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At which point do you think the story of KH started to become convoluted?



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When did the plot become convoluted?

  • Kingdom Hearts 0.2 Birth by Sleep - A Fragmentary Passage

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kirabook

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I'm telling ya, if Nomura stuck with the "door to the past" aesthetic and tied it into the "you will be the one who opens the door" whatever the heck that means, it would've been prettttty epic.

Imagine each Xehanort has their own door with its own fancy KH design to represent each game he came from. Sora going world to world in the final battle to shove Xehanort back in and lock the door for good with his keyblade.

I think that's so cool.
 

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I voted KH2 but I’m honestly going to go back and change it to 3D because I think that was the first time in the series that the lore seemed to break under itself.

To this day, if you overanalyze KH3D’s plot, it will absolutely crumble apart so you have to just take it at its face value.
 

SweetYetSalty

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I'm staying with my BBS vote. BBS has retcon problems, inconsistent problems, and convoluted problems within it's own lore that it just made up. Xehanort doesn't even fit the tone set by the older games anymore. At least Apprentice Xehanort, Ansem SOD and Xemnas feel like progression of the story of a man who studied darkness and lost his heart in the process of his experiments. When you add in Master Xehanort, Terra, and Terranort they feel complicated just for the sake of it and are divorced from the early stories of Xehanort in Radiant Garden/Hollow Bastion. Apprentice Xehanort isn't even a character anymore, just some weird fusion of two Keyblade wielders. And yet Xemnas can't wield and we're never given a real reason why.

BBS doesn't even try to fit it's new narrative with old games it just changes whatever it wants and hopes you don't ask questions. It's why no real reason is given why we never heard of Master Xehanort, The Wayfinder Trio, or Keyblade Wars in the prior games but every game after BBS treats them like they are the biggest mystery we've been trying to solve since day one. At least COM and Days were smaller scale titles that use their memory nonsense to explain why they aren't mentioned. Whether you find that good or not comes to preference. And KH2 didn't change too much from KH1 mainly the "Ansem isn't Ansem" which, while dumb in how they explained it, still kept the narrative of the same villain. Are Nobodies really more convoluted then Heartless?

It's not even that I hate BBS. Minus the Master Keyblade stuff I don't even think the concepts here are bad. I like BBS especially as time goes on, but I also acknowledge how bloated it is and how many of the problems of the series manifest here and how they were not consistent with the early material of the series.

Sure DDD is convoluted too especially when it tries to Frankenstein everything together with time travel, but the main things it had to address began in BBS, because this was the game that brought in "destined to happen" which is just as bad as time travel Imo. The question being asked is not "which is the most convoluted in the in the series" but "when did it start to get convoluted" and for me it started with BBS, it's 100% fair game for the title.
 

Sean Wheeler

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I'm telling ya, if Nomura stuck with the "door to the past" aesthetic and tied it into the "you will be the one who opens the door" whatever the heck that means, it would've been prettttty epic.

Imagine each Xehanort has their own door with its own fancy KH design to represent each game he came from. Sora going world to world in the final battle to shove Xehanort back in and lock the door for good with his keyblade.

I think that's so cool.
And Sulley could have thrown Vanitas back into his Birth by Sleep door, and threw that door into four Monsters Inc doors and shredded the final door.
Are Nobodies really more convoluted then Heartless?
Yeah. When they are stated to not exist, that begs the question: What does it mean to exist in the Kingdom Hearts universe? And if they don't exist, how can they be causing so much problems? If your heart is ripped from your body, your body still exists. The only way I could make sense out of the "Nobodies don't exist" statement is it was claimed by people who hate Nobodies. When Nobodies say it, they're self-loathing. It's a good thing they don't suffer from Tinker Bell's weakness when someone denies the existence of fairies.
 

SweetYetSalty

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And Sulley could have thrown Vanitas back into his Birth by Sleep door, and threw that door into four Monsters Inc doors and shredded the final door.

Yeah. When they are stated to not exist, that begs the question: What does it mean to exist in the Kingdom Hearts universe? And if they don't exist, how can they be causing so much problems? If your heart is ripped from your body, your body still exists. The only way I could make sense out of the "Nobodies don't exist" statement is it was claimed by people who hate Nobodies. When Nobodies say it, they're self-loathing. It's a good thing they don't suffer from Tinker Bell's weakness when someone denies the existence of fairies.
Good point. When it comes to existence it might have something to do with hearts being what a person is in KH. Bodies aren't important in the series if a heart is not in the drivers seat operating them. Though it begs the question how Nobodies function at all without them? They never dive into these kinds of questions.
 

AegisXIII

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Good point. When it comes to existence it might have something to do with hearts being what a person is in KH. Bodies aren't important in the series if a heart is not in the drivers seat operating them. Though it begs the question how Nobodies function at all without them? They never dive into these kinds of questions.
What you just said made me think about the vessel thing. Why would they need to build empty vessels if they have an army of nobodies? You can just put a heart in it and it would take the shape of the person no?
 

SweetYetSalty

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What you just said made me think about the vessel thing. Why would they need to build empty vessels if they have an army of nobodies? You can just put a heart in it and it would take the shape of the person no?
Replicas seem more customizable then Nobodies, if that even makes sense. And now that all Nobodies grow hearts of their own there really isn't anything special about them anymore. Replicas are still weird enough to use as vessels. The Xehanort Replicas could have filled the ranks themselves. As for why they didn't put hearts in lesser Nobodies probably because they are lesser bodies. The body would still be weak even if they took on Xehanorts form. But who really knows?
 

AdrianXXII

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I voted KH2 but I’m honestly going to go back and change it to 3D because I think that was the first time in the series that the lore seemed to break under itself.

To this day, if you overanalyze KH3D’s plot, it will absolutely crumble apart so you have to just take it at its face value.
Personally my take is DDD is where it began to noticeably break and become undeniable. KH2 is where the cracks started or the faulty support was laid.

Most things that didn't work in DDD somewhat surfaced in lesser forms in KH2. I just would claim KH2, BBS and Days could get away with it better, because they didnt lean on those choices quite as much as DDD did. KH2, BBS and Days all had stories that could stand on their own and kind of masked some of the more questionable choices and recons.
And KH2 didn't change too much from KH1 mainly the "Ansem isn't Ansem" which, while dumb in how they explained it, still kept the narrative of the same villain. Are Nobodies really more convoluted then Heartless?
It's more than just that. KH2 kind of throws a lot of the stuff that KH1 said would happen by Sora and Co. beating Ansem SOD out the Window. There are still a lot of heartless naturally appearing, (they could have said this was the result of dark forces like Organisation 13 and Pete, but didn't). Traveling between the Worlds was supposed to be hard, but nope Sora and friends didn't have to be taught or work to obtain new pathways, they just magically appear to him now. They also never address why Sora no longer needs to lock the worlds, he just suddenly doesn't do that anymore, despite it being important up until Castle Oblivion.

It also introduced the idea that everyone forgot about Sora and did nothing with it, like what was the point? Like this could have been a B plot for side characters like Kairi to deal with, but everyone just shrugs it off like it didn't happen.

I'd want to say KH2 also redefined what heartless are but I think that might have been KH1FM, but they went from people who lost their hearts to darkness, to being people's hearts overcome by darkness. This is minor and I don't mind it, but also highlights just how quick this series is to change things.

While I like the idea of Nobodies, the fact that they "don't exist" doesn't make sense, I'd get it if people said "they shouldn't exist" seeing their creation isn't "natural".

They also have Riku look like Ansem for the shock value and to make the player question what's going on, but once We learn that that's Riku instead of working toward a solution to turn him back, some random event happens and he just turns back. Which kind of is part of the trend of main characters encounter X problem, suddenly Y happens to solve X without the main characters needing to do z to cause y.
 

SweetYetSalty

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Personally my take is DDD is where it began to noticeably break and become undeniable. KH2 is where the cracks started or the faulty support was laid.

Most things that didn't work in DDD somewhat surfaced in lesser forms in KH2. I just would claim KH2, BBS and Days could get away with it better, because they didnt lean on those choices quite as much as DDD did. KH2, BBS and Days all had stories that could stand on their own and kind of masked some of the more questionable choices and recons.

It's more than just that. KH2 kind of throws a lot of the stuff that KH1 said would happen by Sora and Co. beating Ansem SOD out the Window. There are still a lot of heartless naturally appearing, (they could have said this was the result of dark forces like Organisation 13 and Pete, but didn't). Traveling between the Worlds was supposed to be hard, but nope Sora and friends didn't have to be taught or work to obtain new pathways, they just magically appear to him now. They also never address why Sora no longer needs to lock the worlds, he just suddenly doesn't do that anymore, despite it being important up until Castle Oblivion.

It also introduced the idea that everyone forgot about Sora and did nothing with it, like what was the point? Like this could have been a B plot for side characters like Kairi to deal with, but everyone just shrugs it off like it didn't happen.

I'd want to say KH2 also redefined what heartless are but I think that might have been KH1FM, but they went from people who lost their hearts to darkness, to being people's hearts overcome by darkness. This is minor and I don't mind it, but also highlights just how quick this series is to change things.

While I like the idea of Nobodies, the fact that they "don't exist" doesn't make sense, I'd get it if people said "they shouldn't exist" seeing their creation isn't "natural".

They also have Riku look like Ansem for the shock value and to make the player question what's going on, but once We learn that that's Riku instead of working toward a solution to turn him back, some random event happens and he just turns back. Which kind of is part of the trend of main characters encounter X problem, suddenly Y happens to solve X without the main characters needing to do z to cause y.
I...actual agree with this. I wasted my vote on BBS. I wanna change it now 😭
 

Clue.Less

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As soon as the "heartless" became the person's heart (and then the Nobody = the person's body), just... *facepalm*

I love this series to bits and I particularly love how symbolic and metaphysical it is, but though the visual symbols are spectacular (from the station of awakening aesthetics to the crazy final world cube), the concepts and the discourse have always made me tune out and sigh/giggle. So by the time DDD came around I was like "Sure, whatever... just give me a station of awakening fight at some point."

I voted KH2 for the mysterious tower lore dump and CoM for the insistent "to lose is to find" brainf*** - I agree that it may be more "complex" than "convoluted" but it was torture for me.

I would have voted KH1 with lots of love, too, like Somnus caelum said :D
 
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SweetYetSalty

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If KH1FM was up there I would change my vote to that one. I say FM because it's technically Xemnas's first game so first Nobody XD
 

UsagiChan

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The kingdom hearts series kinda reminds me of {miraculous ladybug and Cat noir} like how everyone now gets a keyblade is similar to how everyone now gets a miraculous powers🤣
 

Sean Wheeler

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And when you add the lore of several different Disney movies, it also gets convoluted. Davy Jones' heart is very different from the hearts the series established. Olympus Coliseum makes Greek mythology real. Santa Claus not only delivers presents to not only children in the world connected to Halloween Town but also everyone in the KH universe. There are worlds within computers like the one Tron lives in. We've got different fairies: the ones from Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella's Fairy Godmother and Tinker Bell. There was a curse on a castle that turned the prince into a Beast and the servants into talking objects. Cursed Aztec treasure turns pirates into skeletons in the moonlight. We've got Genies in Agrabah and mermaids in Atlantica. We've got a girl with ridiculously long hair. A Snow Queen could bring snowmen to life. Pixie dust makes you fly. There are living toys. There are anthropomorphic bipedal animals and quadruped talking animals and cartoon animals that don't talk. We've got a man raised by apes. There is a strange world with stuff altering your size and a queen who has cards for guards, a purple smiling cat who keeps taking off his head and disappearing, talking doorknob, and a well dressed White Rabbit who's always late. There is a whale flying through space that would eat Gummi ships, but his insides are nothing like a real whale. There was a girl who left her glass slipper at the palace, so the Grand Duke had to find the woman with the right foot size, and despite the girl's stepmother breaking it, she had the matching slipper that didn't change back when the Fairy Godmother's magic wore off. And that magic included turning a pumpkin into a carriage. We've got a squid-faced pirate with a pet Kraken. We've got a world inside a book. We've got a world with a tall skeleton in a pinstripe suit and a living rag doll made by a scientist who can literally open his head. We've got a bag of bugs and a two-faced mayor who spins his head to use the face made for his emotion. We've got a world based on Imperial China where a woman had to crossdress to get into an army that didn't admit women. And she had a tiny red dragon to help her! We've got a lion overthrowing his uncle who murdered his father to become king. Just adding all these Disney worlds makes things even more crazy doesn't it? Oh, and Squall from Final Fantasy has a Gunblade. Seems like the perfect rival to the Keyblade doesn't it? And his best friend is a ninja who can teleport and throw glowing shurikens. The crossover aspect makes Kingdom Hearts more convoluted doesn't it?
 

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Was I the only one completely satisfied with the PotC world in KH3? It has way less Will and Elizabeth in it, you were pretty much completely not involved with it's terrible film story, and the only plot significant character was Tia Salma and crab Jack. Also Pete wasn't there clashing with the vibe of it's visual style.
 

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'Till Union χ[Cross], I [mostly] understood the series. Dream Drop Distance was a little confusing, but not too bad. But Union χ[Cross] and KHIII. Those sent my head spinning. I don't mind though. I love this series too much 😄
 

Snowflake:3

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You know? I was going to say UX, but I can't deny anything said here.

But on my original point, all of that was made worse by this right here:

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Ventus being here just opened up a whole other can of worms. Up untill this point I think everything was a type "go with it and you'll be fine", but UX just introduces stuff upon stuff that makes it all so difficult to understand.
Are we pretending that birth by sleep wasn’t the first to introduce characters from the past and let them live all the way to the present time without aging? I can understand why Ven didn’t age between bbs and kh1 cause he was lifeless body with no soul, but what about Terra and Aqua? In truth Aqua should be a little older by now and Terra should be 30 years old, or is being possessed stop you from aging?
 

KudoTsurugi

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Are we pretending that birth by sleep wasn’t the first to introduce characters from the past and let them live all the way to the present time without aging? I can understand why Ven didn’t age between bbs and kh1 cause he was lifeless body with no soul, but what about Terra and Aqua? In truth Aqua should be a little older by now and Terra should be 30 years old, or is being possessed stop you from aging?
It’s never stated how old Aqua is after her time in the RoD, since time flows differently there, but I imagine it’s at least been a few months to a year for her. As for Terra, his heart was trapped in the Guardian, so he technically didn’t have a body to age. Xehanort basically hijacked Terra and put himself in the driver’s seat as the heart in control. And since most of the Xehanorts traveled from the past to new replica bodies in KH3, they physically haven’t aged.
 
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UsagiChan

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Are we pretending that birth by sleep wasn’t the first to introduce characters from the past and let them live all the way to the present time without aging?
Oooh that’s true! I still stand by that the convoluted plot happened with the games post kh2.

It’s never stated how old Aqua is after her time in the RoD, since time flows differently there, but I imagine it’s at least been a few months to a year for her. As for Terra, his heart was trapped in the Guardian, so he technically didn’t have a body to age. Xehanort basically hijacked Terra and put himself in the driver’s seat as the heart in control. And since most of the Xehanorts traveled from the past to new replica bodies in KH3, they physically haven’t aged.
I agree, that’s the only real answer, Terra was trapped as the Guardian and Aqua didn’t actually feel the 10 years gap.
 
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Smithee

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At least Apprentice Xehanort, Ansem SOD and Xemnas feel like progression of the story of a man who studied darkness and lost his heart in the process of his experiments.
Agreed.
Plus, the "not Ansem" twist gave us Xemnas and DIZ. I couldn't complain.
 
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