BBS Power Scaled Relative to KHI and KHII



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Veritas7340

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How powerful are Terra, Aqua, Ventus, Vanitas, MX, and Terranort compared to Ansem SoD, Xemnas, Sora, and Riku?
 

Sephiroth0812

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That's a question that cannot be answered with a general statement since power levels of characters vary even within a single game.

For example, Ven in the first half of BBS was not able to defeat Vanitas alone in normal form and needed assistance from Mickey, but Ven of the second half of BBS was able to defeat Vanitas twice in a row alone and at the second time Vanitas even wielded the proto-X-blade.
Not counting that though, Ventus was able to defeat Maleficent in normal form and Captain Hook alone.
In KH 1, Sora defeated those two bosses with assistance from Donald, Goofy, Beast and Peter Pan.

Aqua faced and defeated Hades and the Ice Colossus together in a single fight and won, faced Vanitas three times (the last time even with the proto-X-blade and possessing Ven, enhancing his power) and defeated him each time and not to mention she faced Terra-Xehanort as well and bested him.

Terra mostly faced big Unversed throughout his journey, but they were also no slackers, he did face Zack Fair with Omnislash equipped and bested him as well as fighting Vanitas and MX at the same time once.

One thing to definitely keep in mind is though that the BBS Trio fought most of their battles alone and came out victorious, while especially Sora almost always had a complete party with him.
As for Riku, during KH 1 and 2 he did not have many real battles for himself to fight, and the ones he had in KH 1 were mostly cheated by calling on the power of Darkness or using Ansem's powers. For Riku a better comparison is Re: CoM, as there he really fought mostly on his own and except maybe Lexaeus, he won nearly every boss battle.

However, if one really wants to generalize with an all in all statement, I'd say that when counting only KH 1 and 2, the BBS cast is meant to be shown off as being stronger than anything shown in those two games before except maybe Xemnas powered with his artificial KH.
Now, if we count DDD into the mix however, I'd say Sora and Riku reached the same level as TAV, if not even surpassed them.
 

Blackdrazon

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I don't know if you can compare all of those bosses straight-up: Maleficent definitely got stronger through her careful use of Darkness over ten years, which mucks up comparing the fights between her and Sora and her and Ven, and her Dragon Form in KH1 was powered by raw exposure to Darkness, so Data Sora and Aqua's fights with her probably can't be compared either. The Ice Colossus also isn't the Ice Titan, BBS goes out of its way to say that, and even Hades probably isn't comparable between BBS and KH1 (I'm replaying KH1 right now and at one point, when Maleficent cautions Riku about abusing the Darkness, Hades mistakes her lecture as being directed at him. Actually, maybe it was directed at him, but either way, methinks the God of the Underworld doth protest too much. Methinks the God of the Underworld has been going for Darkness baths in between evil schemes).

Captain Hook, though, that's a pretty fair comparison. People from Neverland never change, that's the idea. So Ven at the tail end of BBS is definitely stronger than Sora at the tail end of KH1. He couldn't even fly! (Though it is worth noting that Hook had Heartless backup in KH1. He also couldn't be hurt by the croc but I always thought that was just weird.)

I agree that Sora and Riku probably only caught up to TAV during DDD. Not only does Yen Sid imply as much in the opening, but this is the game where they begin to pick up some of TAV's own attacks, Riku even gaining his own version of Command Styles. And Riku fights a not-exactly-cogent-but-enhanced-by-Darkness foe that was essentially Ven (even if it was just Sora), and that's considered Final Boss worthy, so I'd say that's a good implication that they're supposed to be equals at that point.

But that's Riku. For Sora, it's worth reiterating what DDD went out of its way to remind us: Sora isn't that powerful. He's way more powerful than he was (just think "Jafar" and you'll understand, but also "Ursula," and "Hades") but his primary source of power is his connections. That's real, objective power in the KH universe. He's done most of his fighting in groups, but dammit, that's where the little guy is supposed to be! So in a one-on-one, no items, Final Destination battle to the death, Sora's only going to scratch in ahead of most of the others. Even Roxas, who was just tapping Sora, had more raw training prior to DDD. But alongside his friends, Sora gets to save the world.
 
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How powerful are Terra, Aqua, Ventus, Vanitas, MX, and Terranort compared to Ansem SoD, Xemnas, Sora, and Riku?
Well, what do you think?

As has been stated by Sephiroth, this is not a question that possesses an absolute, definitive answer. That's partly because of the reasons stated above, and also because being "powerful" isn't defined by physical strength alone. There are a lot of things to consider: battle acumen, survival, stamina and endurance, magic prowess, strength of heart, and that's just naming a few.

For example, Terra might be the physically strongest among his group, but he's obviously matched with Aqua who was not as physically strong but was more well-versed in magic. Similarly, Ventus might not be as strong, offence-wise, as the two of them, but he had his speed and agility to make up for it. All this also applies when comparing them to, say, Sora and Riku, and that's not even considering the growth and development they had gone through during the course of their adventure.

So you see, it's tricky. If you want to compare, perhaps it would be easier if you specified the "versions" of the characters; for example, pre-RG Ventus with CoM Sora, or the likes.
 

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There are several problems that come into play when you try to power-scale this series. 1: as has been said, the level of power is inconsistent to a degree. This is to be expected when you have variables like "strength of heart."

2: the gameplay tells you very little of actual importance. You see Sora struggling with a dozen foes on one occasion, but other timestake on 1000 at once on occasion. Demyx is portrayed as one of the weakest members of the organization, but is somehow one of the hardest bosses in the game. Oogie Boogie does more damage with a conveyor belt than with giant heartless. You can use several abilities that the characters don't seem to have in cutscenes. And on top of all that, the games keep finding excuses to bring Sora back to level 1, so you have to extrapolate his strength all over again (it honestly seems to be one of many cases of gameplay-story segregation, since the excuses they come up with for most of the power-downs are ridiculous).

Keeping all this in mind, the only way you can really gauge someone's strength is by examining the cutscenes: the story. But there are still several problems with doing that. Since people don't tend to accumulate wounds in this series, the only way to gauge if a combat was taxing on the victor is if their breathing is labored or something like that. Otherwise, since you can't rely on the gameplay at all to judge, what's to say you didn't beat most of the organization members with little to no effort? And you still get very weird outlier cases, like when Sora gets beaten by a handful of dusks.

3: It's often unclear how much stronger characters get over the course of their journey, and by what means. Ventus experiences tremendous growth, for example, but it's difficult to tell how much, if at all, Sora's strength grew from the moment he got the keyblade to any give future point.

And this is just off the top of my head.
 

Veritas7340

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Well, what do you think?

If you want to compare, perhaps it would be easier if you specified the "versions" of the characters; for example, pre-RG Ventus with CoM Sora, or the likes.
The iterations of the characters that I had in mind were all of them at their most powerful in BBS and KHII.

Personally, I think that TAV were all more powerful than anything encountered in KHI and KHII up until, maybe, the final Xemnas fight. Therein, Xemnas absorbed the power of the artificial Kingdom Hearts and consequentially went from being defeated by Sora 1-on-1 to almost destroying both Sora and Riku at the same time.

Terra (rather, his Lingering Will) and Aqua were both able to best Terranort who should be roughly comparable with both Ansem SoD and Xemnas.

So, overall, I agree with Sephiorth's analysis that TAV are either at or below DDD Sora and Riku
 

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Can I pose a counter-question that's relevant to the topic at hand?

Why do these topics always pop up with such frequency? I get that part of the plot stems from "power" but kingdom hearts isn't a pissing contest. Why is it such an interest to so many people who is more "powerful" than who?
 

Veritas7340

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Well, for me at least, I am also on Dragon Ball Z Forum and that's pretty much all we do over there xD

Beyond that, since it's a prequel and generally in video-games the characters become more powerful, people just want to see if TAV could take on characters from later games in a fight.

I don't want to see who's more powerful -- physical strength alone means little. I just want to know if they're roughly comparable overall in terms of skill, speed, magic, strength, etc.
 

Rolands

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Can I pose a counter-question that's relevant to the topic at hand?

Why do these topics always pop up with such frequency? I get that part of the plot stems from "power" but kingdom hearts isn't a pissing contest. Why is it such an interest to so many people who is more "powerful" than who?
I don't take it nearly to the level of those enthusiasts who spend hours upon hours determining who would beat whom in a fight, but I do think it is desirable to an extent to sort out the power levels of a particular story. It can be very "Zen," taking the evidence and rearranging it into an organized form.
 

blksabbath74

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I don't take it nearly to the level of those enthusiasts who spend hours upon hours determining who would beat whom in a fight, but I do think it is desirable to an extent to sort out the power levels of a particular story. It can be very "Zen," taking the evidence and rearranging it into an organized form.
I'll make it simple...

1) Yen Sid
2) Mickey
3) Axel









4) Everyone else...
 

kuraudoVII

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I personally always thought that Terra and Aqua were always stronger than Sora and Riku. Dream Drop Distance was arguably the first time that Sora and Riku were roughly on par with the two of them in their base forms. One can argue that Sora in his Final Form is stronger than Terra and Aqua if one takes gameplay and the fact that his Final Form can automatically block the Lingering Will's attacks by just gliding of all things into account. However, I tend to think of characters' strengths in their base form first before going to their more ultimate forms like I would for discussing power levels in Dragon Ball Z.
 

Blackdrazon

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Can I pose a counter-question that's relevant to the topic at hand?

Why do these topics always pop up with such frequency? I get that part of the plot stems from "power" but kingdom hearts isn't a pissing contest. Why is it such an interest to so many people who is more "powerful" than who?
I'd say DDD actually made this very relevant, since it's an actual theme in the game.

Moreover, though, some people like making lists. And some people don't like making lists. How do I know? Because the last time I told someone that some people, like me, like making lists, they sent me death threats. So it's clearly something people are passionate about, either way. Some people like making lists, and some people really, really don't.

It's like the best possible explanation for Cracked.com. And Buzzfeed!
 

blksabbath74

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I'd say DDD actually made this very relevant, since it's an actual theme in the game.

Moreover, though, some people like making lists. And some people don't like making lists. How do I know? Because the last time I told someone that some people, like me, like making lists, they sent me death threats. I didn't say anything else, just "some people like making lists," and we weren't really taking about the topic of discussion at that point, just the idea of lists, so I can only really conclude that some people really, really don't.
You were warned. We're coming for you...

In all seriousness, internet tough guys usually weigh as much as my sister and live in their mom's basements.
 

Blackdrazon

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I'm not so interested in their threats as their anger. They seemed genuinely and truly affected by the idea that other people liked categorizing stuff into ranked lists. Maybe someone was a jerk to them once about it, I can't say for sure, but my underlying point is: in my experience, this gets to people, I can't say why.
 
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Acting that way over categorizing is indeed ridiculous. Though from my experience there seems to be more than just those that "like making lists" and those that dont, there are also some that just dont care either way. (I've seen many examples of the three and others on here over the years)

And generally what stems anger in most is that someone ranks their perceived fave character as lower than another, which is also silly to get angry over.

--------------------

On topic though, as already stated, the kh series is rather hard to list due to it's inconsistency which is why you have members like Tinny, and myself honestly, that finds it hard to understand the need to rank them.
Not that it's offensive or any such ways to us it's just hard for use to comprehend the need to do so.

Like, for example, you have moments were Sora can fight 1000 enemies at once and others were he can't handle just a few. There is also the fact sora is reset every game for actual in-story reasons making him even more inconsistent.
One must also take into account that Sora almost always has help in the form of Donald, Goofy or some other party member in his battles.

Even Xehanort has proved to be inconsistent in his levels of power among his forms. Master Xehanort the old and supposedly frail version was able to lift literal mountains out of flat terrain and use magic to warp up cyclones of dead keyblades.
While in contrast you have Terranort, MX in a much younger body, that supposedly should be the combined might of Terra and MX both yet he lost not once but twice to a empty suit of armor and to Aqua. Which seems rather off since Terra alone has been shown to be equal to Aqua in power.

There is also the aforementioned various forms of characters that come into play.

Everything is just to back and forth to give a definitive list to anyone.
The closest you'll ever get is to compare Terra and Aqua display of power in bbs to Sora and Riku in/after DDD which is the latest game.
Though it's impossible to say who is stronger, equal or weaker it's a safe assumption they are all four of comparable level.
 
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blksabbath74

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Even Xehanort has proved to be inconsistent in his levels of power among his forms. Master Xehanort the old and supposedly frail version was able to lift literal mountains out of flat terrain and use magic to warp up cyclones of dead keyblades.
While in contrast you have Terranort, MX in a much younger body, that supposedly should be the combined might of Terra and MX both yet he lost not once but twice to a empty suit of armor and to Aqua. Which seems rather off since Terra alone has been shown to be equal to Aqua in power.
You can probably chalk some of that up to Terra still putting up a fight on the inside, at least enough to prevent Xehanort from acting at his greatest level of efficiency...
 

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I'm going to base this purely off of Playable characters, meaning TAV, Sora, Roxas, and Riku, at the end of the games you play them in.

Clearly Aqua is the most powerful. She has a mastery of the strongest Magic in the entire KH Universe. She also goes toe-to-toe with some of the strongest enemies in the game, Vanitas numerous times, MX at the end of the game, and Terranort twice, albeit once was with the help of Terra's armour.

Next powerful would be Ventus. After having his darkness removed by MX, Ventus became the most clear of heart of the set of predecessors. Ventus also fights Malificent, despite being her base form, very early in his story being only slightly stronger than when he started. He also defeated Captain Hook after some experience. About midway through his story, he needed help to even handle Vanitas. However come the end of the game he was able to fight Vanitas without the Chi-Blade, then immediately after with the Chi-Blade. Vanitas may be the most powerful enemy Ventus fights as Vanitas was designed specifically for wielding the Chi-Blade.

Third strongest would be Riku. Riku has had much longer time with the Keyblade total than Sora. Riku has also trained under some of the most darkening circumstances, such as being controlled by Ansem for the first year and a half with the Keyblade. Riku was also chosen to receive the Keyblade in his future, unlike Sora. Also with Riku being the one to receive the title of Master at the end of 3D making him technically only the second Master leveled character we've played as.

Fourth is Terra. Terra has immense physical strength, but the darkness in his heart tampers with him heavily. Terra also never really fights anyone in his story that stands out as strong besides Master Xehanort, but is eventually defeated by Master Xehanort. I almost didn't want to put Terra this high due to his lack of notable enemies, however his immense strength helps heavily.

Fifth would be Roxas. Yes, Sora's Nobody is more powerful than Sora himself, one aspect I'll be getting into with Sora. We can assume that Roxas receives the battle experience that Sora gained prior to being split into a Heartless/Nobody. Roxas also has a years worth of training with 12 of the strongest fighters in the series. Also Roxas is the only character to have the Will to dual wield without the help of other characters.

Now Sora is the weakest character we've played as. Over the stretch of about 2.5 years, Sora had gained power, lost it, gained power, lost it again, and gained power once more. Sora has had the hardest time of all characters to keep up his strength. Now Sora could be seen as a natural fighter due to having part of Ventus' heart deep inside of his heart. I also don't think that once Ventus is revived Sora will keep all of his power. I believe that upon Ventus' revival, Sora will drop back to an apprentice leveled wielder and Ventus will inherit most of the abilities that Sora gained over the about 2.5 years that Sora was a wielder, possibly making Ventus the most powerful wielder in the game.
 

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While in contrast you have Terranort, MX in a much younger body, that supposedly should be the combined might of Terra and MX both yet he lost not once but twice to a empty suit of armor and to Aqua. Which seems rather off since Terra alone has been shown to be equal to Aqua in power.
.
I figured it was because the huge amount of darkness inside him was making him enraged. He could've easily won if he focused on his magic like he was doing before, but he wasn't thinking clearly and resorted mostly to brute force. And in the latter case Terra was clearly fighting against him.
 

h.e.hassanein

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i really hope this isn't getting off topic- I don't think it is since it debates sora's strength

(...) And on top of all that, the games keep finding excuses to bring Sora back to level 1, so you have to extrapolate his strength all over again (it honestly seems to be one of many cases of gameplay-story segregation, since the excuses they come up with for most of the power-downs are ridiculous).
There is also the fact sora is reset every game for actual in-story reasons making him even more inconsistent.
how would either of you have preferred the games to begin then? i'm genuinely curious. if the games started where the last one ended we would have sora start at level 99 strength....you'd already be stronger than all the heartless around.
and if the gamemakers tried to make this work by causing the heartless in turn to get stronger it'd be useless to have sora at level 99 at all. from a design point of view, how would you have fixed this?

Now Sora is the weakest character we've played as. Over the stretch of about 2.5 years, Sora had gained power, lost it, gained power, lost it again, and gained power once more. Sora has had the hardest time of all characters to keep up his strength.
wouldn't that make him the strongest, though? he's always made weak at the beginning of games, but manages to catch up to boss level by the end of the game every time. he could be incredibly strong by now if it weren't for all the resets he's been through, so i guess you mean circumstances have made him the weakest of the bunch.
 
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