Apprentice Xehanort "Amnesia" / Ansem: Seeker of Darkness / Xemnas (KH1-2 Plots)



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FudgemintGuardian

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I guess he wasn't all that concerned because of the Replica Program. Vexen likely made enough Replicas before his demise in CoM to fill out the empty ranks.
Vexen says in his secret report that he made "some twenty vessels" back in the original Org. XIII, so not just enough vessels for the darknesses, but lights too.
 

Twilight Lumiair

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I. Would. Love that! Plus it'd give Terra something going forward.
And it's a much more personal reason for involvement beyond his friendship with Ventus dragging him into things (which is weak justification on it's own).

Lord knows most of the returning cast didn't have much, or any sort of arc/storyline set up for them moving forward.
Funnily, it's super duper likely that Nomura put everyone's return and plotlines at the very end thinking that's where the most impact would be.
Well someone needs to tell him, that's not how proper storytelling works. The irony of such thinking is honestly palpable.
And let's be real here for a sec. Anyone who watches/reads a series finale without prior knowledge of the story and complains it made no sense or wasn't emotional without said knowledge should be punched with a fish.

It's super when a series gets newcomers, but they shouldn't be catered to in the sense of dropping or dumbing down plot threads that's been being built up for years in a poor attempt to make it more appealing to those without previous knowledge. For one, it makes the longtime fans who put in the big time and big money big angry. Secondly, if the first KH game new people choose to play is the dang Xehanort finale, chances are they're not here for the story, so catering to them like that just becomes a waste.
Exactly. Why is this so hard to understand? Like... I get wanting to attract newcomers might seem advantageous from a business perspective, but it severely detracts from the quality of what should be a story catered to it's loyal fans (the people who made it a success) first and foremost. At least, imo.

Well, okay, yeah. It technically could, yes. :LOL: But it's like you said. And even if the story lets go of the unresolved plotlines, the fact that there is unresolved plotlines will always linger around
Pretty much. I forget who, but I remember a certain user putting it pretty well back when KH3 was having it's plot leaked. If it keeps moving at it's current trajectory, and things don't get fixed, a large part of the series' ultimate legacy will just be it's enormous mass of wasted potential. Which will always weigh it down for many, and mildly stick out for the rest.
 
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Vexen says in his secret report that he made "some twenty vessels" back in the original Org. XIII, so not just enough vessels for the darknesses, but lights too.
This is why I want more info and a visual on the Replica Program. I thought it was a interesting concept in COM that KH2 just threw away and made no mention of. Then Days brought it back and KH3 finalized it in the biggest way. Saix even hinted in his Days reports that they had a replacement replica for Xion since he consider her a failure. How I wish we could see how these things are made, controlled, and get their features from blank dolls to human like beings. I hope ReMind shows it. I hate that it's mostly offscreen.

I want a Replica side game with Vexen and the scientist! Boring as it may be XD
 

FudgemintGuardian

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This is why I want more info and a visual on the Replica Program. I thought it was a interesting concept in COM that KH2 just threw away and made no mention of. Then Days brought it back and KH3 finalized it in the biggest way. Saix even hinted in his Days reports that they had a replacement replica for Xion since he consider her a failure. How I wish we could see how these things are made, controlled, and get their features from blank dolls to human like beings. I hope ReMind shows it. I hate that it's mostly offscreen.

I want a Replica side game with Vexen and the scientist! Boring as it may be XD
Heck. Look at how long it took to show what an empty replica looks like. It's annoying how we've never even been shown where Vexen made them and it's ridiculous in KH3 as there's no way he could have done it at the graveyard. Was it at TWTNW? Is there anything left there? Castle Oblivion would make sense, but imagine the trouble that could've been caused thanks to Aqua changing it back. Not only should Vexen have lost whatever equipment and replicas he had stored there unless the restoration carried them over, but Demyx could've been in there getting another replica. He might be stuck in a wall now!
 

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It's annoying how we've never even been shown where Vexen made them and it's ridiculous in KH3 as there's no way he could have done it at the graveyard. Was it at TWTNW? Is there anything left there? Castle Oblivion would make sense, but imagine the trouble that could've been caused thanks to Aqua changing it back.
And this is why I say Vexen should've been the one positioned in Hollow Bastion rather than Ienzo, who's illusionary powers could've made him a far better spy and conspirator against Xehanort. There's SO much potential there for clever twist and interesting scenarios, and it's ridiculous that they never did thought to do anything with that. Not to mention Vexen could've had all his same story beats, but also could've given us deeper insight into how he makes replicas, as well as explain where he gets his resources from.

In short, Vexen should've been at the home base while Ienzo worked as the field agent. A much more appropriate dynamic.
 
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Heck. Look at how long it took to show what an empty replica looks like. It's annoying how we've never even been shown where Vexen made them and it's ridiculous in KH3 as there's no way he could have done it at the graveyard. Was it at TWTNW? Is there anything left there? Castle Oblivion would make sense, but imagine the trouble that could've been caused thanks to Aqua changing it back. Not only should Vexen have lost whatever equipment and replicas he had stored there unless the restoration carried them over, but Demyx could've been in there getting another replica. He might be stuck in a wall now!
I always assumed it was at TWTNW or in some underground basement lab at the graveyard. But yeah, we don't even know where Vexen makes these things, it can't possibly be in the open desert. I assumed he moved over his equipment from C.O. or maybe he's using the old mansion in Twilight Town and the pods. It would explain how he knew HPO and Ansem were in danger from Ansem SOD. Probably not, but just guessing. It's my headcanon they wake up on a experiment table just like Dr. Finkelstein's experiments, or like Darth Vader. Now I just need one of them to scream "Nooooo!" upon waking.

If the game paid more attention to Terranort's science roots as Apprentice Xehanort they could have even had him assisting Vexen. That's right, they were scientist together in Radiant Garden, so I would have loved for him to note how far Even/Vexen has come in his research since the old days and making notes of the replicas for future darkness of hearts tests. But Apprentice Xehanort doesn't exist anymore :(
 

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Well the castle wasn't completely destroyed, so...
Yeeaaaah, but KH3 doesn't even mention the place....

And this is why I say Vexen should've been the one positioned in Hollow Bastion rather than Ienzo, who's illusionary powers could've made him a far better spy and conspirator against Xehanort. There's SO much potential there for clever twist and interesting scenarios, and it's ridiculous that they never did thought to do anything with that. Not to mention Vexen could've had all his same story beats, but also could've given us deeper insight into how he makes replicas, as well as explain where he gets his resources from.

In short, Vexen should've been at the home base while Ienzo worked as the field agent. A much more appropriate dynamic.
One more in the lost potential conga line.

I always assumed it was at TWTNW or in some underground basement lab at the graveyard. But yeah, we don't even know where Vexen makes these things, it can't possibly be in the open desert. I assumed he moved over his equipment from C.O. or maybe he's using the old mansion in Twilight Town and the pods. It would explain how he knew HPO and Ansem were in danger from Ansem SOD. Probably not, but just guessing.
I don't think Ienzo knew about the old mansion until he received the notification, so Vexen may not have either, but I can't say for certain. It would make sense, but then that brings the question of how did HPO never come across him. I think Vexen was meant to be following Ansem SoD, but then that brings the question of how did he know what Ansem SoD was doing.....

It's my headcanon they wake up on a experiment table just like Dr. Finkelstein's experiments, or like Darth Vader. Now I just need one of them to scream "Nooooo!" upon waking.
🤣

If the game paid more attention to Terranort's science roots as Apprentice Xehanort they could have even had him assisting Vexen. That's right, they were scientist together in Radiant Garden, so I would have loved for him to note how far Even/Vexen has come in his research since the old days and making notes of the replicas for future darkness of hearts tests. But Apprentice Xehanort doesn't exist anymore :(
It would've been Ansem SoD since his dialogue indicates he's meant to be Apprentice Xehanort, but the point stands.



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And it's a much more personal reason for involvement beyond his friendship with Ventus dragging him into things (which is weak justification on it's own).
Similarly with Aqua. She sort of has something going forward being the successor of a Dandelion descendant, but....what would that entail? She could learn of Eraqus' lineage, the UX-era, and more on the Land of Departure, which is groovy, but I not only expect this as something she'd learn just from tagging along with Ven, but most of the cast will likely go through.

Not that this can't work out well for Aqua, but she's likely to become a bystander in the plot.

Maybe if Aqua became a helicopter mom after she reunited with Terra and Ven.
 
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Face My Fears

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I was rewatching the scene in KH3D when Xigbar reveals the Organization's "true purpose". It actually brought up two inconsistencies:

1) Xigbar mentions that he was going to hook up the nobodies to Kingdom Hearts in order to transfer Xehanort into all the bodies. In KH3, Xehanort doesn't need to do that (maybe because he went the replica route and not the nobody route?)

2) Xigbar and Xemnas acknowledge that the plan all along was to get the 13 nobodies to do this, which means that Apprentice Xehanort must have done the split intentionally.
 

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I was rewatching the scene in KH3D when Xigbar reveals the Organization's "true purpose". It actually brought up two inconsistencies:

1) Xigbar mentions that he was going to hook up the nobodies to Kingdom Hearts in order to transfer Xehanort into all the bodies. In KH3, Xehanort doesn't need to do that (maybe because he went the replica route and not the nobody route?)

2) Xigbar and Xemnas acknowledge that the plan all along was to get the 13 nobodies to do this, which means that Apprentice Xehanort must have done the split intentionally.
That's just it though. Xemnas wasn't aware of MX's plans until DDD. All evidence supports that neither ASoD and Xemnas weren't aware, so it's not a plot hole. Xemnas was subconsciously working them out, but that's only because his goals aligned with MX's. His amnesia was real. BBS shows that.
 

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That's just it though. Xemnas wasn't aware of MX's plans until DDD. All evidence supports that neither ASoD and Xemnas weren't aware, so it's not a plot hole. Xemnas was subconsciously working them out, but that's only because his goals aligned with MX's. His amnesia was real. BBS shows that.
I'm not saying it's a plot hole, I'm just trying to figure out HOW Master Xehanort was so sure that his amnesiac self that was possessing someone else would be able to follow instructions especially after becoming a heartless and nobody -- both of which seemed to have their own agendas and no knowledge of the existence of the other (I remember reading a report in KH1 that made it seem like Ansem thought the body perished after becoming a heartless).
 

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I'm not saying it's a plot hole, I'm just trying to figure out HOW Master Xehanort was so sure that his amnesiac self that was possessing someone else would be able to follow instructions especially after becoming a heartless and nobody -- both of which seemed to have their own agendas and no knowledge of the existence of the other (I remember reading a report in KH1 that made it seem like Ansem thought the body perished after becoming a heartless).
Honestly, I have no clue. The implication is that they were told, or found out at some point, but I'm not sure how or when. For example, SoD was the one who went back and gave Young Xehanort his time powers for the sake of gathering his other selves throughout time, but... Why? How? When? Is that the reason he split in the first place? I thought it was stated multiple times by himself and other characters he justed wanted to get a deeper understanding of the darkness? So is the implication then that he himself created that plan as Apprentice Xehanort just before the split? How would he know about his multiple "selves" throughout time if he didn't even know about Xemnas?

Or, perhaps, did Master Xehanort himself instruct SoD to do this (since I doubt SoD ever concocted this plan for a multitude of reasons, but mainly because he wouldn't have been so disintrested in it during KH3)? And if that's the case, how did Xehanort give him the instructions in the first place? It was stated by Young Xehanort in DDD that SoD was there at the time Destiny Islands falls to darkness specifically to set up the events of DDD, so are we to assume then that it was present Ansem SoD that did the time traveling after being plucked by Young Xehanort? Isn't that backwards?

Ooooo, I think now I'm finally starting to see why DDD was giving people headaches. It's all a convoluted mess once you start getting into the nitty gritty. Especially in regards SoD's time travel shennanigans.
 
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Face My Fears

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Honestly, I have no clue. The implication is that they were told, or found out at some point, but I'm not sure how or when. For example, SoD was the one who went back and gave Young Xehanort his time powers for the sake of gathering his other selves throughout time, but... Why? How? When? Is that the reason he split in the first place? I thought it was stated multiple times by himself and other characters he justed wanted to get a deeper understanding of the darkness? So is the implication then that he himself created that plan as Apprentice Xehanort just before the split? How would he know about his multiple "selves" throughout time if he didn't even know about Xemnas?

Or, perhaps, did Master Xehanort himself instruct SoD to do this (since I doubt SoD ever concocted this plan for a multitude of reasons, but mainly because he wouldn't have been so disintrested in it during KH3)? And if that's the case, how did Xehanort give him the instructions in the first place? It was stated by Young Xehanort in DDD that SoD was there at the time Destiny Islands falls to darkness specifically to set up the events of DDD, so are we to assume then that it was present Ansem SoD that did the time traveling after being plucked by Young Xehanort? Isn't that backwards?

Ooooo, I think now I'm finally starting to see why DDD was giving people headaches. It's all a convoluted mess once you start getting into the nitty gritty. Especially in regards SoD's time travel shennanigans.
Maybe Master Xehanort (after being recompleted) realized that SoD was a heart that conveniently was at Destiny Islands at the time of it falling to the darkness -- so he could enact his plans for 3D with him there -- and also realized that Xemnas conveniently on his own assembled 13 nobodies which he could use for his plan to summon Kingdom Hearts?

I always viewed it as Master Xehanort planning from since BbS to get the 7 princesses of heart and 13 nobodies to transfer himself into, but both plans were thwarted which resulted in his return to try it again as himself. But then when I thought about it, it was never actually established that his plan was to split himself up and have Ansem and Xemnas execute different parts of his plan.

The only thing I can see really making sense of all of this is if Xigbar was there to influence Ansem and Xemnas' actions... which is logical. Braig would have been there when the split happened. If Apprentice Xehanort really had amnesia, then Xemnas really didn't know his heartless was running amok and/or didn't know his heartless was like Ansem. When we meet Xemnas in KH1, he only seems to remember Ansem The Wise. Anyway, Xigbar could have easily instructed Ansem about the princesses of heart as the key to opening "The Door To Darkness" and even set him up to be at Destiny Islands for Master Xehanort's 3D plan. It's also very easy to believe that Xigbar was influencing Xemnas early on. And of course, Xigbar's actions all go back to the MoM. Which would make Xehanort a little tragic, as his whole life was nothing more than manipulation after manipulation by the MoM... somewhat fitting as Xehanort manipulated so many others.
 

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Hm....maybe the reason Ansem knew about it all is because he was harboring Master Xehanort's heart, like how Xemnas harbored Terra's.

I bring this up because I remembered a line from Re:Coded's first secret ending, bringing up how Xehanort's heart was seized by his Heartless half.

Both MX and Terra's hearts were freed after AX did the ol' stabby stabby.

MX was in Ansem, and Terra was in Xemnas.

Both Ansem and Xemnas became independent beings eventually, but in the time it took for them to become independent, they still had MX and Terra influencing them.
 

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Maybe Master Xehanort (after being recompleted) realized that SoD was a heart that conveniently was at Destiny Islands at the time of it falling to the darkness -- so he could enact his plans for 3D with him there -- and also realized that Xemnas conveniently on his own assembled 13 nobodies which he could
Okay so, after looking at DDD again, I think I may have worked out a reasonable explanation for why SoD was on Destiny Islands during it's fall (though how he knew to time travel is still beyond me, lol).

Sora actually asks Young Xehanort, straight up, this exact question, but the only answer given to him was "simple." It's never elaborated on what exactly YX was gonna say, but immediately after he says this, we see an apparition of Kairi. So maybe the implication is that after Apprentice Xehanort cast Kairi out of Radiant Garden, he eventually found her on Destiny Islands and observed her, only to find out she was led to Sora and Riku's light. After this, he would've been present to witness Riku allowing the darkness into Destiny Islands, which would explain why he referenced this exact information to Sora at the end of KH1. Then again, YX also says that when Ansem possessed Riku, he saw all of the boys experiences in real-time, and implies that it was a factor in his time traveling (even if chronologically that would've happened before hand).

If Apprentice Xehanort really had amnesia, then Xemnas really didn't know his heartless was running amok and/or didn't know his heartless was like Ansem. When we meet Xemnas in KH1, he only seems to remember Ansem The Wise.
Good point. Though it's heavily implied the Organization finally found out about Ansem during the final chapters of KH1, because by the time we get to Reverse Rebirth, Zexion, Lexeaus, and Vexen all seemed to have a decent idea of at least what he was and what he tried to do. I believe Zexion even mentioned him by name.

The only thing I can see really making sense of all of this is if Xigbar was there to influence Ansem and Xemnas' actions... which is logical. Braig would have been there when the split happened. If Apprentice Xehanort really had amnesia, then Xemnas really didn't know his heartless was running amok and/or didn't know his heartless was like Ansem. When we meet Xemnas in KH1, he only seems to remember Ansem The Wise. Anyway, Xigbar could have easily instructed Ansem about the princesses of heart as the key to opening "The Door To Darkness" and even set him up to be at Destiny Islands for Master Xehanort's 3D plan. It's also very easy to believe that Xigbar was influencing Xemnas early on. And of course, Xigbar's actions all go back to the MoM. Which would make Xehanort a little tragic, as his whole life was nothing more than manipulation after manipulation by the MoM... somewhat fitting as Xehanort manipulated so many others
Yeah, that sounds reasonable enough. I'll probably just accept this explanation for now, unless perhaps a better one presents itself.

Hm....maybe the reason Ansem knew about it all is because he was harboring Master Xehanort's heart, like how Xemnas harbored Terra's.

I bring this up because I remembered a line from Re:Coded's first secret ending, bringing up how Xehanort's heart was seized by his Heartless half.

Both MX and Terra's hearts were freed after AX did the ol' stabby stabby.

MX was in Ansem, and Terra was in Xemnas.

Both Ansem and Xemnas became independent beings eventually, but in the time it took for them to become independent, they still had MX and Terra influencing them.
That's actually a really good observation! Xehanort and Terra had a very similar disposition to that of Ventus and Sora, and we know that it's implied Ventus' dormant heart may have stayed within Sora's body/Nobody (explaining Roxas' appearance). Who's to say that when Apprentice Xehanort split himself apart, Terra's didn't stay in his Nobody the same way Ventus' did?

However, the one issue I see with this idea is that technically, Xemnas wouldn't really be a "Xehanort" in any sense, would he? He has Terra's body and soul, and was hypothetically influenced by Terra's heart. Does that kind of makeup constitute him being one of Xehanort's "selves" throughout time? Aw, but maybe we shouldn't open that can of worms.
 
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I'm not saying it's a plot hole, I'm just trying to figure out HOW Master Xehanort was so sure that his amnesiac self that was possessing someone else would be able to follow instructions especially after becoming a heartless and nobody
Because those events were supposed to happen. They've been pushing this whole "destiny isn't left to chance" for years before the Foreteller Saga. The only things in the series that happened that "weren't supposed to happen" were things involving Sora. If we're taking the MoM's prophesy as evidence, then everything else has been already decided, long before Sora was even born.

On top of that, their MX's plans involved Ansem and Xemnas coming to be, that's it. Their plans were independent from his. Again, a testament to his genius. He knew that they were going to because his plans didn't involve their plans.

both of which seemed to have their own agendas and no knowledge of the existence of the other (I remember reading a report in KH1 that made it seem like Ansem thought the body perished after becoming a heartless).
Yes, because I quoted that particular report earlier in this very thread to support the fact that they were acting independent of MX's plans and focusing on their own.

If Sora hadn't stopped ASoD, he would have eventually made it to the real Kingdom Hearts; which is a part of MX's plan. If Sora hadn't stopped Xemnas, he would have regained a heart, and regained his memories, to continue MX's plans. If Sora had actually joined Marluxia against the Organization, he would have eventually been Norted. All of it, leads beck to his plans.

Even still, MX's heart and memories were still within them (albeit locked away). Their independent goals worked in tandem with his. You see that in KH1 and 2. He also had time travel on his side as a backup for making sure those plans went off without a hitch. He has backup plans for his backup plans.

So as for the "how?". It's because he planned it out all in advance, and made backup plans in case those original plans failed.
 

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Because those events were supposed to happen. They've been pushing this whole "destiny isn't left to chance" for years before the Foreteller Saga. The only things in the series that happened that "weren't supposed to happen" were things involving Sora. If we're taking the MoM's prophesy as evidence, then everything else has been already decided, long before Sora was even born.

On top of that, their MX's plans involved Ansem and Xemnas coming to be, that's it. Their plans were independent from his. Again, a testament to his genius. He knew that they were going to because his plans didn't involve their plans.



Yes, because I quoted that particular report earlier in this very thread to support the fact that they were acting independent of MX's plans and focusing on their own.

If Sora hadn't stopped ASoD, he would have eventually made it to the real Kingdom Hearts; which is a part of MX's plan. If Sora hadn't stopped Xemnas, he would have regained a heart, and regained his memories, to continue MX's plans. If Sora had actually joined Marluxia against the Organization, he would have eventually been Norted. All of it, leads beck to his plans.

Even still, MX's heart and memories were still within them (albeit locked away). Their independent goals worked in tandem with his. You see that in KH1 and 2. He also had time travel on his side as a backup for making sure those plans went off without a hitch. He has backup plans for his backup plans.

So as for the "how?". It's because he planned it out all in advance, and made backup plans in case those original plans failed.
So he planned to lose his memories? He planned for Ansem and Xemnas to do their own thing, that will conveniently coincide with his goal?

How do you plan for that? Master Xehanort seemingly didn't even know about heartless in BbS (at least from my memory), so heartless/nobodies were things that amnesiac Apprentice Xehanort learned.

I get the whole destiny thing, which is fine and all, but it's contradictory with the way Master Xehanort is described to have planned all of this. I believed that he planned to split himself into Ansem and Xemnas; each with specific instructions to do their part in accomplishing Master Xehanort's goal. But if Apprentice Xehanort had no recollection/knowledge of Master Xehanort's goal, there's no way that the Ansem/Xemnas thing could have even been planned when heartless/nobodies were discovered AFTER Xehanort's memories were lost. The nobody thing even seemed to have been a fluke discovery, as Ansem thought his body was destroyed after becoming a heartless.
 

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How do you plan for that? Master Xehanort seemingly didn't even know about heartless in BbS (at least from my memory), so heartless/nobodies were things that amnesiac Apprentice Xehanort learned.
In the flashback to Vanitas's creation, Xehanort summoned them to go up against Ventus so Ven could embrace darkness in what is presumably his first attempt to shortcut his way to the X-Blade.
 

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So he planned to lose his memories?
Unintended effect of his intentional body hopping.

He planned for Ansem and Xemnas to do their own thing, that will conveniently coincide with his goal?
He planned for them to exist. That was all that was required for his plan to work. Just them happening. Their plans conveniently coincided.

How do you plan for that? Master Xehanort seemingly didn't even know about heartless in BbS
The game started with him summoning Neo Shadows on Ventus.

so heartless/nobodies were things that amnesiac Apprentice Xehanort learned.
Heartless were retconned and nobody knew about Nobodies, but yes.

I get the whole destiny thing, which is fine and all, but it's contradictory
Welcome to Kingdom Hearts. Retcons everywhere.

But if Apprentice Xehanort had no recollection/knowledge of Master Xehanort's goal, there's no way that the Ansem/Xemnas thing could have even been planned when heartless/nobodies were discovered AFTER Xehanort's memories were lost. The nobody thing even seemed to have been a fluke discovery, as Ansem thought his body was destroyed after becoming a heartless.
Nobody knew, but they clearly were a thing. Heartless were retconned.
 
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