Anyone else irked a bit at 0.2?

[Deleted member]

anyway, i'm just kidding. to be honest though, the endless negativity around the series and in this community in particular is just getting kind of exhausting. most of the time people aren't even backing their opinions up with arguments and proof from the games. they just lob off vague and absolutist statements, shutting down discussions more than promoting them. and it's infectious. everything being negative and cynical just makes more people negative and cynical, often at times people just parroting the same talking points over and over again. the balance is just completely out of whack. i don't think the series should be free from criticism, of course, there are very real flaws worth discussing. but like, real strong and constructive critique isn't found in snarky one-liners or hyperbolic language. it's found in taking the time and care to make an argument and back it up, and providing possible solutions as well. it's also found in acknowledging when the series does something right or when it improves on something too.

this is the series' anniversary year, and, i don't know, looking around these forums it's almost like people are determined to not enjoy it anymore. i would have hoped that this anniversary year would be a return to positivity, to possibility, to hope. acknowledging the good parts of the series, the highlights, things that meant something to us personally, that felt well done. fun discussions of where the series could go, or what it could do, or even just creative alternatives. community activities, like zines or everyone brainstorming what a world's inclusion in kh3 could bring in terms of narrative, gameplay, themes, etc. but it's mostly just people shitting on everything, lol. and yeah i've definitely played into that myself, too. i think we all have, really. but is it really worth it? does it make this forum a better place to be in?

it's probably foolish at this point, but i always thought this place could be more than that. i imagined a place where people came and they legitimately felt enriched by doing so. they learned more. they considered more. they created more. i saw a place where the norm was insightful discussion, in cultivating a culture of positivity and creativity. a place where people could learn from well-reasoned articles and discussions. a place that taught newcomers things like literary criticism, game criticism, the fundamentals of game development, of story structure. a place that illuminated the development of the series and the people making it. a place that sought to be a beacon in the fandom. this is possibly the fandom's single biggest site and little is being done with that. instead it mostly has a reputation of being elitist, cynical and repellent. i look to other fandoms and you see them creating things. amazing fanworks (fic, art, games, songs, etc). you see them reaching out and doing fundraisers for charity and important events. i see so little of that in this fandom, which is especially strange given the series' themes of hope and how important it is to connect to others and help others.

i dont think things have to be this way. i think this can be a positive and thoughtful community, while still engaging in well-reasoned criticism, too. but it isn't going to just happen. it will take hard work and commitment and people willing and wanting to see it become a reality. i think it would be worth it, but that's just me.

anyway sorry for going on a very random rant, it's just something that's been on my mind a lot.

 

[Absent]

I agree Audo especially with the one liners and hyperbolic statements. It's why I only interact with passive aggressive remarks and jokes. I don't even bring up which game/character is my favorite(technically I don't have one). Everyone thinks their favorites are unpopular and vice versa and boy the cycle doesn't end.

EDIT: I suck on mobile.

 

[Launchpad]

anyway, i'm just kidding. to be honest though, the endless negativity around the series and in this community in particular is just getting kind of exhausting. most of the time people aren't even backing their opinions up with arguments and proof from the games. they just lob off vague and absolutist statements, shutting down discussions more than promoting them. and it's infectious. everything being negative and cynical just makes more people negative and cynical, often at times people just parroting the same talking points over and over again. the balance is just completely out of whack. i don't think the series should be free from criticism, of course, there are very real flaws worth discussing. but like, real strong and constructive critique isn't found in snarky one-liners or hyperbolic language. it's found in taking the time and care to make an argument and back it up, and providing possible solutions as well. it's also found in acknowledging when the series does something right or when it improves on something too.

this is the series' anniversary year, and, i don't know, looking around these forums it's almost like people are determined to not enjoy it anymore. i would have hoped that this anniversary year would be a return to positivity, to possibility, to hope. acknowledging the good parts of the series, the highlights, things that meant something to us personally, that felt well done. fun discussions of where the series could go, or what it could do, or even just creative alternatives. community activities, like zines or everyone brainstorming what a world's inclusion in kh3 could bring in terms of narrative, gameplay, themes, etc. but it's mostly just people shitting on everything, lol. and yeah i've definitely played into that myself, too. i think we all have, really. but is it really worth it? does it make this forum a better place to be in?

it's probably foolish at this point, but i always thought this place could be more than that. i imagined a place where people came and they legitimately felt enriched by doing so. they learned more. they considered more. they created more. i saw a place where the norm was insightful discussion, in cultivating a culture of positivity and creativity. a place where people could learn from well-reasoned articles and discussions. a place that taught newcomers things like literary criticism, game criticism, the fundamentals of game development, of story structure. a place that illuminated the development of the series and the people making it. a place that sought to be a beacon in the fandom. this is possibly the fandom's single biggest site and little is being done with that. instead it mostly has a reputation of being elitist, cynical and repellent. i look to other fandoms and you see them creating things. amazing fanworks (fic, art, games, songs, etc). you see them reaching out and doing fundraisers for charity and important events. i see so little of that in this fandom, which is especially strange given the series' themes of hope and how important it is to connect to others and help others.

i dont think things have to be this way. i think this can be a positive and thoughtful community, while still engaging in well-reasoned criticism, too. but it isn't going to just happen. it will take hard work and commitment and people willing and wanting to see it become a reality. i think it would be worth it, but that's just me.

anyway sorry for going on a very random rant, it's just something that's been on my mind a lot.

I get what you're saying fam, but it's like this--

discussing the flaws of a series opens up a conversational avenue of debate, discussion of solution, or just regular conversation

discussing what-if's opens up a conversational avenue of 'I'd like this' or 'that wouldn't work' or 'they did this so they might do this'

PRAISING the games is sort of a non-starter, unfortunately. There's not much I can say to someone who says "I love KH it's so great" because that's generic-- sure, they can get more in depth but it still leaves less to discuss in my opinion.

I really enjoy discussing the games on a technical, presentation, and mechanical level-- but that often leads me to picking apart the games and I don't tend to sugarcoat it because it's a video game and I don't care lol

I think discussing one series on a forum for years is bound to result in cyclical discussion and boredom, which turns to annoyance for sure.

I'm not saying anyone else is doing the opposite, but it's much more satisfying for me to cheer for KH when it gets something right as opposed to forcing myself to clap for everything

 

[kirabook]

If my posts about KH come off super serious, well, they're really not. I can't recall a time where I got into a serious argument over KH with anyone. As I already said, it's kind of my favorite thing ever. Any criticism I give it is playing devil's advocate or just something I want to improve for the series that's not even necessarily required (lack of NPC's for example)

My statement about Coded and Chi wasn't to boost up Days. I don't typically tell anyone this, but I mostly ignored Days existed almost up until 1.5 Remix had been released. I had never watched a full playthrough or movie cutscene before that but I did know the important plot lines. I love Roxas (I like all the characters), but I had little interest in what seemed to be 358 days of menial missions and a controversial character that can be argued didn't need to be added at all. Despite not liking Days very much, one of my favorite emotional scenes is Roxas demanding to know who he is and his connection to Sora to Axel. Jesse did a great job voice acting that part. A++. I also like that Days has a lot of humor, stuff that is better delivered in text form than it would be in voice acting probably.

What I mean by Coded and Chi shouldn't have been important to the story, I mean they could have just been real side games. Games with no value to the plot but fun to play. Why did Nomura need to sprinkle important plot points in games that were originally only for mobile/browser and region locked to Japan? Why couldn't they have been fun little non-canon adventures in the KH lore? I'm well aware that for people who have played Coded and Days, Coded is the better game while Days has the more interesting story. Chi is alright, I'm personally struggling right now because it turns out mobile games really are the bain to my existence.

Another point is that, Days is pretty self contained. It introduces very little that new. It has a start and end. Coded and Chi... well, more specifically Chi, it could have started and ended with the Keyblade War, but now it's somehow connected to the main plot of Kingdom hearts in ways we don't understand yet... on one hand I kind of groan. But on the other bigger side I think, "Hey, I can't wait to see what this is about, and maybe it's Nomura building up for the next big arc after Xehanort!"

So the reason I give this criticism about Chi and Coded are not because of their gameplay. I just hope that in the next saga, Nomura will feel comfortable having a game or two that is not retrofitted into being important to the main plot. It's ok Nomura, people will probably play them even if they aren't important.

 

[Rydgea]

I don't think anyone here needs to get sensitive about the attitude of the community towards the series, because if you read between the lines, you know even being here it's because of a love for Kingdom Hearts. It's counter-productive to jerk over the series (and we know the love it exists every time a new screen comes out and there's clamour, which is great); there needs to be perspective. I embrace both praise and criticism. However, when people just say their opinion is objective (which is absolute ignorance) or say something dramatic (i.e. Days is the WORST. AWFUL. JUST UGH!) with zero intellect behind the discussion, I feel it's necessary to play devil's advocate.

I'm not saying anyone else is doing the opposite, but it's much more satisfying for me to cheer for KH when it gets something right as opposed to forcing myself to clap for everything

Maybe it's just me, but with you, for example (and I'm not trying to create a moment), even if I don't agree with your opinions on something, I feel like you are generally positive in your critique and the way you address others, and I feel that it comes from a place of genuinely wanting to see the series for all its potential. It's good to see.

There are definitely other members on here who I feel create more of a negative vibe, because they shame other peoples opinions, or dogpile on top of an already made point, but I don't think that just because someone's opinion is different than mine they're being negative. However, it's when people belittle you because of your opinions is where I see a shift in tone.

 

[VoidGear.]

I never understood why criticizing a game, no matter how much, started equalling "being all negative". It's not like the people who aren't super-happy with, e.g., 2.8, suddenly hate the whole series.

 

[Launchpad]

I don't think anyone here needs to get sensitive about the attitude of the community towards the series, because if you read between the lines, you know even being here it's because of a love for Kingdom Hearts. It's counter-productive to jerk over the series (and we know the love it exists every time a new screen comes out and there's clamour, which is great); there needs to be perspective. I embrace both praise and criticism. However, when people just say their opinion is objective (which is absolute ignorance) or say something dramatic (i.e. Days is the WORST. AWFUL. JUST UGH!) with zero intellect behind the discussion, I feel it's necessary to play devil's advocate.



Maybe it's just me, but with you, for example (and I'm not trying to create a moment), even if I don't agree with your opinions on something, I feel like you are generally positive in your critique and the way you address others, and I feel that it comes from a place of genuinely wanting to see the series for all its potential. It's good to see.

There are definitely other members on here who I feel create more of a negative vibe, because they shame other peoples opinions, or dogpile on top of an already made point, but I don't think that just because someone's opinion is different than mine they're being negative. However, it's when people belittle you because of your opinions is where I see a shift in tone.

thanks good buddy. glad to know somebody likes my extra spicy sauce

 

[Grono]

thanks good buddy. glad to know somebody likes my extra spicy sauce

Spoiler Show

 

[DarkosOverlord]

I never understood why criticizing a game, no matter how much, started equalling "being all negative". It's not like the people who aren't super-happy with, e.g., 2.8, suddenly hate the whole series.

Indeed.
This is kinda like "I don't want to take part in the shipping war so I'll just spam comments about Sora loving everyone".
It's fine wanting to be the pacifier, it's wrong to just silencing all just because it creates attrition.

 

[palizinhas]

I dunno, I feel like coming into this fandom last year, my general opinion on it - and especially on this specifc website - is that people tend to take things too seriously. It's fine to criticize stuff, I have said that I wasn't too happy with the characterization of half the characters in Back Cover, and I also had issues with 0.2, and with loads of stuff on previous games, but it's within people's rights to have different opinions. By which I mean constantly treating subjective stuff as Fact, which I HAVE seen over the past year multiple times, is an issue. So in that sense I do get that there's been a lot of negativity, and a lot of unnecessary negativity at that.

But criticism of something you like generates discussion, and as long as all the parties involved are respectful, the arguments can also be rewarding, in a sense. If I were to go anywhere and see nothing but forced positivity when a thing I like has mistepped, it wouldn't feel anywhere near as rewarding as I feel about the stuff I'm really passionate about discussing.

The real fine line here is respect, and that's... well.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

The thing is, people have seen others treating subjective stuff as facts, just as I saw others treating facts as subjective stuff.
It's not like saying "it's my opinion" makes everything one says legit or true. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but there are wrong opinions, often born from the inability to see flaws in that game or character due to personal preference or lacking knowledge.

Overly inflated example: I can't say "Sora has green hair and that's my opinion" and expect no one to correct me, cause I do have a wrong opinion.

 

[Muke]

The thing is, people have seen others treating subjective stuff as facts, just as I saw others treating facts as subjective stuff.
It's not like saying "it's my opinion" makes everything one says legit or true. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but there are wrong opinions, often born from the inability to see flaws in that game or character due to personal preference or lacking knowledge.

Overly inflated example: I can't say "Sora has green hair and that's my opinion" and expect no one to correct me, cause I do have a wrong opinion.

Idk if this is directed at me because I kept saying "imo" in this thread, if so: I'm saying it the whole time so people know I don't treat it as fact, not to make my opinion legit or so. If this wasn't directed at me, just ignore it.

 

[Rydgea]

Overly inflated example: I can't say "Sora has green hair and that's my opinion" and expect no one to correct me, cause I do have a wrong opinion.

That is not an opinion though. That's being ignorant. Saying something to the extent of, "Sora's eyes look green in this shot, lighting, etc." IS a valid opinion. However, just adding in addendum, "it's my opinion" doesn't make "alternative facts" facts. Sora's eyes are blue. We know this to be true. #kellyanneconway

I don't know where to go with this because you'd need to point out an actual "wrong opinion" in this thread, but regardless of how unanimous people's personal feelings are towards things they are still opinions, majority rule or not. You can pick something apart for filth in discussion, yet still enjoy the said product, even after addressing criticism. That is not ignorance. Saying -insert variable- thing is great (despite it's flaws) IS a valid opinion, because that person can have a good experience with something that you aren't able to, and it doesn't make either party wrong.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

That is not an opinion though. That's being ignorant.

Ignorance doesn't just apply to blatantly obvious facts like one's eye colour: people can be ignorant about writing, pacing, game developing. For there are general standards and categories pretty much every manmade work can be evaluated by.
When the "majority rule" is supported by facts, it kinda stops being a bunch of people using sheer numbers to prove they're right. It's more like people have found a rule almost everyone can abide by.

I could do an example for many things, from KH, a ps2 game that thought using L2/R2 to move around the camera was a good idea, to DDD who thought the same about overly complicated time travel and many more, but I feel taking a full stroke on every poor idea the saga had would be a) too long and out of place, b) effectively being a Negative Nancy.

Now, I'm not the smartest nor the most authoritative to actually claim this or that game utterly fails in this or that, but after hearing many comments, evaluations from actually trustworthy sources I think we can discern if some statements are equally good opinions or not. That doesn't just apply to what a poor fan said, but even just to some things Nomura does.
Then, we can say nothing is really objective bring this discussion to a philosophical level, but what would be the point.

I was one of the first ones to say "You can like something even if it's bad", (and I spent yesterday night getting mocked in BB's stream for linking DDD but that's another story), my posts should only be addressed to those who say "I like this thing, therefore it's perfect. You proved me it's not? Nah, it's my opinion and you're not a true fan".

 

[BlackOsprey]

The thing is, people have seen others treating subjective stuff as facts, just as I saw others treating facts as subjective stuff.
It's not like saying "it's my opinion" makes everything one says legit or true. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but there are wrong opinions, often born from the inability to see flaws in that game or character due to personal preference or lacking knowledge.

Overly inflated example: I can't say "Sora has green hair and that's my opinion" and expect no one to correct me, cause I do have a wrong opinion.

Uh, no. I think the BIG problem here is that we can't tell the difference between opinion and fact. =__=

 

[Muke]

Uh, no. I think the BIG problem here is that we can't tell the difference between opinion and fact. =__=

It's really this.

There's a difference between "I like it so should you/I hate it so should you" and "I like it/hate it because of this this and that".
People should also stop belittling other people's opinions. Discussion is fine, it's fun even. But treating one's opinion as more superior instead of accepting that there can be more than one is just awful

 

[Chuman]

Uh, no. I think the BIG problem here is that we can't tell the difference between opinion and fact. =__=

The game is well made, opinion. The game is short, fact. Aqua had great development, opinion. Aqua was the main character, fact. Mickey was extremely helpful, opinion. Mickey looked great shirtless, fact.

Facts get warped and manipulated gradually by opinion whenever it changes hand, so people insert their own personal bias and distort the reality of the situation to their own views. It's how the media works, every news outlet has the facts but they all vary slightly based around what the head honchos believe. We can argue all day about what works and what doesn't in our opinions as long as we get the facts straight.

 

[Rydgea]

Ignorance doesn't just apply to blatantly obvious facts like one's eye colour: people can be ignorant about writing, pacing, game developing. For there are general standards and categories pretty much every manmade work can be evaluated by.
When the "majority rule" is supported by facts, it kinda stops being a bunch of people using sheer numbers to prove they're right. It's more like people have found a rule almost everyone can abide by.

I could do an example for many things, from KH, a ps2 game that thought using L2/R2 to move around the camera was a good idea, to DDD who thought the same about overly complicated time travel and many more, but I feel taking a full stroke on every poor idea the saga had would be a) too long and out of place, b) effectively being a Negative Nancy.

Now, I'm not the smartest nor the most authoritative to actually claim this or that game utterly fails in this or that, but after hearing many comments, evaluations from actually trustworthy sources I think we can discern if some statements are equally good opinions or not. That doesn't just apply to what a poor fan said, but even just to some things Nomura does.
Then, we can say nothing is really objective bring this discussion to a philosophical level, but what would be the point.

I was one of the first ones to say "You can like something even if it's bad", (and I spent yesterday night getting mocked in BB's stream for linking DDD but that's another story), my posts should only be addressed to those who say "I like this thing, therefore it's perfect. You proved me it's not? Nah, it's my opinion and you're not a true fan".

I understand where your coming from, but at the end of the day it's very condescending (and it's at this point during discussions that the negativity emerges), when someone is told, "It's okay if you like it, but it's bad." It implies they have poor standards, because you've graded it, according to aforementioned trustworthy sources, to be on another level. Flippant remarks like, "I don't get you guys. This was so much better than that." grates even further, because it's apparent the enjoyment of said object evades them, that they can't wrap their mind around another person's way of thinking.

I can take into consideration if a movie got two thumbs up, or a game got a Famitsu rating of 40/40, a female character passed the Bechdel test, get all my news from the Onion (joking obv), but do I need them to dictate whether a product is good or not? No. They are not the end all be all, and even IF a majority summed up valid reasons to NOT like something, I am still empowered to formulate a differing opinion.

Kingdom Hearts as a series is so riddled with problems, that as a whole it could be seen as bad. Should it be considered bad though? I'm not going to tell anyone their opinion on the matter. Anyone can take from it what they want. If you think it's bad, even if you enjoy it, still doesn't necessarily make it bad for someone else.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

Uh, no. I think the BIG problem here is that we can't tell the difference between opinion and fact. =__=

I, uh... yeah that's...
*re-reads his own post*
...how is it not what I just said?

I understand where your coming from, but at the end of the day it's very condescending (and it's at this point during discussions that the negativity emerges), when someone is told, "It's okay if you like it, but it's bad." It implies they have poor standards, because you've graded it, according to aforementioned trustworthy sources, to be on another level. Flippant remarks like, "I don't get you guys. This was so much better than that." grates even further, because it's apparent the enjoyment of said object evades them, that they can't wrap their mind around another person's way of thinking.

I can take into consideration if a movie got two thumbs up, or a game got a Famitsu rating of 40/40, a female character passed the Bechdel test, get all my news from the Onion (joking obv), but do I need them to dictate whether a product is good or not? No. They are not the end all be all, and even IF a majority summed up valid reasons to NOT like something, I am still empowered to formulate a differing opinion.

Kingdom Hearts as a series is so riddled with problems, that as a whole it could be seen as bad. Should it be considered bad though? I'm not going to tell anyone their opinion on the matter. Anyone can take from it what they want. If you think it's bad, even if you enjoy it, still doesn't necessarily make it bad for someone else.

I understand and share not being mean for the sake of being mean and not trying to force other to change, but someone who likes a pretty much confirmed bad standard and gets offended if being told so kinda needs to grow up a bit.
I wouldn't go as far as mocking them for it, but c'mon. It's not that I will lose sleep if one can't accept a negative judgement, but if they can't do that in a videogame discussion, I see a though life ahead of them.

This is starting to be about the definition of bad: no one decided that bad means "never watch it or enjoy it": bad things are popular. There are movies MADE to be bad and enjoyed by a market of people.
I at the very least use "bad" only to point out a production value, not as something that shouldn't be enjoyed.

 

[Grono]

Yeah, the "you can like it even if it's bad" retort comes across as kind of condescending. I'm not taking it to offense, but I can see where Rydgea is coming from when he says that.

I know what you mean; "you can still like something even if you see the flaws in it", or "your favorite game doesn't have to be the perfect game, it just has to be perfect for you". You could have phrased that better is all

I love Kingdom Hearts, but it is by no means perfect. I still love it, though, and no one is going to take that away from me any time soon. If you don't like it, that's fine; if you think it's trash, cool. That's just my opinion.

This fanbase treats opinion as fact sometimes.

To give you a dated example (older members will remember this), there was this member named Larxene012 who had a fan theory that Aerith was the 7th princess of light and the scene where Sora releases Kairi's heart in the original game was just her casting her heart out at the same time as a diversion. What was her reason for this? Well, she believed that Xehanort, instead of trying to incite the keyblade war with the threat of harming the Princesses of Light, was actually just going to directly go for the Princesses of Heart in Kingdom Hearts III, and that Kairi therefore could not be a guardian without being a princess of Light and vice versa. Therefore, she couldn't be a Princess of Light since she was going to be a guardian of light, and a twist would be revealed where it was, in fact, Aerith that was the princess of light the whole time and she replaces Kairi's role as a princess. How would that explain Kairi's inexplicable light powers from the original game, and even the second game a little? I don't know, Aerith's magic I guess?

Either way, the reason why she was criticized so much for this theory is because she misread objective facts we knew about in the series and added opinions of her own and confused them with fact. You see, she thought there was an established rule that guardians of light and princesses of light could not be one in the same, due to the 7 pieces of light being scattered; furthermore, she believed that Xehanort was directly targeting the princesses of light in the next game, NOT the keyblade wielders. She thought he just wanted kingdom hearts, she didn't realize that he wanted to incite a war as well. This was a combination of a misreading of facts (a misinterpretation of the source material) and the "chemical X" of her fan theories and fan interpretations of scenes that mixed into a deadly and toxic theory, with a huge controversy and argument surrounding it, and this is what we need to watch out for.

This is an extreme example, but the topic of understanding objective, fact-based source material is very important, because instances like this do happen every once in a while, and people need to make sure not to mix their personal opinions of the series into their understanding of the Kingdom Hearts universe.

EDIT: I just realized that I said princess of light almost the entire time in that post instead of princess of heart. I'm hot trash xD