Apprentice Xehanort "Amnesia" / Ansem: Seeker of Darkness / Xemnas (KH1-2 Plots)



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Face My Fears

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I made a thread about why Xehanort split himself into heartless and nobody because I never really got what that would accomplish. I know that he needed the 13 nobodies to clone himself, but I don't think he would need to split himself to get 13 nobodies.

Anyway, after reading replies in there and just thinking about this more and more... I am now even more confused (and possibly theorizing something in a future game). If Apprentice Xehanort was truly suffering with "amnesia" and decided to split himself into heartless and nobody in hopes of regaining his memories; then it seems that was all initiated because of Girl X. If Xehanort was running (at that time) off of motivations related to Girl X, then would it be safe to assume that KH1 and KH2 were actually Ansem/Xemnas working to find out more about Girl X rather than Master Xehanort's grand scheme?

Ansem created the keyblade that unlocks hearts (with the 7 princesses of heart) and wanted to open the Door To Darkness (what he thought was Kingdom Hearts). Ansem also threw Kairi into space as an experiment. Maybe the choice of Kairi, the Keyblade of People's Hearts, and the Door To Darkness are linked somehow? Maybe he was trying to find a way to extract memories, so that when he finds Girl X he could pull the information out of her? Maybe he threw Kairi into space because he suspected that she was linked to Girl X and/or would lead him to her? Is there any information that really speaks to whether Ansem had regained his memories or if he was running of off Apprentice Xehanort's memories or was he just doing his own thing separate from Xemnas?

Speaking of Xemnas, his plan to recreate Kingdom Hearts to "regain his heart"... was that a Master Xehanort thing or was it an amnesiac Xemnas/Apprentice Xehanort trying to regain his memories? We know now that the Kingdom Hearts that Xemnas created was synthetic, but would that have been useful to Master Xehanort? He clearly didn't need that fake Kingdom Hearts to transfer himself into other bodies, so what was the point of summoning it? It wouldn't have even brought about the X-Blade (not that Xemnas seemed to even know about it).

So yeah... I'm kinda confused at whether Ansem (in KH1) and Xemnas (in KH2) were actually following Master Xehanort's plans or just doing their own thing while having no memory of before Radiant Garden. And if they were doing their own things, then the time travel 7 vs. 13 thing was only devised after Master Xehanort was recompleted? Or did Master Xehanort know Ansem and Xemnas would fail and just let it happen knowing that he would return?
 

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I made a thread about why Xehanort split himself into heartless and nobody because I never really got what that would accomplish. I know that he needed the 13 nobodies to clone himself, but I don't think he would need to split himself to get 13 nobodies.

Anyway, after reading replies in there and just thinking about this more and more... I am now even more confused (and possibly theorizing something in a future game). If Apprentice Xehanort was truly suffering with "amnesia" and decided to split himself into heartless and nobody in hopes of regaining his memories; then it seems that was all initiated because of Girl X. If Xehanort was running (at that time) off of motivations related to Girl X, then would it be safe to assume that KH1 and KH2 were actually Ansem/Xemnas working to find out more about Girl X rather than Master Xehanort's grand scheme?

Ansem created the keyblade that unlocks hearts (with the 7 princesses of heart) and wanted to open the Door To Darkness (what he thought was Kingdom Hearts). Ansem also threw Kairi into space as an experiment. Maybe the choice of Kairi, the Keyblade of People's Hearts, and the Door To Darkness are linked somehow? Maybe he was trying to find a way to extract memories, so that when he finds Girl X he could pull the information out of her? Maybe he threw Kairi into space because he suspected that she was linked to Girl X and/or would lead him to her? Is there any information that really speaks to whether Ansem had regained his memories or if he was running of off Apprentice Xehanort's memories or was he just doing his own thing separate from Xemnas?

Speaking of Xemnas, his plan to recreate Kingdom Hearts to "regain his heart"... was that a Master Xehanort thing or was it an amnesiac Xemnas/Apprentice Xehanort trying to regain his memories? We know now that the Kingdom Hearts that Xemnas created was synthetic, but would that have been useful to Master Xehanort? He clearly didn't need that fake Kingdom Hearts to transfer himself into other bodies, so what was the point of summoning it? It wouldn't have even brought about the X-Blade (not that Xemnas seemed to even know about it).

So yeah... I'm kinda confused at whether Ansem (in KH1) and Xemnas (in KH2) were actually following Master Xehanort's plans or just doing their own thing while having no memory of before Radiant Garden. And if they were doing their own things, then the time travel 7 vs. 13 thing was only devised after Master Xehanort was recompleted? Or did Master Xehanort know Ansem and Xemnas would fail and just let it happen knowing that he would return?
Yes, that's exactly right. Of course, Subject X was never the initial reason, as Nomura only thought her up for KH3. Originally, the main impetus for Xehanort's actions were simple curiosity and a thirst for knowledge about Kingdom Hearts and the Heartless. The experiments were initially conceived as a means of examining Xehanort's amnesia and finding a way to retrieve his lost memories, but at some point Xehanort became obsessed with all the information that they were gaining and all the phenomena that were occurring as a byproduct of their experiments. Subject X was retconned in during KH3 as an additional reason for Xehanort's actions, but it's very obvious that she was never originally the main cause.
As for Xemnas, I would actually guess that he still didn't know who he was during the events of KH2, nor did Ansem during KH1; neither of their plans were consciously being followed in accord with Master Xehanort's schemes. It's more likely that Young Xehanort revealed all this information to them when he travelled through time to collect their hearts into replicas.
 

KeybladeLordSora

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Yes, that's exactly right. Of course, Subject X was never the initial reason, as Nomura only thought her up for KH3. Originally, the main impetus for Xehanort's actions were simple curiosity and a thirst for knowledge about Kingdom Hearts and the Heartless. The experiments were initially conceived as a means of examining Xehanort's amnesia and finding a way to retrieve his lost memories, but at some point Xehanort became obsessed with all the information that they were gaining and all the phenomena that were occurring as a byproduct of their experiments. Subject X was retconned in during KH3 as an additional reason for Xehanort's actions, but it's very obvious that she was never originally the main cause.
As for Xemnas, I would actually guess that he still didn't know who he was during the events of KH2, nor did Ansem during KH1; neither of their plans were consciously being followed in accord with Master Xehanort's schemes. It's more likely that Young Xehanort revealed all this information to them when he travelled through time to collect their hearts into replicas.
Regarding Xemnas, the final secret report of 358/2 Days ends with him stating that he will become a higher existence by way of Kingdom Hearts and that's where all his true ambitions will begin.

So he likely knew exactly who he really was, and if he didn't, he at least knew the goal.
 

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It's been long since I gave up in trying to find the logic behind the whole mess that are the motivations of Master Xehanort, Terra-Xehanort, not-Ansem and Xemnas, but I understand -and admire- that you are still motivated enough to want it to make some sense.
Just remember -I know you do- that the current KH lore wasn't a thing at the time of KH1 and 2. The KH series is Nomura's improvisation after improvisation, game after game. That's why he tries his best to partially retcon things so they make sense but ultimately they don't, or not at all.
Even if they make sense in Nomura's headcanon he doesn't actually know how to properly translate that into the games. I love KH as much as anyone here besides its many flaws, but at this point I've accepted KH is not logical or solid in any way related to its lore.
For me the biggest nonsense of all is how both Naminé and Roxas were able to come into existence through Sora's body. As far as I know, Sora only had ONE body. It somehow was split into a boy and a girl because that absolutely makes sense.
Vanitas was the darkness from Ven's heart but he somehow had a body that came from nowhere instead of being nothing but a heartless.
Funny that replicas were needed in KH3 when bodies were conveniently created from thin air any time the plot needed them.
 

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Kinda off topic, but I do wish Apprentice Xehanort was also a seeker, or at the very least have some of his elements in Terranort. It's a shame that half of Xehanort just seems gone from continuity. I liked the corrupt apprentice story a lot more then the Keyblade wielder possessed by old man story. No shade on Terra though.

Anyway on topic, I don't believe Xemnas was following Xehanort's plan at all. The original Organization XIII went long periods of being Organization VIII instead of XIII which already defeats the purpose of Xehanort's plot to gather 13 vessels. Xemnas had no intention of staying 13 with the original group, and it's made very clear when they don't even count Xion as a "benched" member, even with dead members. So for Xemnas I say no. He was not following Xehanort's original plan, at least not to the fullest. I actually did a post asking why Xemnas didn't replace the fallen members of Organization XIII if the goal the entire time was to gather 13 vessels for Old Man Xehanort right from the start.

With Ansem SOD it's a little trickier. I believe Ansem SOD was following Apprentice Xehanort's plans of seeking knowledge and going above and beyond with his research of darkness, doors, keys and princesses. And while he used Maleficent, Riku and the Disney villains to round up the princesses he doesn't ever mention collecting 13 darkness's or a Keyblade war, does he? He couldn't have known about Xehanort's original plans because in all his reports he's fascinated by the Keyblade and the wielder. This is odd considering who he was made from. So I say no to him too.

I don't think either truly know the plan until DDD.
 

Genocide

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Anyway on topic, I don't believe Xemnas was following Xehanort's plan at all.
He was subconsciously. His amnesia was real.

AX split himself. The way the Ansem Reports 12 & 13 are written, becoming a Human Heartless and Nobody were surprises to him.

"Ansem Report 12" said:
I have transcended to an existence of only the heart. I should have come back as a Heartless, but there is no sign of such a transformation.

My body has surely perished. However, I am different from the other Heartless, keeping the memories of before, and I have not taken on the form of a Heartless. It is clear that there are still many things to be studied.
This is brown coat Xehanort.

"Secret Ansem Report "8 said:
They possess different intentions than their Heartless brethren, and while it is unclear what these sentient "Things" are after, it would appear they are responsible for much bedlam in the world.
Ansem, in regards to Nobodies.

MX's plan was to recruit both of them. So the amnesia was real, and even until their lamentations in KH3, they stayed true to their original, individual goals, whilst showing the effects of the amnesia.

ASoD focused on strength of the heart, darkness and knowledge; telling Sora to go gain more knowledge.

Xemnas was plagued by emptiness, and driven by the desire to regain a heart. At the end, he realized that he gained a heart, and regretted his actions, dying alone. The pain of existence.

This is part of the reason why Sora was in a moral quandary during the Hollow Bastion visit. Fighting Heartless, not fighting; whichever he did, Xemnas would get a heart. It actually makes Xemnas' death all the more sad.

While AX didn't intend to, it was MX's plan, and as we a know (as Square has been drilling this into our head for years), Destiny doesn't happen by chance. ASoD began seeking knowledge, and Xemnas began trying to get his heart back. And THAT'S he genius of MX's plan. His didn't require the failure or success of their respective plans. Yes, they had their own goals and desires, but all he needed was for them to come into existence at some point. Everything else was just bonus.

The original Organization XIII went long periods of being Organization VIII instead of XIII which already defeats the purpose of Xehanort's plot to gather 13 vessels. Xemnas had no intention of staying 13 with the original group, and it's made very clear when they don't even count Xion as a "benched" member, even with dead members. So for Xemnas I say no. He was not following Xehanort's original plan, at least not to the fullest. I actually did a post asking why Xemnas didn't replace the fallen members of Organization XIII if the goal the entire time was to gather 13 vessels for Old Man Xehanort right from the start.

With Ansem SOD it's a little trickier. I believe Ansem SOD was following Apprentice Xehanort's plans of seeking knowledge and going above and beyond with his research of darkness, doors, keys and princesses. And while he used Maleficent, Riku and the Disney villains to round up the princesses he doesn't ever mention collecting 13 darkness's or a Keyblade war, does he? He couldn't have known about Xehanort's original plans because in all his reports he's fascinated by the Keyblade and the wielder. This is odd considering who he was made from. So I say no to him too.
ASoD's plan was beneficial to MX's overall plan, but Xemnas' wasn't; subsequently, it didn't hinder MX's plans in any way. However, since it isn't common knowledge that Nobodies don't age, MX should probably took a second look at becoming a nobody. The Replica program was something MX didn't account for originally, considering he just wanted to body hop. Xemnas wanted to become Human again,

I don't think either truly know the plan until DDD.
This is what all the evidence points to.
 

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Apprentice Xehanort suffered from amnesia. As he became one of Ansem the Wise's apprentices, he started to develop curiosity over the workings of the heart, and I imagine he offered himself as a subject in light of trying to find out about his past. As he starts to investigate more and realize he is a Keyblade wielder, he stabs himself, and this is when his Heartless and Xemnas are created. Then comes Birth by Sleep and it tells us that Ansem's apprentice was actually Keyblade wielder who was possessed by the true Xehanort, and he forgot about his memories because Terra momentarily took control over his body and stabbed himself, causing his memories to be locked away in his heart.

This is what Ansem and Xemnas really are: offsprings of an amnesiac entity. Ansem's goal was to open the Door to Darkness and unleash Darkness upon all worlds because he believed that the essence of existence is Darkness, but the light made him perish. Xemnas wanted to recreate Kingdom Hearts by collecting hearts. He almost did it, but failed, and still embraced his plan of becoming a higher entity to try and recreate the world into his view.

Then Master Xehanort is reborn and he wants to use an ancient weapon in order to summon Kingdom Hearts and recreate the world in perfect balance of light and dark, and then KH3 comes and tells us he wanted to unleashed darkness in order to cleanse it all in one fell swoop.

---

All in all, I think the motivations of each Xehanort were clear, but as Nomura continued writing, he insisted on making everything try to emanate from MX's desire of making 13 versions of himself.
 

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Frankly, I think it says a lot that Xemnas and Ansem SoD really didn't give a shit about Master Xehanort's plan, so much as they were just trying to get some catharsis and closure with the limited time they knew they had left. According to SoD, he mainly joined Xehanort's plan in an attempt to defy his fate from KH1, which is fitting with his stubborn personality, since he would naturally be unwilling to accept that his dogma was so thoroughly proven false. However, once he began to realise this was impossible, or at least highly unlikely, he suffered from emotional burn out and stopped giving a crap about the plan any further. Leading to SoD essentially becoming an accomplice to Vexen and Siax's schemes when he discovered that there were traitors, but never seemed to tell anybody it (he couldn't have really, otherwise Xemnas wouldn't have reacted the way he did when Roxas returned). As for Xemnas himself, I'd have to think it over a bit more, but he seemed primarily interested in regaining his heart, only to later say he no longer felt that he needed one, likely due to veiwing it only as burden. He'd go along with Xehanort's plan in an attempt to "scatter them all to the winds." Eventually though, he'd come realise that he already did, in fact, grow a heart of his own, and was actually just in denial about it for so long (possibly in an attempt to silence his own pain/suffering). Upon this realization, he merely sees his feelings as proof that hearts are nothing more than pain (extreme negative emotions). Pain which stems from how he took advantage of his companions and tossed them away one by one until he truly had nothing left. Perhaps that's why in the end of KH2 Xemnas only sees hearts for their anger, rage, sadness, bliss, etc. Maybe those were the things he was unknowingly feeling deep down, due to his deeply buried regret when he saw Organization 13 was slaughtered, which sorta shows that he was far more human than he let on (this becomes even more likely if we assume the feelings Xemnas felt in KH3 were etched into his heart when he returned to the past).

Anyway, not sure why I made this random analysis, but the thread just had me thinking I guess.

*Edited for grammatical errors*
 
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Ballad of Caius

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To be completely honest, Ansem's and Xemnas' bit in the end should have been what KINGDOM HEARTS III was to be all about: closure of the Xehanort Saga. Ansem and Xemnas provided that, and finally seeing MX pass away alongside Eraqus marked the end of an era that started more than 13 years ago in-universe with Birth by Sleep. But a lot of focus went into developing the Disney worlds and hyping the Foretellers Saga that the Xehanort Saga felt underappreciated.
 

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I feel like a dunce now 'cause I never once considered he was talking about KH1 and just assumed it was specifically about being Xehanort's pawn in DDD and KH3. Though I suppose it could be both.
Hmm... I mean, it's not totally out of the question that Ansem would become bitter about being used as Master Xehanort's pawn. He'd be trying to defy his current fate, as well as his eventual one, which could definitely be a contributing factor for him burning himself out in the end. Better to just let it all finally end than hopelessly try to drag things out ad infinitum.

To be completely honest, Ansem's and Xemnas' bit in the end should have been what KINGDOM HEARTS III was to be all about: closure of the Xehanort Saga. Ansem and Xemnas provided that, and finally seeing MX pass away alongside Eraqus marked the end of an era that started more than 13 years ago in-universe with Birth by Sleep. But a lot of focus went into developing the Disney worlds and hyping the Foretellers Saga that the Xehanort Saga felt underappreciated.
Yeah. One of KH3's primary issues is it's severe lack of complete closure surrounding the vast majority of it's cast and previously established elements. The game leaned far more into brand new ideas and concepts, and in some cases actively avoided drawing from the history and identity of the series (that it's supposed to be concluding).

Even with SoD, Xemnas, and Xehanort, there's SO much that was left completely unaddressed and unconcluded. And considering this is last time we'll ever be seeing them, it's almost 100% guaranteed whatever was left unexplored or unanswered will never really get addressed. Which is a crying shame, and a large part of the reason why the series pretty much ended here for me. Because I can't exactly move on when there's still so much left to be done, to put it another way.
 
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Face My Fears

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The interesting thing about all of this is now it doesn't make Master Xehanort seem like such a master planner. I mean, would he have put all of his plans into hoping that the body hop would result in him regaining his memories eventually?

Or was it that Master Xehanort decided to jump back to the past after seeing the events of KH1 and KH2 play out and use the information at hand to work towards the ultimate goal in KH3? I always assumed that Master Xehanort told Ansem get the 7 princesses while Xemnas worked on getting the 13 bodies (which would explain why the replica program was started), so that he could summon the X-Blade with the least amount of interference. Oddly, when I think of it this way it actually falls in line with Master Xehanort wanting to reset the world and doing it for "good". Master Xehanort just wanted the 7 lights and 13 bodies (replicas or nobodies), so a total of 20 people would be hurt in his quest for "saving the world". At least in his eyes he could have seen it that way -- it was the cleanest option, I suppose. Anyway, I got sidetracked with that thought.

How about we timeline it to make sense of it:

BbS: Master Xehanort body hops to Terra.

Post BbS to the demise of Hollow Bastion: Terranort suffers from amnesia and ultimately furthers Ansem's research to split himself into heartless and nobody. Terranort was pushed to do this because of Girl X's own amnesia and Ansem's suspected hiding of her.

KH1: Ansem SOD retains memories of his time as Terranort and continues to seek knowledge. He decides (not Master Xehanort) to assemble the 7 princesses of heart, so that he can open the Door To Darkness as he believes darkness to be the heart's true essence. Xemnas decides (on his own, as the reports make it seem like Ansem SOD believed his body to have perished) to search for his heart and create Kingdom Hearts. Xemnas researches nobodies and replicas at this time -- in hopes to make a replica of a keyblade wielder, so that he can gather hearts more quickly and summon Kingdom Hearts (for his own purpose, nothing to do with Master Xehanort/Ansem SOD).

Roxas/Namine Birth - KH2: Xemnas gets Roxas and Namine, expanding the Organization. He decides that he will use Roxas to gather the hearts, but he really wants Sora (hence he created Xion and used Namine to manipulate Sora). He also tries using Riku through the replica program, but he isn't able to get a Riku that wields a keyblade. Xemnas gets killed right when he summons Kingdom Hearts.

Post KH2 - KH 3: Master Xehanort is recompleted. He realizes that he now has the means to assemble 13 darknesses (himself) after the research inadvertently conducted by Xemnas (the replica program). He tells his past selves to meet for the events of KH3D. He also has information about the 7 pure lights instead of keyblade wielders, so he decides to gather up the princesses of heart again.

Writing that all out, I feel like Master Xehanort used what Ansem and Xemnas found on their own and realized he could use it to accomplish his ultimate goal of the X-Blade and the real Kingdom Hearts. The thing that really explains how all of this conveniently worked out for Master Xehanort is Luxu. He was there since BbS and presumably waiting/looking for the person that would be able to pull it all off. With the ReMIND trailer, it seems that even the Master of Masters was in on manipulating Xehanort to make it happen by putting in the initial thoughts of the world needing to be reset.

I'm hoping that ReMIND actually goes in more about Master Xehanort. The more I think about it, the more he actually seems like a character that was manipulated -- even when he thought he was the ultimate manipulator and schemer.
 

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Writing that all out, I feel like Master Xehanort used what Ansem and Xemnas found on their own and realized he could use it to accomplish his ultimate goal of the X-Blade and the real Kingdom Hearts. The thing that really explains how all of this conveniently worked out for Master Xehanort is Luxu. He was there since BbS and presumably waiting/looking for the person that would be able to pull it all off. With the ReMIND trailer, it seems that even the Master of Masters was in on manipulating Xehanort to make it happen by putting in the initial thoughts of the world needing to be reset.
That's actually a really good way of putting it. To add on to that a bit, I feel another peice of evidence that Luxu was the one setting up the dominos to fall in place for MX, is the relationship Luxu and Young Xehanort were hinted to have. We see them having a rather heavy one-on-one discussion in the end of the Re coded cutscenes featured in the 2.5 remix, and then again we see the two synergize to drag Sora into sleep toward the very end of DDD (after which, YX references Xigbar by name during his talk with Sora, and is the only character in the game to do so as far as I can recall). The thing that really got me thinking though, was how the two were the only ones to tell Sora "find the hearts joined to yours."

Xigbar/Luxu hints at what may eventually befall Sora if he restored his fallen comrades, which foreshadows the ending of the game. "In fact, your reward might just be around the corner." This heavily implies that he specifically wanted Sora to end up.... Where ever it is he ends up in the Secret movie, which is also the same place the MoM was shown to be located. That's not a coincidence.

In Young Xehanort's case, let's just get this out the way first, the very fact that he said this line heavily implies that he also likely knows exactly what Xigbar does, and pushes Sora to meet that specific fate as well. Also, when he tells Sora this during the Toy Box storyline, he does so not in the loud, brash way Xigbar does, but rather in a soft, almost secretive sounding whisper. Not only this, but he's also the only Xehanort incarnation that seems to know about the power of waking, what it does, exactly how it shouldn't be used, and what the consequences are if one uses it too much (which he even further implies upon his death). He makes this clear during his private talk with Sora, after the latter just defeated the Liche. All of this heavily points to the idea that Young Xehanort was also in on Luxu's plan, and conspired with him in order to push things to a conclusion that would ultimately benefit his specific end goals. Goals that seemingly go beyond anything even Master Xehanort himself had planned out.

So I guess the irony here, in addition to the Xigbar twist, is that even Yong Xehanort had ulterior motives when working under his older self. Go figure.
 
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Xigbar/Luxu hints at what may eventually befall Sora if he restored his fallen comrades, which foreshadows the ending of the game. "In fact, your reward might just be around the corner." This heavily implies that he specifically wanted Sora to end up.... Where ever it is he ends up in the Secret movie, which is also the same place the MoM was shown to be located. That's not a coincidence.
Someone on Tumblr brought this up and suggested that Xehanort "shattering" Kairi or whatever that was he did to her was Xigbar/Luxu's suggestion. Because as people have pointed out, Sora doesn't need further motivation to fight MX, but he does need a reason to keep misusing the Power of Waking so that he'll end up where the MoM is.
 

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Hmm... I mean, it's not totally out of the question that Ansem would become bitter about being used as Master Xehanort's pawn. He'd be trying to defy his current fate, as well as his eventual one, which could definitely be a contributing factor for him burning himself out in the end. Better to just let it all finally end than hopelessly try to drag things out ad infinitum.
Adding to that, Ansem comes off as remembering all that's happened ("What...a journey you and I have had...") Which is confusing since he had to have been taken from before his defeat in KH1, so really shouldn't. Maybe Nomura should have just had his heart return to Xehanort, who yanks it out to slap into a replica if the when Ansem comes from is going to be ignored (same with Xemnas.)

But that'd also explain why he becomes emotionally burned out. He has always just...been around, and became tired of it all.

Looking through the cutscenes again, my original line of thought probably stems from when he mentions to AtW about Subject X holding "a mystery to unravel; one concerning the battle we seek between light and darkness." It sounds like he's talking specifically about the KH3 war. He never once he mentions or implies about his fate in KH1, and if he was looking for her to defy that, then why not just say so?

Probably has to do with Nomura not wanting to reveal anything until the very end....

Yeah. One of KH3's primary issues is it's severe lack of complete closure surrounding the vast majority of it's cast and previously established elements. The game leaned far more into brand new ideas and concepts, and in some cases actively avoided drawing from the history and identity of the series (that it's supposed to be concluding).
EDIT: Definitely in trying to appeal to newcomers. Which finales should never EVER do.

Even with SoD, Xemnas, and Xehanort, there's SO much that was left completely unaddressed and unconcluded. And considering this is last time we'll ever be seeing them, it's almost 100% guaranteed whatever was left unexplored or unanswered will never really get addressed. Which is a crying shame, and a large part of the reason why the series pretty much ended here for me. Because I can't exactly move on when there's still so much left to be done, to put it another way.
KH3 really, really should have been focused on the norts and giving them closer instead of us watching the good guys do nothing for most of the game.

EDIT: The series itself can never truly move on either with it dragging this massive pile of unresolved plotlines on its heels.

*more grammer edits*
 
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KeybladeLordSora

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To be completely honest, Ansem's and Xemnas' bit in the end should have been what KINGDOM HEARTS III was to be all about: closure of the Xehanort Saga. Ansem and Xemnas provided that, and finally seeing MX pass away alongside Eraqus marked the end of an era that started more than 13 years ago in-universe with Birth by Sleep. But a lot of focus went into developing the Disney worlds and hyping the Foretellers Saga that the Xehanort Saga felt underappreciated.
This is making me feel once more that working with much newer properties like Frozen, and Disney having a bigger hand in the development, came at a bit of a cost. But I could be wrong and I'm just overthinking.

As for the Foreteller Saga, I don't really have much to say on that matter.
 

Twilight Lumiair

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Someone on Tumblr brought this up and suggested that Xehanort "shattering" Kairi or whatever that was he did to her was Xigbar/Luxu's suggestion. Because as people have pointed out, Sora doesn't need further motivation to fight MX, but he does need a reason to keep misusing the Power of Waking so that he'll end up where the MoM is.
I wouldn't be surprised. Larxene did say that going after the Black Box was Xigbar's idea. Likely in an attempt to waste time, otherwise I don't see why he wouldn't have just handed over the Black Box himself.

In regards to Sora's motivation, he technically did threaten to stop fighting just before the fight against SoD, Xemnas, and Young Xehanort. So MX could've been reacting to that when he killed Kairi.

Adding to that, Ansem comes off as remembering all that's happened ("What...a journey you and I have had...") Which is confusing since he had to have been taken from before his defeat in KH1, so really shouldn't. Maybe Nomura should have just had his heart return to Xehanort, who yanks it out to slap into a replica if the when Ansem comes from is going to be ignored (same with Xemnas.)

But that'd also explain why he becomes emotionally burned out. He has always just...been around, and became tired of it all.
That was something that always confused me too. The only real problem I think with having SoD and Xemnas' hearts come from the present, is it effectively negates the need for Young Xehanort to time travel, since those two (and Repliku, sort of) were the only Seekers to come from the past. That said, wouldn't it be interesting if they're hearts both ended up inside Terra's instead? Seeing as how it was his body from which they originated. I know that would end up being pretty weird, but the thought of Terra having all of apprentice Xehanort's memories is a fascinating idea to ponder.

Ansem SoD is kinda like those people who've grown bored of life and seek one last moment of thrill before they die. I've seen it in a lot of similar games actually, but I never expected to see the idea pop up here.

Looking through the cutscenes again, my original line of thought probably stems from when he mentions to AtW about Subject X holding "a mystery to unravel; one concerning the battle we seek between light and darkness." It sounds like he's talking specifically about the KH3 war. He never once he mentions or implies about his fate in KH1, and if he was looking for her to defy that, then why not just say so?

Probably has to do with Nomura not wanting to reveal anything until the very end....
Yeah, I'm honestly not sure. His actions don't always line up one to one with the motive we're given. Maybe he just didn't want to admit it so openly until it was already over anyway? Like... He didn't necessarily need to bring that up to AtW or Aqua, but like you said, it's most likely just Nomura trying to hold his cards close to his chest (like he needlessly did with Xion, which destroyed her impact and screentime in this game).


Definitely in trying to appeal to newcomers. Which finales should never EVER do.
Facts. This should be a rule of thumb for most story finales to follow. Especially ones that have so many things they need to conclude.

KH3 really, really should have been focused on the norts and giving them closer instead of us watching the good guys do nothing for most of the game.
In a sense, yeah, most definitely. There should've been a much better balance of focus, but that would require a level of cohesive storytelling this game simply didn't have.

The series itself can never truly move on either with it dragging this massive pile of unresolved plotlines on its heels.
Technically, it could, but it really shouldn't be. It's all a matter of whether or not it let's go, but even if it does, everyone who's still invested in those unresolved plotlines will get left behind with the pile, while those who never cared much about that can just keep following the series onward for the sake of some sort of entertainment. And that cycle will rinse and repeat till the whole thing just leaves a messy trail of disapointment and frustration behind. At least, I would imagine that's how it'd go.
 

FudgemintGuardian

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That was something that always confused me too. The only real problem I think with having SoD and Xemnas' hearts come from the present, is it effectively negates the need for Young Xehanort to time travel, since those two (and Repliku, sort of) were the only Seekers to come from the past. That said, wouldn't it be interesting if they're hearts both ended up inside Terra's instead? Seeing as how it was his body from which they originated. I know that would end up being pretty weird, but the thought of Terra having all of apprentice Xehanort's memories is a fascinating idea to ponder.
I. Would. Love that! Plus it'd give Terra something going forward.

Yeah, I'm honestly not sure. His actions don't always line up one to one with the motive we're given. Maybe he just didn't want to admit it so openly until it was already over anyway? Like... He didn't necessarily need to bring that up to AtW or Aqua, but like you said, it's most likely just Nomura trying to hold his cards close to his chest (like he needlessly did with Xion, which destroyed her impact and screentime in this game).
Funnily, it's super duper likely that Nomura put everyone's return and plotlines at the very end thinking that's where the most impact would be.


Facts. This should be a rule of thumb for most story finales to follow. Especially ones that have so many things they need to conclude.
And let's be real here for a sec. Anyone who watches/reads a series finale without prior knowledge of the story and complains it made no sense or wasn't emotional without said knowledge should be punched with a fish.

It's super when a series gets newcomers, but they shouldn't be catered to in the sense of dropping or dumbing down plot threads that's been being built up for years in a poor attempt to make it more appealing to those without previous knowledge. For one, it makes the longtime fans who put in the big time and big money big angry. Secondly, if the first KH game new people choose to play is the dang Xehanort finale, chances are they're not here for the story, so catering to them like that just becomes a waste.

Technically, it could, but it really shouldn't be. It's all a matter of whether or not it let's go, but even if it does, everyone who's still invested in those unresolved plotlines will get left behind with the pile, while those who never cared much about that can just keep following the series onward for the sake of some sort of entertainment. And that cycle will rinse and repeat till the whole thing just leaves a messy trail of disapointment and frustration behind. At least, I would imagine that's how it'd go.
Well, okay, yeah. It technically could, yes. :LOL: But it's like you said. And even if the story lets go of the unresolved plotlines, the fact that there is unresolved plotlines will always linger around.
 
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SweetYetSalty

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Since Xigbar's name has been brought up on here a few times, I'm curious about his involvement in the old organization. In DDD it seems he knows full well what the real goal was for the group to find 13 vessels for Xehanort. I'm willing to bet he's always known that. Whether or not Xemnas was fully aware of that plan is still in question. And in my post on "Organization replacing their dead members" topic it was Xigbar who said they were always looking for new members to join. This is shown in the KH2FM video of him saying he found Marluxia.

So I wonder why is it he didn't push for Xemnas to keep their ranks at 13 if he always knew the goal? Because the original Organization XIII did not require 13 Nobodies to achieve their heart collection goal, they just needed a Keyblade wielder. You had guys like Saix and Axel killing off members and hurting that 13 number. So I wonder why Xigbar wasn't concerned about not having 13 vessels. He doesn't have the amnesia excuse, if anything he knows everything, more then Xemnas. A very curious thought.
 

KeybladeLordSora

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Since Xigbar's name has been brought up on here a few times, I'm curious about his involvement in the old organization. In DDD it seems he knows full well what the real goal was for the group to find 13 vessels for Xehanort. I'm willing to bet he's always known that. Whether or not Xemnas was fully aware of that plan is still in question. And in my post on "Organization replacing their dead members" topic it was Xigbar who said they were always looking for new members to join. This is shown in the KH2FM video of him saying he found Marluxia.

So I wonder why is it he didn't push for Xemnas to keep their ranks at 13 if he always knew the goal? Because the original Organization XIII did not require 13 Nobodies to achieve their heart collection goal, they just needed a Keyblade wielder. You had guys like Saix and Axel killing off members and hurting that 13 number. So I wonder why Xigbar wasn't concerned about not having 13 vessels. He doesn't have the amnesia excuse, if anything he knows everything, more then Xemnas. A very curious thought.
I guess he wasn't all that concerned because of the Replica Program. Vexen likely made enough Replicas before his demise in CoM to fill out the empty ranks.
 
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