Antisocial Personality Disorder.

[stephaknee]

A good chuck of criminal's are currently diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder (wiki).

And while I'm not technically supposed to reproduce these, I can't find a source you don't have to pay to see, here's a graph my professor put together to show the correlation between gray matter in the prefrontal cortex (the most anterior region of your brain, behind the forehead area).

The prefrontal cortex, among many things, is believed to control social cognition, morals, empathy, etc. (Google Phineas Gage, if you don't know his story to see a good example of what happens with prefrontal damage). I don't know the exact story, but I do know that, recently, a DA used the defense that his client wasn't as fault-- the gray matter deficiencies impaired his moral judgment. And while the jury called BS, I think that, eventually, an argument may be made.

I also wonder how this could effect rehabilitation. If criminals are inclined to be criminals because of a deficiency at birth, can a social institution alone fix the problem?

[edit] Fixed the quality of the graph.

 

[Seeshinamaru13]

A good chuck of criminal's are currently diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder (wiki).

no offense, but... DUH!!!!

The prefrontal cortex, among many things, is believed to control social cognition, morals, empathy, etc. (Google Phineas Gage, if you don't know his story to see a good example of what happens with prefrontal damage). I don't know the exact story, but I do know that, recently, a DA used the defense that his client wasn't as fault-- the gray matter deficiencies impaired his moral judgment. And while the jury called BS, I think that, eventually, an argument may be made.

eventually... I'm sure you're right... but it's not going to be any time soon.

I also wonder how this could effect rehabilitation. If criminals are inclined to be criminals because of a deficiency at birth, can a social institution alone fix the problem?

here's what I think about this part... electric chair... well technically capital punishment... If they really can't be rehabilitated then we should just stop them from being in society. Yes... I know it sounds harsh but our population is expanding and we don't want it to be full of the wacko's do we?
Prisons are already up to their asses in prisoners... and there are still thousands of people, who should be in jail, on the streets. We don't have the space nor the funding for us to "possibly" rehabilitate these people and we won't have anything like that anytime soon.

People are actually experimenting on criminals to see how they tick... which is how they found this type of information... so maybe they will find a way to rehabilitate these people using medical means... but this isn't going to happen anytime soon.

 

[Beyer]

If it is something given from birth that makes them criminals that would explain why some people I know just don't stop doing illegal things no matter what consequences and karma come their way.
I think it shows how the world is always in balance and that their will always be good and bad, even if we don't like it.

 

[krexia]

I don't know the exact story, but I do know that, recently, a DA used the defense that his client wasn't as fault-- the gray matter deficiencies impaired his moral judgment. And while the jury called BS, I think that, eventually, an argument may be made.

To address that argument, we need to decide what the purpose of the justice system is. Is it to punish criminals, or protect society?

If the point of prison is to protect society, then having grey matter deficiencies wouldn't work as a defence. If the person is a threat to society, regardless of the reason, something needs to be done.

If the point of prison is to punish, though, things get interesting. After all, impaired judgement is considered a legitimate defence for the mentally disabled and for children.

If they really can't be rehabilitated then we should just stop them from being in society.

Why does that have to involve killing? We already have plenty of hospitals, homes and institutions for people with various illnesses or disorders who can't be rehabilitated.

We don't have the space nor the funding for us to "possibly" rehabilitate these people and we won't have anything like that anytime soon.

Imprisoning a person for life costs the state less than putting them to death. And a strong argument can be made that prisons are overfilled because far too many things are treated as criminal offences.

 

[Phoenix]

Imprisoning a person for life costs the state less than putting them to death.

Because we're stupid like that. Pretty sure a bullet costs less than keeping someone alive for 60 years =/

 

[Seeshinamaru13]

Why does that have to involve killing? We already have plenty of hospitals, homes and institutions for people with various illnesses or disorders who can't be rehabilitated.

because... I guess I think of it the same way I think of dog fighting... fighting dogs are usually euthanaized due to lack of space, funding, time, effort for something that may never be rehabilitated... the only difference is I like the dogs more.

Imprisoning a person for life costs the state less than putting them to death. And a strong argument can be made that prisons are overfilled because far too many things are treated as criminal offences.

yeah... but seriously what's the point in keeping them alive if their quality of life is diminished that much... they most likely may never be able to be re-introduced into society... also assuming the crimes are big enough... wouldn't you want a little more justice.
Prisons also never seem to put the right people away these days.
I like how so many things are treated as criminal offences... things like that are supposed to be better for society... also would you mind defining these things that possibly shouldn't be criminal offences.

 

[Ulti]

=
yeah... but seriously what's the point in keeping them alive if their quality of life is diminished that much... they most likely may never be able to be re-introduced into society... also assuming the crimes are big enough... wouldn't you want a little more justice.
Prisons also never seem to put the right people away these days.
I like how so many things are treated as criminal offences... things like that are supposed to be better for society... also would you mind defining these things that possibly shouldn't be criminal offences.

..Because as humans we have these things called morals? And since when does justice have to involve shedding blood? They may be criminals, but they are human. They have families, friends, a life. Why take that away because society gave up on them?

 

[Seeshinamaru13]

..Because as humans we have these things called morals? And since when does justice have to involve shedding blood? They may be criminals, but they are human. They have families, friends, a life. Why take that away because society gave up on them?

Technically... these people lack the same morals that we do... my personal opinion is that we are better off without them. That is at least for now and until they are able to do something a little better about the situation. Justice can be a very cruel thing... despite having good intentions. I really don't care if they are human... in fact that just makes me like them less. I suppose I can see where you are coming from but honestly their friends and family would probably be better off without them too. Also who is to say that their friends and family didn't contribute to them becoming as bad as they did... having less morals than most people is only half the problem... the other problem is the people connected to a person like this who didn't notice soon enough to get them help or who didn't raise them properly.

 

[Ulti]

Technically... these people lack the same morals that we do... my personal opinion is that we are better off without them. That is at least for now and until they are able to do something a little better about the situation. Justice can be a very cruel thing... despite having good intentions. I really don't care if they are human... in fact that just makes me like them less. I suppose I can see where you are coming from but honestly their friends and family would probably be better off without them too. Also who is to say that their friends and family didn't contribute to them becoming as bad as they did... having less morals than most people is only half the problem... the other problem is the people connected to a person like this who didn't notice soon enough to get them help or who didn't raise them properly.

Should I heil you now or after the genocide?

 

[Seeshinamaru13]

Should I heil you now or after the genocide?

...

Wow you're right I totally sound like Kira right now ;P
...but that's just my personal morals accompanied by my apathy for criminals... although to be honest I could never be the one do to something like this... although I would certainly turn a blind eye to it.

 

[krexia]

Because we're stupid like that. Pretty sure a bullet costs less than keeping someone alive for 60 years =/

No, because we're trying to avoid the morally deplorable risk of executing innocents, which requires a lot of time and money spent on proving intent and guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt. To make capital punishment cheaper you'd have to remove parts of the checks and balances that are there to keep things like <this> from happening.

yeah... but seriously what's the point in keeping them alive if their quality of life is diminished that much...they most likely may never be able to be re-introduced into society...

Plenty of reasons. First, the irrevocableness of capital punishment means mistakes can't be reversed. Second, if we're talking about removing people from society because of mental defects, there's the possibility that such conditions might be treatable in future. Third, many would argue that taking human life is categorically wrong when any other alternative exists. Fourth, "most likely" isn't good enough in my eyes when you have cases like <this> and <this> which prove that not every convicted murderer is a lost cause or detriment to society.

also assuming the crimes are big enough... wouldn't you want a little more justice.

There's a reason we don't let victims sentence criminals, and that's because we as societies believe that justice is not about vengeance.

also would you mind defining these things that possibly shouldn't be criminal offences.

In my opinion, the most obvious examples are sex work and possession of drugs for personal, recreational use.

Technically... these people lack the same morals that we do...

So it's okay for society to kill anyone who disagrees with the status quo? Or anyone who has a mental disorder that makes it difficult to lead a normal life?

 

[Seeshinamaru13]

In my opinion, the most obvious examples are sex work and possession of drugs for personal, recreational use.

what do you mean by sex work?

The drugs thing is something people should be convicted of... because most of the time it is linked with various other and more dangerous illegal activity... they are just trying to nip it in the bud most of the time.

 

[Phoenix]

No, because we're trying to avoid the morally deplorable risk of executing innocents, which requires a lot of time and money spent on proving intent and guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt. To make capital punishment cheaper you'd have to remove parts of the checks and balances that are there to keep things like <this> from happening.

Don't we do that for every single case? To prevent innocent people from going to jail?

 

[krexia]

what do you mean by sex work?

Sex worker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The drugs thing is something people should be convicted of... because most of the time it is linked with various other and more dangerous illegal activity... they are just trying to nip it in the bud most of the time.

You really think people who possess marijuana for personal use are involved in serious criminal activity? The vast majority of people who smoke weed are perfectly normal people. Personal use of marijuana does not in and of itself harm others; these are not violent criminals and not a danger to anyone around them. Locking them in prison is a waste of resources that could be better brought to bear on other crimes. I'm not saying marijuana should necessarily be legalised, but at the very least decriminalisation just makes sense.

Don't we do that for every single case? To prevent innocent people from going to jail?

Sure. But the fact that capital punishment is irreversible means that the state demands higher standards of proof and more avenues of appeal. If you get a chance, I can really recommend that article I linked to above as an example of why such things are necessary.

 

[Phoenix]

Sure. But the fact that capital punishment is irreversible means that the state demands higher standards of proof and more avenues of appeal. If you get a chance, I can really recommend that article I linked to above as an example of why such things are necessary.

But then it's not that capital punishment is more expensive in of itself.

 

[Seeshinamaru13]

Sex worker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

oh... prostitutes... pimps... etc. i gotcha

You really think people who possess marijuana for personal use are involved in serious criminal activity? The vast majority of people who smoke weed are perfectly normal people. Personal use of marijuana does not in and of itself harm others; these are not violent criminals and not a danger to anyone around them. Locking them in prison is a waste of resources that could be better brought to bear on other crimes. I'm not saying marijuana should necessarily be legalised, but at the very least decriminalisation just makes sense.

yes... a lot of them are... excluding most of the teenagers though.
It doesn't just stop with marijuana... people typically do more looking for the next high. Also drugs like marijuana are commonly linked with dog fighting and cock fighting. People end up going crazy over that stuff, especially in low income areas... in these areas it is very common for people to carry guns and if you get on their bad side they very well may shoot you. I think we need to lock more of these people away. When they get arrested for these other various illegal activities they add a drug use charge and stuff like that which adds on to the punishment... seriously it's a good thing.

 

[krexia]

But then it's not that capital punishment is more expensive in of itself.

And your point is what, exactly? How do you propose to have a system of capital punishment without a system?

yes... a lot of them are... excluding most of the teenagers though.
It doesn't just stop with marijuana... people typically do more looking for the next high.

No, they're not. The slippery slope argument is fallacious. You could just as easily say that it doesn't stop with alcohol, and that people who drink alcohol are typically looking for the "next high" and criminal activity. Should drinking alcohol in the privacy of one's own home be a criminal activity, too?

Also drugs like marijuana are commonly linked with dog fighting and cock fighting.

Not in any country I've ever lived in.

 

[Phoenix]

It doesn't just stop with marijuana... people typically do more looking for the next high.

Don't go slippery slope on me. Hey, drunk drivers kill a lot of people; let's ban all alcohol. Hey, rap gangstas get into gang wars; let's ban all rap music. Hey, religious extremism gets people killed; let's ban religion.

Just no.

And your point is what, exactly? How do you propose to have a system of capital punishment without a system?

Let me get something straight first. The checks and balances they use for inmates we condemn for capital punishment, we don't use them for the ones we condemn for life sentence?

 

[Seeshinamaru13]

Not in any country I've ever lived in.

in america and mexico it is... although technically in mexico dog fighting and cock fighting aren't illegal really.

Don't go slippery slope on me. Hey, drunk drivers kill a lot of people; let's ban all alcohol. Hey, rap gangstas get into gang wars; let's ban all rap music. Hey, religious extremism gets people killed; let's ban religion.

Just no.

damn i must be the only one here who hasn't tried marijuana...

Don't get me wrong though... I do support medical marijuana.

Let me explain the difference between the so called "slippery slope" of marijuana and what you said... marijuana is already illegal (well at least in the US). Also notice that I didn't exactly define what the next high is... people who try marijuana typically also experiment with other drugs especially youths... which can either turn out well or turn out badly due to the situation.
I'm not saying that everything corrupting people to do more illegal activites is marijuana... but in various cases it does play a part.

 

[krexia]

Let me get something straight first. The checks and balances they use for inmates we condemn for capital punishment, we don't use them for the ones we condemn for life sentence?

There's an article that outlines some specific costs <here>.

damn i must be the only one here who hasn't tried marijuana...

Personally I've never smoked so much as a single tobacco cigarette, let alone marijuana.

Let me explain the difference between the so called "slippery slope" of marijuana and what you said... marijuana is already illegal (well at least in the US).

So? Not all illegal activities are equally attractive. Drinking underage is illegal, and I don't think I know a single person who never touched alcohol before they were legally allowed to. Downloading music is illegal, and certainly doesn't encourage people into a life of hard crime. Breaking one law doesn't mean you want to break laws in general.

people who try marijuana typically also experiment with other drugs especially youths...

I'd love to see statistics that prove that the majority of people who try marijuana also try harder drugs.