Ariel Not Being a Princess of Heart

[Ventus_]

Vanilla = original; referring to the non-Final Mix versions.

Gotcha.
See I am confused myself because the report that I quoted which vaguely mentioned Kairi was called Ansem's Report 11 but the first of the 'Secret Reports' which I'd found listed at the DestinyIslands.com link was also called Ansem's Report 11 but pertained to events from Days and the one mentioning Kairi was not there at all(I'd quoted it from a different source). So I'm thinking DestinyIslands.com messed something up or I don't know...

 

[KeybladeGuy]

Ariel wasn't a PoH because she can't survive out of water without Ursula's dark magic. - Me, telling non-KH fans why

 

[Ventus_]

Ariel wasn't a PoH because she can't survive out of water without Ursula's dark magic. - Me, telling non-KH fans why

Uh define survive? If you mean breathe, she can. In the film she came to the surface many times, lingered even with no ill effects:
1.) To visit scuttle and learn about the Dinglehopper (love that word XD)
2.) To spy on Eric's birthday bash aboard a ship.

Even a non-KH player would know that.

About Ursula's magic that is what we are discussing should have occurred.

 

[blksabbath74]

Looking back on things, I think they probably made the decision to include Alice over an official Disney Princess specifically so that Kair wasn't the odd one out. Otherwise, Kairi would be the only example of a Princess of Heart who is not a Disney Princess.

If it was simply a matter of a conflict between Ariel being a party member or a Princess of Heart, they had at least two other officially recognized Disney Princesses available in Mulan and Pocahontas.

 

[Ventus_]

Looking back on things, I think they probably made the decision to include Alice over an official Disney Princess specifically so that Kair wasn't the odd one out. Otherwise, Kairi would be the only example of a Princess of Heart who is not a Disney Princess.

Excellent observation and a plausible suggestion.

If it was simply a matter of a conflict between Ariel being a party member or a Princess of Heart, they had at least two other officially recognized Disney Princesses available in Mulan and Pocahontas.

Though officially recognized by Disney as a princess, Mulan is not LITERALLY one. That has actually kind of bothered me, to consider her a PoH would be one thing but for Disney themselves to call a non-princess a princess? Really? >_< I do however enjoy the film and her world in KH2. I had grown quite fond of the Twin Dragons Keyblade you are awarded for sealing it.

Now Pocahontas slipped my mind perhaps because I am not the biggest fan there but I think that would be been interesting.

 

[KeybladeGuy]

Uh define survive? If you mean breathe, she can. In the film she came to the surface many times, lingered even with no ill effects:
1.) To visit scuttle and learn about the Dinglehopper (love that word XD)
2.) To spy on Eric's birthday bash aboard a ship.

Even a non-KH player would know that.

About Ursula's magic that is what we are discussing should have occurred.

She would die by drying up after an extended period of time like Most sea creatures. Considering how long Maleficent held Belle, Cinderella, Aurora, and the others, she'd be dead by then.

 

[Ventus_]

She would die by drying up after an extended period of time like Most sea creatures. Considering how long Maleficent held Belle, Cinderella, Aurora, and the others, she'd be dead by then.

Perhaps but that is why Ursula could give her legs.

 

[kuraudoVII]

Excellent observation and a plausible suggestion.



Though officially recognized by Disney as a princess, Mulan is not LITERALLY one. That has actually kind of bothered me, to consider her a PoH would be one thing but for Disney themselves to call a non-princess a princess? Really? >_< I do however enjoy the film and her world in KH2. I had grown quite fond of the Twin Dragons Keyblade you are awarded for sealing it.

Now Pocahontas slipped my mind perhaps because I am not the biggest fan there but I think that would be been interesting.

Mulan being recognized as a princess by Disney was solely for marketing purposes. Same deal for the more "princess-y" outfits that they had for Merida.

Back to the topic of pureness, the princesses are described as beings of pure light. That does not mean that they have to be the most virtuous in order to be composed of pure light. While the series has used these terms and connected them to people for purposes of conflict, it has also shown that ultimately, light and darkness are merely glorified elements. The best examples I can muster would be Riku being able to control his darkness and fight for the light in contrast to Roxas who was ordered by Organization XIII to use his Keyblade and his powers of light to fight for the darkness. Now as to why this point is relevant? Well, the deciding factors for the princesses don't necessarily have to go by virtue; they just have to have their hearts filled with light and devoid of darkness. With that in mind, it makes sense that we can have PoHs like Snow White and Aurora (and possibly Cinderella if they decide not to incorporate elements of Cinderella 3 into Kingdom Hearts III) alongside more proactive ones like Jasmine and Belle as well as the precocious ones ala Alice and Kairi.

 

[Ruran]

Excellent observation and a plausible suggestion.



Though officially recognized by Disney as a princess, Mulan is not LITERALLY one. That has actually kind of bothered me, to consider her a PoH would be one thing but for Disney themselves to call a non-princess a princess? Really? >_<

Now Pocahontas slipped my mind perhaps because I am not the biggest fan there but I think that would be been interesting.

To be fair "Disney Princess" is just a brand name and much like "Princess of Heart" it's just a fancy title because all the characters are girls. Although, it is weird that Mulan is the odd one out since the last time I checked, she's the only Disney Princess who isn't actual royalty. I think they considered Alice and Tinker Bell as Princesses at one point, but decided against it because Disney set certain criteria of which they didn't abide by. There also aren't many animated feature Disney films where the lead girl ISN'T a princess anyway so *shrugs*

I somehow forgot Pocahontas as well. Maybe it's because of racial issues, but KH generally seems to try and stay away from Disney's interpretation of Native Americans. Their depictions haven't been known to be the most sensitive. The closest we've gotten was seeing the Native American village in Neverland, but only once and suspeciously vacant.

 

[blksabbath74]

Excellent observation and a plausible suggestion.



Though officially recognized by Disney as a princess, Mulan is not LITERALLY one. That has actually kind of bothered me, to consider her a PoH would be one thing but for Disney themselves to call a non-princess a princess? Really? >_< I do however enjoy the film and her world in KH2. I had grown quite fond of the Twin Dragons Keyblade you are awarded for sealing it.

Now Pocahontas slipped my mind perhaps because I am not the biggest fan there but I think that would be been interesting.

That's a good point. I wonder why they decided to recognize Mulan as a Disney Princess when she was, both 'historically' and in the films, NOT a princess by birth or marriage? If Mulan can be a Disney Princess, why NOT Alice or Esmerelda?

Now, of course, both Mulan and Pocahontas would have been MORE difficult than Ariel or any of the PoH to kidnap (though certainly not impossible).

Now I think they've added Tiana, Rapunzel, Merida, Anna and Elsa.

But yes, if not for Alice, ALL the other PoH would have been Disney Princesses, making Kairi's inclusion more of an aberration, so I think Alice was included specifically for that reason.

Did anyone else notice that Flynn and Rapunzel appeared at the end of Frozen at that reception?

 

[Max]

Ariel wasn't a PoH because she can't survive out of water without Ursula's dark magic. - Me, telling non-KH fans why

What? Do you remember the end of the film The Little Mermaid?

 

[DarkAegyptiacus]

What? Do you remember the end of the film The Little Mermaid?

Whales can breathe out of water too, but cannot do so for long as their skin dries out; it's possible Mer-people had a similar issue too but are still capable of breathing air & water as well as being able to be out of the water for a limited amount of time.

That being said, it was only through this topic now that I've realized Kairi wasn't a true princess, but that certainly makes it easier to take Alice as one. If only they had one other POH though that wasn't a true princess, because it still feels a little too much like that.

 

[Max]

Whales can breathe out of water too, but cannot do so for long as their skin dries out; it's possible Mer-people had a similar issue too but are still capable of breathing air & water as well as being able to be out of the water for a limited amount of time.

But she wasn't just out of the water for a limited time, I'm pretty sure Triton used his power to allow Ariel to stay human if she wished, and then she up and married what's-his-face. The end.

 

[Ventus_]

Did anyone else notice that Flynn and Rapunzel appeared at the end of Frozen at that reception?

No way! I've only seen it once though. Once I get the DVD I am totally looking for that!

But she wasn't just out of the water for a limited time, I'm pretty sure Triton used his power to allow Ariel to stay human if she wished, and then she up and married what's-his-face. The end.

Correct. In the end Triton decided to put his pride aside for his daughter's happiness and used his triton to make her human permanently.

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

Rapunzel and Flynn are closer to the beginning actually, when they arrive for Elsa's coronation.

I just don't get it, you guys. The only reason I can see this really bothering anyone is because of semantics. It's not like all of the Disney Princesses were included in the 7 PoL anyway, like it's been pointed out. And, really, the "princesses" who are actually born princesses are in the minority of the group anyway.

Jasmine - born a princess
Snow White - born a princess but treated like a slave
Aurora - born a princess but raised as a woodland peasant
then you have
Cinderella - born a gentleman's daughter, married into royalty AFTER coming in contact with the Keyblade, interestingly enough
Belle - peasant girl, falls in love with a prince but never technically marries him, and isn't a princess in any of her Kingdom Hearts appearances.
Alice - well-to-do girl probably living in oxford
Kairi - young girl living in radiant garden, not royal as far as anyone knows.

It just seems like a silly reason to get too upset. There are plenty of other disney princesses/royalty/people with parents who are positions of government rank that Sora's met who aren't princesses of heart as well. Ariel's sisters, Mulan, Minnie, Elizabeth, Nala.

Unless someone asks Nomura why, we may never know. (Though, I stand by what I said. Game mechanics/not coming up with a reason that didn't seem hamfisted/ and Alice's popularity in Japan)

 

[blksabbath74]

No way! I've only seen it once though. Once I get the DVD I am totally looking for that!



Correct. In the end Triton decided to put his pride aside for his daughter's happiness and used his triton to make her human permanently.

In one of the sequels (watched Little Mermaid, Return to the Sea, and Ariel's Beginning over the weekend with my daughter, who unlocked Atlantica Saturday in KH1) Ariel remained human for 12 years, and was then briefly returned to merform by Triton, as well as her daughter Melody, so I feel safe in saying that Triton can alter her form at will.

Also, Dondald had no problem changing himself, Sora and Goofy.

Having said that, I can see how it might have been problematic for story continuity.

 

[Max]

In one of the sequels (watched Little Mermaid, Return to the Sea, and Ariel's Beginning over the weekend with my daughter, who unlocked Atlantica Saturday in KH1) Ariel remained human for 12 years, and was then briefly returned to merform by Triton, as well as her daughter Melody, so I feel safe in saying that Triton can alter her form at will.

Also, Dondald had no problem changing himself, Sora and Goofy.

Having said that, I can see how it might have been problematic for story continuity.

There is a sequel to that movie? Why?

 

[Ruran]

There is a sequel to that movie? Why?

That's a good question (well, I know why-$$$). I never saw the third LM movie, but the second one is basically just a rehash of the first one but with Ariel's daughter and not as well made.

Actually, that brings up sonething else that often gets forgotten: Ariel has a daughter who is therefor, a princess. Melody is among the ranks of princess like Kiba and Eilowyn who are all but completely ignored by Disney.

 

[Max]

That's a good question (well, I know why-$$$). I never saw the third LM movie, but the second one is basically just a rehash of the first one but with Ariel's daughter and not as well made.

Actually, that brings up sonething else that often gets forgotten: Ariel has a daughter who is therefor, a princess. Melody is among the ranks of princess like Kiba and Eilowyn who are all but completely ignored by Disney.

Wait, there are three? I was baffled there were two.

And I just assume they are ignored by Disney because either a) A majority of people, like me, don't know who any of those princesses actually are, or b) it's because they are ignored by the rest of the world as well.

 

[Ruran]

Wait, there are three? I was baffled there were two.

And I just assume they are ignored by Disney because either a) A majority of people, like me, don't know who any of those princesses actually are, or b) it's because they are ignored by the rest of the world as well.

Like most Disney animated sequels, they were straight to DVD. Disney is weird when it comes to their sequals, they make them to their most popular movies, but then half-ass them and pretend they never happened when they hit shelves.

The more I think back on it, the more I'm remembering that Disney actually has quite a few princesses that are just unknown/not popular. There's also Kiara, Simba and Nala's daughter and there's probably more I'm forgetting

But I'm digressing. At the time KH1 was made there weren't that many Disney Princesses. It was conceived during the end of the "Disney Renaissance" and we had just gotten a new batch off princesses, enough for there to be more than seven PoH if they chose, but they didn't. Over all, I agree with Tinny. I don't know why Alice specifically being a PoH (especially over Ariel) bothers people so.