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At which point do you think the story of KH started to become convoluted?



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When did the plot become convoluted?

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2 quid is good

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I don't disagree with the criticism of how to differ a nobody from a somebody, but it was implied that crying tears were a true indicator of whether you had a heart or not.

I guess the difference is how different the nobody is to the actual person, and of course how much they remember about themselves, to the point where if they can be considered different entities than they "deserve" their own body. We're really not shown much of Organisation 13's previous selves, at least not enough to really figure it out. It feels like an inconsistency but it's been around so long I think people tend to overlook it
 

Alpha Baymax

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You know? I was going to say UX, but I can't deny anything said here.

But on my original point, all of that was made worse by this right here:

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Ventus being here just opened up a whole other can of worms. Up untill this point I think everything was a type "go with it and you'll be fine", but UX just introduces stuff upon stuff that makes it all so difficult to understand.
Birth by Sleep hinted at Ventus having a past life of value. The Xehanort reports and Ven's migraines were leading up to a revelation about who Ventus really is.
 

UsagiChan

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You know? I was going to say UX, but I can't deny anything said here.

But on my original point, all of that was made worse by this right here:

mqdefault.jpg


Ventus being here just opened up a whole other can of worms. Up untill this point I think everything was a type "go with it and you'll be fine", but UX just introduces stuff upon stuff that makes it all so difficult to understand.
Somewhat true but the real problem started with Marluxia not Ven, Why force characters who are not originally a keyblade welders to be involved in the story of the past and then tell us they were originally keyblade wielders themselves?

Alpha baymax is right about Ventus, Ven had foreshadowing of his past in birth by sleep, his station of awakening is empty with the exception of having the picture of the keyblade graveyard, he was also noted by Xehanort in his journal that him encountering Ventus was pre destined, I think I also saw many drop other hints of Ventus being from the Union X era but not really motivated to search for them, so I think the problems first started with Marluxia, you don’t need to reuse your old characters, you can just create new ones.
 

NEOFuddyDuddy

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I can recall when I was a wee lad when I first DDD: I probably had to play and/or sit thru theater mode soooo many times just to understand what the story was, and I was still confused. It was at this point where all the games' storylines converge and it required the player to be knowledgeable of the plot so far, so it was convoluted for me in that sense.
 

Katsagu

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Birth by Sleep hinted at Ventus having a past life of value. The Xehanort reports and Ven's migraines were leading up to a revelation about who Ventus really is.
I don't remember it foreshadowing his presence in an event that happened a century or more before the events of BBS that had become pretty much legend.

So much so everyone was pretty much flabbergasted when that happened. And of course the explanation is time travel. And because of that, Marluxia and Larxene followed the same boat, because if ventus can be there why not them? And now the foretellers are also in the present timeline, because if ventus can be, so can they. Luxu is the better handled out of all of them.

I don't know, things were simpler before they started tying everything to and making the legendary keyblade war important to present and future events in KH.

At least Xehanort time travel was limited to his lifespan. This type of thing just makes KH world building feel small, when everyone important a century ago is related to or literally is the same person on current events.

Somewhat true but the real problem started with Marluxia not Ven, Why force characters who are not originally a keyblade welders to be involved in the story of the past and then tell us they were originally keyblade wielders themselves?

Alpha baymax is right about Ventus, Ven had foreshadowing of his past in birth by sleep, his station of awakening is empty with the exception of having the picture of the keyblade graveyard, he was also noted by Xehanort in his journal that him encountering Ventus was pre destined, I think I also saw many drop other hints of Ventus being from the Union X era but not really motivated to search for them, so I think the problems first started with Marluxia, you don’t need to reuse your old characters, you can just create new ones.

Okay seeing all of that about ventus sure, the station of awakening specifically makes a compelling case. But then again, it's introducing time travel into the story that made it possible for the Marluxia case, so I still believe it started with that.
 
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Cumguardian69

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Thats not even the half of it...we are hyperfocused on time travel now but the true problem is we don't even know what or why the Keyblade War is a thing. At first it was a battle over the light of Kingdom Hearts (KH2, BBS), then it was a battle over the launch codes to a universe nuke (KH3), now it's a cylical battle between light and darkness that just sorta happens throughout the ages. So these time displaced characters exist in the current age because reasons, who then don't serve a purpose beyond being Sora-lite (Ven), Sora's minor enemies (Vanitas, larxene, marl), or Sora's plot coupon (Ephemer and co). And don't evem get me started on *that* since now we know Sora doesn't actually exist in KH anymore since he is in the realm of unreality (what the fuck)
 

the red monster

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KH2 with all the nobodies nonsense. i was confused as heck when i first played it.
 

UsagiChan

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I don't remember it foreshadowing his presence in an event that happened a century or more before the events of BBS that had become pretty much legend.

So much so everyone was pretty much flabbergasted when that happened. And of course the explanation is time travel. And because of that, Marluxia and Larxene followed the same boat, because if ventus can be there why not them? And now the foretellers are also in the present timeline, because if ventus can be, so can they. Luxu is the better handled out of all of them.

I don't know, things were simpler before they started tying everything to and making the legendary keyblade war important to present and future events in KH.

At least Xehanort time travel was limited to his lifespan. This type of thing just makes KH world building feel small, when everyone important a century ago is related to or literally is the same person on current events.



Okay seeing all of that about ventus sure, the station of awakening specifically makes a compelling case. But then again, it's introducing time travel into the story that made it possible for the Marluxia case, so I still believe it started with that.
I definitely do not disagree with you, and I actually agree that sending characters to the past opened a whole can of worms, but the thing I’m trying to make is that Ven unlike Marluxia has valid point to be from the era is Union X, Marluxia who we believed to be just a person who joined the organization and had 0 connection with the keyblade all of a sudden he and laraxene are keyblade wielders? It’s hard to believe,

I looked further into the hints about Ventus just now and I found two more reasons, It’s not my comment but I copied it

• Ventus station of awakening has no Faces and has the picture of keyblade graveyard, also the Keyblade graveyard is shaped like an X with all the keyblades surrounding the place, and Ventus is the X-blade, him being connected to the Keyblade graveyard is fitting

• Xehanort in reports said, meeting Ventus wasn’t ordinary but it was destiny

• Ventus backstory was never shown besides him having a connection to the keyblade graveyard

• the character that had [the rise of the Union] theme play with the most in birth by sleep is Ventus, this theme is associated with Union X, also I remember a quote from Vanitas telling Ven our Union wasn’t finished lmao, I know it wasn’t planned but Ven seem to get a pass unlike Marluxia who came outta nowhere and now he has a sister?
 

KudoTsurugi

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I definitely do not disagree with you, and I actually agree that sending characters to the past opened a whole can of worms, but the thing I’m trying to make is that Ven unlike Marluxia has valid point to be from the era is Union X, Marluxia who we believed to be just a person who joined the organization and had 0 connection with the keyblade all of a sudden he and laraxene are keyblade wielders? It’s hard to believe,

I looked further into the hints about Ventus just now and I found two more reasons, It’s not my comment but I copied it

• Ventus station of awakening has no Faces and has the picture of keyblade graveyard, also the Keyblade graveyard is shaped like an X with all the keyblades surrounding the place, and Ventus is the X-blade, him being connected to the Keyblade graveyard is fitting

• Xehanort in reports said, meeting Ventus wasn’t ordinary but it was destiny

• Ventus backstory was never shown besides him having a connection to the keyblade graveyard

• the character that had [the rise of the Union] theme play with the most in birth by sleep is Ventus, this theme is associated with Union X, also I remember a quote from Vanitas telling Ven our Union wasn’t finished lmao, I know it wasn’t planned but Ven seem to get a pass unlike Marluxia who came outta nowhere and now he has a sister?
They could’ve given any other explanation for any of that besides time travel. This is why retcons can be a nightmare if handled poorly. If they decided these were ancestors of these characters, then I’d let it slide, but I’m not giving them any if these are supposed to be the same characters we meet in the present day.
 

Katsagu

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I definitely do not disagree with you, and I actually agree that sending characters to the past opened a whole can of worms, but the thing I’m trying to make is that Ven unlike Marluxia has valid point to be from the era is Union X, Marluxia who we believed to be just a person who joined the organization and had 0 connection with the keyblade all of a sudden he and laraxene are keyblade wielders? It’s hard to believe,

I looked further into the hints about Ventus just now and I found two more reasons, It’s not my comment but I copied it

• Ventus station of awakening has no Faces and has the picture of keyblade graveyard, also the Keyblade graveyard is shaped like an X with all the keyblades surrounding the place, and Ventus is the X-blade, him being connected to the Keyblade graveyard is fitting

• Xehanort in reports said, meeting Ventus wasn’t ordinary but it was destiny

• Ventus backstory was never shown besides him having a connection to the keyblade graveyard

• the character that had [the rise of the Union] theme play with the most in birth by sleep is Ventus, this theme is associated with Union X, also I remember a quote from Vanitas telling Ven our Union wasn’t finished lmao, I know it wasn’t planned but Ven seem to get a pass unlike Marluxia who came outta nowhere and now he has a sister?
Yeah, Ventus was for sure a easier pill to swallow than Marluxia and Larxene for sure because of the things you mentioned. But as you said, Ventus was what set the precedent there for me, thus where I put my blame on haha

But I totally agree that the other two should have just not been there, as much as I like the Strelitzia -> Final Boss Marluxia nobody form theory.
 

Alpha Baymax

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Somewhat true but the real problem started with Marluxia not Ven, Why force characters who are not originally a keyblade welders to be involved in the story of the past and then tell us they were originally keyblade wielders themselves?

Alpha Baymax is right about Ventus, Ven had foreshadowing of his past in birth by sleep, his station of awakening is empty with the exception of having the picture of the keyblade graveyard, he was also noted by Xehanort in his journal that him encountering Ventus was pre destined, I think I also saw many drop other hints of Ventus being from the Union X era but not really motivated to search for them, so I think the problems first started with Marluxia, you don’t need to reuse your old characters, you can just create new ones.
There's a poetic irony with Marluxia being the antagonist of Chain of Memories. He wanted the power of Sora's Keyblade and meddles with his memories only to be a character who has lost his memories of being a Keyblade wielder.

Even ignoring that, it would have been a much worse idea to incorporate another original character in Lauriam/Marluxia's place. The cast of original characters is large enough as is, better to expand on him than to use that development on a new character.

I don't remember it foreshadowing his presence in an event that happened a century or more before the events of BBS that had become pretty much legend.

So much so everyone was pretty much flabbergasted when that happened. And of course the explanation is time travel. And because of that, Marluxia and Larxene followed the same boat, because if ventus can be there why not them? And now the foretellers are also in the present timeline, because if ventus can be, so can they. Luxu is the better handled out of all of them.

I don't know, things were simpler before they started tying everything to and making the legendary keyblade war important to present and future events in KH.

At least Xehanort time travel was limited to his lifespan. This type of thing just makes KH world building feel small, when everyone important a century ago is related to or literally is the same person on current events.

Okay seeing all of that about ventus sure, the station of awakening specifically makes a compelling case. But then again, it's introducing time travel into the story that made it possible for the Marluxia case, so I still believe it started with that.
X was developed after Dream Drop Distance and Dream Drop Distance introduced time travel so you have to hand it to Nomura for going all out with the lore of time travel and the technicalities of how it works.

Honestly, I understand your concerns about having pre-existing Kingdom Hearts characters be involved in a time period that has nothing to do with Sora but Sora is the central character of the franchise and plot points always goes back to him in some way or another.
 

kirabook

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I still don't see how BbS could've possibly convoluted the story? There's nothing convoluted about it so far as KH games go. It's super straight forward and the only questions really remaining after the game is "What's going to happen to these three characters"

You aren't left puzzling how to become a "keyblade master" or why there are more wielders. You either take a test to earn this seemingly meaningless title (even within the game itself) or an existing master just gives it to you. And there used to be even more people who wielded the keyblade, which makes sense, but majority of them are dead.

I know KH1 kinda heavily implied there was only 1, especially in the english dub. But by the time KH2 roles around, we've already got 5 people with a keyblade (Sora, Roxas, Riku, Mickey, Kairi). Isn't it obvious there would be more in the future and the past? There has never been "only one", not even in KH1.

The Ven/Vanitas thing is explained and resolved all within the same game and is no more convoluted than the heartless/nobody situation.

The unversed are no different than the heartless and nobodies either, they're just another type of monster based on emotion. This isn't completely explained I guess (but I'm pretty sure it's gonna be later I suppose) but it's still one note and resolved all within the game.

What else is convoluted about it other than their poor job at properly displaying their bond more throughout the game and pacing their time in the Disney worlds better? (probably due to technical limitations)

Compared that to say, DDD with the time travel stuff that people still try to piece together to this day to make it make sense or keep it consistent for the rest of the story (which I don't even think it really is). BbS has nothing on that.

In my opinion, I think the convolution started with KH2. Not AFTER, but during it. The "Ansem not Ansem" was just the start of how convoluted the writers were willing to go for the sake of shock and awe. Following that, every game has tried to do similar even more crazy "twists". By the time we hit DDD, the twist they decided on was time travel and that's when I feel it jumped the shark.

It's not that I hate time travel. But trying to put time travel into a story after the fact where it's not self contained (ala KH2 Timeless River doors) almost always ends badly. It's not like other stories haven't tried time travel before and made things more complicated than they needed to be. The Kingdom Hearts franchise would've been just fine if they stuck with the theme of data, worlds inside books/objects/computers, and replicas.


Also, about Ventus being a dandelion, me and a few others actually predicted he was a Dandelion before it was revealed in the story with no other evidence except things said in BbS and a random Key Art Nomura released with no explanation as to why Ven was hanging out with the UX crew and not the KH3 crew. There were hints that Ventus was more important than just BbS (especially with the whole Xblade stuff). Did Nomura plan that when he was writing BbS? I don't know. But he left himself breadcrumbs.
 
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UsagiChan

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Also, about Ventus being a dandelion, me and a few others actually predicted he was a Dandelion before it was revealed in the story with no other evidence except things said in BbS and a random Key Art Nomura released with no explanation as to why Ven was hanging out with the UX crew and not the KH3 crew. There were hints that Ventus was more important than just BbS (especially with the whole Xblade stuff). Did Nomura plan that when he was writing BbS? I don't know. But he left himself breadcrumbs.
I actually do remember this theory, fans claimed that Ventus was a dandelion for the simple reasons that he has connection to the keyblade graveyard and the X-blade, and also because we know nothing of his past, but I never really thought the theory will come true so kudos to those who called it before it happened.
 

darknessofheart

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Dream Drop Distance in my opinion. The whole time travel mechanic seemed really out of place and their own rules were never really properly fleshed out. Time travel becoming the foundation of the story at this point doesn't really help either. Before that, I feel there was at least a decent lead-in to a reveal and I feel KH2 and Birth by Sleep were both great games with well-told stories that were immensely satisfying to play because you could see where things connected or what they were referencing.

I think in one of the interviews with Nomura for DDD, he said he purposely made the story hard to understand. That I think is the problem right there. He shouldn't be going out of his way to make a story hard to understand or complicated; if it's a byproduct of him writing a story he loves, that's fine, but if his intention was to make things confusing for the sake of it then he might have just thrown things in without a real proper foundation.

I feel time travel is what is making things so convoluted, especially the rules. Sora traveled back in time in KH2 and, while that was briefly mentioned by the Riku replica in KH3, it was never really explained. Same thing with "you cannot change the things that are destined to happen." What exactly does that mean, cause now it's established that Xehanort's Heartless is the reason his younger self even began his journey to becoming a seeker of darkness. Seems like a pretty big move that altered the course of his destiny.

DDD had some decent reveals in terms of how the actions of Xehanort's Heartless and Xemnas were both aimed at a much larger, shared plan, and it helped to bring the rest of the spinoffs into the focus of the bigger picture, but I really wish time travel did not become such a huge staple at this point. It's being used almost as an excuse at this point to explain away things; Maleficent's return in KH2, the MoM disappearing, Ventus and other characters appearing in the main timeline, etc.
 

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So why wasn't the Timeless River rules applied to Xehanort's time travel? Could Nomura have forgotten that we've time traveled to Disney Castle's past? Is Timeless River not really the past but a parallel world to Disney Castle's past? Maybe it's something like the Sleeping Worlds from Dream Drop Distance where Sora met Jiminy and Pinocchio in Pranksters Paradise and the Disney Castle residents in Country of the Musketeers before they met him? The fact that the Sleeping Worlds in the past is established in the same game that explained the heart time travel makes it even weirder. I mean, Xemnas could have just came from the sleeping World That Never Was. The past Xehanorts could have had a Sleeping World which Master Xehanort would visit to recruit them into the Organization.
 

Sign

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So why wasn't the Timeless River rules applied to Xehanort's time travel? Could Nomura have forgotten that we've time traveled to Disney Castle's past? Is Timeless River not really the past but a parallel world to Disney Castle's past? Maybe it's something like the Sleeping Worlds from Dream Drop Distance where Sora met Jiminy and Pinocchio in Pranksters Paradise and the Disney Castle residents in Country of the Musketeers before they met him? The fact that the Sleeping Worlds in the past is established in the same game that explained the heart time travel makes it even weirder. I mean, Xemnas could have just came from the sleeping World That Never Was. The past Xehanorts could have had a Sleeping World which Master Xehanort would visit to recruit them into the Organization.
Because Merlin is just that powerful. Dark Repliku even calls it out in San Fransokyo that "a certain wizard Sora knows" doesn't have to play by the same rules they do.
 

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Because Merlin is just that powerful. Dark Repliku even calls it out in San Fransokyo that "a certain wizard Sora knows" doesn't have to play by the same rules they do.
Didn't Pete do it first?
 

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I would say BBS is less convoluted than Days definitely, since at least in BBS the Unversed and Vanitas/Ventus connection was easier to grasp once it was explained (whether it was good storytelling or a good choice to have them look like/connected to Sora is a different matter). The Terra and MX body/will shifting was somewhat convoluted but also easy to understand and didn't really get murky until KH3 with the Guardian reveal.

Days though, even as they explained how the memories between Roxas and Xion moved around, trading keyblades and comas, was just plain hard and tedious to keep up with; all the while retconing KH2/FM directly, which is it's bigger sin.
 
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