Ariel Not Being a Princess of Heart



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Veritas7340

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I saw this question pop up in another topic (Atlantica being in BBS topic), and I thought it merited its own thread.

Alice of Wonderland being a Princess of Heart was something weird that I overlooked years ago due to enjoying the game.

Now, unlike Alice, Ariel is actually a princess (and far hotter, but I'm not sure that's entirely relevant, hence the parentheses).

They both seem innocent so either could've qualified.

While I would've liked seeing Ariel as one of the PoH, I think there are 2 reasons why she was precluded:

1) Ariel was a World Character that could join the Attack Party. For some reason, I guess they thought it would be weird for Atlantica to be the only world in which the ally was no longer available

2) By including Alice, Wonderland is relevant to the plot.

What do you guys think?
 

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I was also at loss as to why Alice is a PoH. The other princesses bar Kairi, and also Ariel, are official, classic, well-known Disney princesses, so Alice seemed to be an oddball among those six.

However, I used to think (I probably still do) that Ariel was not among the ranks because she's a mermaid. The plot necessitated all of the princesses to get kidnapped and brought to Hollow Bastion; imagine how Ariel could have moved about on land with that pisciform lower body of hers. With Ariel out of the picture, the writers needed someone to be the sixth PoH, and thus they went with Alice.

I don't know if there was any out-of-universe, real-world reason behind Alice's "ascension" to PoH-dom, but if there isn't any, the writers could possibly have considered Wendy to fill in that spot. Perhaps Jane, too, but fortunately it didn't happen, for anything related to Tarzan was not to make further appearances after KH1 due to a certain dispute.
 

Veritas7340

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Solosis said:
However, I used to think (I probably still do) that Ariel was not among the ranks because she's a mermaid. The plot necessitated all of the princesses to get kidnapped and brought to Hollow Bastion; imagine how Ariel could have moved about on land with that pisciform lower body of hers.
I agree and don't agree with this. On one hand, Maleficent could've probably copied the spell Ursula did to transform her into a human. On the other hand, most fans, myself included, love her mermaid form a lot more than her human form. So to make Wonderland relevant, they made Alice a PoH. Also, I guess they didn't want to steal a party character from Atlantica.

Despite this though, I still too think it was an oddball move
 

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A world not having a world-specific party member doesn't seem to ever be an issue, though. SDG travel by themselves in Traverse Town, Wonderland, and Monstro without being accompanied by any extra member. That said, it's true that there were no combat-capable protagonists in Wonderland and Monstro.
 

Veritas7340

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No, that's not the issue though. When you return to world that had world-specific allies, you could fight heartless with them. I'm saying that perhaps they thought it would be weird/unfair for, Atlantica-lovers let's say, Ariel to be unplayable anymore b/c of the PoH deal
 

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What I meant to say is that if Ariel was to be kidnapped, then she could be a non-partner in Atlantica and be a supporting character instead. Atlantica would then be like those worlds that I have mentioned earlier in that the party line-up is limited to strictly SDG.
 

Veritas7340

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Yeah I see what you mean. Overall though, between the mermaid-on-dry-land-issue and the game-ally-missing issue, I think the developers assumed it was simpler to make Alice the replacement... something I would not have guessed beforehand but there's nothing wrong with it's being there. Royalty isn't the requirement; purity of heart is. Apparently, innocent wandering Alice is purer than disobedient Ariel
 

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I saw this question pop up in another topic (Atlantica being in BBS topic), and I thought it merited its own thread.

Alice of Wonderland being a Princess of Heart was something weird that I overlooked years ago due to enjoying the game.

Now, unlike Alice, Ariel is actually a princess (and far hotter, but I'm not sure that's entirely relevant, hence the parentheses).

They both seem innocent so either could've qualified.

While I would've liked seeing Ariel as one of the PoH, I think there are 2 reasons why she was precluded:

1) Ariel was a World Character that could join the Attack Party. For some reason, I guess they thought it would be weird for Atlantica to be the only world in which the ally was no longer available

2) By including Alice, Wonderland is relevant to the plot.

What do you guys think?
imo I think that's part of the reason why they chose Alice period. One doesn't have to be an actual princess to be a PoH and Alice's presence helps deter from that. Although, there are people to this day who are convinced that Kairi must be a real princess and have argued Alice is as well. *shrugs*

I've seen this argued for the longest and I don't really think it matters much. The PoH themselves are born into their roles and from a writing standpoint they just needed girls that would be easy to capture. Ariel is too scrappy to be captured easily because she goes on adventures all the time.

For the most part, all the PoH are either very docile in nature, aren't good at defending themselves, or are pretty young. The plot just required the McGuffins be easy to swoop up.
 

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Royalty isn't the requirement; purity of heart is. Apparently, innocent wandering Alice is purer than disobedient Ariel
It isn't that purity of heart is a requirement for one to be PoH. It's that her heart is pure because she is a PoH.

The seven ladies were already born princesses. PoH-dom isn't something that can be granted in one's lifetime. Whether they grow up to be docile women or daring tough girls, it doesn't matter because their statuses as PoH had been determined long before. "Innocence" and "obedience" never did have anything to do with one's being a PoH.

That's going by my memory, though, so I could be wrong.
 

Veritas7340

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imo I think that's part of the reason why they chose Alice period. One doesn't have to be an actual princess to be a PoH and Alice's presence helps deter from that. Although, there are people to this day who are convinced that Kairi must be a real princess and have argued Alice is as well. *shrugs*

I've seen this argued for the longest and I don't really think it matters much. The PoH themselves are born into their roles and from a writing standpoint they just needed girls that would be easy to capture. Ariel is too scrappy to be captured easily because she goes on adventures all the time.

For the most part, all the PoH are either very docile in nature, aren't good at defending themselves, or are pretty young. The plot just required the McGuffins be easy to swoop up.
True and I do agree with this. The game itself says that they are the Princesses of HEART as in their hearts' being devoid of darkness. Kairi is the best example of this. It just seemed weird because it looked like Ariel met the other requirements too in a way, or at least the same as Alice.

@ Solosis

Yes, I agree with that; they were born with hearts of light. What I meant was that Alice's being more innocent than Ariel could be an indicator of the PoH innocence with which she was born.

I guess I don't type things clearly XD
 
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I always thought the reason she wasn't chosen was because she does have some darkness in her heart as shown in all 3 games. In KH1 she briefly teams up with Ursula, in COM she steals the trident, in KH2 she doesn't really team up with Ursula but does side with her in order to get what she wants. It's not that Ariel is evil or anything but she definitely isn't as pure of heart as Aurora or Cindy. I also feel that the fact that she was a party member had something to do with it.
 

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True and I do agree with this. The game itself says that they are the Princesses of HEART as in their hearts' being devoid of darkness. Kairi is the best example of this. It just seemed weird because it looked like Ariel met the other requirements too in a way, or at least the same as Alice.
We never quite get into the nature of the PoH so we don't what their pattern traits are, if any. Wendy's heart had so much light/was so pure that she was mistaken for a PoH, so take that as you will. The only thing Alice and Ariel have in common is that they're both incredibly precocious, but other than that, they don't have much in common imo.
 

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I saw this question pop up in another topic (Atlantica being in BBS topic), and I thought it merited its own thread.

Alice of Wonderland being a Princess of Heart was something weird that I overlooked years ago due to enjoying the game.

Now, unlike Alice, Ariel is actually a princess (and far hotter, but I'm not sure that's entirely relevant, hence the parentheses).
I mean, Alice is like 12 and Ariel is 16 and half-fish but whatever floats your boat. (HA, pun acknowledged but not intended)

First off, only three out of the seven princesses of heart were born princesses (Jasmine, Snow White, Aurora), and of those three only two knew that (Snow White, Jasmine) and of those two only one (Jasmine) was treated like a princess in her home. So I feel like the princess title is totally arbitrary.

I feel like Ariel wasn't chosen because she was a party member, and they could have just done without that I suppose, but she's also the only female party member and removing her would have been a problem. Also, the whole mermaid thing would have created some unnecessary planning. Alice was there, so Alice was easier.

Also, Alice is just as popular as the Disney Princesses in Japan, if not more so. Having her be a princess doesn't seem to be as odd there.
 

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It`s not a requirement for the PoH to be actually Princess in the royal sense, so it doesn`t bother me that Alice was made a PoH over Ariel.
 

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Eeeuuuh... *shrugs*
Well you don't have to be a princess to be a PoH...That was said already...
Eh, I don't think there is any real life reason for Ariel not being a PoH aside from maybe the higher ups might have had a say in the whole thing.
I don't mind that Alice is a PoH though.
 

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imo I think that's part of the reason why they chose Alice period. One doesn't have to be an actual princess to be a PoH and Alice's presence helps deter from that. Although, there are people to this day who are convinced that Kairi must be a real princess and have argued Alice is as well. *shrugs*

I've seen this argued for the longest and I don't really think it matters much. The PoH themselves are born into their roles and from a writing standpoint they just needed girls that would be easy to capture. Ariel is too scrappy to be captured easily because she goes on adventures all the time.

For the most part, all the PoH are either very docile in nature, aren't good at defending themselves, or are pretty young. The plot just required the McGuffins be easy to swoop up.
Hah, could you imagine their troubles if they were trying to abduct Princesses like Merida, Mulan or Pocahontas, or even Tiana or Rapunzel?

This is wildly theoretical, but I'm betting that the Princesses of Heart has a more apt translation in Japanese, and are defined as Princesses BECAUSE of their Hearts rather than princesses with pure hearts.

Beyond that, I HAVE wondered at why Alice was chosen as a PoH over Ariel, or other available Princesses.

Also, off topic, Merida is probably my favorite princess, and Brave was an excellent movie, but I always thought that they left a lot on the table with her. I liked that she has no associated prince, but felt she wasn't particularly challenged by her villain. Hopefully we will get a Brave 2.
 

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This is wildly theoretical, but I'm betting that the Princesses of Heart has a more apt translation in Japanese, and are defined as Princesses BECAUSE of their Hearts rather than princesses with pure hearts.
Not even a theory, that's the case. In case anyone was wondering, this is what the official glossary has to say about the princesses

Seven Princesses entry from Dream said:
Another name for the princesses of heart: the only seven people in the world whose hearts are pure light.

While not necessarily royalty, they are called "princesses" because they are all female and the one who brings them together will reign over all worlds.

The nature of the princesses' power is not entirely clear, but once already their hearts have been stolen to create an entrance to Kingdom Hearts and a so-called "Keyblade of heart."
 

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A world not having a world-specific party member doesn't seem to ever be an issue, though. SDG travel by themselves in Traverse Town, Wonderland, and Monstro without being accompanied by any extra member. That said, it's true that there were no combat-capable protagonists in Wonderland and Monstro.
Not to mention that in both KH1 and KH2, they were in Olympus Coliseum alone even though Hercules was a good ally in both games that could have gone to the underworld. So I never counted Ariel as a party member being the reason she was scrapped as a PoH (if she was even a PoH).

I always thought the reason she wasn't chosen was because she does have some darkness in her heart as shown in all 3 games. In KH1 she briefly teams up with Ursula, in COM she steals the trident, in KH2 she doesn't really team up with Ursula but does side with her in order to get what she wants. It's not that Ariel is evil or anything but she definitely isn't as pure of heart as Aurora or Cindy. I also feel that the fact that she was a party member had something to do with it.
I think that's the most plausible explanation. I mean, obviously the reason she isn't a PoH means she has to have some darkness in her heart. All of the current PoH (Disney ones) are, for better or worse, the gullible, innocent, naive Disney females who for the most part blindly accept the fates they were put into in their movies. The only one who I feel is the farthest from that is Jasmine since she stands up for herself as she "isn't a prize to be won" but I don't think she disregarded the rules as much as Ariel did given her outlandish actions were out of pure greed to do what she wanted to do.
 

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Firstly it was I who'd brought that up in the BBS topic and am glad to know that it had inspired it's own thread, unfortunately a distasteful habit of mine is how I can go off topic.

I was also at loss as to why Alice is a PoH. The other princesses bar Kairi, and also Ariel, are official, classic, well-known Disney princesses, so Alice seemed to be an oddball among those six.

However, I used to think (I probably still do) that Ariel was not among the ranks because she's a mermaid. The plot necessitated all of the princesses to get kidnapped and brought to Hollow Bastion; imagine how Ariel could have moved about on land with that pisciform lower body of hers. With Ariel out of the picture, the writers needed someone to be the sixth PoH, and thus they went with Alice.
Respectfully I disagree and had suggested an alteration in the BBS thread of Ursula simply changing her fin to legs as she does in the film. This would have been interesting and unique. The Atlantica story even includes Ursula tricking her into stealing the triton by falsely promising to fulfill her wish of seeing other worlds. Imposing legs upon her and then kidnapping her to transport to Hallow Bastian would have fit in perfectly with this.
If they really valued Ariel as an alternate party choice (which is by no means unappreciated because she's a pretty damn good fighter) this could be improvised by having Malificent perform the spell and kidnap her in the end after Ursula is defeated since she won't be able to do much swimming with the fishes so to speak HA. XD Much like what happened with Alice. She disappears at the end because she was kidnapped and taken to Hallow Bastian.

Veritas7340 said:
2) By including Alice, Wonderland is relevant to the plot.


Personally I don't see why this is a revenant point. The Queen of Hearts was accusing Alice of stealing her heart. That's just about as substantial a story as Jack Skellington wanting to manufacture a heart to make the heartless dance for a Halloween Festival (which I thought was a great story, I just love Halloweentown and the Pumpkinhead Keyblade and even more so in KHII with the addition of Christmas Town).
Then again I don't value the relevance of Wonderland as I was never a huge fan of the film or the story in general. The Tim Burton version is the first one I found mildly enjoyable.
 
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