Black Coat Riku in KH3D

[blueheart]

Uh, it's not Axel coming back. Axel faded into darkness...it's Lea coming back actually. And he's not in the RoS but in the RoL where Mickey, Maleficent and co. are.

It's pretty much the same person.

My point was that him coming back is pretty meaningless and for fanservice. If he gets to come back, why not Repliku?

 

[Sephiroth0812]

It's pretty much the same person.

My point was that him coming back is pretty meaningless and for fanservice. If he gets to come back, why not Repliku?

That depends solely on viewpoint and interpretation though.
We also don't say "Xemnas" comes back or "Xigbar" comes back, but Xehanort and Braig.

Oh really?
Only that isn't nearly the point as Lea being there is not as meaningless since he has close connections to Sora, Isa, Ventus and Roxas and apparently a bigger role to play as seen.
Fanservice may be one part of it, but in the overall picture of the story, especially since he was 1) shown in Blank Points and Coded, 2) talked about by Nomura his importance, while surely not on the level of a main character like Sora, Riku, Xehanort or Ventus, is clearly higher than that of the Riku Replica.

 

[Key of Valor]

Oh, Data Riku does know...because he IS the Journal. Everything that happened in Coded is inside Data Riku because he is the manifestation of the whole Journal.
He has all that data/information inside him.

That's why the Data Riku would be the most suitable messenger, he has the complete information from all perspectives inside him.

Data Riku contains all the information but he isn't necessarily consciously aware of all that information. Data Riku might not know any of the information so he might need to be told about the information by someone else. Data Roxas or Data Namine could just as easily deliver that information to Riku.

That is of course another possible way to do it...but also a pretty round-abound way for Mickey to first tell Yen Sid and then HE tells it to Sora and Riku.

Yensid just has a special way of explaining, unlike Mickey Mouse who has been nothing purposely vague in any explanation he has ever given.

Yeah, fact is his essence still exists in some way. However, that he comes back completely in the physical world isn't a give yet. I think the only four people we can be absolutely sure about that will come back as a full physical existence in the Realm of Light are Aqua, Ansem the Wise, Terra and Ventus.
The others, especially the incompletes, may get a chance if there is a way constructed for them to allow it but it's not a sure-fire thing yet.

Well I'm not necessarily saying that Eraqus will completely return (though I suspect that will happen). I feel very strongly though that he will at the very least have a more positive fate which means the story will need to readdress what became of Eraqus.

That Nomura has a sort of long-term overall plan since he finished KH2 has already been stated several times, so I think it's safely to assume that.
Although "undoing" the damage of BBS itself is hardly possible except by reversing time. The consequences of most of it can be remedied and the BBS-Trio given relief, yes, but i.e. Terra being possessed and having to fight for over 10 years or Ventus having his heart shattered twice can't really be "undone".
The impact and memories of the damage done to them will always remain.
Much "damage" done in the series can be indeed lead to a higher purpose that in the end shows us the initial damage was necessary to get to an overall better solution.

Well yeah, each BBS protagonist endured their own version of horrible suffering for about a decade, so obviously I know that can't be erased (well in the KH series it theoretically can... but I don't think it will). I think the protagonists deserve everything to be put back how it was (except for maybe Terra).

Yes, and one obvious reason apparently was in order to help Terra resisting Master Xehanort for longer. Eraqus's heart may even have been a factor in Terra-Xehanort failing to expel Terra's heart at the end of the Final Episode in BBS.

That could have just as easily been explained by Terra's heart gaining the strength to resist Master Xehanort on his own. Nomura could have created any excuse he wanted in order to give Terra the strength to resist Master Xehanort on his own. Nomura didn't need to keep Eraqus' heart around just for that basic function.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Data Riku contains all the information but he isn't necessarily consciously aware of all that information. Data Riku might not know any of the information so he might need to be told about the information by someone else. Data Roxas or Data Namine could just as easily deliver that information to Riku.

During Coded he was much aware of the normal data of the journal though and after the riddle was solved the additional torment data was added as well due to Data Sora.
Data Naminé can't deliver anything because she's gone, she was made just for the purpose to convey the data on the tormented and then faded away.
Data Roxas is also not an option because 1) he didn't know of the crucial information the Data Naminé had, he only knew about his own pain and choose on his own accord to test Sora, that had nothing to do with the torment data or Data-Naminé and 2) he merged with Data-Sora in the end.

Yensid just has a special way of explaining, unlike Mickey Mouse who has been nothing purposely vague in any explanation he has ever given.

True that, Mickey apparently isn't the brightest explainer around, but why would Yen Sid now bother them with information about their second task after the Mark of Mastery?
From the Data-Naminé Mickey also knows that Ansem the Wise hid something inside Sora's heart and DDD's main purpose is to find out about that data and investigate it...another hook-point to put Data-Riku into the story since he's a data-expert.

Well I'm not necessarily saying that Eraqus will completely return (though I suspect that will happen). I feel very strongly though that he will at the very least have a more positive fate which means the story will need to readdress what became of Eraqus.

Geez, I'm only cautious with these "completely return" topics since these tend to spark intense debates every now an then, but I can live with either way.
*shrugs* Who knows, maybe he'll play a role in finally removing Xehanort's heart for good, aiding his final demise in KH III which will also prevent his full return. I'm relatively open on what purpose he's given as long as it goes beyond mere fanservice-cameo.

Well yeah, each BBS protagonist endured their own version of horrible suffering for about a decade, so obviously I know that can't be erased (well in the KH series it theoretically can... but I don't think it will). I think the protagonists deserve everything to be put back how it was (except for maybe Terra).

They can get a second chance and their pain be stopped, yep, but not undone except if Nomura really introduces timeline-altering time travel.
That's what I think as well. However, what's with Terra? It's not like he wanted all this and he also fought on against MX at least mentally for all that time, not to mention the BBS-Trio is so closely knit that if only Aqua and Ven receive their comeback they would be probably heartbroken if Terra doesn't.

That could have just as easily been explained by Terra's heart gaining the strength to resist Master Xehanort on his own. Nomura could have created any excuse he wanted in order to give Terra the strength to resist Master Xehanort on his own. Nomura didn't need to keep Eraqus' heart around just for that basic function.

Well, when asked about the additional heart with Terra I remember Nomura saying something about we put in a bunch of foreshadowing.
Foreshadowing for what, well, take your preferred pick, lol.

 

[Chaser]

If Data Riku knew what Data Namine was going to say, then Data Riku would have just told Mickey about the information instead of sending Data Sora to find it. I suppose it's possible that Data Riku could somehow let Riku enter the journal world and go looking for the information himself.

However, the data versions of Namine and Castle Oblivion were locked away so Data Riku wouldn't have known about it until it was unlocked when the bugs vanished. Because the bugs interfered and the information was locked away, Data Riku didn't know about it until the message was unlocked.

With Data Namine gone, she can't say it. We don't know the state of Data-Sora but he could come back. Mickey was useless as ever. And Riku knows. Besides, if he didn't Data Sora would have just told him.


Nomura said there was a plot purpose that both Sora and Riku were looking young again. There's a reason why they got new clothes. What if the plot purpose and reason is because the data versions of them are appearing in game, and it would be easier to tell whose who. It links into place. If it was just Repliku coming back, they wouldn't really need the change.
And before you say "the plot purpose is to re-teach the ways of the keyblade" sure, that's a reason. But Yen Sid could have done that without making them younger. He is a powerful wizard after all.

 

[Key of Valor]

From the Data-Naminé Mickey also knows that Ansem the Wise hid something inside Sora's heart and DDD's main purpose is to find out about that data and investigate it...another hook-point to put Data-Riku into the story since he's a data-expert.

I think exploring the data inside Sora's heart would be better suited for a version of Namine or another character connected to Sora's heart. Data Riku's expertise on data seems limited to the journal.

I guess my biggest concern about bringing back Data Riku is how his role will probably be redundant and thus make Re:coded even more unnecessary. Mickey could have just as easily wrote a letter that said Sora and Riku need to take their Mark of Mastery exams to prepare of Xehanort's possible return. Nomura could have just as easily created some kind of contrived excuse to allow Namine to appear in KH:3D so she could explain to Sora and Riku how people connected to Sora are suffering. Mickey being told about those in torment is the main if not the only meaningful thing that happened in Re:coded, so what would have been the point of that game if Sora and Riku were just going to find out about that information from someone else in the next game?

They can get a second chance and their pain be stopped, yep, but not undone except if Nomura really introduces timeline-altering time travel.

Or they could just get the memories of their suffering erased, and then it's like it never happened (which I don't think will happen even though it's theoretically possible in the KH series).

That's what I think as well. However, what's with Terra? It's not like he wanted all this and he also fought on against MX at least mentally for all that time, not to mention the BBS-Trio is so closely knit that if only Aqua and Ven receive their comeback they would be probably heartbroken if Terra doesn't.

I like Terra, but I think he might become the victim of a phenomenon known has the "heroic sacrifice" where his wellbeing becomes the necessary price to stop the forces of evil. It's just the impression his character gives me. BBS went out of its way to make everything seem like Terra's fault (even though it totally wasn't) and then the ending tries to excuse Terra from everything Xehanort incarnations did thereafter (even though I think Terra is sorta responsible for a lot of the problems in the other installments). Then again, it might be one of those things where Terra sacrifices himself and comes back five minutes later like Sora did in KH1... or the outcome of Terra's possible self-sacrificing act of heroism may be more permanent. This is all pure speculation anyways.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I think exploring the data inside Sora's heart would be better suited for a version of Namine or another character connected to Sora's heart. Data Riku's expertise on data seems limited to the journal.

The exploring should be actually done by those who need to understand and later apply the content learned by the data. Meaning the real Sora and Riku as Ansem's data is said to be the key to save all the ones who called out to Sora in the end.
As for making them aware of the data and guiding them...that could of course be done by Data Riku.

I guess my biggest concern about bringing back Data Riku is how his role will probably be redundant and thus make Re:coded even more unnecessary. Mickey could have just as easily wrote a letter that said Sora and Riku need to take their Mark of Mastery exams to prepare of Xehanort's possible return. Nomura could have just as easily created some kind of contrived excuse to allow Namine to appear in KH:3D so she could explain to Sora and Riku how people connected to Sora are suffering. Mickey being told about those in torment is the main if not the only meaningful thing that happened in Re:coded, so what would have been the point of that game if Sora and Riku were just going to find out about that information from someone else in the next game?

Like said, maybe we're all also making too much fuss about it and that 2nd Riku is neither Data Riku or the Replica.

As for Coded's point, well, another point of Coded was for the cast to learn that Ansem the Wise did hide something in Sora while he slept, setting the stage for one of the main points in DDD.

Also, there has been hinting towards another story-theme:

Spoiler Show

Data Sora can newly obtain a legitimate Keyblade during his adventure, but are there changes to the real Keyblade when that happens?

Nomura: No, it’s a data version the entire time. However like with the first Keyblade, it wasn’t created by someone else. It comes from the heart’s connections with the data, hinting towards the story theme, “Can a heart be born in an existence made of data?”

It's only a small piece but may also shed a new light on why we had a "Data"-Sora and not the real one.
Some dialogue parts in Coded itself even hint at it:

Pete: Peh, he's nothing but data. He doesn't even have a heart! Goofy: That's not true! Sora has a heart. It even reached us. Pete: ...What?

Later on it's again Mickey being vague when D-Sora gets his new keyblade, but still:

Mickey: I don't know all the details, but... I think something has awakened inside of you. The keyblade is tightly connected to the Power of the Heart. Yet, an old friend told me that the Heart can't be turned into Data. Still, as you came up all this way, we developed a Bond. It might have created something new, something that goes beyond data. I'm sure it's a unique new power that you obtained through the bonds with your friends across the worlds.

Or they could just get the memories of their suffering erased, and then it's like it never happened (which I don't think will happen even though it's theoretically possible in the KH series).

Memories can be made inaccessible but never truly erased though.
Still, such an option could be taken if the suffering was so traumatizing one of them could not really live his/her new life while still having those memories.

I like Terra, but I think he might become the victim of a phenomenon known has the "heroic sacrifice" where his wellbeing becomes the necessary price to stop the forces of evil. It's just the impression his character gives me. BBS went out of its way to make everything seem like Terra's fault (even though it totally wasn't) and then the ending tries to excuse Terra from everything Xehanort incarnations did thereafter (even though I think Terra is sorta responsible for a lot of the problems in the other installments). Then again, it might be one of those things where Terra sacrifices himself and comes back five minutes later like Sora did in KH1... or the outcome of Terra's possible self-sacrificing act of heroism may be more permanent. This is all pure speculation anyways.

I was rather reserving Eraqus that fate, lol.
If Terra is responsible for something bad that happened during the time KH1 to end of KH2 can only be brought to our knowledge if we learn if Terra could assert any of his own influence somehow either as Apprentice Xehanort, Ansem SoD (something of Terra must be in there or Riku couldn't have a part of Terra now) or Xemnas.
Still, speaking of five minute sacrifice I find it somewhat odd that while sacrifices of other characters are suddenly declared as meaningless if revoked while Sora himself made practically the shortest sacrifice ever which got remedied by a simple hug.

 

[Grey]

Also, there has been hinting towards another story-theme:

Spoiler Show

Data Sora can newly obtain a legitimate Keyblade during his adventure, but are there changes to the real Keyblade when that happens?

Nomura: No, it’s a data version the entire time. However like with the first Keyblade, it wasn’t created by someone else. It comes from the heart’s connections with the data, hinting towards the story theme, “Can a heart be born in an existence made of data?”

Actually, this makes me think that this Black Coat Riku could easily be Data Riku.

Nomura stated a number of times (one of those times is in the above spoilered interview) that Re:Coded makes the player question if a heart can be born out of data. The number of times he brings this up practically gives away the answer--that it is indeed possible for a heart to form where there is simply data.

Given something else Nomura said:

Spoiler Show

In the final chapter of Hollow Bastion, it happens in the story that if the Jiminy Journal is completely debugged, then the existence recorded in the data will be erased. Then why is it even if Data Sora doesn’t remember, Data Riku’s memories remain?

Nomura: Data Sora became an existence whose purpose was to go about debugging, so at the point in time when he had completely debugged the data his memories were gone. In Data Riku’s case, it existed in the main data even without the Jiminy Journal itself being erased, and since its purpose was to solve the mystery first written in the journal, it couldn’t fulfill it until the debugging was complete. Once the mystery was solved, it too would lose its memories.

Nomura implies that both Data Sora and Data Riku have both "disappeared," having fulfilled their purposes (assuming that Mickey understands the mystery first written in the journal at this point). So, where would the hearts go?

Why, they'd go to the Realm of Sleep, of course!

 

[Chaser]

Actually, this makes me think that this Black Coat Riku could easily be Data Riku.

Nomura stated a number of times (one of those times is in the above spoilered interview) that Re:Coded makes the player question if a heart can be born out of data. The number of times he brings this up practically gives away the answer--that it is indeed possible for a heart to form where there is simply data.

Given something else Nomura said:

Spoiler Show

In the final chapter of Hollow Bastion, it happens in the story that if the Jiminy Journal is completely debugged, then the existence recorded in the data will be erased. Then why is it even if Data Sora doesn’t remember, Data Riku’s memories remain?

Nomura: Data Sora became an existence whose purpose was to go about debugging, so at the point in time when he had completely debugged the data his memories were gone. In Data Riku’s case, it existed in the main data even without the Jiminy Journal itself being erased, and since its purpose was to solve the mystery first written in the journal, it couldn’t fulfill it until the debugging was complete. Once the mystery was solved, it too would lose its memories.

Nomura implies that both Data Sora and Data Riku have both "disappeared," having fulfilled their purposes (assuming that Mickey understands the mystery first written in the journal at this point). So, where would the hearts go?

Why, they'd go to the Realm of Sleep, of course!

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

Actually, this makes me think that this Black Coat Riku could easily be Data Riku.

Nomura stated a number of times (one of those times is in the above spoilered interview) that Re:Coded makes the player question if a heart can be born out of data. The number of times he brings this up practically gives away the answer--that it is indeed possible for a heart to form where there is simply data.

Given something else Nomura said:

Spoiler Show

In the final chapter of Hollow Bastion, it happens in the story that if the Jiminy Journal is completely debugged, then the existence recorded in the data will be erased. Then why is it even if Data Sora doesn’t remember, Data Riku’s memories remain?

Nomura: Data Sora became an existence whose purpose was to go about debugging, so at the point in time when he had completely debugged the data his memories were gone. In Data Riku’s case, it existed in the main data even without the Jiminy Journal itself being erased, and since its purpose was to solve the mystery first written in the journal, it couldn’t fulfill it until the debugging was complete. Once the mystery was solved, it too would lose its memories.

Nomura implies that both Data Sora and Data Riku have both "disappeared," having fulfilled their purposes (assuming that Mickey understands the mystery first written in the journal at this point). So, where would the hearts go?

Why, they'd go to the Realm of Sleep, of course!

*kisses you*

 

[Key of Valor]

Given something else Nomura said:

Spoiler Show

In the final chapter of Hollow Bastion, it happens in the story that if the Jiminy Journal is completely debugged, then the existence recorded in the data will be erased. Then why is it even if Data Sora doesn’t remember, Data Riku’s memories remain?

Nomura: Data Sora became an existence whose purpose was to go about debugging, so at the point in time when he had completely debugged the data his memories were gone. In Data Riku’s case, it existed in the main data even without the Jiminy Journal itself being erased, and since its purpose was to solve the mystery first written in the journal, it couldn’t fulfill it until the debugging was complete. Once the mystery was solved, it too would lose its memories.

That quote from the interview sorta works against the argument that Data Riku could contribute anything to the plot of KH:3D. Nomura said Data Riku had its memories erased after the mystery of the journal was solved, so Data Riku probably can't deliver any information to Riku because he doesn't even remember any information.

Nomura didn't say that Data Sora and Data Riku necessarily disappeared. He only said that they lost their memories.

 

[rac7d]

Actually, this makes me think that this Black Coat Riku could easily be Data Riku.

Nomura stated a number of times (one of those times is in the above spoilered interview) that Re:Coded makes the player question if a heart can be born out of data. The number of times he brings this up practically gives away the answer--that it is indeed possible for a heart to form where there is simply data.

Given something else Nomura said:

Spoiler Show

In the final chapter of Hollow Bastion, it happens in the story that if the Jiminy Journal is completely debugged, then the existence recorded in the data will be erased. Then why is it even if Data Sora doesn’t remember, Data Riku’s memories remain?

Nomura: Data Sora became an existence whose purpose was to go about debugging, so at the point in time when he had completely debugged the data his memories were gone. In Data Riku’s case, it existed in the main data even without the Jiminy Journal itself being erased, and since its purpose was to solve the mystery first written in the journal, it couldn’t fulfill it until the debugging was complete. Once the mystery was solved, it too would lose its memories.

Nomura implies that both Data Sora and Data Riku have both "disappeared," having fulfilled their purposes (assuming that Mickey understands the mystery first written in the journal at this point). So, where would the hearts go?

Why, they'd go to the Realm of Sleep, of course!

So that would mean data sora is there as well? If they are both in the realm of sleep why dont they free the worlds asleep.
Is data namine also in the realm of sleep, data roxas.... when does all the cloning end?

 

[prjio307]

So that would mean data sora is there as well? If they are both in the realm of sleep why dont they free the worlds asleep.
Is data namine also in the realm of sleep, data roxas.... when does all the cloning end?

Right? The cloning is starting to get a little annoying honestly. There's at least 3 Riku's floating around out there somewhere, at least 4 Sora's (counting Xion as a Sora clone).

Am I the only one who would have been perfectly fine if the characters in RE:Coded were original, never-before-seen data characters rather than data-riku, data-namine, data-sora, etc? It would have been kinda cool to play as some mysterious data-entity coming to terms with the fact that he isn't a real person, etc. Would have been cool to see that play out.

 

[JustSnilloc]

Right? The cloning is starting to get a little annoying honestly. There's at least 3 Riku's floating around out there somewhere, at least 4 Sora's (counting Xion as a Sora clone).

Am I the only one who would have been perfectly fine if the characters in RE:Coded were original, never-before-seen data characters rather than data-riku, data-namine, data-sora, etc? It would have been kinda cool to play as some mysterious data-entity coming to terms with the fact that he isn't a real person, etc. Would have been cool to see that play out.

But then, you'd have whiners complaining about how Sora's not in the game

 

[prjio307]

Not if the characters are interesting enough. Just look at birth by Sleep.

 

[Key of Valor]

The concept of "sleep" seems to have something to do with emptiness, and here is something the Riku Replica said about himself before his fight with Riku:

Riku Replica: I thought by finding some new strength I could be someone, someone who's not you! But nothing changes... I'm still just empty!

If the Riku Replica's heart was struggling with emptiness, then I think he could fall into slumber between light and darkness the same way Riku almost did in the beginning of Reverse/Rebirth.

 

[Chaser]

The concept of "sleep" seems to have something to do with emptiness,

Where'd you get that from?

 

[Key of Valor]

Where'd you get that from?

DiZ talked about "sleep" in Reverse/Rebirth

Riku: Urgh...Where...where am I...

DiZ: Sleep.

Riku: Who's there?!

DiZ: Sleep. Here, between light and dark.

Riku: Between...what? The king! Where's the king?! Together we closed the door to darkness, and after that... Grr, why can't I remember?

DiZ: Your king is far away. Sleep, and leave the war with darkness in his hands. The thorny light of awakening will bring only anguish to one in your state. Turn from the light. Shut your eyes.

DiZ: First your home, then the dark. Your heart only knows how to throw things away. It's empty, like that room. Like your memories. That's why no one is in the castle with you. Your heart is hollow except for the darkness you couldn't quite shake off.

 

[Chaser]

That doesn't seem to connect. The first bolded part, yeah he's talking about Sleep, but then the second time he's talking about Riku's heart.

 

[Key of Valor]

That doesn't seem to connect. The first bolded part, yeah he's talking about Sleep, but then the second time he's talking about Riku's heart.

DiZ indicated though that Riku was in "sleep" because of the state of Riku's heart, so the two could easily be connected. Riku did awake in an "empty" void when DiZ was discussing "sleep".