Are TAV a disappointment?

[fantasy08]

Was written by Agent_Scarn from gamefaqs. What do you think of his opinion? Discuss.

" Terra:
The shallowest of the shallow. So bloody worthless. You can't just keep saying "darkness." It means nothing. It's a buzzword. What is darkness? Anger? Angry about what? He's admired. Respected. Powerful. Successful. His Master's favorite student, practically his damn son. Hatred? Of what? He lives a pretty cushy life. Even in the deepest, heaviest moments of his story, his only problem is that he's a ****ing dumbass who believes everything he hears. I mean, he met Xehanort once before the game began. Why trust him so much? Eraqus and Aqua may not be worshiping you, but one little bit of constructive criticism is no reason to break off a multi-year friendship. And isn't it obvious Xehanort's just feeding your ego? Think about it. The people who know you best think you're being a little foolish. But this guy -- with an evil goatee, a sinister smirk, and known ties to Vanitas and the Unversed -- who preaches the exact thing you spent your entire life training to fight, who knows nothing about you, keeps telling you that you can do no wrong. Wake up, dude. Even just a tiny bit. Fear? The game kinda leans that way, but why? It's not like the Mark of Mastery exam is a one-time thing. Eraqus is more than happy to give him as many chances as he needs. And he wouldn't even need them if he'd just get his head out of his ass. Jealousy? Of who? He's the Master's favorite, the biggest, the strongest... Buddy, you've got it made. Lighten the hell up.

This guy's conflict is entirely contrived. His story is completely pointless. It's the story of a dumbass who acts like a dumbass and gets used for it, like a dumbass. There's no actual conflict. There's no development. The futile attempts to tie the Disney worlds into his "growth" are clumsy and awkward. There's just no worth here.

Terra... I know Riku. I played as Riku. And you, sir, are no Riku.

Ventus:
A complete failure on so many levels. Roxas, Xion, Vanitas, and even the Riku Replica became their own characters with their own personalities, even if they were clones to begin with. Ven? Not the case at all. He's...Roxas. Just Roxas. Roxas minus everything that made him deep or interesting. No mystery. No naivete. No detailed development. No existential angst. Just his face and his voice plastered on some generic mannequin. The villains treat him like a tool, and he never breaks out of it. The heroes treat him like a useless little kid, and he never grows up. He never goes anywhere. Accomplishes anything. Has any kind of charm whatsoever. It's kind of ironic: He's Roxas without the heart.

Aqua:
I honestly don't know what the point of her was. She has no villain. No overarching plot. No main theme or central idea. Her entire story is...kind of aimless. Her one recurring role is to clash with Terra every now and then -- first at Hollow Bastion, then at the Graveyard, then in Final Episode. But I don't see why Ven couldn't do that. You know, have the "weak little brother" grow into the mature, responsible one. Have the heart of "light" guide and battle the heart of "darkness." If Ven was more useful and got actual development, there'd be no need for Aqua at all.

I mean, the bottom line is, there's no change. Terra starts off as a naive idiot plagued by the ever-so-vague "darkness" in his heart... And he ends that way. Ven starts off as a useless kid the others have to look after... And he ends that way. Aqua starts off as a misled authority figure... And she ends that way. Their personalities are vague, one-dimensional, barely there at all, and they just never get better. There's no lesson learned. No moral. No point. And without real development, real emotion, some kind of intrigue to cling to, I just cant' care what happens to them. "

 

[Dowhax]

...uh..that's alittle harsh. I understand some points...but still...!

 

[Theart]

I can see where he comes from as far as Terra's concerned, but I HIGHLY disagree with his opinion on Ventus and Aqua.

Roxas was the stereotypical "emo-boy" of KH, and (IMO) a bit of a jerk. Ventus, on the other hand, was happier with life and much more caring about others. In fact, he's probably the best and most developed of the "Sora clones", including Sora himself, save perhaps CoM Sora. Helpless little kid? I think not; he actually destroyed his own heart as means to protect his two best friends. The only other times I can recall that sort of level of courage was when Sora sacrificed his heart in KH1 and Aqua sacrificing herself to save Terra in Last Episode.

And Aqua? In a sense, I can see where the dude's coming from, but overall I disagree.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

I see what you are talking about, but think about it this way.

Terra, who has always been the golden boy and star in Master Eraqus' eyes, was found to have more Darkness in him than normal and denied the privilege to become a Master the first time off. It was like after being told by your favorite teacher you were getting an A then come finals you get a F because they realized you didn't understand how to do something, then they say "Oh, there is next time."

When you go from star pupil to bottom rank, it is an ego bruiser. Terra had been training for the Mark of Mastery for years. He was like the son of Eraqus. Then to have your own father deny you the thing you have been working for after so many years; it hurts. Terra knew he cold take the test again, but his pride was already hurt from the rejection.

Obviously, when you have a bruised ego, you tend to cling to those who rub the ego and inflate it. Which was Master Xehanort. He saw a wounded little puppy and decided to help it so in the end he could throw it into a dog fight.

And don't forget Terra is as kind-hearted and oblivious as Ven. I don't think he'd even been to another world before. Or at least a world with villains that meant to use him. He was innocent and would trust anybody if they helped him. Of course he learns along the way, and he has a good sense of right and wrong, but he was blinded by his innocence.


On to Ven! Ven has a lot more character than Roxas or Xion. Ven is a tool, but then again most Hearts of Pure Light become tools. But he was actively trying to grasp at the truth while trying to find Terra. Everybody i this game is pretty much a tool of Master Xehanort's.

Aqua seems aimless because she is looking for both Ven and Terra. You'd be a bit lost if you didn't know where your friends were. The villains of her friends were also her villains. Despite not being directly used by Master Xehanort or Vanitas (because she was probably the most strong hearted and worldly our of Ven and Terra), she was affected by them because of her friends being hurt/used. She is like Sora in that she is looking for her lost friends and bring them back home.

They have a broader span of characters than you are allowing yourself to see.

Don't forget this game probably spans over a few weeks or a month or so. You wouldn't see much development in such a short amount of time.

 

[Artorius Rex]

Everyone in KH is a cliche. Get used to it. TAV were the best attempt at making three dimensional characters.

 

[Relix]

Terra... I know Riku. I played as Riku. And you, sir, are no Riku.

DAMN!

Anyways to be completely honest, I can agree on some of the points about Terra. The way he ended up becoming manipulated wasn't so ideal. But to be fair he was taught by someone who felt light was absolute, and if there is even a shred of darkness in him he knows he wouldn't get Eraqus approval no matter what. But just to throw in some fun facts. Riku = Win

I disagree with most points made about Ventus and Aqua. Aqua was a complete break away from the usual damsel in distress who messes things up and ends up being the one who has to be saved (looks at Namine and Kairi, even though Namine was pretty well developed in just one GBA game) Aqua takes the role of the one who actually has do the fixing while, Ven and Terra are the ones who end up screwing things up, (Terra mostly, Ven was kind of dragged along).

I mean Ven is no Sora, as much as you wanna say that they have the same kind of personality or whatever Ven lacks Sora's initial charm in my opinion which is why some would think he's a failure. Roxas was the naive, did as he was told, emo kid who's character development was established by a puppet girl who turns out to be a man and heshe's actions led to Roxas's major decisions. Ven, sure he left home and was treated like the kid of the group, the thing was, he is the kid of the group. The last to become an apprentice, the one they want to protect most of all, but he leaves anyway and proves on more accounts then one that he is capable of taking care of himself depsite whether the others want to treat him like a kid or not.

All in all:

Terra: Kinda has a point, a little to exaggerated, but I know where they are coming from
Ven: Don't agree with the main argument of Ven just being a dull Roxas because to me, its visa versa. Maybe a more dull Sora but don't compare Ven to Roxas.
Aqua: I think they missed the point of her character. She is the mother-figure. The one who cleans up there messes and ends up being effected because of everyone elses mistakes. She has no major villian because she did just what a Keyblade Master is supposed to do: keep the peace. Something MX, Terra, Ven(indirectly), and even Eraqus failed to do.

 

[Danica Syer]

Was written by Agent_Scarn from gamefaqs. What do you think of his opinion? Discuss.

Ventus:
A complete failure on so many levels. Roxas, Xion, Vanitas, and even the Riku Replica became their own characters with their own personalities, even if they were clones to begin with. Ven? Not the case at all. He's...Roxas. Just Roxas. Roxas minus everything that made him deep or interesting. No mystery. No naivete. No detailed development. No existential angst. Just his face and his voice plastered on some generic mannequin. The villains treat him like a tool, and he never breaks out of it. The heroes treat him like a useless little kid, and he never grows up. He never goes anywhere. Accomplishes anything. Has any kind of charm whatsoever. It's kind of ironic: He's Roxas without the heart.

Is he kidding?

Ven isn't anything like Roxas. Nowhere near Roxas. In fact: Ven is NOTHING like Roxas except IN appearance.
And from what it sounds like what he's saying about Ven to being a useless tool to calling Ven, Roxas is like saying: "Oh I got to know the character but I don't know the character therefore here I came to my conclusion." At least in my opinion, that's what it sounds like he saying.

Are they blind in NOT noticing Ven's role though if it wasn't significant as Terras or Aqua's?

Anyways, alot of what I wanted to say, Virgil already stated. So yeah. :/

 

[Artorius Rex]

I dunno. Riku was a real asshole. That doesn't make him such a great character when it comes to like-ability.

 

[Dowhax]

I bet they only played uo to the first world in each story and then wrote that.

And Relix: when mentioned how Xion was actually a man, I could only think:

Xion: I'm not a woman, I'm a man.
Roxas: O.O'
Xion: I'm actually not a man. I'm a horse.
Roxas: o.o?
Xion: I'm actually not a horse. I'm broom.
Roxas: o-o.....^.^

 

[Turn]

I dunno. Riku was a real asshole. That doesn't make him such a great character when it comes to like-ability.

For the record, likability hardly means well-developed (or vice versa).

 

[gelandporn]

The shallowest of the shallow.

Ironically I would classify him as the deepest of the trio.

You can't just keep saying "darkness." It means nothing. It's a buzzword. What is darkness? Anger?

Uh, you CAN keep saying darkness because it damn well means something when darkness has a corporeal manifestation.
Also, this criticism effectively applies to all villains and even Riku, not just Terra.

In any case, darkness is represented by various things in the series, anger being one of them. You would imagine that after having played a series since 2002 about light and darkness, you would have figured out what darkness is.

Angry about what? He's admired. Respected. Powerful. Successful. His Master's favorite student, practically his damn son. Hatred? Of what? He lives a pretty cushy life.

This is incredibly stupid and short sighted.
So what about Riku? Where did all of his darkness come from? He had a pretty "cushy" life, don't you think?

It's made abundantly clear that some characters have a more innate inclination toward darkness than others. There doesn't have to be a "reason." They don't have to have had a tragic, hardcore life. Think of it as genes in the KH series- Terra and Riku have the darkness gene.

Even in the deepest, heaviest moments of his story, his only problem is that he's a ****ing dumbass who believes everything he hears.

I actually disagree. When the Japanese version came out, all of the things Terra did lead me to believe he was gullible.
However, having now experienced the bulk of his story myself in English, I don't think it's quite that.

First and foremost you need to differentiate between the audience's perspective and the character's perspective. From where we see things, of course we know Master Xehanort is evil. For example, when the camera pans to him giving a devilish grin. That's our cue to suspect him, not the character's. We're supposed to know that they're being led into a trap.

With that said, I'd attribute more of Terra's grievances to being unlucky than being a dumbass. He actually knows in most cases that he's hinging on the dark side (eg with the Queen), which he does in order to complete his mission.

I mean, he met Xehanort once before the game began. Why trust him so much?

Another stupid question. Because he's a keyblade master, something which Terra aspires to be. What reason is there to not trust him?

Hell, why should Terra have trusted Eraqus when he chose him to be his successor?
Why should Riku have trusted Terra?

The long and short of it is that part of investing trust in another is about what you believe they are, and not actually who they are.
Unfortunately, Terra chose to trust the wrong person, just like how Riku chose to trust Xehanort's Heartless.

Eraqus and Aqua may not be worshiping you, but one little bit of constructive criticism is no reason to break off a multi-year friendship.

Who said anything about him breaking off the friendship? He got pissed off, yeah, but I don't see how such a natural response equates to ending their friendship.

And it was a bit more than just "constructive criticism." He failed the exam he wanted to pass and had been preparing for, I imagine, at least five to ten years. But his friend passed. Imagine that. Would you be pissed? A little jealous? I would.

And isn't it obvious Xehanort's just feeding your ego? Think about it. The people who know you best think you're being a little foolish. But this guy -- with an evil goatee, a sinister smirk, and known ties to Vanitas and the Unversed -- who preaches the exact thing you spent your entire life training to fight, who knows nothing about you, keeps telling you that you can do no wrong. Wake up, dude. Even just a tiny bit. Fear? The game kinda leans that way, but why?

Again, the audience's perspective.
Part of the reason why Terra ends up relying on MX is because, even if he is the antagonist, what he says is not entirely untrue. He's not talking about the old black and white idea of darkness. "Hey Terra, join me and use the darkness for evil and destruction!"

He constantly refers back to the balance between light and darkness. We've been continually spoon fed throughout the series that you need both light and darkness. Moreover, he tells Terra that Eraqus is blinded by the light. Which, you know what, is true.
On the other hand, we have Vanitas, who represents the conventional threat of darkness.

Point being that what MX says makes sense.

This guy's conflict is entirely contrived. His story is completely pointless. It's the story of a dumbass who acts like a dumbass and gets used for it, like a dumbass. There's no actual conflict. There's no development. The futile attempts to tie the Disney worlds into his "growth" are clumsy and awkward. There's just no worth here.

Someone's unfamiliar with the tragic hero.

Terra... I know Riku. I played as Riku. And you, sir, are no Riku.

Right, because Riku was a much bigger dumbass than Terra.

Ventus:
A complete failure on so many levels. Roxas, Xion, Vanitas, and even the Riku Replica became their own characters with their own personalities, even if they were clones to begin with. Ven? Not the case at all. He's...Roxas. Just Roxas. Roxas minus everything that made him deep or interesting.

Not sure which game you were playing. Ven was clearly a mix between Sora and Roxas, which we had really known even prior to the game's release.
He's got Sora's spunk but Roxas' seriousness.

No mystery.

Funny, because Nomura said a couple years back than the point of the game was to answer the question, "Ven, who are you?"

No naivete.

Why is this important?
Though I would like to point out that he's naive in the same way that Sora is- just a kid going around gawking at the worlds he visits.

No detailed development.

"Just put an end to me."

No existential angst.

See previous quote.

The villains treat him like a tool, and he never breaks out of it. The heroes treat him like a useless little kid, and he never grows up. He never goes anywhere. Accomplishes anything. Has any kind of charm whatsoever. It's kind of ironic: He's Roxas without the heart.

Hahahahaha. Oh wow.
You know who else was a tool? Roxas! See: 358/2 Days. He was the Organization's tool through and through. Doesn't make him a bad character.
Ven is absolutely a plot device, sure.

Aqua:
I honestly don't know what the point of her was. She has no villain.

Since when did we have to have an arch enemy for there to be a conflict?

No overarching plot. No main theme or central idea. Her entire story is...kind of aimless.

Her story is a response to the other two, hence why it's best to play last.
She's supposed to find the source of the Unversed and bring back Ven. Each of the three characters has their own motives. I don't see how hers is any more "aimless."
And, uh, the "central idea" of her story is the same one as in the other two. Bonds. :/
It's always bonds. You know, like how she uses her bond with Ven to defeat Venitas?

Terra starts off as a naive idiot plagued by the ever-so-vague "darkness" in his heart... And he ends that way.

If you can look at him as the same person in the secret ending as he was at the start of the game, you're dead wrong.

And again, see: tragic hero.

Ven starts off as a useless kid the others have to look after... And he ends that way.

Ven is willing to die so that the X-Blade won't be created, but in the end defeats Vanitas, a manifestation of his own darkness.
Yeah.

Aqua starts off as a misled authority figure... And she ends that way.

I don't even understand this one. How does she end a misled authority figure? Where in her ending or the Last Episode is she a misled authority figure?

There's no lesson learned. No moral. No point. And without real development, real emotion, some kind of intrigue to cling to, I just cant' care what happens to them. "

Terra falls victim to the darkness and both Aqua and Ven sacrifice themselves. These are classic themes. How can you not find a moral or a point?

 

[Absolute]

Sounds like this guy's entire argument can be boiled down to:

I hate Terra.

I hate Ven.

I hate Aqua.

The end.

 

[fantasy08]

I'm seeing pissed off you this and you that in the replies, and I'm getting worried lol.Everyone I hope you got that I didn't write this. I made that clear in the my OP. Also Grass, this should tickle you, Agent_Scarn is one of KMA's aliases. He divulged that a little after people started replying in the topic.

 

[MomentoMori]

Well isn't this guy just a ray of fcking sunshine.

 

[gelandporn]

I know that, I was just getting my thoughts down.
And that really doesn't surprise me, that it's KMA.

I found a topic where Hirokey was praising the character development in Days while BbS was stale.
Suffice it to say I lol'd.

 

[MomentoMori]

I know that, I was just getting my thoughts down.
And that really doesn't surprise me, that it's KMA.

I found a topic where Hirokey was praising the character development in Days while BbS was stale.
Suffice it to say I lol'd.

Wait...WHAT? There was character development in Days?! Are we even talking about the same game?!

 

[gelandporn]

Didn't you see all those ice cream scenes??? Surely all that talking must have been character development!

 

[MomentoMori]

Didn't you see all those ice cream scenes??? Surely all that talking must have been character development!

"Roxas, I need you to help me because I can't wield a Keyblade."

Days later...

"Roxas, I need you to do my assignments for me because I still can't wield a Keyblade."


Overwhelming character development is overwhelming. e_e

 

[rokudamia2]

I prefer days to bbs but this argument is retarded

 

[Zulkir]

Terra... I know Riku. I played as Riku. And you, sir, are no Riku.

Absolutely correct, Terra is far better than Riku considering the difference in development time between the two characters.


Idiot: Terra, you are no Riku.

Terra: WHEW!

I'm seeing pissed off you this and you that in the replies, and I'm getting worried lol.Everyone I hope you got that I didn't write this. I made that clear in the my OP. Also Grass, this should tickle you, Agent_Scarn is one of KMA's aliases. He divulged that a little after people started replying in the topic.

That explains a lot.

I know that, I was just getting my thoughts down.
And that really doesn't surprise me, that it's KMA.

I found a topic where Hirokey was praising the character development in Days while BbS was stale.
Suffice it to say I lol'd.

BUT WHO WILL I EAT ICE CREAM WITH?

And to quote Ulti, "Everyone seems to forget that Days was the worst of the KH series, odd that you put shit on a pedestal."

"Roxas, I need you to help me because I can't wield a Keyblade."

Days later...

"Roxas, I need you to do my assignments for me because I still can't wield a Keyblade."

Roxas, those hearts Xemnas took, go free them!

*5 minutes later*

Riku, stop roxas!