of inconsistencies and problems with the text as it currently is.

Then in 2.5 you have the recomplted Braig mentioning his own plans while the Xigbar in DDD was proudly exclaiming to be "half-xehanort".

Consider that being half-Xehanort is part of his own plans.

DDD also lists both Braig and Xigbar individually but only Siax. Same for every former org member aside Lea who has a separate Axel entry.

They list him separately because Braig is featured prominently in a flashback scene. Whereas the recompleted Braig, as in the KH3D end, goes by Xigbar.

Basically, the names are interchangeable at this point because they're the same person.

Here you have Nomura referring to who you saw in DDD as "Braig". While DDD's reports, namely the story section for TWTNW, refers to him as "Xigbar".

It's almost like the names are used interchangeably because they are referring to the same person.

I can find them for you if you wish but I'd like to think your not to lazy to turn the game on and check it personally if you have it.

I can't really be bothered to do shit like that, because I already know the answer -- the names are used interchangeable to refer to the same person.

That excuse is still incredibly lazy in of itself and makes little sense. Even you point out it doesn't affect time to use either.
They used both a model for Braig and Xigbar in DDD. One for the opening scene and another for Xigbar later. If they was gonna be lazy here they'd have used one for both. Ideally Braigs since you have to use Braig for anything pre-kh1.
If they was gonna be lazy they'd have used Braig at the end as well.

Ooof. You don't even get where I am coming from and I'm too exasperated to care anymore.

They never said Xigbar wasn't recompleted but asking if what we saw in DDD was Xigbar from the past.

Nomura refers to the Xigbar seen in the end as his recompleted self, i.e. not one from the past.

For all we know both Braig AND Xigbar are there.

For all we know so is Mickey, but that doesn't exactly make it something worth seriously extrapolating on when there are simpler, more likely explanations already in the text.

Even in that interview Nomura points out that he'd "rather you use your imagination".

This is literally just Nomura code for "I won't say for sure this happened, but I'll make a cutscene about it later". And then he made a cutscene about it later showing explicitly exactly what he suggested in this interview.

against you trying to make your words a fact.

It only comes off that way because I'm confident in what I'm talking about and don't take the time to sugar coat things with pleasantries.

 

[Gram]

Re: braig and xigbar might be two different persons?

I'm really not.

Yeah you kinda are.

Compared to fan speculation, a lot of the series developments are not that convoluted and are often the simplest explanation. In this case, Xigbar/Braig being the same person in all post-kh2 scenes (Recompleted Braig, going by the name Xigbar) is the simplest explanation and causes the least amount of inconsistencies and problems with the text as it currently is.

They are that convoluted, just not explained well.

They list him separately because Braig is featured prominently in a flashback scene. Whereas the recompleted Braig, as in the KH3D end, goes by Xigbar.

Which is one possibility.

I can't really be bothered to do shit like that, because I already know the answer -- the names are used interchangeable to refer to the same person.

You don't know sh*t for certain at this point, no one does. If you can't be bothered to actually search for support of your own theory then you shouldn't be making them. It leaves no reason to take you or anything you post seriously because you don't take what your posting seriously.

It's the purest laziness.

Ooof. You don't even get where I am coming from and I'm too exasperated to care anymore.

I do get it and your obviously do care or you wouldn't still be posting.

Nomura refers to the Xigbar seen in the end as his recompleted self, i.e. not one from the past.

You yourself said the names are interchangeable meaning it could be referring to either.

For all we know so is Mickey, but that doesn't exactly make it something worth seriously extrapolating on when there are simpler, more likely explanations already in the text.

It does to those that are curious. Don't act like you not thinking it's worth it counts for everyone. Your not everyone.
You can favor a simpler explanation but you cant seem to let others ponder other options and your to lazy to actually back what you post yourself.

If your gonna be hypocritical and lazy don't partake or at the very least agree to disagree and drop it respectively.

This is literally just Nomura code for "I won't say for sure this happened, but I'll make a cutscene about it later". And then he made a cutscene about it later showing explicitly exactly what he suggested in this interview.

Because you know Nomura personally or how he works?

It only comes off that way because I'm confident in what I'm talking about and don't take the time to sugar coat things with pleasantries.

It's not anything like that. You quite and bluntly are trying to make yourself a word of law and trying to silence other possibilities simply because you don't agree with them. And since you don't act respectful of it it makes others fight you over it rather than consider it.

 

[KingdomKey]

Re: braig and xigbar might be two different persons?

Guys, guys, can't we all just get along?

That's enough. Nobody is going to be right except for Nomura himself. If you're going to argue about this without being pleasant, then I will close this thread and hand out "fractions" to those that can't keep their heads. It's fine to argue your own point of view on something, but if neither side is going to give, then it's time to stop and find something else to do instead of trying to one up each other over this theory. Let other people have a turn to speculate without derailing the thread.

 

[Zebedy]

Re: braig and xigbar might be two different persons?

Because you know Nomura personally or how he works?

Being a part of the fandom for twelve years, you definitely do pick up on his patterns.

If you can't be bothered to actually search for support of your own theory then you shouldn't be making them.

I wasn't of the mind that I was making a formal theory.

It leaves no reason to take you or anything you post seriously because you don't take what your posting seriously.

This is a Kingdom Hearts forum. Pardon me for having other things going on in my life to not have the time to pull various quotes, screens and lines from multiple sources for one quick post or two on a forum, especially when the OP themselves did little to bring forth evidence of their own aside from posing a general "what if" (shockingly, most posts reflect the tone/level of commitment of the original post. Had the OP given a detailed formal theory with evidence, perhaps one would be more likely to respond similarly. As is, the original theory was little more than a casual what if musing).

But in the interest of being earnest, fine.

Looking at the OP's original theory, they assume that Braig becomes Xigbar by the end of KH3D and that they are separate people. They then pose three alternate ideas for why this is, simply assuming as fact that Braig and Xigbar are separate people, and providing no real evidence to support this initial claim. That being said, for the time being let's not focus on that part and instead focus on their three possible explanations for why this would occur.

The three explanations they pose, in their own words are:

1)its possible that braig and xigbar are two different characters its like sora and roxas sora became heartless but he manage to return to being human so we don't know about braig story so it might be true maybe that's why we see him as xigbar again in KHDDD cause braig and xigbar not the same BTW both braig and xigbar know MX they both share same goal so i think no need for him to become nobody again

2) maybe we see him as xigbar cause it's sora dream and since sora never meet braig he only know xigbar maybe that's why he sees him as xigbar since he know xigbar and he never met braig

3)or maybe he just returned being nobody after the re:coded secret ending but who turn him into a nobody again was it MX again?

Let's address them.

Starting with number one. The OP suggests that Braig and Xigbar are two completely different characters not unlike Sora and Roxas and the relationship they share. They then make a slightly confusing statement that Braig and Xigbar exist at the same time, as humans, despite the fact that contradicts the lore and their own theory. It's kind of hard to parse exactly what they are suggesting here. They seem to suggest that Braig was a heartless but turned back into his human form like Sora did, which would leave Xigbar, his Nobody to keep existing, like Roxas did, but then also suggest that Xigbar was also made human. Either way, the statements leads to contradictions.

First off, then, we have the core issue being that Sora and Roxas existed at the same time because Roxas is a Special Nobody. Similarly, Kairi and Naminé existed at the same time because Naminé is a Special Nobody. (Additionally, while not stated explicitly in the text, the fact that Xehanort's Heartless and Xemnas existed at the same time is hinted by Nomura to similarly be due to Xemnas being a Special Nobody himself). So we come to the first problem -- by his own admission, Xigbar is not a Special Nobody, pointing out to Roxas that, when it comes to the Organization, he and Xion are the true Special Nobodies.

Xigbar: Bingo. You know somebody turns into a Heartless if the darkness gets their heart, right? Well, say this person's heart is strong--real strong. Sometimes, you wind up with a sort of byproduct: a Nobody. Take the strongest of those--the real cream of the crop--stick 'em in a room, and you've got us: the Organization.

Roxas: I didn't know everybody was such an elite...


Xigbar: Heh heh... Elite? As if. You and Xion are the real exceptional ones.

After this point, it is made clear in the game that Roxas and Xion are considered Special Nobodies, whereas the rest of the members of Organization XIII are not.

Roxas: Xigbar told me that Xion and me are "exceptional"---you know, like, special Nobodies.

Roxas: Saïx knows something about her. Why me and her are special Nobodies.

Roxas: Me and Xion are special, connected by "Sora."

Roxas: Xion and I are both special Nobodies.

You get the picture, but to drive it home--

Nomura: Essentially when a strong hearted person has their heart stolen, they change into a Heartless, and on rare occasions their body changes into a Nobody. But in the case for these 2, for Kairi's heart to be hidden within Sora, it took a special shape. Moreover, when Sora himself was changed into a heartless he was purified by Kairi. In order for Sora to be revived without following the essential course, the special way Roxas and Naminé were born from these types, special Nobodies ended up being left behind. Still, I get the feeling from the story so far that Xemnas might also be a special Nobody.

Simply put, Roxas, Naminé and Xemnas are Special Nobodies, which is how their original selves and their Nobody counterparts are able to exist at the same time, whereas all the other members of Organization XIII are not.

This means that in order for Braig to be recompleted he had to follow the process for all regular Nobodies, as outlined in Re:Coded as well as Another Report --

Mickey: Xehanort? But his two halves are gone. There was Ansem, who commanded the Heartless, and Xemnas, who commanded the Nobodies. Didn't Sora defeat them both?


Yen Sid: Correct, those two met their end. However, therein lies exactly our problem. Their destruction now guarantees the original Xehanort's reconstruction.


Mickey: Huh?


Yen Sid: Xehanort's heart, once seized by his Heartless half, is now free. And his body, which had become his Nobody, has been vanquished. Both halves will now be returned to the whole. In short...this means Master Xehanort will return.

Nomura: When Heartless are defeated, essentially the owner's hearts are rejoined with their once extinguished body, whichever world it may be on. As for the whereabouts of hearts in KHII that turn up, this time they remarkably went to the Organization (there is a foot note here that says "In Kingdom Hearts II after Heartless were defeated, the many hearts were absorbed by the Kingdom Hearts of "people's hearts"). However, in the rare case that the body changed into a Nobody, when there is no container for the heart it resorts to a state of suspension.


In the case of a Nobody being defeated, it's a little more complicated. If the above mentioned hearts are liberated, they return to their original form. However, if the heart is still stolen by the Heartless, the Nobody's body is swallowed by darkness. If somewhere in the world their hearts are taken back, perhaps they might be able to return to their original human form.

In essence, for normal Nobodies, the process to be recompleted is that their heart must be freed from their Heartless half, and their Nobody must be extinguished. Once theses conditions have been met, they will be recompleted back on the world they lost their heart on.

Of course, this natural process was deterred by the Organization's Kingdom Hearts. In that case, once their heart had been freed, instead of resorting into a state of suspension until their Nobody half was vanquished, it instead was held captive by Kingdom Hearts. When Sora then freed Kingdom Hearts and all its captive hearts at the end of KH2, these hearts were then allowed to return to their vanquished bodies, which is why all of the Apprentices are recompleted at the same relative time, as shown in KH3D.

This of course means that Xigbar, a normal Nobody, went through the process of recompletion like the other normal Nobody apprentices, and returned to the world. Therefore the theory that he is a Special Nobody and thus Braig and Xigbar exist at the same time due to this special Nobody status doesn't hold water. Xigbar was recompleted just like Axel was, and now instead of a Heartless half and a Nobody half, there is just one complete being.


Onto the second possible explanation given by the OP--

2) maybe we see him as xigbar cause it's sora dream and since sora never meet braig he only know xigbar maybe that's why he sees him as xigbar since he know xigbar and he never met braig

The first scene between Sora and Xigbar takes place in the real world, outside the Realm of Sleep and is no longer in Sora's Dream. Meaning that the entity Sora meets with is exactly as he is at that point in time, and his appearance is not due to any sort of dream logic. Young Xehanort and Xigbar then conspire to put Sora into a "second sleep" at which point the rest of Sora's Side is spent in a dream. Before that, however, no dream explanation would work for Xigbar's appearance.

Third explanation---

3)or maybe he just returned being nobody after the re:coded secret ending but who turn him into a nobody again was it MX again?

There is nothing to suggest that Braig was turned back into a Nobody, and the OP offers no evidence to support such a claim.

So, what is the truth?

Pretty much all of this stems from reusing Braig's model in the 2.5 ending and little else. So the question is, why did they do that? And who is Xigbar as seen in the end of KH3D?

I obviously believe that which is the most simple and logical answer, that which provides the least amount of contradiction and which fits most harmoniously with the text as it currently is, being that Braig and Xigbar are the same person -- namely, the recompleted Braig -- and that he is simply choosing to go by Xigbar.

For the recompleted Nobodies, their names are basically interchangeable at this point to refer to the completed self. We see this, of course, in Xigbar, who is referred to as both Xigbar and Braig in both the text, the credits, and in Nomura interviews interchangeably. We see it with Isa being referred to as Saix in the journals and the credits, but being referred to as Isa numerous times by Lea, most notably when he sees him in the ending. And we also see it with Lea, who has a running gag in KH3D as being called Axel by other characters to which he corrects them, only to later admit in the ending that "Axel's fine" (in fact, in the Japanese, Sora even refers to him as Axel in the very ending and Lea doesn't even bother correcting him). It is clear that the name alone is not enough to instantly suggest status as a Nobody or a complete being and Xigbar's continued use of his Nobody name speaks more to his allegiance with the Organization XIII than it suggests him being a Nobody.

One of the ongoing narrative subplots of KH3D is Lea's search for Braig, and more importantly, Isa. Having awakened in Radiant Garden as a complete person, the game then sets up a central mystery for the rest of the story -- Braig and Isa should have been recompleted as well, and should have been there with them when they woke up, so what happened to Braig and Isa?

(We know from both the interviews, and now 2.5, that this assumption was indeed correct -- Isa and Braig were indeed recompleted, and did wake up in Radiant Garden.)

— Xigbar and Saix appeared as members of Organisation XIII. Did they return as humans like Lea and the others?
Nomura: The conditions of becoming a human have been met, so you’d think they had returned, wouldn’t you? For them to have been with Xehanort and the others,perhaps they were collected after they had become humans and before Lea and the others woke up.

The game then proceeds to answer this question of what happened to them in the ending world, Braig (as Xigbar) is shown as a co-conspirator in Xehanort's plan, while Isa is with them as well. Thus, following basic rules of how narratives function, the question raised by the plot (Where are the recompleted Braig and Isa?) is answered by the end of the game.

We also of course have the additional facts of Nomura (as seen above) conflating Xigbar and Saix in the ending with their recompleted selves, and we also have Nomura referring to the character we see in KH3D as Braig (below) for added support.

—By the way, Braig’s dealings with Master Xehanort in Birth by Sleep make sense, he was to become a vessel.
Nomura: There is a certain reason for Braig to proudly exclaim, “As for me, I’m already half Xehanort.” Isa (Saix) is included too. I think you’ll understand the details about their circumstances eventually.

It is made pretty clear, all things considered, that Xigbar, as shown in KH3D, is indeed, his recompleted self.

So, naturally, of course, there is the question of why they used an unmodified Braig model in 2.5. There are of course two answers to this, and which one you lean on really depends on whether you can accept that extra-narrative explanation or are firmly routed in in-narrative explanations. I will start with a possible in-narrative explanation, one that seeks to mesh the existence of the Braig model with the Xigbar model with a story explanation. Do note though, that I do not personally follow this belief, so don't really bother fighting me on its specifics.

An in-universe explanation is of course that Braig returned to his exact old body, just as he left it when he first became a Nobody. Then, by the time we see him at the end of KH3D, Xehanort's heart has affected his appearance in such a way that he resembles himself as he did as a Nobody. We have seen numerous times in the series how the heart has an effect on appearance (the mere fact that Braig has gold eyes attests to this, as well as examples with Terranort, Vanitas, Roxas, and Xehanort's Heartless). The reason he is no longer wearing his RG garb is because the added protection the Organization coat gives him, as well as his allegiance to the Organization, better suits him. This explanation is suitable to those who don't really like admitting that the game makers are flawed, and thus look for an in-universe explanation for everything.

The other explanation is one that does not deal with in-game logic, but rather, the reality of this being a product developed by people. Simply put, we have the fact that all RG recompleted Nobodies are put into their old outfits, thus why the Braig outfit is preferable here. The reason why they wouldn't just use the Xigbar model for the 2.5 scene is due to the simple fact that we saw Braig lose his heart in his RG outfit, and thus, he wouldn't wake in an Organization coat. So instead they simply used the Braig model. Now, given Xigbar's appearance in the end of KH3D, it would make most sense, story-wise, for this Braig model to be a combination of Braig and Xigbar. An updated model of Braig with his long silver-streaked hair would make the most sense, but would also require making a new model for a scene that only lasts a couple minutes. Not seeing this as worth the manhours and expense, they simply used Braig as is. We can see a similar thing happen with Dilan. Xaldin of course had much longer (and more) dreads than his RG counterpart shown in BBS, but the model we see in KH3D and 2.5 is simply reusing his old BBS model. The developers did not deem it worth the extra work.

This isn't necessarily the same thing as being "lazy", but it does speak to prioritization on the parts of the developers. Weighing the cost of creating new models, the manhours it would take, over the end result. Since the general audience would simply understand that Braig = Xigbar, and Dilan = Xaldin and so forth, they likely did not deem it worth the expenses to create a new model for a single scene. This is just a reality of business and the fact that games like the handheld titles and 1.5 and 2.5 do not have the same budget and resources (and allotted development time) as a game like KH2 or KH3 would, so they have to decide what is worth it and what isn't. We can notice similar cost saving techniques throughout the series, but perhaps the most notable of which is in BBS, where numerous scenes (which total far longer a running time than the 2.5 ending) feature flashbacks to four years prior to the events of the game. Being four years younger, Terra, Ventus and Aqua should all have had vastly different models for these scenes, showcasing younger versions of themselves, but instead they simply reuse the same models present in the rest of the game. This is a cost saving technique. The developers decided that creating new models for these scenes was not worth the expense, similar can be said about creating a new Braig model for 2.5's ending. Again, it is not really an issue of laziness, but, for the most part, of expenditure.

Some similar cases:
-Not updating the appearances of the Corridors of Darkness for KH1 to the set look seen in KH2 and beyond. [1.5]
-Not updating Kairi's comatose model to the one seen in Re:Coded [1.5]
-Not designing a new Dark Margin setting for the Dark Realm side and instead reusing the one from the Between Realm side [BBS]
-Reusing Saix's Hooded Model for YMX in BBS instead of creating a new one [BBS]
-Reusing the same hooded model for all of the new Organization XIII despite them all being individual characters [KH3D]
-and more.

And there you have it, a counter "theory" if you can call it that, to the one posed by the OP. It is pretty clear that Braig in 2.5 and Xigbar in KH3D are the same character. The only remaining question is just which explanation you prefer for the inconsistencies in the model, as far as I'm concerned.

That lazy enough for you?

(And with that, I'm officially bowing out of this thread. Have fun~)

 

[Gram]

Re: braig and xigbar might be two different persons?

I wasn't of the mind that I was making a formal theory.

Whether making one or trying to discredit one you have to put something into it. You can't just think yourself the word of God and think it'll be dropped.

This is a Kingdom Hearts forum. Pardon me for having other things going on in my life to not have the time to pull various quotes, screens and lines from multiple sources for one quick post or two on a forum, especially when the OP themselves did little to bring forth evidence of their own aside from posing a general "what if" (shockingly, most posts reflect the tone/level of commitment of the original post. Had the OP given a detailed formal theory with evidence, perhaps one would be more likely to respond similarly. As is, the original theory was little more than a casual what if musing).

Oh come off it. Your obviously had the time to argue for two pages worth with nearly every member that posted yet you couldn't bring yourself to give credence to your statements? Just laziness pure and simple.

Don't whine about the lack of backing for ones theory when you yourself were to damn lazy to put true effort in your counter theories. It's hypocritical.

(Additionally, while not stated explicitly in the text, the fact that Xehanort's Heartless and Xemnas existed at the same time is hinted by Nomura to similarly be due to Xemnas being a Special Nobody himself).

To be fair here it's not so much as Xemnas is the special one but Ansem. Xemnas is special but not in the same sense as Roxas or Namine. Xemnas was born from three hearts yes but his counterpart was heartless unlike Roxas or Namine.

Ansem is the truly unique one of the pair cause he's a heartless that's retained sentience. Gaining a state of being that seems to be both just a heart and a heartless.

Pretty much all of this stems from reusing Braig's model in the 2.5 ending and little else. So the question is, why did they do that? And who is Xigbar as seen in the end of KH3D?

I obviously believe that which is the most simple and logical answer, that which provides the least amount of contradiction and which fits most harmoniously with the text as it currently is, being that Braig and Xigbar are the same person -- namely, the recompleted Braig -- and that he is simply choosing to go by Xigbar.

The game then proceeds to answer this question of what happened to them in the ending world, Braig (as Xigbar) is shown as a co-conspirator in Xehanort's plan, while Isa is with them as well. Thus, following basic rules of how narratives function, the question raised by the plot (Where are the recompleted Braig and Isa?) is answered by the end of the game.

We also of course have the additional facts of Nomura (as seen above) conflating Xigbar and Saix in the ending with their recompleted selves, and we also have Nomura referring to the character we see in KH3D as Braig (below) for added support.

It is made pretty clear, all things considered, that Xigbar, as shown in KH3D, is indeed, his recompleted self.

So, naturally, of course, there is the question of why they used an unmodified Braig model in 2.5. There are of course two answers to this, and which one you lean on really depends on whether you can accept that extra-narrative explanation or are firmly routed in in-narrative explanations. I will start with a possible in-narrative explanation, one that seeks to mesh the existence of the Braig model with the Xigbar model with a story explanation. Do note though, that I do not personally follow this belief, so don't really bother fighting me on its specifics.

An in-universe explanation is of course that Braig returned to his exact old body, just as he left it when he first became a Nobody. Then, by the time we see him at the end of KH3D, Xehanort's heart has affected his appearance in such a way that he resembles himself as he did as a Nobody. We have seen numerous times in the series how the heart has an effect on appearance (the mere fact that Braig has gold eyes attests to this, as well as examples with Terranort, Vanitas, Roxas, and Xehanort's Heartless). The reason he is no longer wearing his RG garb is because the added protection the Organization coat gives him, as well as his allegiance to the Organization, better suits him. This explanation is suitable to those who don't really like admitting that the game makers are flawed, and thus look for an in-universe explanation for everything.

The other explanation is one that does not deal with in-game logic, but rather, the reality of this being a product developed by people. Simply put, we have the fact that all RG recompleted Nobodies are put into their old outfits, thus why the Braig outfit is preferable here. The reason why they wouldn't just use the Xigbar model for the 2.5 scene is due to the simple fact that we saw Braig lose his heart in his RG outfit, and thus, he wouldn't wake in an Organization coat. So instead they simply used the Braig model. Now, given Xigbar's appearance in the end of KH3D, it would make most sense, story-wise, for this Braig model to be a combination of Braig and Xigbar. An updated model of Braig with his long silver-streaked hair would make the most sense, but would also require making a new model for a scene that only lasts a couple minutes. Not seeing this as worth the manhours and expense, they simply used Braig as is. We can see a similar thing happen with Dilan. Xaldin of course had much longer (and more) dreads than his RG counterpart shown in BBS, but the model we see in KH3D and 2.5 is simply reusing his old BBS model. The developers did not deem it worth the extra work.

This isn't necessarily the same thing as being "lazy", but it does speak to prioritization on the parts of the developers. Weighing the cost of creating new models, the manhours it would take, over the end result. Since the general audience would simply understand that Braig = Xigbar, and Dilan = Xaldin and so forth, they likely did not deem it worth the expenses to create a new model for a single scene. This is just a reality of business and the fact that games like the handheld titles and 1.5 and 2.5 do not have the same budget and resources (and allotted development time) as a game like KH2 or KH3 would, so they have to decide what is worth it and what isn't. We can notice similar cost saving techniques throughout the series, but perhaps the most notable of which is in BBS, where numerous scenes (which total far longer a running time than the 2.5 ending) feature flashbacks to four years prior to the events of the game. Being four years younger, Terra, Ventus and Aqua should all have had vastly different models for these scenes, showcasing younger versions of themselves, but instead they simply reuse the same models present in the rest of the game. This is a cost saving technique. The developers decided that creating new models for these scenes was not worth the expense, similar can be said about creating a new Braig model for 2.5's ending. Again, it is not really an issue of laziness, but, for the most part, of expenditure.

See THIS, this right here, is where you lose steam on your own theory. It's clear the OPs three proposals aren't spot on, this however was never the point, the point is that you are only arguing from these stand points.
Your example of models are hardly substantial. Yes there's cost to be taken into consideration however that's also the pitfall.

It's also empty in the sense that Nomra is never lazy on the points that matter. Braig and Xigbar are obviously important to his plans cause his role has grown greatly as time went on. He couldn't be lazy with them now.

Cutting cost to not make younger models of the exact same people in the exact state of being (TAV) and showing the two models of Braigs two states of being are different matters.
If they was gonna cut cost then you'd only see Braig or Xigbar but for whatever reason Nomura has they weren't.

Xigbar should be the more norted version cause his 10+ years of it. And like all the others that appeared in DDD the fragment of heart and memories he had as a nobody returned with him to his human self.
MEANING that Xigbar could've been the combined version your talking about. Not the younger Braig but the more aged and more norted Xigbar.

His outright age is never stated but he's obviously anywhere between his mid twenties (BBS) to early forties (DDD) at this point but those age ranges hardly are old enough for him to have the amount of grey Xigbar had in his hair which hints more to Xehanort's influence. Terra's hair too changed to silver then white.
His returning appearance should've been Xigbar like Lea's, Ienzo and Isa's was their nobody ages.

If they was gonna be lazy you'd have seen Xigbar. Or if they was really being lazy you'd have seen Braig in all his appearances since that's the model from the opening scene.

And no matter how much you repeat it you've yet to explain the inconsistency of your own point. If they was gonna be lazy but going for cost trimming you wouldn't have seen both models in DDD.
You'd have only seen one as it would've been the truly "lazy" and more cost friendly method to go about it and it's just that simple. You can't dance around it no matter how much you keep trying too.

Some similar cases:
-Not updating the appearances of the Corridors of Darkness for KH1 to the set look seen in KH2 and beyond. [1.5]
-Not updating Kairi's comatose model to the one seen in Re:Coded [1.5]
-Not designing a new Dark Margin setting for the Dark Realm side and instead reusing the one from the Between Realm side [BBS]
-Reusing Saix's Hooded Model for YMX in BBS instead of creating a new one [BBS]
-Reusing the same hooded model for all of the new Organization XIII despite them all being individual characters [KH3D]
-and more.

And there you have it, a counter "theory" if you can call it that, to the one posed by the OP. It is pretty clear that Braig in 2.5 and Xigbar in KH3D are the same character. The only remaining question is just which explanation you prefer for the inconsistencies in the model, as far as I'm concerned.

That lazy enough for you?

Sorry but those aren't exactly "cases". Updating a corridor means nothing, why would they? How the door looks doesn't matter.
Why would they update her model when KH1 is the age she was in during the scene shown.
Using the same model for unknown characters isn't laziness entirely. By making them all the same it makes it hard to tell who they are which is what Nomura wants and it saves his project cash.

All your "cases" for backing your proposal had reasoning behind them when it comes to character models.

Now see? Was that so hard? If you'd had been less lazy or even done at least half this and more respectful to start with you wouldn't have fought a thread full.

Your also forgetting other theories proposed in other threads. Such as time travel. For all we know Xigbar is from the past and Braig from the present recompleted. (which hopefully doesn't come to pass)
You keep claiming they're the same and honestly they could be but your model example is all you have to back it and it holds little water. It discredits the OP's ideas on the nobody/heartless but nothing you posted truly explains why Nomura used both models.

Your just clinging tightly to what you prefer then damning others for thinking otherwise.

(And with that, I'm officially bowing out of this thread.)

I highly doubt anyones lucky enough to not see you again.

 

[robvandam111]

Re: braig and xigbar might be two different persons?

I have a question. I was re-watching that ReCoded scene with Young Xehanort and Braig. Obviously, if one recompletes, is when both Heartless and Nobody are eliminated. How's Lea still down while Xigbar was still alive?

 

[Gram]

Re: braig and xigbar might be two different persons?

I have a question. I was re-watching that ReCoded scene with Young Xehanort and Braig. Obviously, if one recompletes, is when both Heartless and Nobody are eliminated. How's Lea still down while Xigbar was still alive?

That's the question Zebedy is halfheartedly thing to ignore. We don't know why Xigbar appears even though recomplete Braig does as well. It's one of those mysteries about DDD.

He could be from the past, he could be Braigs body being warped by Xehanort's influence, or it could be a less favorable theory I've seen that Xehanort is using replicas.
EDIT: It's also possibly another alternative that we can't theorize.

 

[robvandam111]

Re: braig and xigbar might be two different persons?

That's the question Zebedy is halfheartedly thing to ignore. We don't know why Xigbar appears even though recomplete Braig does as well. It's one of those mysteries about DDD.

He could be from the past, he could be Braigs body being warped by Xehanort's influence, or it could be a less favorable theory I've seen that Xehanort is using replicas.
EDIT: It's also possibly another alternative that we can't theorize.

Yeah, that's kind of freaky especially when Xigbar was defeated but he ends up returning in DDD as well. Can you imagine if Nomura now brings cloning to the mix lol?

 

[Gram]

Re: braig and xigbar might be two different persons?

After time travel cloning wouldn't surprise me. lol

 

[Some guy]

Re: braig and xigbar might be two different persons?

For all we know, Zebedy could be right (I'd personally prefer if there was only one Braig/Xigbar). That's the fun thing with theories: nobody's right, and nobody's wrong ... unless said otherwise by the past games or Nomura, or until KH3 comes. So, I don't see the point in "jumping at each other's throats" over this.

Xigbar should be the more norted version cause his 10+ years of it. And like all the others that appeared in DDD the fragment of heart and memories he had as a nobody returned with him to his human self.
MEANING that Xigbar could've been the combined version your talking about. Not the younger Braig but the more aged and more norted Xigbar.

His outright age is never stated but he's obviously anywhere between his mid twenties (BBS) to early forties (DDD) at this point but those age ranges hardly are old enough for him to have the amount of grey Xigbar had in his hair which hints more to Xehanort's influence. Terra's hair too changed to silver then white.
His returning appearance should've been Xigbar like Lea's, Ienzo and Isa's was their nobody ages.

If they was gonna be lazy you'd have seen Xigbar. Or if they was really being lazy you'd have seen Braig in all his appearances since that's the model from the opening scene.

And no matter how much you repeat it you've yet to explain the inconsistency of your own point. If they was gonna be lazy but going for cost trimming you wouldn't have seen both models in DDD.
You'd have only seen one as it would've been the truly "lazy" and more cost friendly method to go about it and it's just that simple. You can't dance around it no matter how much you keep trying too.

That's exactly the point he's trying to make, if they would settle for only one (Braig or Xigbar), they would have to give Braig an organization coat (for DDD) or give Xigbar his RG outfit (for when he awakens). Either choice would mean creating new models in the end, so the easy way out is actually keeping both already existing models.

Your just clinging tightly to what you prefer then damning others for thinking otherwise.

So are you.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

Re: braig and xigbar might be two different persons?

The Xigbar in DDD is actually an alien with amnesia.

My guess is Young Xehanort brought Xigbar from the past to lend a hand, so Braig has time to do...whatever it is that he's doing. With Xigbar supposedly gone back to his own time, Braig replaces himself with himself, so now there's only one Braig in the Org. (Hopefully.)

While I got nothing on how this'd work, one thought that unfortunately came to mind is though Braig recompleted, his Nobody self fell to the Realm of Sleep...somehow.

 

[Gram]

Re: braig and xigbar might be two different persons?

For all we know, Zebedy could be right (I'd personally prefer if there was only one Braig/Xigbar). That's the fun thing with theories: nobody's right, and nobody's wrong ... unless said otherwise by the past games or Nomura, or until KH3 comes. So, I don't see the point in "jumping at each other's throats" over this.

I'm not saying he's wrong, no one being right or wrong or knowing is something I've even stated earlier. It's that point I was making though. The argument wasn't that they aren't the same just that his theories on why it would be is no more solid than those he's been fervently arguing with for two pages.

There honestly is no point but when someone remarks I can't help but remark back. It's one of my flaws.

That's exactly the point he's trying to make, if they would settle for only one (Braig or Xigbar), they would have to give Braig an organization coat (for DDD) or give Xigbar his RG outfit (for when he awakens). Either choice would mean creating new models in the end, so the easy way out is actually keeping both already existing models.

Your missing the point I'm making. If they was being lazy with the models as he's saying you'd see one or the other not both. For them to be lazy over it would mean them using an existing model for both occasions.

So are you.

I'm not, your twisting my post. I never said he was wrong that they are the same, it's the evidence he's posing for it we're disagreeing on. The fact that Xehanort alters his host is enough reason to think they could be the same so I have no reason or means to discount that part.

If you notice I've not once posted a theory of my own only listed several possible reasons nor am I damning anyone else that's posted prior to mine and Zebedy's argument.
For me to do the same I'd have to be arguing my own theory against his.