A Little Confusion Regarding Bodies Devoid of Hearts

[:::A Hex Torn:::]

Hey guys, it's been a while since I've posted a thread, but I'm currently working on a story in the Kingdom Hearts universe and there are a few things that I'm trying to clear up in order to make that easier.

Firstly, regarding Nobodies: I was always under the impression that they are "empty shells". The bodies of people who lost their hearts. However, during KH1, we clearly see Kairi without a heart, yet her body remains. It's not a Nobody, it's just an empty husk, showing the very slightest hint of life. Meanwhile, when we see other characters eject their hearts, their bodies disappear. The only other character we've seen show this trait (to my memory) is Ven.

My other confusion lies in the existence of Nobodies when their "other" has a body. After Sora loses his heart in KH1, his body disappears and Roxas is created. This should be where his body resides then, correct? So, how is it that Sora returns? We see him at the end of KH1, all during KH:CoM and the beginning of KH2 and he seems to have a body. So, how does Roxas still exist? Kairi and Naminé display the same trait.

Thanks in advance for any light shed on this!

 

[Noel]

Never really thought in to that, but mind you. Kairi is one of the Princesses of Heart. Also the fact main characters always have a unique trait to them. Also don't forget the dramatics.

They probably left Kairi as just a husk because it would probably send a priority for the player.

As for Sora, he existed only of a heart from the time he became a heartless. Sora's heart was "falling" into the darkness after his Heartless manifested, as he himself described that he was falling and forgetting everything. When Kairi held his heartless, it forged a connection that allowed his heart to break through the darkness and return to the RoL in a new body. If he was a "floating heart" then he would look like a floating orb of light, he was given a new vessel.

 

[Solo]

If you would excuse me, I will just touch on the case of Roxas here since I'm not sure about Kairi. However, I'm positive that there are others who are more knowledgeable than me and able to clear the confusion regarding Kairi.

Technically, Sora's body didn't disappear; it became Roxas. Why it was so is because of Ventus' dormant heart; it stayed with the body and influenced it in a way that it took a lot from Ventus' appearance. However, despite the discrepancy, Roxas is Sora's body for all intents and purposes.

Now, about Sora's heart. It was drifting in darkness, falling and falling deeper until it became a Shadow. Somehow it managed to make its way to Kairi and the others, and this is where it gets interesting. You can say it was princess power or something, but apparently Kairi was able to purify the darkness that enshrouded Sora's heart; this resulted in the heart gaining a human form in which state it stayed until Roxas' reunion with Sora at the beginning of KH2.

The cases of Sora / Roxas and Kairi / Sora / Naminé are special cases that defy the norm, so they are more complicated to explain. Other "normal" Nobodies, upon birth, simply had the heart of their original persona turn into a Heartless and the body and soul left behind gave way to themselves.

 

[Gram]

Well to start off, the only known way to form nobodies is to form a heartless as they are the by-product though rare, which makes Kairi's case fairly simple. She is a princess of heart and therefore lacks any darkness and since she lacks darkness she can never form a heartless from which the nobodies are born as by-products. (but only in rare cases)

Simply put Kairi's status makes her a bit special, even in the event her heart is lost somehow her body will not vanish because she normally can't form a nobody.
Which is also seen in Ven's case. He also lacks any darkness and thus his body doesn't vanish from the realm of light like it normally should.

The moral of this is that for one's body to vanish darkness has to be present within their hearts for some reason and since Kairi lacks any she doesn't vanish.

As for Sora well that's a bit more difficult. So far we have no explanation as to what happened there. Sora's vessel (the body+soul) formed Roxas, which also took Ven's dormant heart along for the ride, while sora himself became heartless.
Yet kairi's PoH dues ex machina purified sora's heart giving him human form when he had no body and that's pretty much all that's known.

There are thousands of theories but no confirmations as to why. The same can be said of Namine, as stated Kairi can't form heartless or nobodies, however Namine came into being when Kairi's heart left sora and returned to her body.
Meaning that Namine not only lacks a corresponding heartless but she also was born from nothing as Kairi has always had her vessel and has always been a whole person.

 

[:::A Hex Torn:::]

Thanks everybody for the responses! These are rather interesting topics to dwell on for me. And theories are helping me put together the pieces of the puzzle for my story.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

Firstly, regarding Nobodies: I was always under the impression that they are "empty shells". The bodies of people who lost their hearts. However, during KH1, we clearly see Kairi without a heart, yet her body remains. It's not a Nobody, it's just an empty husk, showing the very slightest hint of life. Meanwhile, when we see other characters eject their hearts, their bodies disappear. The only other character we've seen show this trait (to my memory) is Ven.

Nobodies can only be created by the birth of a Heartless. The only way a Heartless can be born is by a heart with darkness being expelled from the body. Kairi and Ven are special in that they are beings with hearts of pure light. Kairi was born a Princess of Heart and Ven has no darkness in his heart because Master Xehanort split his heart in half.

Without having darkness in their hearts, there is no way their bodies could become Nobodies. Instead their bodies fall into a state of sleep until their hearts are returned to their bodies.

Nobodies are not just the body. They are the body and soul of the Somebody. Also, as of Kingdom Hearts 3D, it has been confirmed that Nobodies aren't really "empty shells" at all. As Xemnas explains it, the Body will begin to try and compensate for what it has lost and begins to create a new heart. Under the proper conditions, those burgeoning hearts can become true hearts...

(As you can see, quite a few of the Apprentices + Saix & Axel seem to be 5-10 years older than their Somebodies in BBS, and the only way a being in this series can age is with a heart.)

My other confusion lies in the existence of Nobodies when their "other" has a body. After Sora loses his heart in KH1, his body disappears and Roxas is created. This should be where his body resides then, correct? So, how is it that Sora returns? We see him at the end of KH1, all during KH:CoM and the beginning of KH2 and he seems to have a body. So, how does Roxas still exist? Kairi and Naminé display the same trait.

Sora from the point he stops being a Heartless up until the beginning of Kingdom Hearts 2 when Sora wakes up, Sora is a "Walking Heart" (Similar to how Ansem: Seeker of Darkness is as the Cloaked Figure until he steals Riku's body.) He has no body (since Roxas is his body), but the Darkness that was purified around his heart by Kairi's hug in KH1 has become a physical form that allows him to live on as if had never lost his body at all. Even so, that left his heart vulnerable to manipulation (which Marluxia takes advantage of via Namine's powers) and his existence incomplete.

Namine is not Kairi's Nobody in the traditional sense. Namine was essentially created from Kairi's heart leaving Sora's body. If this had never happened, Namine would never have existed

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

When Kairi held his heartless, it forged a connection that allowed his heart to break through the darkness and return to the RoL in a new body. If he was a "floating heart" then he would look like a floating orb of light, he was given a new vessel.

Er, not even close. If that were true, somebody like SoD would have been able to just make himself a new body. Instead, he has to steal Riku's body. Xehanort would have just kept creating NEW vessels for himself without the need for body snatching/implanting his heart/coordinating the Replica Program/etc.

Even Xemnas, as the Enigmatic Man, mentions this in KHFM. "It means you are not whole. You are incomplete." This is in reference to his lack of a body, one that he does not regain until KH2.

 

[Zettaflare]

Er, not even close. If that were true, somebody like SoD would have been able to just make himself a new body. Instead, he has to steal Riku's body. Xehanort would have just kept creating NEW vessels for himself without the need for body snatching/implanting his heart/coordinating the Replica Program/etc.

Even Xemnas, as the Enigmatic Man, mentions this in KHFM. "It means you are not whole. You are incomplete." This is in reference to his lack of a body, one that he does not regain until KH2.

I think the fact that sora was able to get a new body was due to Kairi's powers as a PoH. Ansem had no such powers, which is why he couldn't make himself a new body

 

[Solo]

I think the fact that sora was able to get a new body was due to Kairi's powers as a PoH. Ansem had no such powers, which is why he couldn't make himself a new body

Except it's not a new body, only a bodily form. Had it been a new body, then there would have been no need for Roxas to reunite with Sora.

 

[Sign]

I think the fact that sora was able to get a new body was due to Kairi's powers as a PoH. Ansem had no such powers, which is why he couldn't make himself a new body

You are literally just repeating what Spockanort said for the umpteenth time.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Had it been a new body, then there would have been no need for Roxas to reunite with Sora.

That's incorrect though, it was stated in Days that the only reason Roxas needed to be merged with Sora was because he held some of Sora's memories which had trickled into him from Naminé messing up Sora's Chain of Memories and also from the whole mess Xion created with her leeching ability.
As Naminé states, without all his memories Sora won't wake up.
Had Naminé however not messed up his memories in the first place, Sora would not have needed to go to sleep and thus there would have been also no need to forcefully integrate Roxas back into Sora. They could have co-existed without any trouble for either one.

 

[Solo]

Aye, that's right. I was too focused on the body issues that I overlooked that memories part. Thanks for the correction.

Anyway, I was just asserting that the physical form Sora's heart took at that time wasn't a new body. It couldn't have been his old one either, since everyone knows that it was left behind as Roxas. All this combined makes Sora a special and almost unique case in that he could physically coexist with his Nobody.

If what was brought about by Kairi's intervention were indeed Sora's new body instead of just a form, I don't know what would have happened to it as a result of Sora and Roxas' merging together.

 

[Zettaflare]

Aye, that's right. I was too focused on the body issues that I overlooked that memories part. Thanks for the correction.

Anyway, I was just asserting that the physical form Sora's heart took at that time wasn't a new body. It couldn't have been his old one either, since everyone knows that it was left behind as Roxas. All this combined makes Sora a special and almost unique case in that he could physically coexist with his Nobody.

If what was brought about by Kairi's intervention were indeed Sora's new body instead of just a form, I don't know what would have happened to it as a result of Sora and Roxas' merging together.

I would imagine nothing would happen to it. Roxas would just simply be absorbed into Sora's new form/body.

 

[Gram]

Aye, that's right. I was too focused on the body issues that I overlooked that memories part. Thanks for the correction.

Anyway, I was just asserting that the physical form Sora's heart took at that time wasn't a new body. It couldn't have been his old one either, since everyone knows that it was left behind as Roxas. All this combined makes Sora a special and almost unique case in that he could physically coexist with his Nobody.

If what was brought about by Kairi's intervention were indeed Sora's new body instead of just a form, I don't know what would have happened to it as a result of Sora and Roxas' merging together.

Most likely they'd have molded into one as Swoosh stated since that's what they seem to have more or less done with Sora's psuedo-physical heart form.

I've often wondered why Namine just didn't extract/transfer/copy the few sora memories Roxas had into sora. In days she mentioned it could take years or cause people to not remember him but that was with Xion in the fold, unless this holds true for both.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

Most likely they'd have molded into one as Swoosh stated since that's what they seem to have more or less done with Sora's psuedo-physical heart form.

The problem is that she was saying he did grow a body which we know is untrue. But there is no need in continuing that debate because we can probably talk circles about it.

I've often wondered why Namine just didn't extract/transfer/copy the few sora memories Roxas had into sora. In days she mentioned it could take years or cause people to not remember him but that was with Xion in the fold, unless this holds true for both.

While there is nothing to confirm this little theory of mine, I've always figured it was because the body was always meant to be something like a receptacle for the memories of a Somebody to stay after the heart is lost to darkness. Combined with the possibility Roxas was growing his own heart, it is easy to theorize the memories literally were becoming a part of him.

Idk about copying, though. It was Xemnas copying his memories to create Xion that got them into this mess in the first place lol.

 

[Gram]

While there is nothing to confirm this little theory of mine, I've always figured it was because the body was always meant to be something like a receptacle for the memories of a Somebody to stay after the heart is lost to darkness. Combined with the possibility Roxas was growing his own heart, it is easy to theorize the memories literally were becoming a part of him.

Idk about copying, though. It was Xemnas copying his memories to create Xion that got them into this mess in the first place lol.

That's a likely theory imo as the reason Namine stated she couldn't remove them from Xion was because they were becoming apart of her.

Yes but that was Xemnas, namine has the power to create actual (though false) memories from nothing. Theoretically she could've recreated the missing ones from nothing. (after examining what to copy from Roxas)
And wasn't it technically Namines fault the mess started? After all Xion was created before sora's memories were tampered with and both he and roxas were just fine.
It wasn't until Namine started messing around that everything went all to hell so to speak. xD

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Yes but that was Xemnas, namine has the power to create actual (though false) memories from nothing. Theoretically she could've recreated the missing ones from nothing. (after examining what to copy from Roxas)
And wasn't it technically Namines fault the mess started? After all Xion was created before sora's memories were tampered with and both he and roxas were just fine.
It wasn't until Namine started messing around that everything went all to hell so to speak. xD

However, to do that she would still need to untangle both Xion's and Roxas' own memories in order to find those who are Sora's, then examine them and do something with them.
The problem was not that it was "impossible" to restore Sora without having Roxas and Xion disappear at first, but that it would take far too long. If Riku, Naminé and DiZ had chosen that approach the Organisation would have reached their goals already. It was practically a race against time. Also, the longer this whole mess played out, the more complicated it would get due to Xion's leeching ability and Roxas being used as an "intermediary" to catch Sora's drifting memories.

Naminé: But if they join with her memories, things get a lot more complicated.
I would need to untangle her memory before I could finish Sora's... What was
supposed to take months might take years. DiZ would be furious.

Riku: So what's the solution?

Naminé: If I try to just jump in and rearrange her memory...then I risk Sora
waking up to find out that nobody remembers him anymore. I can't do that to
him. It's too late either way. His awakening will have to be delayed. I never
imagined Sora's Nobody and the other one would fight so hard to be their own
people. Unfortunately, the only real solution...is for them both to go away.

Naminé: Did you know her face was blank at first? Only now can you see
someone. That proves some of Sora's memories are inside her. Some inside
her, some inside Sora...others inside Sora's Nobody... I can't sort it out
anymore. All I can do is pick up the pieces once what has to be done, is done.

By the time the above conversation happens (Day 276), the mess has become already so heavy and confusing that even Naminé herself lost track of how and where to look for Sora's specific memories ("I can't sort it out anymore").
Not to mention by this time both Xion and Roxas have created so many memories of their own that searching for those of Sora inside them would be an arduous task that, coupled with Xion's natural leeching ability and Xemnas' scheming, would take far too long with no guaranteed success, that's why Naminé proposes the only "real solution" that is now left for them to take, despite being uneasy with it.

It was technically Naminé's fault all this mess started, yes (and that's actually what makes me shiver everytime someone feels the need to ship her with Roxas, she not only brainwashed him but also caused his disappearance), but when looking at the whole picture she was forced into it by the Organisation, and thus by extent by Xehanort to do it.
The original plan of Castle Oblivion was to use Naminé's power to turn Sora into a puppet so that the Organisation could have used both a Replica copy and Sora to collect hearts (the Replica program was started before Roxas came into the picture), and later both Roxas and Sora. However, Marluxia hijacked the plan and so Xemnas turned to using either both the Replica and Roxas or only one of them, whatever worked best. So, in the very end, Xehanort and his plans are the culprits that are responsible for not only TAV's, but also Roxas', Xion's and Naminé's suffering.
All leads back to Xehanort directly or indirectly as the cause of things.


Nomura actually goes into detail about this in the Days Ultimania (which is actually something I feel that should have been included in the game Days from the beginning):

-- The "Replica Plan" that was the key to this game, was it begun with Roxas' entry into the Organisation?
Nomura: No, earlier than that. Originally Vexen was working privately to advance the research on Replicas, but for the Organisation's goal of completing "Kingdom Hearts of people's hearts" they needed to use the Keyblade to recover hearts, so they switched to this plan of copying the Keyblade hero. As for who was or wasn't told about the "Replica Plan", that depended only on their different missions.



-- So at the start of the Replica Project they didn't have plans to get rid of Roxas?Nomura: That's right. Originally the plan was to keep their power in balance. If it had been maintained, there would have been no need to get rid of one of them. But in the end Xion began absorbing too much power, and so they no longer needed Roxas. Xemnas had nothing to do with the plan, however, and only the people below him were concerned with it. Xemnas only cared that Kingdom Hearts be completed. Originally the Castle Oblivion plan was to use both Roxas and Sora, but since that changed it would be equally convenient to wait until Sora woke up in Kingdom Hearts II and use him then.