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BBS Analysis - Vanitas and Sora



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geisttgih

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Hello all, this will be my first post in this forum.

I have been an avid Kingdom Hearts fan since the series' beginnings with Kingdom Hearts, and in my ever-growing love for the mythos, characters, and my desire to fully understand this World, I have begun to record an analysis of Birth by Sleep, its events, and its ramifications on the series' story as a whole.

This endeavor is mostly for my own enjoyment and intrigue, but I did want to bounce my view of the similar appearances of Vanitas and Sora off of any who are interested and who would like to give me your thoughts in return. Here is the excerpt from my "report" describing the situation, as I see it:

"One may wonder why Vanitas and Sora look so similar. When Ven's heart takes refuge in the unborn Sora's, it determines the physical appearance that Sora will grow to adopt (unborn Sora's heart likely being still very shapeable). When Xehanort rips out the darkness in Ven's heart and creates Vanitas, we see the physical embodiment of the darkness in Ventus's heart. Likewise, Ven's appearance after the fission represents the light of his heart (not much of a change, considering Ven's light was so strong to begin with). Ven's broken heart of pure light takes refuge in unborn Sora's, and melds with darkness without form (what all hearts, including Sora's, are born of). This effectively recreates the "pure light / pure dark" contrast in terms of appearance. Thus, when Sora reaches the appropriate age, he resembles a balance between the looks of Ventus and Vanitas: the facial structure and hair of Vanitas, with normal eyes and a much lighter hair color."

I hope that this belief of mine, after careful thought, is clearly expressed in the above paragraph. Again, I'm not sure that this statement is 100% true, in fact, I expect in time it won't be. My aim is to hear constructive community feedback about the physical appearance connections of Ven, Vanitas, and Sora. I believe the following model might help to illustrate what I'm saying.

L = pure light, D = pure darkness (remember that each of these "elements" has a part in determining appearance)

Ven's heart before the fission by Xehanort:

LD (Ven's "light" appearance is due to the high ratio of light to darkness in this case)

after the fission:

Ven <--------> Vanitas
L <----------> D

When unborn Sora's heart offers refuge to Ven's broken heart of pure light:

Ven ----><---- Heart-bearing darkness
L -------><-------- D

Sora's heart (and balanced appearance over time):

Ven's light appearance | Darkness whose appearance is affected by Ven's light
LD
 

BahamutZERO

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I like this theory, and I also believe this is why Sora's "Nobody"-Roxas- is symmetrical to Ventus. Although Roxas didn't have a heart, it is possible he took the appearance of Ventus over the appearance of Vanitus because of the lack of a heart in general, but still retaining his memories from Sora, and Sora's light(Which is also Ventus?). These memories and Sora's light may have been what shaped Roxas' appearance as a "Nobody".
 

geisttgih

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I like this theory, and I also believe this is why Sora's "Nobody"-Roxas- is symmetrical to Ventus. Although Roxas didn't have a heart, it is possible he took the appearance of Ventus over the appearance of Vanitus because of the lack of a heart in general, but still retaining his memories from Sora, and Sora's light(Which is also Ventus?). These memories and Sora's light may have been what shaped Roxas' appearance as a "Nobody".

Yes, I believe Sora's light could indeed be considered Ventus's light, as per my model above. As for Roxas, that may be a matter for another thread entirely, but the evidence I see points to Ven's broken heart of light being contained in Roxas; while often considered a Nobody (lacking any heart at all), it is clear that Roxas had a different, shall we say, "outlook" than his fellow Organization members - perhaps a bit more feeling, a bit more emotion, than is capable of a being completely devoid of heart? When Sora was split into a Nobody and a Heartless, either:

A) The darkness that Sora's heart must travel through to reach Kairi's "repels" Ven's broken heart of pure light,

B) Kairi's heart is "unwilling" to accept both Sora's and Ven's broken one, or

C) When Sora's heart is released, it no longer possesses the positional "anchor", or leverage, that would allow it to keep its bonds with another heart. Thus, Ven's heart stays behind in Sora's shell, and imbues its physical traits of Ven/pure light upon Roxas, along with SOME feelings and emotions (This is my favorite, and I believe the most metaphysically logical, but it also opens up a whole new branch of heart mechanics that has yet to be even mentioned by the story).

Thanks for giving me another opportunity for expression. I am hoping to keep this thread focused on the physical appearance connection of Vanitas and Sora for the time being, though :)
 

Goldpanner

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But... Nomura already said that Vanitas is the one who looks like Sora, not the other way around.

—How did you decide on the design for their faces?
NOMURA: Well Terra’s look was already a decided thing, we just had to make him look a bit younger. I knew that Ventus should look either like Sora or Roxas, and I wasn’t sure which one to go with, but I thought Vanitas looking like Sora would have a bigger impact so I had Ventus look like Roxas instead. And there is a reason that Vanitas looks like Sora. As Sora filled in Ventus’ fractured heart, the fractured part (Vanitas) was affected by Sora and ended up with Sora’s face. So if it had been Riku who had filled in Ventus’ heart, Vanitas would have looked like Riku.
 

Xinnjak

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But, dear goldpanner, isn't this just a matter of formulation? Looking at your quote, you have to differ between two things: First, BBS, considering the time axis of the KH-universe which was before Sora and KH1. Second, when Nomura puts it the way you mentioned, saying Vanitas looks like Sora and not the other way around, he refers to the point where he was creating BBS, for that being after KH1.
I like your theories, geisttgih, but i dislike Nomura's statement in the quote above. He used the words "bigger impact". I don't know, if he really didn't think of deeper reasons for Vanitas looking like Sora. Maybe he should ask geisttgih for some advice XD
 

HeartSeams

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But, dear goldpanner, isn't this just a matter of formulation? Looking at your quote, you have to differ between two things: First, BBS, considering the time axis of the KH-universe which was before Sora and KH1. Second, when Nomura puts it the way you mentioned, saying Vanitas looks like Sora and not the other way around, he refers to the point where he was creating BBS, for that being after KH1.
I like your theories, geisttgih, but i dislike Nomura's statement in the quote above. He used the words "bigger impact". I don't know, if he really didn't think of deeper reasons for Vanitas looking like Sora. Maybe he should ask geisttgih for some advice XD
The fact that Nomura adds that, had Riku been the one to connect to Ventus, Vanitas would have looked like him, kind of proves simply that it is Vanitas who is looking like these characters, not the other way around.
 

Xinnjak

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You didn't get my point, I'm sorry. Thats just what I tried to say. BBS was created after Nomura created KH1, he was just telling us his ideas for the time creating BBS. Am I wrong?
 

HeartSeams

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It doesn't really matter which he made first if his explanation is:
"Vanitas looks like _______" not "_____ looks like Vanitas".
He could have made BBS last and still have the explanation that
"______ looks like Vanitas" but the point is that it's not that way.
 

Xinnjak

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Please have patience with me :) Vanitas is the Darkness within Ventus. You know that, I know. Sora and Ventus are completely unrelated by that time. So how could Vanitas be predicated on Soras' appearance? I think Nomura just tried to say, by the time he was creating BBS and thinking about Vanitas' looking, he was considering both, Sora and Riku as model. But, as he said, Sora would cause a "bigger impact" and chose him. So, seen from Nomura's point of view, Vanitas looks like Sora. I just consider the possibility you are weighing his words and it wasn't meant the way you make interpretations here.
Am I on the wrong train? XD
 
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HeartSeams

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Please have patience with me :) Vanitas is the Darkness within Ventus. You know that, I know. Sora and Ventus are completely unrelated by that time. So how could Vanitas be predicated on Soras' appearance? I think Nomura just tried to say, by the time he was creating BBS and thinking about Vanitas' looking, he was considering both, Sora and Riku as model. But, as he said, Sora would cause a "bigger impact" and chose him. So, seen from Nomura's point of view, Vanitas looks like Sora. I just consider the possibility you are weighing his words and it wasn't meant the way you make interpretations here.
Am I on the wrong train? XD
His answer is in two phases though. The first phase talks about the development side of things (why he made Vanitas look like Sora, being, for the "impact") but the second half of his answer is giving you the reason why Vanitas looks like that in the story. And, as far as the story is concerned, Vanitas looks like Sora, not the other way around, because of when Sora connected his heart to Ventus'.

That's really all there is to it, and any thoughts otherwise are simply trying to over complicate the matter.
 

rac7d

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did you com eup with theis theory beofre nomura announced it
 

Xinnjak

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And, as far as the story is concerned, Vanitas looks like Sora, not the other way around, because of when Sora connected his heart to Ventus'.

That's really all there is to it, and any thoughts otherwise are simply trying to over complicate the matter.

Still leaves me with the question, how Vanitas and Sora should have been connected. The Connection has been afterwards, no? Vanitas looked like Sora even before they connected. You speak of complicating the matter. I try to speak of logic and you are not giving me any answers, just refering to the words I also read and am aware of.
 

HeartSeams

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Vanitas looked like Sora even before they connected.
Vanitas was born with his helmet on. We have no way of knowing what he looked like before Sora connected to Ven's heart. But the reason why Vanitas looks like Sora when we DO see him without his helmet is simple: because Sora connected his heart to Ven's. That's all there is to it for the explanation. That IS the answer. Vanitas looks like Sora, not the other way around.
 

padlock

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Still leaves me with the question, how Vanitas and Sora should have been connected. The Connection has been afterwards, no? Vanitas looked like Sora even before they connected. You speak of complicating the matter. I try to speak of logic and you are not giving me any answers, just refering to the words I also read and am aware of.

Actually we never see Vanitus' face until he faces off against Ven, so we have no idea what he looked like. It could be that he was blank, like Xion. I think what Nomura was referencing perhaps was that it was the symbiotic nature of the Sora/Ven/Vanitus relationship that caused Vanitus to end up that way i.e. Sora fusing with Ven's heart changed or even created Vanitus' appearance.

HeartSeams can be very blunt sometimes but he generally knows his shit :D I don't think he meant to irritate you. HUGS ALLROUND!

EDIT: Also, Chord Overstreet yum! :3
 

Xinnjak

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Okay, now that's the point our state of knowledge does not resemble. I get the picture. But please give me another hint, because I obvisiously got the wrong idea: When did Sora connect with Venven? I (wrongly) thought it happend at the very end of his episode, when Venven fell into the light. (That would be too late for "making Vanitas' Sora")
 

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Okay, now that's the point our state of knowledge does not resemble. I get the picture. But please give me another hint, because I obvisiously got the wrong idea: When did Sora connect with Venven? I (wrongly) thought it happend at the very end of his episode, when Venven fell into the light. (That would be too late for "making Vanitas' Sora")

Umm, it's the very first cutscene of the game... although chronologically it happens just before Xehanort delivers him to Eraqus. (It tells you in Xehanort's report if you want to be 100% sure)

Yay hundredth post!
 

Xinnjak

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I read it was not Sora completing the heart at the beginning. I was mistaken, I guess. But I still see no connection between Vanitas (who split from Ventus even before Sora connected) and Sora because Sora did complete Ventus' heart and not Vanitas'. Sure you can say Ventus and Vanitas are the same and so did Sora also affect Vanitas. But maybe now I'm getting too fussy, thanks for correcting me =)

Congrats padlock XD
 

HeartSeams

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Actually we never see Vanitus' face until he faces off against Ven, so we have no idea what he looked like. It could be that he was blank, like Xion. I think what Nomura was referencing perhaps was that it was the symbiotic nature of the Sora/Ven/Vanitus relationship that caused Vanitus to end up that way i.e. Sora fusing with Ven's heart changed or even created Vanitus' appearance.

HeartSeams can be very blunt sometimes but he generally knows his shit :D I don't think he meant to irritate you. HUGS ALLROUND!

EDIT: Also, Chord Overstreet yum! :3
I'm a girl. =/

Okay, now that's the point our state of knowledge does not resemble. I get the picture. But please give me another hint, because I obvisiously got the wrong idea: When did Sora connect with Venven? I (wrongly) thought it happend at the very end of his episode, when Venven fell into the light. (That would be too late for "making Vanitas' Sora")
It's in the first few cutscenes of the game. They take place 4 years before BBS actually starts.
Here's the Nomura quote confriming it:
—Considering the conversation between Sora and Ventus in the ending of the Last Episode, is this saying that the “just born heart” that Ventus connects with in the opening is Sora’s?
NOMURA:
Yes.
and
—Then, when Ven’s heart was fractured, someone completed his heart with their own. Was this Sora’s heart?
NOMURA
: Yes. That was when Sora was born into the world.

But I still see no connection between Vanitas (who split from Ventus even before Sora connected) and Sora because Sora did complete Ventus' heart and not Vanitas'.
Sora filled in the fractured part of Ven's heart, since Vanitas IS that fracture it affected him as well. Vanitas and Ventus were deeply connected even when separated, so, Sora filling in the missing piece of Ven's heart in turn affected Vanitas.
 

Xinnjak

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Sora filled in the fractured part of Ven's heart, since Vanitas IS that fracture it affected him as well. Vanitas and Ventus were deeply connected even when separated, so, Sora filling in the missing piece of Ven's heart in turn affected Vanitas.

Okay, but why do you write Vanitas IS the fracture? He is the missing part, no? (Though he was represented by a smaller part in this case I've seen him as an independent one) I thought of it as Sora replacing Vanitas since Vanitas himself was seperated. The deep connection though I did mention, too. I can accept it that way.
 
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HeartSeams

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Okay, but why do you write Vanitas IS the fracture? He is the missing part, no?
Yeah... that's what I was saying.

I thought of it as Sora replacing Vanitas since Vanitas himself was seperated.
It's not exactly the same as Sora replacing Vanitas though, because Vanitas was Ven's darkness. Sora didn't fill the missing part of Ven with darkness, he filled it with more light--his own light. So, it's a little different.
 
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