What's new

Welcome to Kingdom Hearts Insider

Join us now to get access to all our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, and so, so much more. It's also quick and totally free, so what are you waiting for?

Ask question

Ask Questions and Get Answers from Our Community

Ask a Mod

Ask Questions from your staff

Contact Staff

If you need additional information or have a concern please contact us.

  • Hello everybody! We have tons of new awards for the new year that can be requested through our Awards System thanks to Antifa Lockhart! Some are limited-time awards so go claim them before they are gone forever...

    CLICK HERE FOR AWARDS

At which point do you think the story of KH started to become convoluted?



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS

When did the plot become convoluted?

  • Kingdom Hearts 0.2 Birth by Sleep - A Fragmentary Passage

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Kingdom Hearts Back cover

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    63

SweetYetSalty

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2018
Messages
1,949
Reaction score
1,888
Points
113
Awards
11
Age
31
Birth By Sleep. Kingdom Hearts is still doing back flips to justify the changes this game made to the overall series. Lore wise the series almost did a soft reboot here. This is where Xehanort truly becomes a complete mess, the Mark of Mastery over explaining Keyblade lores and the inconsistent problems it created with how characters can obtain Keyblades. This is where the "Everyone gets a Keyblade" meme that many have a problem with really starts, I personally don't mind that though. This game introduces seven new wielders, and by now if you didn't have a Keyblade you were not a threat anymore. This is also created the Keyblade War which to this day plagues the series. Aqua has been trapped in this realm that Sora, Riku, and Mickey easily traverse in every game prior to this one, but always never run into her as they pass on by conveniently. I haven't even gotten into the Wayfinder trios influence on Sora, Riku, and Kairi and how it changes their characters but this is getting lentghy.

The other KH have their convoluted stuff too. KH2 with Organization XIII and Nobodies. Days with Xion's Replica story , and even CoM created Namine when they already had a magical girl connected to Sora in Kairi. But for me BBS is where the series got crazy for better and for worse. Games like DDD and the mobile games are a result of BBS.
 

UsagiChan

Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2020
Messages
39
Reaction score
12
Points
8
Awards
1
Birth By Sleep. Kingdom Hearts is still doing back flips to justify the changes this game made to the overall series. Lore wise the series almost did a soft reboot here. This is where Xehanort truly becomes a complete mess, the Mark of Mastery over explaining Keyblade lores and the inconsistent problems it created with how characters can obtain Keyblades. This is where the "Everyone gets a Keyblade" meme that many have a problem with really starts, I personally don't mind that though. This game introduces seven new wielders, and by now if you didn't have a Keyblade you were not a threat anymore. This is also created the Keyblade War which to this day plagues the series. Aqua has been trapped in this realm that Sora, Riku, and Mickey easily traverse in every game prior to this one, but always never run into her as they pass on by conveniently. I haven't even gotten into the Wayfinder trios influence on Sora, Riku, and Kairi and how it changes their characters but this is getting lentghy.

The other KH have their convoluted stuff too. KH2 with Organization XIII and Nobodies. Days with Xion's Replica story , and even CoM created Namine when they already had a magical girl connected to Sora in Kairi. But for me BBS is where the series got crazy for better and for worse. Games like DDD and the mobile games are a result of BBS.
Best explanation, the time travel, the everyone getting a keyblade, the Data, all of those started with games before the mobile game, the convoluted plot started with the games that came after kh2.

Edit: I actually came to warm up to everyone having a keyblade cause it remind me of miraculous ladybug and cat noir, with how everyone can have their own miraculous now.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
224
Reaction score
15
Points
20
Awards
4
Location
US
I notice KH1 isn't even on here. Let's not pretend like KH1 didn't have its moments of confusing plot points.

I started the series with KH2 as my first ever KH game...I was confused at parts but overall it was pretty understandable IMO. KH isn't really that complicated honestly. Time travel gets iffy, but meh.

I think the biggest issue the series has faced though is just the fact that it's jumped around so many different platforms. Yes, they remedied that with the remixes, but the damage had already been done. But they're "kind of" doing it again with the mobile games. I have no desire to play a KH mobile game, so I have no idea what's been going on in that game, so hopefully they do some sort of rerelease for fans like me. Otherwise, that's where things will start to get murky.
 

Sign

trapped in revamp hell
Staff member
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Messages
17,521
Reaction score
1,994
Points
115
Awards
36
I notice KH1 isn't even on here. Let's not pretend like KH1 didn't have its moments of confusing plot points.

I started the series with KH2 as my first ever KH game...I was confused at parts but overall it was pretty understandable IMO. KH isn't really that complicated honestly. Time travel gets iffy, but meh.

I think the biggest issue the series has faced though is just the fact that it's jumped around so many different platforms. Yes, they remedied that with the remixes, but the damage had already been done. But they're "kind of" doing it again with the mobile games. I have no desire to play a KH mobile game, so I have no idea what's been going on in that game, so hopefully they do some sort of rerelease for fans like me. Otherwise, that's where things will start to get murky.
Some of the things mentioned in this thread, such as Ansem not being Ansem, Nomura had already been musing about since KH1 according the Ultimania. Those elements may have taken some time to fully manifest but I think we were doomed from the start lol
 

Vulpes XIII

Active member
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Messages
403
Reaction score
248
Points
43
Awards
12
Age
24
Location
Castle Oblivion
I notice KH1 isn't even on here. Let's not pretend like KH1 didn't have its moments of confusing plot points.
I was actually going to put KH1 on the poll because every game does have it confusing plot points and I agree that KH1 did have some but then I realised there wasn’t enough space on the poll and something had to be left off as I didn’t think KH1 and Chain of Memories should share a spot and I didn’t think it would fit well to put it with any other game either so I figured since it was the first game it would probably be fine to leave off. Judging by the poll I should of probably removed Chain of Memories and gave KH1 it‘s spot. Oh well, too late now to change it lol
 

Zul

Joined
Oct 15, 2008
Messages
2,108
Reaction score
107
Points
65
Awards
5
I voted KH2(technically it started with CoM) for adding too many characters and KH3D for needlessly complicating the mythos.

Ansem being an imposter was not that complicated at all imo.

Another major factor was that important facts were in scattered Nomura interviews instead of in the games themselves. The series would be far less convoluted if there was some kind of developer commentary archive unlocked in the game's journal after completion, one that explicitly stated if an earlier lore-fact is now no longer true.

(imo) Scattered information and a bloated mythos is one of the main problems with trying to speculate on the series these days, and too many characters is one of the core problems with the series itself.
 

2 quid is good

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 27, 2018
Messages
815
Reaction score
718
Points
93
Awards
13
Location
airbourne
A lot of people will point to 3D, and I'm not going to entirely dispute that, but I think even with as silly as the time travel was (I don't think it was necessary at all) it wasn't difficult to understand, in my opinion up until that point nothing in KH had been difficult to understand except for why Namine had a weird personality in KH2 compared to her other appearances and how Xemnas really didn't seem like the same character at all from KH2 to KH3D.

Convolution is when something becomes obfuscated and difficult to understand right? Then for me, that starts with Unchained. I don't remember too much from Chi but iirc it felt fairly simple and straightforward to me, I even enjoyed it somewhat, but then you get the Unchained realm, dandelions, the book of prophecies, the black box, modern day characters suddenly being the distant past - for no good reason at all - and some of them with drastically different personalities it seems. I don't like that at all, any of that, and the fact that the game with all these concepts thrown together instead of progression is where it seems the direction of future games will take their lead from, doesn't inspire me with confidence at all. Maybe the rot did set in from KH2, but honestly, 3D far and away takes the candle just out of sheer mismanagement of certain characters and unnecessary concepts, and Unchained compounds on that to make the situation so much worse. Rather than KH3 being used to course correct, it felt like it was held hostage to finish what these two games started.
 

Katsagu

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
360
Reaction score
366
Points
65
Awards
5
Birth By Sleep. Kingdom Hearts is still doing back flips to justify the changes this game made to the overall series. Lore wise the series almost did a soft reboot here. This is where Xehanort truly becomes a complete mess, the Mark of Mastery over explaining Keyblade lores and the inconsistent problems it created with how characters can obtain Keyblades. This is where the "Everyone gets a Keyblade" meme that many have a problem with really starts, I personally don't mind that though. This game introduces seven new wielders, and by now if you didn't have a Keyblade you were not a threat anymore. This is also created the Keyblade War which to this day plagues the series. Aqua has been trapped in this realm that Sora, Riku, and Mickey easily traverse in every game prior to this one, but always never run into her as they pass on by conveniently. I haven't even gotten into the Wayfinder trios influence on Sora, Riku, and Kairi and how it changes their characters but this is getting lentghy.

The other KH have their convoluted stuff too. KH2 with Organization XIII and Nobodies. Days with Xion's Replica story , and even CoM created Namine when they already had a magical girl connected to Sora in Kairi. But for me BBS is where the series got crazy for better and for worse. Games like DDD and the mobile games are a result of BBS.
You know? I was going to say UX, but I can't deny anything said here.

But on my original point, all of that was made worse by this right here:

mqdefault.jpg


Ventus being here just opened up a whole other can of worms. Up untill this point I think everything was a type "go with it and you'll be fine", but UX just introduces stuff upon stuff that makes it all so difficult to understand.
 

AegisXIII

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 23, 2017
Messages
818
Reaction score
541
Points
93
Awards
2
Definitely DDD.
Let's throw you time travel concepts in less than one minute. And of course, these concepts will be developed in 10 years.
 

Sean Wheeler

Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2021
Messages
48
Reaction score
15
Points
8
Awards
2
Dream Drop Distance. Not for the time travel because KH2 had the door to Timeless River but the reveal that Nobodies DO have hearts. Then what makes them Nobodies? Was Axel already Lea when he sacrificed himself in KH2? If they get recompleted, would they have two hearts? A Nobody regrowing a heart just raises way too many questions for me. I thought a Nobody's emotions come from the brain like ours do. The heart's relation to emotion was a huge misconception because it's job is to pump blood while the brain is the control center that has your memories and emotions. Emotions are neural, not cardiac. The characters always looked like fools talking about hearts as brains. Just look at how Naminé "Smashed Riku Replica's heart," it was his head that flashed, not his chest. Well, Nobodies have been confusing about their "existence." If they don't exist, how can they create problems for Sora? Sora didn't make them up because everyone else can see them too and they have their own lives. So to say Nobodies don't exist is breaking the fourth wall to reference they were created for a video game. But them being the body while the Heartless were the hearts does help explain why hearts fly to the sky when Heartless are slain when Leon clearly said Heartless don't have hearts and an artificial heart was created in Halloween Town for a Heartless. But a Nobody shouldn't have a heart. If Xemnas really lied to the Organization about their motives for Kingdom Hearts, why didn't he drop the act at the final confrontation when he was the last of the Organization? Sora was trying to stop him from a fake goal, so couldn't he tell his real plan? Or could he not because he already went to the future and fought him in 3D and KH3 and then went back to KH2 for his final fate before being recompleted as Master Xehanort? And the whole heart time-travel thing, well it's not the time-travel that's the problem. It's the way they explained it as the heart time traveling into replica bodies. Why couldn't Xehanort have used a Timeless River door? If a time travel movie gets featured as a world in a future Kingdom Hearts game, I'm going to ask why Xehanort didn't use the technology from that movie. Oh and Xehanort has displayed the ability to rewind time and cast a Stopza spell. Yet he needs to make replicas of his past selves? He can make his own duplicates in battle without Vexen's help. I'm sure he should be able to time travel without that convoluted plan. Are the other Xehanorts really time travelers or just clones? When Roxas came back, his heart came out of Sora at that moment in KH3. He wasn't taken out of 358/2 Days. I'm sure the other Xehanorts are just clones. Otherwise if they were really time travelers, wouldn't that mean Ansem and Xemnas were already beaten in Kingdom Hearts III before they were beaten in KH1 and KH2 respectively? Their dialogue in KH3 seem to imply their defeat in the original games already happened to them. I can get by the original Organization members returning as they were recompleted and then turned back into Nobodies to join the new Organization, but the past Xehanorts, after he stole Ansem's name, lied about Nobodies not having hearts and constantly tricked Terra in BBS, he doesn't seem to be an honest enough man to trust as a reliable source. Maybe the past Xehanorts in KH3 are just clones with a part of his heart put in them. And Terranort could be Terra brought back from Xehanort's recompletion and he possessed him again.
 

Willow A113

Active member
Joined
Dec 1, 2020
Messages
551
Reaction score
248
Points
43
Awards
26
Age
16
Location
į'ʍ ɾìցհէ ҍҽհìղժ վօմ... Ͳմɾղ ąɾօմղժ...
Dream Drop Distance. Not for the time travel because KH2 had the door to Timeless River but the reveal that Nobodies DO have hearts. Then what makes them Nobodies? Was Axel already Lea when he sacrificed himself in KH2? If they get recompleted, would they have two hearts? A Nobody regrowing a heart just raises way too many questions for me. I thought a Nobody's emotions come from the brain like ours do. The heart's relation to emotion was a huge misconception because it's job is to pump blood while the brain is the control center that has your memories and emotions. Emotions are neural, not cardiac. The characters always looked like fools talking about hearts as brains. Just look at how Naminé "Smashed Riku Replica's heart," it was his head that flashed, not his chest. Well, Nobodies have been confusing about their "existence." If they don't exist, how can they create problems for Sora? Sora didn't make them up because everyone else can see them too and they have their own lives. So to say Nobodies don't exist is breaking the fourth wall to reference they were created for a video game. But them being the body while the Heartless were the hearts does help explain why hearts fly to the sky when Heartless are slain when Leon clearly said Heartless don't have hearts and an artificial heart was created in Halloween Town for a Heartless. But a Nobody shouldn't have a heart. If Xemnas really lied to the Organization about their motives for Kingdom Hearts, why didn't he drop the act at the final confrontation when he was the last of the Organization? Sora was trying to stop him from a fake goal, so couldn't he tell his real plan? Or could he not because he already went to the future and fought him in 3D and KH3 and then went back to KH2 for his final fate before being recompleted as Master Xehanort? And the whole heart time-travel thing, well it's not the time-travel that's the problem. It's the way they explained it as the heart time traveling into replica bodies. Why couldn't Xehanort have used a Timeless River door? If a time travel movie gets featured as a world in a future Kingdom Hearts game, I'm going to ask why Xehanort didn't use the technology from that movie. Oh and Xehanort has displayed the ability to rewind time and cast a Stopza spell. Yet he needs to make replicas of his past selves? He can make his own duplicates in battle without Vexen's help. I'm sure he should be able to time travel without that convoluted plan. Are the other Xehanorts really time travelers or just clones? When Roxas came back, his heart came out of Sora at that moment in KH3. He wasn't taken out of 358/2 Days. I'm sure the other Xehanorts are just clones. Otherwise if they were really time travelers, wouldn't that mean Ansem and Xemnas were already beaten in Kingdom Hearts III before they were beaten in KH1 and KH2 respectively? Their dialogue in KH3 seem to imply their defeat in the original games already happened to them. I can get by the original Organization members returning as they were recompleted and then turned back into Nobodies to join the new Organization, but the past Xehanorts, after he stole Ansem's name, lied about Nobodies not having hearts and constantly tricked Terra in BBS, he doesn't seem to be an honest enough man to trust as a reliable source. Maybe the past Xehanorts in KH3 are just clones with a part of his heart put in them. And Terranort could be Terra brought back from Xehanort's recompletion and he possessed him again.
Paragraphs, please. I wanted to read it, but I couldn't bring myself to do so with it bunched together like that.
 

Sean Wheeler

Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2021
Messages
48
Reaction score
15
Points
8
Awards
2
Paragraphs, please. I wanted to read it, but I couldn't bring myself to do so with it bunched together like that.
Sorry, I ramble a lot like that.
Basically, Dream Drop Distance's twist about Nobody's regrowing hearts is dumb because it pretty much means they're already whole and it ruins the concept of Nobodies. And Xehanort's way of time travel with hearts and replicas seems overly convoluted when you remember the door to Timeless River and I'm suspecting that the past Xehanorts like Ansem and Xemnas aren't time travelers but just clones.
 

Alpha Baymax

On a scale of α to ζ.
Joined
Sep 5, 2015
Messages
4,643
Reaction score
567
Points
114
Awards
23
Age
25
Location
United Kingdom
Everything that was released post-KHII really.
I disagree, Kingdom Hearts II was the game that started all of the narrative convolutions.
  • A large cast of original characters with unresolved backstories.
  • A bunch of new terminology and concepts for the franchise.
  • Unexplained narrative elements that can only be explained by playing a handheld Kingdom Hearts game.
For as nostalgic as Kingdom Hearts II is, it's undoubtedly the game that started the reputation for what Kingdom Hearts is as a franchise narratively speaking. Even Chain of Memories is an isolated experience because Sora, Donald and Goofy lose their memories and Riku returning is a plot twist for Kingdom Hearts II.
 

Elysium

Villain by Necessity
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
3,292
Reaction score
959
Points
114
Awards
34
I notice KH1 isn't even on here. Let's not pretend like KH1 didn't have its moments of confusing plot points.
Confusing and convoluted aren't the same thing, although they can overlap. I think of convoluted as veering towards "jump the shark" territory, because it's often something stupid or unnecessary that isn't built up and only done for shock value.
 

AdrianXXII

Dyslexic rambler
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
2,815
Reaction score
938
Points
115
Awards
15
Location
Switzerland
Honestly, I'd say it started with CoM or KH2, with how much they started to retcon and how many of the bad habits first developed this way. Redefining what Heartless are, changing the Keyblade's lore and making the Disney Worlds more filery. It wasn't too hard to follow or convoluted, but this is where things became less straightforward and easy to follow.

I think it really didn't being to go off the rails to the point where the established rules don't really matter until DDD. That was the turning point in my opinion. It's here, where all the bad habits became hard to ignore and the established rules didn't seem to matter anymore. Despite getting a lot of time dedicated to explaining them.
 

Sean Wheeler

Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2021
Messages
48
Reaction score
15
Points
8
Awards
2
Nobodies having hearts was absolutely hinted throughout KH2, and the idea that its purpose is to "pump blood" in a fantasy game all about how hearts are the source of everything apparently doesn't wash super well
Nobodies acting like they have hearts in KH2 was explained as them remembering how to feel. Then again, I guess since Chain of Memories stated that memories are a part of the heart, that explanation of them faking emotions from memories of when they were human falls apart when you realize they lost the part that contains those memories. But if Nobodies have hearts, what distinguishes them from their human selves? Why do they have to die again to be recompleted if they're already complete? It's shocking that the villain of my next book (after publishing my current one) is more of a Nobody than the original Nobodies of Kingdom Hearts.

The villain of The Flying Boy is a multiverse conquering witch called Maxy. She is a version of Amy Simpson from the lost universe of Verse-666. She called herself Amy X to distinguish herself from the other Amy Simpsons in the multiverse, and then scrambled her name to create the "Maxy" identity which she would say is short for "Maximum Overlord." And she has no heart because hearts didn't exist in Verse-666. Humans of Verse-666 survived on magic which is more prominent on that world than the sci-fi mainstream world of Verse-617861 where fairies are tiny Kryptonian-like aliens with wings and dust that don't believe in magic. And because Maxy has destroyed her universe and everything that doesn't exist in one world would always exist somewhere in the multiverse (Martians, ghosts, souls, the afterlife, the Plastoids Katie Elaz made up as a secret identity cover story, and even copyrighted fictional characters), Maxy doesn't really exist. And she wears a black coat and has glowing orange eyes. Yep, I've got a magic-wielding world-traveler with no heart, orange eyes, a black coat, an anagram with an X and she doesn't exist.
 

Cumguardian69

Well-known member
Joined
May 23, 2020
Messages
665
Reaction score
293
Points
63
Awards
2
^that's ultimately the problem with every Mobody except for Roxas. If Axel has a regrown heart, but he's literally Lea but with purple tear drop makeup on, then what functionally makes him different from Lea? The only thing that does is that he gets to get killed twice. But this being a Disney game and KH3 having happened already, we know this doesn't even matter because anyone can just power of asspulls their way into saving whoever got killed, and eventually we will learn of a way to rescue someone who power of asspull'd themselves into Unreality.

So again. Nobodies:

•Can be killed twice - once as a Nobody and again as a Somebody.

•Basically are their previous selves with one known exception (Roxas)

•Can use corridors of darkness and the realm between at will

Why would you ever be anything except for a Nobody? With the exception of Roxas of course.
 

Sean Wheeler

Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2021
Messages
48
Reaction score
15
Points
8
Awards
2
And if they turn back into a Nobody after being recompleted like the returning Organization members, they can be killed again and again like Kenny McCormick from South Park. Basically you could keep losing your heart to become immortal.
 
shape1
shape2
shape3
shape4
shape5
shape6
Top