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At which point do you think the story of KH started to become convoluted?



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When did the plot become convoluted?

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Vulpes XIII

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The Kingdom Hearts series has come out with many games over the years and along with it many new characters and concepts have been introduced to the plot as well and at some point the story started to be known as convoluted. So I’m curious at which game do you think the plot started to become hard to follow and what do you think caused it? Was it the introduction of certain characters or certain plot elements?

In my opinion I would say the plot first started to become convoluted at Dream Drop Distance with the introduction of time travel and it’s rules and I think this plot point that was already a bit hard to follow was made worse with Union X. What does everyone else think?
 

Zettaflare

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I'd say KH started to become convoluted after KH2 starting with 358 2 Days and BBS. It started with the introduction of a fourteenth Organization member and things such as how Ventus resembled Roxas and Vanitas looking like Sora.

Not to mention Apprentice nort really being a result of body snatching from a different Xehanort.
 

Sign

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I guess Days due to how much they had to bend over backwards to justify what went on in that game, but DDD was really the point of no return.
 

palizinhas

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I went with DDD and X because they're the most annoyingly convoluted to me, especially the latter. But dishonorable mention to 0.2 for making a canon explanation for Mickey not wearing a shirt in kh1.
 

redcrown

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Props to Chain of Memories for being complex but not convoluted.

I would say KH2 started it with the Not Ansem and data heart moon, then Days and BBS continued it, and the ending of DDD escalated it to true insanity.
 

Elysium

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KH2 is the game that smashed all the rules up to that point and restart, so that one. You'd think KH1 was a game that bombed and only got a sequel through crowd-sourced fundraising fifteen years later for how out-of-step 2 was from 1.
 

Raz

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Ansem is not Ansem set the precedent but at least Sora and company reacted to the news like the audience would. That made it easier to swallow and, imo, it worked.

Birth by Sleep built off of previously established lore. Days wrote itself into a corner with Xion but at least the explanation for nobody remembering her makes sense.

The series became too complicated for me with the time travel and Young Xehanort and DDD more generally.
 

KudoTsurugi

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Honourable mention to 3D, but at least they established some rules for their time travel. Union Cross is where it went off the rails for me. Not X/Unchained X[chi], just Union Cross
 

Soldier

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Time Travel in DDD, I don't care if you have clearly established rules and time magic that the enemy can abuse in a boss fight (here's looking at you Young Xehanort) if you even THINK about implicating it in some way, there's no going back. That's why stories that incorporate time travel elements are so tough to nail down, because the idea behind it is that it can be easily abused in the wrong hands, and what do you know, in KH IT WAS. Ansem is not Ansem I can understand, plenty of characters in media go under aliases/commit identity fraud. But time travel is where I draw the line. Before that came into play it was a clear cut story about some kids on an island that want to see the outside world, and they do.
 

Dark Rot

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KH2, of course. As a kid, I was like, wtf is going on?? Xemnas??? It changed everything, and set the standard for confounding storytelling going forward, though I think it did it best.

I don't relate to the thinking that DDD made anything more complicated. If anything, it just pressed pause on the story. Yeah the dream-within-a-dream thing could have been better depicted, but the time travel thing was just an excuse to revive past villains. Kind of cheap, but it didn't convolute or really change anything. In fact, it basically left the story open so that they could have hypothetically done literally anything with KH3. My only problem with time travel in KH is that they introduced it, then never did anything cool with it, like let Sora travel to the distant past or future.
 

Rodin

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Somewhere between 2 and DDD.

2 has its problems but it's mostly down to pacing and execution. It's most interesting story elements already before the game and you don't get to knowing it till the last quarter off the game. Get to it faster and you would've solved it.

Days and Coded are not convoluted just unnecessary. If you wanna bring Roxas back, just go do it. I didn't need a whole other game as setup.

So it's down to BBS and DDD. You could make the argument for either and you'd be right.

I'd chose DDD personally.
 
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Cumguardian69

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The plot was never cOnvOlutED. Never. It just added more and more stuff that was ultimately irrelevant to certain characters and failed to make the existing cast aware of crucial past events.

Take DDD for example. Sora and Riku are supposed to be training to be closer to the level of MX. HOWEVER
 

disney233

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I'd say KH2 planted the seeds with the Ansem plot twist. After KH2, the seeds grew and grew into this tall and needless fluff that we have today.
 

RonaldPoe

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I love Kingdom Hearts as a series ever since I first played it near the end of 2003. However I think ALL the choices are wrong. My choice would be Hollow Bastion in KH1. The story was always a little unusual and building itself up but it didn't seem too confusing. Then it was revealed that Sora's keyblade was meant for Riku (though that often gets ignored) and that Maleficent (a classic Disney Villain who was built up as the main villain) was being manipulated by Ansem (someone thought to be a heroic figure).

While Kingdom Hearts has had numerous plot twists that make this look absolutely tame (3D's time travel, X's plot, several things involving Xehanort, Xigbar being Luxu, Diz being the real Ansem, ect), this was still a big deal and blew my 10 year old mind. In hindsight it was the first sign of the insane direction KH would take.

I'm one of those fans that mostly understands KH's story. I feel it's best to expect the insane plot twists and just enjoy the ride (I've thought this since 3D). I think all we've learned by now how hard Nomura is to predict ...
 

UsagiChan

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I genuinely believe All the mess started after kh2, it’s those games that came after kh2 that are mostly the reason to blame for the convoluted plot, but the ones To blame the most are BBS and DDD, I would have also included Coded because of the data stuff but actually the data plot originated from kh2 and not coded, also other titles like 358/2days Union X and 0.2 fragmentary passage seem to also have their fair share of convoluted plot, but not as convoluted as bbs and ddd.

• Birth by sleep introduced the so called true villain, And the game takes place in the past and revolves around the 3 new unknown main characters, and the game is also the reason why the keyblade nowadays is given to anyone

• Dream drop distance introduced time travel
 
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Hedginka

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Unchained. The thing about DDD is while it takes several KH Wiki reads to understand the time travel lore, I can still at least follow what's happening on a good enough level. You can pretty comfortably summarise the game's plot as a young version of Xehanort using time travel to bring 12 other versions of himself together to fight a battle. Obviously, there's more to it than that, but it doesn't hurt my brain like it does to other fans. Granted, whether or not time travel was a good decision to begin with is up to you, but being a good story decision and being convoluted are two separate things.

But then Unchained happened and time travel became even more maddening, characters got retconned in irritating manners, the term 'data' started to really get on my nerves with how much it's used to explain plot points, a character named 'Darkness' got introduced, prophecies became a thing in the series for some reason and I'm saying all this as someone who doesn't even really keep up with the game anymore. But it was the one where I drew the line.

Also, whenever someone says KH2 made the series too complicated, I feel like the world's most intelligent person. Because I genuinely didn't, don't and will never understand what makes it so difficult for some to follow. Is Ansem being an impostor really that diabolical? To me, all the information that game lays out to the player is relatively simple to keep up with. Not easy, necessarily, but nothing too strenuous. The worst it gets is the data Twilight Town. And even that isn't too bad for me.
 
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