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BBS Analysis - Vanitas and Sora



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Xinnjak

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Yeah... that's what I was saying.


It's not exactly the same as Sora replacing Vanitas though, because Vanitas was Ven's darkness. Sora didn't fill the missing part of Ven with darkness, he filled it with more light--his own light. So, it's a little different.

I only tried to tell you that I was aware of the fact he is the fracture. The foregoing sentence of yours "Sora filled in the fractured part of Ven's heart, since Vanitas IS that fracture" could have been missunderstood. It could mean you try to tell me Soras and Vanitas' part are the same. It was just to make sure I didn't missunderstand something :)
And needless to say I didn't think of Sora being the same as Vanitas. But he did replace him in some kind of way.
 

geisttgih

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In all honesty, I'm not quite sure what to make of this quote by Nomura. I can see how it could be from both sides, but I'm following HeartSeams a bit more here. I was in fact leaving my interpretation open to construction, and let me see if I get this connection straight, as Nomura puts it:

Ventus's broken heart of pure light finds refuge within unborn Sora's, while at the same time the "ripped-out" darkness of Vanitas carries a faceless (or perhaps more likely, almost identical to Ventus) appearance.

When Sora's heart (probably largely darkness at this point) takes in Ven's broken heart of pure light, it effectively fills in the part of Ven's heart that was taken away.

With Sora's physical appearance later-in-life already predetermined by the structure of his heart, the pure darkness part of Ven (Vanitas's heart of pure darkness) felt (by it's ethereal ties to Ven's broken heart) the physical appearance of Sora being absorbed into the heart complex, and being of pure darkness (rather than mostly darkness, which I believe Sora's unborn heart was still composed of) adopted an appearance of a darker Sora.

Ven still looked like Ven after the fission of his heart, because he was much more in tune with the light to begin with. As for Vanitas pre-Sora, I think it's logical to say that his appearance was at first one of utter darkness; almost complete disfigurement, as polar opposite to Ven's as one can be. It was in feeling the absorption of Sora's appearance / Sora's darkness, in Vanitas's heart being tied to Ven's heart still, that gave Vanitas another appearance to assume. Effectively, Sora's predetermined appearance gave shape to what the dark side of Ven's heart "should" assume.

Thus, Sora's immense light later in life can be explained I believe by how Ven's broken heart of pure light melded with the heart-bearing darkness of Sora's unborn heart, creating a "Sora heart" of primarily light, and a "healthy" amount of darkness. In this sense, the newly-born Sora and the replenished Ven shared almost identical hearts.
 

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Ventus's broken heart of pure light finds refuge within unborn Sora's, while at the same time the "ripped-out" darkness of Vanitas carries a faceless (or perhaps more likely, almost identical to Ventus) appearance.

When Sora's heart (probably largely darkness at this point) takes in Ven's broken heart of pure light, it effectively fills in the part of Ven's heart that was taken away.
Should be noted that, at this point, Sora didn't "take in" Ven's heart. He simply connected his own heart to Ven's, thus mending Ven's broken heart. Sora doesn't actually take in Ven's fractured heart until the end of the game.

(rather than mostly darkness, which I believe Sora's unborn heart was still composed of)
I would sooner believe Sora's heart (which is "just born" not "unborn") was more filled with light than darkness. They make many references to Sora's (and Riku's) hearts being filled with light in BBS, and how "warm" they are and all of that, plus, one has to consider that when Ven connected to Sora's heart, he still had a heart of pure light. If Sora had given Ventus darkness in some way, then Ventus wouldn't have had a pure heart.
 

geisttgih

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I would sooner believe Sora's heart (which is "just born" not "unborn") was more filled with light than darkness. They make many references to Sora's (and Riku's) hearts being filled with light in BBS, and how "warm" they are and all of that, plus, one has to consider that when Ven connected to Sora's heart, he still had a heart of pure light. If Sora had given Ventus darkness in some way, then Ventus wouldn't have had a pure heart.

Aren't these hearts that are filled with light of Sora and Riku as they are as young children? True, the heart is already "born" at the point when it connects to Ven's, but am I correct that Sora was not physically born at this point? Just prior to being born? In that case, I believe that his heart, waiting to assume it's place in Sora's body, is comprised more of the darkness that it was born from than anything else.

Then again, whether Sora's heart was more light or darkness at the point of its connection with Ven's might be irrelevant to Vanitas's appearance. The simple fact that Sora filled in the other part of Ven's heart meant that Vanitas would take on that appearance (because of his ties to Ven), regardless of whether Sora had "darkness to match" Vanitas's. In fact, it seems more plausible that it wouldn't matter whether Sora's heart at the time was mostly darkness or not; whatever his physical appearance or "light orientation" is, the simple fact that he completes/heals Ven's broken heart of light would imbue his physical traits on the "other part" of Ven's heart, i.e. Vanitas.
 

Xinnjak

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but am I correct that Sora was not physically born at this point? Just prior to being born?

You did see little Sora playing with Riku on the so well known island, did you? (Happnes as you progress in the game). The scene at the beginning was taking place four years before BBS and you have a good question there by asking if Sora was already born or not. I just read this on Wikia:

Some time prior to Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep, Sora's newly born heart encounters the injured heart of Ventus, and mends it, offering to help him until he no longer needs the help. This allows them to form a connection with one another, and causes Vanitas's face to resemble Sora's.
 

geisttgih

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You did see little Sora playing with Riku on the so well known island, did you?

Of course, that's why I posed the question of whether baby Sora had been born yet or not at the point of his and Ven's hearts meeting; it appears that he wasn't "born", as in hadn't quite been given birth to, but his heart was in fact born, and Sora's existence determined.

Thanks for the Wikia statement, I believe we've resolved the issue now. Vanitas is still the dark part of Ven's heart (though splitting Ven technically resulted in two hearts) so when Sora completes/mends Ven's heart, he fills in the part that is missing, the role also being played by Vanitas through the connection he and Ven share. Thus, Vanitas came to take the shape of an age-appropriate Sora.

As for whether, at the time of their meeting, Sora's heart was comprised of mostly darkness, or already comprised of the light he would come to exhibit, it really doesn't matter in relation to this topic. He filled in Ven's heart, the part still being "shared" by Vanitas. Vanitas being of pure darkness, he comes to take the shape of a dark version of Sora.

[So, while it doesn't really relate to this anymore, I still am of the belief that a heart "newly born" is still mostly comprised of the darkness it was born of. One may also choose to believe that when Ven's heart of pure light made contact with Sora's, that's what determined the strength of light Sora's heart contains throughout his life, or that his particular light just developed naturally, as some hearts do. For now, I believe the former. But again, it's a debate for a different topic.]

Thank you HeartSeams and Xinnjak for all your input and feedback. Although I must say, HeartSeams, your sig creeps me out to a great degree :)
 

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Of course, that's why I posed the question of whether baby Sora had been born yet or not at the point of his and Ven's hearts meeting; it appears that he wasn't "born", as in hadn't quite been given birth to, but his heart was in fact born, and Sora's existence determined.

Just clarifying, it was Sora also being born physically at that moment:

—Considering the conversation between Sora and Ventus in the ending of the Last Episode, is this saying that the “just born heart” that Ventus connects with in the opening is Sora’s?

NOMURA:
Yes. At first we supposed that it could be Sora before he was born, but because of opinions from overseas that “the heart doesn’t exist until after birth”, we discarded that portrayal.
 

geisttgih

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Ok, thank you Sign. So either Sora was being born, or his and Ven's hearts met very shortly after his birth. I find it a little amusing that Nomura's intended plot element was reshaped by the general view of the Western public. I wonder if he's saying we're generally all pro-choice...? :p
 

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[So, while it doesn't really relate to this anymore, I still am of the belief that a heart "newly born" is still mostly comprised of the darkness it was born of.

Ahh, I see where you're getting this 'newly born hearts are dark' thing. It's from 'all hearts are born from darkness' or whatever the line was, isn't it?

Me and some other people (Grass... HeartSeams?? some other people too) were debating the nature of Kingdom Hearts the object, and we came up with this:

Before the Keyblade War, when the all today's worlds were one World which did not have a shred of darkness in it, Kingdom Hearts existed as the giant heart of it. Kingdom Hearts is where all hearts are born. And in those days, hearts were born without any darkness. It wasn't until jealousy and greed over the light crept into their hearts that suddenly darkness flooded into this pure World, causing the cataclysm that destroyed the Realm of Light ending in the floating pieces of it we see today.

What happened was, the darkness of the Realm of Darkness spread through the Realm of Light, and swallowed the heart of the huge world, Kingdom Hearts, just like heartless swallow human hearts.

This is why Kingdom Hearts is no longer in the Realm of Light; it's lying in the deepest darkness.

Yet, all hearts are still born from Kingdom Hearts. But now, instead of being born from the heart of pure light directly into a world of light, the hearts must now travel through the Realm of Darkness to reach the Realm of Light to be born there. And, that is why every heart now has darkness. The journey taints them.

For example, Sora's heart was born from Kingdom Hearts, in the very blackest darkness in the Realm of Darkness. The little heart travelled from there to the Realm of Light, so it could be born into Sora's newborn body. On his way he met Ven's heart, connected to him to help him, and then moved on to be born into the Realm of Light. The journey through all that darkness is why Sora was born with a little darkness, just like everyone else. That is why later in life, despite being very good, he had enough darkness in his heart to produce a Shadow Heartless.

But, if they manage to save Kingdom Hearts from the Realm of Darkness, and restore the Realm of Light again, then everyone's hearts will be born in the Realm of Light like they were before the keyblade war, and no-one would be born with darkness in their hearts :3

So tl;dr, I don't think all hearts are born from predominately darkness: the opposite! All hearts are born from light, Kingdom Hearts. It's just that Kingdom Hearts is in the darkness, and every heart has to journey through it unprotected to be born, which taints them.
 

geisttgih

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Ahh, I see where you're getting this 'newly born hearts are dark' thing. It's from 'all hearts are born from darkness' or whatever the line was, isn't it?

Yep, that's precisely where I was coming from, but after hearing your collective theories, I'm remembering particular events and quotations from primarily the first game in the series, that lend plenty of credence to it. I really like the idea of a World governed by pure light, where all hearts are born of light, into divine beings; literally, born of light: Kairi's grandmother affirms Kingdom Hearts's presence in the events prior to the cataclysm when Sora visits Kairi's memory. I just never stopped to think much about the role Kingdom Hearts played in the ancient World, nor made the requisite connection with Kingdom Hearts as referenced by Kairi's grandmother.

In that vein then, yes, I now agree with your collective theory about the way hearts must travel through the Realm of Darkness to reach the Realm of Light (I don't want to start this discussion now, but what about hearts possibly being born in the Realm of Darkness...? :O) Sora directly references this when he tells Ansem, Seeker of Darkness: "I know now, without a doubt, Kingdom Hearts is light!"

Though, the light that then pours forth is simply symbolic with his statement; I don't believe that the door Ansem SoD opens is THE Kingdom Hearts (a perfect and complete union of all hearts), but rather, as Xehanort aptly describes in, a Kingdom "brought about forcibly and artificially through the collection of hearts": as I like to say, a mass effusion of hearts.

I do have one question though; is the cataclysm in Kairi's grandmother's story and the aftermath of the Keyblade War one in the same?
 

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I just never stopped to think much about the role Kingdom Hearts played in the ancient World, nor made the requisite connection with Kingdom Hearts as referenced by Kairi's grandmother.

Don't worry, I didn't make all these connections either until, trying to explain to someone the difference between the Door to Darkness and Kingdom Hearts itself, I went back and read the game scripts of KH and CoM and KH2 and the interviews and collected all the quotes and stuff and made a big thread on it.

The thread itself is a little outdated now that the English BbS is out, but if you would like to discuss theories about the Realms and about Kingdom Hearts over there and not derail this then, this is that thread :3

I'd love to talk about

what about hearts possibly being born in the Realm of Darkness...?

I don't believe that the door Ansem SoD opens is THE Kingdom Hearts (a perfect and complete union of all hearts), but rather, as Xehanort aptly describes in, a Kingdom "brought about forcibly and artificially through the collection of hearts": as I like to say, a mass effusion of hearts.

is the cataclysm in Kairi's grandmother's story and the aftermath of the Keyblade War one in the same?

*A*
 

Xinnjak

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The thread itself is a little outdated now that the English BbS is out, but if you would like to discuss theories about the Realms and about Kingdom Hearts over there and not derail this then, this is that thread :3

Thanks!! :D

And if you don't mind to make further explanations to a newbie I would love to hear if "the realm of darkness" is a stated element of the series? Because I don't recall hearing about it. (Thogh I could have forgotten about it since BBS is my first Kingdom Hearts after years).
 

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Thanks!! :D

And if you don't mind to make further explanations to a newbie I would love to hear if "the realm of darkness" is a stated element of the series? Because I don't recall hearing about it. (Thogh I could have forgotten about it since BBS is my first Kingdom Hearts after years).

The realm of darkness is a location.

There are three realms. The realm of Light, the Realm of In-Between (or "twilight"), and the Realm of Darkness. (I'm personally unsure if the Realm of Twilight actually exists or just refers to where the Realm of Light's border meets the Realm of Darkness' border.) Together, the three (two?) realms form a kind of spectrum. On one end, there is light, while on the other end, there is darkness.

Along this spectrum exist different worlds. Many of the Disney Worlds exist more in the Light, while worlds like Twilight Town, Radiant Garden/Hollow Bastion, and The World That Never Was exist closer to the Dark (not in the Dark Realm, but close to it--those ones exist in the In-Between).

Within the Realm of Darkness itself is a single plane, filled with the darkness of all those who exist in the light. This is why it appears as a single, endlessly-dark area when Aqua arrives there--it doesn't have it's own worlds, but instead a world that is a manifestation of all of the darkness in the universe. The strongest Heartless can be found here because the deepest darkness exists there.

Does that make sense? I'm not sure how well I explained it. You could probably imagine the Realm of Darkness being similar to purgatory, a seemingly-inescapable, evil place.
 

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The realm of darkness is a location.

There are three realms. The realm of Light, the Realm of In-Between (or "twilight"), and the Realm of Darkness. (I'm personally unsure if the Realm of Twilight actually exists or just refers to where the Realm of Light's border meets the Realm of Darkness' border.) Together, the three (two?) realms form a kind of spectrum. On one end, there is light, while on the other end, there is darkness.

Along this spectrum exist different worlds. Many of the Disney Worlds exist more in the Light, while worlds like Twilight Town, Radiant Garden/Hollow Bastion, and The World That Never Was exist closer to the Dark (not in the Dark Realm, but close to it--those ones exist in the In-Between).

Within the Realm of Darkness itself is a single plane, filled with the darkness of all those who exist in the light. This is why it appears as a single, endlessly-dark area when Aqua arrives there--it doesn't have it's own worlds, but instead a world that is a manifestation of all of the darkness in the universe. The strongest Heartless can be found here because the deepest darkness exists there.

Does that make sense? I'm not sure how well I explained it. You could probably imagine the Realm of Darkness being similar to purgatory, a seemingly-inescapable, evil place.
Radiant Garden isn't an In-Between Realm World.

Goes like this:

LIGHT REALM WORLDS:
-Destiny Islands
-Radiant Garden/Hollow Bastion
-Disney Castle/Disney Town/Steamboat Willie
-Wonderland
-Olympus Coliseum
-Deep Jungle
-100 Acre Woods
-Monstro*
-Agrabah
-Atlantica
-Halloween Town
-Neverland
-Land of Dragons
-Beast's Castle
-Space Paranoids
-Port Royal
-Pridelands
-Enchanted Dominion
-Castle of Dreams
-Dwarf Woodlands
-Deep Space*

IN-BETWEEN REALM WORLDS:
-Traverse Town
-Mysterious Tower
-Twilight Town
-Keyblade Graveyard
-Land of Departure/Castle Oblivion
-The World That Never Was
-End of the World**

and THE DARK REALM.

[size=-2]*-Monstro and Deep Space are likely not to be considered true worlds, as they are actually just things stuck in the sea of space. Monstro is a giant whale, and doesn't have a keyhole, likely meaning it isn't a true world, while Deep Space is a spaceship, and is also unlikely to have a keyhole.

**-the placement of End of the World is a little tricky, since it's never actually defined. Though, since Nomura has said that he considers it a "Nobody of Worlds" so-to-speak, it would make the most sense for it to be in the In-Between Realm.[/size]

That should be right...
 
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I'm liking some of the things I'm hearing, props to goldpanner and collaborators on coming up with that born in light, passed through darkness idea; never thought of things that deeply but it all seems to make a lot of sense. Could explain why there are evil people in the world, there heart spent longer in the dark realm trying to find its way into the new body, and as such was 'tainted' so to speak more than other hearts.

Anway we seem to be veering off a little so how about a Vanitas question, how likely is it that MX has ever seen Vanitas' face? If he chose to look at it the moment he (Vanitas) was created he may have seen either a 'darkened' version of Ven, or possibly a blank face (like Xion) which has already been mentioned. Anyway once Ven's wounded heart took refuge with Sora, would Vanitas not have noticed a change in his physical appearance? (surely he doesn't keep his mask on constantly, guys gotta eat after all)

Say he told MX of this change (and surely in the 4 years leading up to BBS, MX would have had to have seen his face as Sora's at some point), would seeing the real Sora in MX's later incarnations (either ASoD or Xemnas) bring back memories of MX's past life? Even if MX never looked at Vanitas' face as soon as he was created, thereby noticing a change, surely he would want to know why Vanitas later takes on Sora's appearance. As a man who is quite interested in exploring darkness related theories, surely studying the implications of splitting a heart and noting how the result of the 'experiment' is affected by anything would be worth researching into.

Having all these theories spring to mind now, guess there's nothing to do but mince over them really
 

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Anway we seem to be veering off a little so how about a Vanitas question, how likely is it that MX has ever seen Vanitas' face? If he chose to look at it the moment he (Vanitas) was created he may have seen either a 'darkened' version of Ven, or possibly a blank face (like Xion) which has already been mentioned. Anyway once Ven's wounded heart took refuge with Sora, would Vanitas not have noticed a change in his physical appearance? (surely he doesn't keep his mask on constantly, guys gotta eat after all)
Vanitas was born with his mask on.
But, after the Mark of Mastery exam, Vanitas has his helmet off and MX talks with him, so, we know for sure that MX has seen Vanitas' face when it looked like Sora at least.
 

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Re: BBS Analysis - Vanitas and Sora


[So, while it doesn't really relate to this anymore, I still am of the belief that a heart "newly born" is still mostly comprised of the darkness it was born of.


Ahh, I see where you're getting this 'newly born hearts are dark' thing. It's from 'all hearts are born from darkness' or whatever the line was, isn't it?

Me and some other people (Grass... HeartSeams?? some other people too) were debating the nature of Kingdom Hearts the object, and we came up with this:

Before the Keyblade War, when the all today's worlds were one World which did not have a shred of darkness in it, Kingdom Hearts existed as the giant heart of it. Kingdom Hearts is where all hearts are born. And in those days, hearts were born without any darkness. It wasn't until jealousy and greed over the light crept into their hearts that suddenly darkness flooded into this pure World, causing the cataclysm that destroyed the Realm of Light ending in the floating pieces of it we see today.

What happened was, the darkness of the Realm of Darkness spread through the Realm of Light, and swallowed the heart of the huge world, Kingdom Hearts, just like heartless swallow human hearts.

This is why Kingdom Hearts is no longer in the Realm of Light; it's lying in the deepest darkness.

Yet, all hearts are still born from Kingdom Hearts. But now, instead of being born from the heart of pure light directly into a world of light, the hearts must now travel through the Realm of Darkness to reach the Realm of Light to be born there. And, that is why every heart now has darkness. The journey taints them.

For example, Sora's heart was born from Kingdom Hearts, in the very blackest darkness in the Realm of Darkness. The little heart travelled from there to the Realm of Light, so it could be born into Sora's newborn body. On his way he met Ven's heart, connected to him to help him, and then moved on to be born into the Realm of Light. The journey through all that darkness is why Sora was born with a little darkness, just like everyone else. That is why later in life, despite being very good, he had enough darkness in his heart to produce a Shadow Heartless.

But, if they manage to save Kingdom Hearts from the Realm of Darkness, and restore the Realm of Light again, then everyone's hearts will be born in the Realm of Light like they were before the keyblade war, and no-one would be born with darkness in their hearts :3
I like the theory. But that also begs the question of how the POH's factor into this?
 

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I like the theory. But that also begs the question of how the POH's factor into this?

Another question could be:
Are there hidden passageways in the Realm of Darkness that directly links it to the Realm of Light so that some of the hearts that can find these passageways aren't infected by the darkness? Or this: can some hearts broaden their abilities and use them to directly go into the RoL?
 

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You know when Vanitas was created. And, how he looked after he took off his helmet to fight Ven at the end of Ven's story in BBS. Well, I think that Xion and Vanitas might have something in common. At the beginning of Days, Xion didn't have any physical features. She just wore her hood up all the time. I was thinking that perhaps that was the same case with Vanitas. Maybe, he didn't start to look like Sora until after Ven connected his heart to Sora's infant heart.
 
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