Anti Black Coat's True Identity



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Alpha Baymax

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Every Spirit has a Doppelganger Nightmare counterpart, why would Riku be the exception to this rule? Replica Riku is Sora's nightmare. it makes even more sense considering Sora's concern of Riku being consumed by the darkness again and his negative experiences with Riku.


Plus, Ansem-Riku is a Xehanort when you really think about it... even Vexen's Doppelganger. Riku Replica is literally a replica of Riku when he was Ansem-Riku. Xehanort could have recruited him as a Seeker of Darkness so that Riku Replica develops his identity beyond a "pathetic imitation".
 

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sooo you are saying that sora's nightmare is riku replica?
 

Sephiroth0812

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Welp, I did designate/interpret the ABC as the Nightmare counterpart to Riku's Spirit Dream Eater shortly after I played through DDD the first time but to actually connect it/make it into Riku Replica is a little stretching it I'd say.

How can Riku Replica even be the Anti-Black Coat anyways? There are no hints that his essence/his heart are somehow located within Riku or Sora so how could he, who vanished in Castle Oblivion, suddenly appear within a web of dreams of Sora that's traversed by Riku?
 

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Welp, I did designate/interpret the ABC as the Nightmare counterpart to Riku's Spirit Dream Eater shortly after I played through DDD the first time but to actually connect it/make it into Riku Replica is a little stretching it I'd say.

How can Riku Replica even be the Anti-Black Coat anyways? There are no hints that his essence/his heart are somehow located within Riku or Sora so how could he, who vanished in Castle Oblivion, suddenly appear within a web of dreams of Sora that's traversed by Riku?
Yeeah, this^
I always just thought it was a given that Anti Black Voat was the Nightmare, so.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Yeeah, this^
I always just thought it was a given that Anti Black Voat was the Nightmare, so.
Heh, I thought it as obvious the moment I saw it had the same height as Riku, similar battle-style and the Nightmare Symbol exactly where Riku has his Spirit Symbol.

To make this clear though, I see the idea to connect the ABC with the Riku Replica (due to him already being a foil/opposite to Riku in CoM) as a very creative one, I'm just not seeing enough substantial implications for it to be actually the case.
 

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Welp, I did designate/interpret the ABC as the Nightmare counterpart to Riku's Spirit Dream Eater shortly after I played through DDD the first time but to actually connect it/make it into Riku Replica is a little stretching it I'd say.

How can Riku Replica even be the Anti-Black Coat anyways? There are no hints that his essence/his heart are somehow located within Riku or Sora so how could he, who vanished in Castle Oblivion, suddenly appear within a web of dreams of Sora that's traversed by Riku?
Well, Ansem Riku is a variation of Xehanort right? if we take that into consideration, Riku Replica could have been revived by Young Xehanort as he is classified as a Xehanort. After all, when Vexen created the Replica for Riku: he intentionally based it off Ansem Riku. If Riku Replica is a replica of Riku when he was controlled by Ansem, Seeker of Darkness (a Xehanort variation), then Xehanort would have considered selecting Replica Riku as a potential vessel as he is already part Xehanort without the liabilities that the original Riku has.

Plus, as I reiterated earlier, every Spirit Dream Eater has a Nightmare counterpart (if you exclude the AR Card Dream Eaters). Why would Riku be the exception to this rule when Riku Replica exist? Riku Replica has been designed with the intention of being a Darkness fuelled puppet and giving him the role as Sora's nightmare seems very fitting if he was to be as much of a Replica as the original Riku is to Sora as a Spirit.
 

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No one stated that Riku is an exception; to the contrary.
But I have to go along with thinking that saying ABC is Riku Replica kinda takes it so far. It's kinda obvious that it's Riku's counterpart for various reasons (that have already been stated).
Just the idea that it is Riku Replica is a little farfetched.
 

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Well, Ansem Riku is a variation of Xehanort right? if we take that into consideration, Riku Replica could have been revived by Young Xehanort as he is classified as a Xehanort. After all, when Vexen created the Replica for Riku: he intentionally based it off Ansem Riku. If Riku Replica is a replica of Riku when he was controlled by Ansem, Seeker of Darkness (a Xehanort variation), then Xehanort would have considered selecting Replica Riku as a potential vessel as he is already part Xehanort without the liabilities that the original Riku has.

Plus, as I reiterated earlier, every Spirit Dream Eater has a Nightmare counterpart (if you exclude the AR Card Dream Eaters). Why would Riku be the exception to this rule when Riku Replica exist? Riku Replica has been designed with the intention of being a Darkness fuelled puppet and giving him the role as Sora's nightmare seems very fitting if he was to be as much of a Replica as the original Riku is to Sora as a Spirit.
I have a BUNCH of problems after thinking this through quite a bit, hear me out. Also, I am a BIG Chain of Memories fan so i might sound vindictive or offended that you'd offer some of these points.

First off, no, Ansem-Riku is not necessarily another Xehanort at all. If you're talking about the brief period of time where Riku gave up his body to let Ansem give him true power, then I could make the argument that that was all Ansem SoD and his actions weren't of Riku's own will, only the true power part. Just because the replica is in the dark mode suit does NOT mean it's the point of time where Ansem possessed Riku while he was wearing that suit. Also, there's no evidence to him having any of Riku-Ansem's powers as shown in 358/2 Days and II, such as being able to summon the guardian, an entity of supreme strength, in order to fight his enemies.

Second, if you mean Riku-Ansem from Days on, then absolutely no. Sure, he looks like Ansem SoD, but he acts of his own free will and shows virtually no qualities of him except for the fact that he has his appearance and his powers. If he had no control over his darkness and fell to evil after he took that form, then it'd be safe for me to call him a Xehanort.

Third off, Vexen's doppelganger is NOT canon. That's in the manga/novels (don't know which one), where Repliku lives on and goes hitchhiking with him and the 43 other clones, and it's confirmed that anything in the written adaptations in non-canon. It could be your own personal head-canon if you think that it doesn't contradict the series in any way, but, considering how #44 ends up being the one to kill Xaldin in the written adaptation, it can't be considered canon in any way (see Vanitas' birth and raising for an exception).

I'm not actually opposed to the idea that Xehanort could have picked out Repliku to be a seeker, i'm opposed to the concept in general. It's not that it isn't perfectly plausible, or, dare I say it, even a good twist, but it takes away so much from that character's journey in that game and his steps to overcome his darkness and find identity in himself as only a copy, and having him being scooped up by Xehanort and turned evil again just seems absolutely insulting to the character as well as completely trashes the one true death we've ever gotten in this series.

Also, as I briefly iterated earlier, let me say that the Riku Replica started out as a direct clone of Riku himself, even wearing his very clothes. He was given a fiery, vindictive sense of self from Namine and the dark clothes he obtained... somehow. Just because he's wearing an outfit Riku was shown to wear before that possession does not mean that he's the possessed version, supported by previous use of the armor/tunic.

Also, I hate the fact that all Xehanort's have yellow eyes, as I think it's stupid, but Riku Replica hasn't been shown to have yellow eyes so far.

The only comparison I could make to the anti black coat is... Riku fights him in a boss battle? I don't see the actual evidence connecting him to this thing and, furthermore, the connections you tried to make don't really make sense either.

I don't mean to hate on your theory, I'm just a big Chain of Memories fan and Riku Replica is one of my favorite Kingdom Hearts characters, so I get very heated when I hear theories like this. It's nothing personal.
 

Alpha Baymax

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I have a BUNCH of problems after thinking this through quite a bit, hear me out. Also, I am a BIG Chain of Memories fan so i might sound vindictive or offended that you'd offer some of these points.
That’s absolutely fine. I liked to be challenged, it shows as to whether my theory holds any weight or not.

First off, no, Ansem-Riku is not necessarily another Xehanort at all. If you're talking about the brief period of time where Riku gave up his body to let Ansem give him true power, then I could make the argument that that was all Ansem SoD and his actions weren't of Riku's own will, only the true power part. Just because the replica is in the dark mode suit does NOT mean it's the point of time where Ansem possessed Riku while he was wearing that suit.
Actually, Riku Ansem is more of a parasite as opposed to “all Ansem SoD”. It’s still shown that Riku had some influence with Riku Ansem be it physical appearance or trying to stop Ansem, Seeker of Darkness from getting his hands on Kairi. And with the whole “dark mode suit” for Riku, who provided that power to Riku in the first place? That’s right, Ansem, Seeker of Darkness.

Also, there's no evidence to him having any of Riku-Ansem's powers as shown in 358/2 Days and II, such as being able to summon the guardian, an entity of supreme strength, in order to fight his enemies.
That’s because, it was at a point where Riku walked the path to dawn and got help from Mickey in order to control it. Fragments of Ansem, Seeker of Darkness was still present in Riku’s heart, however, Riku was at a point where he had full influence of how to control Ansem’s influence.

Third off, Vexen's doppelganger is NOT canon. That's in the manga/novels (don't know which one), where Repliku lives on and goes hitchhiking with him and the 43 other clones, and it's confirmed that anything in the written adaptations in non-canon. It could be your own personal head-canon if you think that it doesn't contradict the series in any way, but, considering how #44 ends up being the one to kill Xaldin in the written adaptation, it can't be considered canon in any way (see Vanitas' birth and raising for an exception).
I never consider the manga of the Kingdom Hearts series at all whatsoever, because as you said, they’re not canon to the franchise.

I'm not actually opposed to the idea that Xehanort could have picked out Repliku to be a seeker, i'm opposed to the concept in general. It's not that it isn't perfectly plausible, or, dare I say it, even a good twist, but it takes away so much from that character's journey in that game and his steps to overcome his darkness and find identity in himself as only a copy, and having him being scooped up by Xehanort and turned evil again just seems absolutely insulting to the character as well as completely trashes the one true death we've ever gotten in this series.
I disagree, I believe that it further adds to the tragedy as a puppet. In Chain of Memories, his memories were dabbled by Vexen and Namine for evil intents. And we all know that every character thus far in the Kingdom Hearts series has been revived in some capacity. There’s hints that Xion will return, the remains of Master Eraqus is resting inside Terra’s heart… I do understand where you’re coming from though. His death was potent… but so was Axel’s and look what happened to him. The subject of “true deaths” is honestly a grey area within the Kingdom Hearts franchise.

Also, I hate the fact that all Xehanort's have yellow eyes, as I think it's stupid, but Riku Replica hasn't been shown to have yellow eyes so far.
That is something that I have never considered, you got me there: I admit that. But saying that all Xehanort’s having yellow eyes is a bit too subjective to the argument don’t you think?

The only comparison I could make to the anti black coat is... Riku fights him in a boss battle? I don't see the actual evidence connecting him to this thing and, furthermore, the connections you tried to make don't really make sense either.
I get that you’re not a huge fan of this theory, but how come a Spirit/Nightmare doppelganger of Riku does not make sense? It makes sense in the context that Spirits and Nightmare are both Dream Eaters. At the very least, Riku is a spirit so shouldn’t there be a nightmare doppelganger of him too?

I don't mean to hate on your theory, I'm just a big Chain of Memories fan and Riku Replica is one of my favorite Kingdom Hearts characters, so I get very heated when I hear theories like this. It's nothing personal.
I understand, it’s natural to have people go against a theory. But I really felt as though this theory needed to be discussed in order to better understand the relevancy of Anti Black Coat in the franchise. I really don’t feel as though he’s a one off character.

No one stated that Riku is an exception; to the contrary.
But I have to go along with thinking that saying ABC is Riku Replica kinda takes it so far. It's kinda obvious that it's Riku's counterpart for various reasons (that have already been stated).
Just the idea that it is Riku Replica is a little farfetched.
At face value, I can understand where you’re coming from, because visually, they’re nothing alike, but upon deeper analysis, let’s understand what a Nightmares function is as a Dream Eater. A Nightmare eats good dreams and plant bad ones. One of Sora’s concerns throughout the series was Riku falling to the Darkness and losing him as a friend. That fear of Sora could have been amplified in the Realm of Sleep to the point where Riku Replica was able to function as the Nightmare counterpart to the original Riku (as he’s Sora’s spirit).
 

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I'm just gonna...

In the development phase, they were thinking of making the enemy Riku fights in The World That Never Was as a symbol of Sora's nightmare a Nightmare version of Meow Wow. In the end they decided on the Anti Black Coat, a black-coated person with the red eyes of a Nightmare, but I personally wanted to leave in the look of the Nightmare Meow Wow, so the colouring on Anti Black Coat's black coat matches Nightmare Meow Wow. By the way, the pattern on the black coat is, on (Mr. Tetsuya) Nomura's suggestion, the same pattern as the one around the keyholes of sleep.
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Actually, Riku Ansem is more of a parasite as opposed to “all Ansem SoD”. It’s still shown that Riku had some influence with Riku Ansem be it physical appearance or trying to stop Ansem, Seeker of Darkness from getting his hands on Kairi. And with the whole “dark mode suit” for Riku, who provided that power to Riku in the first place? That’s right, Ansem, Seeker of Darkness.
I actually really like that description of him, I have to be honest. A "parasite" was what I was trying to get across earlier, but you explained it much better.

And did it explicitly say in the games when exactly Riku was directly being controlled by Ansem SoD? Maleficent was the one who gave him his powers of darkness originally, and, sure, Ansem was certainly following them supposedly through the majority of the game, but was anyone really aware of being a puppet? Hell, Maleficent seemed completely oblivious to the thought that the guy that told her about the PoH was going to take over, and Ansem and Riku's talk before Riku was possessed sounded almost like they've never talked before. I'm not saying he explicitly never encountered him other than on DI, but it certainly seems that way at first.

That’s because, it was at a point where Riku walked the path to dawn and got help from Mickey in order to control it. Fragments of Ansem, Seeker of Darkness was still present in Riku’s heart, however, Riku was at a point where he had full influence of how to control Ansem’s influence.
Absolutely, agree with you on this one. Again, I tried to get that across earlier, but just be careful with how much influence you think he had. Considering what we've seen in the games of this one, it seems like Ansem's influence is minimal besides the dark powers. Sure, it makes Riku uncomfortable, but it's not threatening by any means. If anything, he just hates looking in the mirror now.

I never consider the manga of the Kingdom Hearts series at all whatsoever, because as you said, they’re not canon to the franchise.
Sorry, miscommunication. Thought you meant "A Vexen Doppelganger" instead of "Vexen's Doppelganger" earlier.
I disagree, I believe that it further adds to the tragedy as a puppet. In Chain of Memories, his memories were dabbled by Vexen and Namine for evil intents. And we all know that every character thus far in the Kingdom Hearts series has been revived in some capacity. There’s hints that Xion will return, the remains of Master Eraqus is resting inside Terra’s heart… I do understand where you’re coming from though. His death was potent… but so was Axel’s and look what happened to him. The subject of “true deaths” is honestly a grey area within the Kingdom Hearts franchise.
I get what you mean, although I would not like promoting the muddying the waters further by telling people that the one true death we've seemingly gotten so far has also been meaningless.

That is something that I have never considered, you got me there: I admit that. But saying that all Xehanort’s having yellow eyes is a bit too subjective to the argument don’t you think?
I would consider it subjective if it weren't a fact. It's stupid and I hate it, but eyes are the windows to the soul in the series, and every member of the new Organization XIII has yellow eyes so far, even Xigbar and Saix's eyes changed colors (see pictures of Braig and Isa for reference).

I get that you’re not a huge fan of this theory, but how come a Spirit/Nightmare doppelganger of Riku does not make sense? It makes sense in the context that Spirits and Nightmare are both Dream Eaters. At the very least, Riku is a spirit so shouldn’t there be a nightmare doppelganger of him too?
Ignoring what Taochan wrote before me, you must remember that not every nightmare HAS to have a spirit version of it somewhere. Just because Riku entered as a Spirit does not mean there has to be a nightmare created somewhere because of it. It also doesn't sit well considering Riku had to insert himself as a dream eater, but more of a symbolic dream eater, while the Anti-Black coat seems like a genuine bona-fide dream eater. It just sounds like a misinterpretation that he has to have a nightmare version of himself in the mix.

I understand, it’s natural to have people go against a theory. But I really felt as though this theory needed to be discussed in order to better understand the relevancy of Anti Black Coat in the franchise. I really don’t feel as though he’s a one off character.
Honestly, with the way everything has been going so far, he (or she) very well could come back. The story has been so weird lately that anything could happen.

At face value, I can understand where you’re coming from, because visually, they’re nothing alike, but upon deeper analysis, let’s understand what a Nightmares function is as a Dream Eater. A Nightmare eats good dreams and plant bad ones. One of Sora’s concerns throughout the series was Riku falling to the Darkness and losing him as a friend. That fear of Sora could have been amplified in the Realm of Sleep to the point where Riku Replica was able to function as the Nightmare counterpart to the original Riku (as he’s Sora’s spirit).
It might make more sense by this point for you to say that he's a Replica of Riku instead of the Riku Replica, replica for the first one being in the "clone", "copy", or "imitation" sense. It holds more water as that theory than taking it the extra leap and coming to the conclusion that it is certainly the same one we had encountered before.
 
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