Ansem SoD Loose in Castle Oblivion



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Veritas7340

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Based on what we saw from Ansem's Darkness having a considerable effect on Lexaeus, if Ansem SoD broke free of Riku's heart, by re-possessing him or escaping or some means,

What kind of a threat would he be?

Which Organization Members could he beat?
 

Sephiroth0812

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He could beat everyone except Xemnas, because Xemnas was confirmed to be the strongest of all the Nobodies and Ansem SoD is his counterpart.

So if Xemnas and Ansem would fight each other, the outcome should be either a draw or they would annihilate each other with no victor.
 

Veritas7340

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He could beat everyone except Xemnas, because Xemnas was confirmed to be the strongest of all the Nobodies and Ansem SoD is his counterpart.

So if Xemnas and Ansem would fight each other, the outcome should be either a draw or they would annihilate each other with no victor.
So KH1 Sora could've been able to beat all members of Organization XIII except Xemnas since he beat Ansem?
 

Sephiroth0812

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Sora didn't beat Ansem alone, he had help from both Donald and Goofy as well as the Kingdom Hearts behind the Door to Darkness.
Technically Ansem was even defeated only by that Kingdom Hearts, as SDG only weakened him.

Concerning the Organisation however the logic is easier simply because it is known that Xemnas is the strongest of them. Ansem however is Xemnas' counterpart and should therefore be as powerful or at least near Xemnas' level, which means that he would outclass all the other Organisation members.
 

Veritas7340

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Sora didn't beat Ansem alone, he had help from both Donald and Goofy as well as the Kingdom Hearts behind the Door to Darkness.
Technically Ansem was even defeated only by that Kingdom Hearts, as SDG only weakened him.

Concerning the Organisation however the logic is easier simply because it is known that Xemnas is the strongest of them. Ansem however is Xemnas' counterpart and should therefore be as powerful or at least near Xemnas' level, which means that he would outclass all the other Organisation members.
Okay cool but just want to clarify.

So are you saying that w/o Kingdom Heart's light, if they kept fighting, Ansem SoD might've beaten Sora and co?

Are you saying that KHI Sora and co could've beaten a large majority of Organization XIII?
 

Divine Past

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Roxas would have been the only other member who could have at least hold off SoD for a while before eventually losing. But yea SoD would have wiped the floor with members 2-12 fairly easily.
 

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Okay cool but just want to clarify.

So are you saying that w/o Kingdom Heart's light, if they kept fighting, Ansem SoD might've beaten Sora and co?

Are you saying that KHI Sora and co could've beaten a large majority of Organization XIII?
Dancing around with words, are we?

Without the light, it's quite possible that SDG would also win considering they seem to have seriously worn Ansem SoD down with that fight. Given enough time, probably they would eventually defeat him too. However, for all we know, without the light he might not have been completely annihilated... I'm a bit iffy on this.

As for the second question, if we're talking about post-HB KH1 Sora, then yes, I believe so. Sora was able to hold his ground against Xemnas when he "visited" him to sample his memories, so he might also be able to take down a few members of the Organization. Even in CoM, which took place almost immediately after the events of KH1, he was able to send Larxene and Marluxia to their demise and seriously injure Axel and Vexen. That's no mean feat, wouldn't you think?
 

Veritas7340

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Dancing around with words, are we?

Without the light, it's quite possible that SDG would also win considering they seem to have seriously worn Ansem SoD down with that fight. Given enough time, probably they would eventually defeat him too. However, for all we know, without the light he might not have been completely annihilated... I'm a bit iffy on this.

As for the second question, if we're talking about post-HB KH1 Sora, then yes, I believe so. Sora was able to hold his ground against Xemnas when he "visited" him to sample his memories, so he might also be able to take down a few members of the Organization. Even in CoM, which took place almost immediately after the events of KH1, he was able to send Larxene and Marluxia to their demise and seriously injure Axel and Vexen. That's no mean feat, wouldn't you think?
No, I do agree. I just also like it when video-game plots show the protagonists becoming more powerful as the result of their battle-experience. Battle experience is very important for fighters to become more adept. This is why I'm not entirely on board with the idea of KH1 Sora and Co being able to take on the Organization; it has the implicit vibe that their battle experiences in CoM and throughout KHII were not that important. Does that make sense?
 

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I understand where you're coming from. However, when discussing about KH1 Sora and whether or not he is able to beat the Organization, it helps to specify which point of time in KH1 we are referring to. Much had happened in KH1 and Sora must have grown and learned from his experiences travelling through worlds and slaying villains that got in the way.

To illustrate my point, consider two versions of Sora: one is when he was just your average island boy, and the other, when he was ready to open the final door. We all know that islander Sora struggled against Leon and is weaker than EotW Sora, who had beaten Maleficent in her dragon form, by a major margin. Thus, though they can both be classified as KH1 Sora, there's a gap between them; that's why I said post-HB to specify which version of KH1 Sora that I was referring to. Saying that islander Sora is able to defeat any of the Organization members would be blissful ignorance of logic.

Experience is important, sure. I'm not saying that it is not. It's just that without the experience he gained in CoM and throughout KH2, Sora could have had a more difficult time in taking down the Organization, but he would still at least be a force to be reckoned with considering he was able to defeat the Heartless counterpart of their leader. That's of course going by the assumption that Ansem SoD and Xemnas are equal.
 

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I wouldn't add any experience Sora gained in CoM into your equations since his memory of that adventure has been wiped.
I know he mentions forgetting to thank namine in kh2 final mix that doesn't mean he remembers CoM as a whole since he could just be referring to the entry in Jimney's journal to "thank namine".
 

Veritas7340

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I wouldn't add any experience Sora gained in CoM into your equations since his memory of that adventure has been wiped.
I know he mentions forgetting to thank namine in kh2 final mix that doesn't mean he remembers CoM as a whole since he could just be referring to the entry in Jimney's journal to "thank namine".
I don't know if this officially counts (probably doesn't but this is still cool), but in the real world there are two types of memory: explicit and implicit. Implicit memory mainly consists of learned abilities and conditioning. When people become afflicted with amnesia, oftentimes it's just their explicit memory that is negatively affected; the implicit survives.

At least going off game-play, Sora looks more skillful with a keyblade than he did post-HB KHI. I don't know if there's anything in actual scenes that corroborates this though

Also, advancing the topic thread a little: New Question

If Ansem SoD saw Diz (Ansem the Wise) w/o the bandage mask, would he recognize him from his Xehanort Apprentice days?
 

Gram

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I don't know if this officially counts (probably doesn't but this is still cool), but in the real world there are two types of memory: explicit and implicit. Implicit memory mainly consists of learned abilities and conditioning. When people become afflicted with amnesia, oftentimes it's just their explicit memory that is negatively affected; the implicit survives.
That wouldn't apply here as Sora wasn't stricken with simple amnesia. Namine literally took apart the links binding those memories of CoM together in order to redo the links of his memories pre-CoM in order to restore memory.

His time in CoM is literally beyond his reach to remember right now.

Also, advancing the topic thread a little: New Question

If Ansem SoD saw Diz (Ansem the Wise) w/o the bandage mask, would he recognize him from his Xehanort Apprentice days?
I'd say that's a yes.
 
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Rydgea

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Also, advancing the topic thread a little: New Question

If Ansem SoD saw Diz (Ansem the Wise) w/o the bandage mask, would he recognize him from his Xehanort Apprentice days?
I'm not sure. I don't think Sora physically remembered Kairi when in Hollow Bastion. When he heard her voice, that changed everything though. Who knows, since Ansem SoD is a much more sentient type of Heartless, it's very likely.
 
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