32 Plot Holes in Dream Drop Distance

[Barbas]

This is not a hate post for Dream Drop Distance. I may heavily dislike the game, fom many reasons, mostly related to it's story, but I'm a fan of the Kingdom Hearts series, a fan who is really concerned about the direction the story is headed. The following plotholes are ones that I have heavily researched into. I've read every single story interview, every single glossary, report, and character file in the series and I feel like these plotholes still stand. The reason I compiled these, is because in my experience our community is rather bad at recognising the logical inconsistencies the plot of KH can have, and I think that this unwillingness to recognise these faults is getting in the way of the discourse and prevents us from discussing more important narrative aspects and problems in the KH series as a whole. I don't believe that plot holes are the biggest story problem of DDD. But when a game focuses so hard on it's plot and lore mechanics, I believe it is beyond fair criticism to point out how little the creators seem to care about the rules that they set. I am happy to further discuss any of the following plotholes in detail if you feel like I am being unreasonable. Let's talk about these and have some fun.

1. In the opening cutscene it is implied that Terranort never actually lost his memory. If Terranort never lost his memory then he knows that Braig is already norted, so why would he attack him to turn him into a nobody. Why turn an already Norted individual into a nobody, only to then nort him again. Braig is arguably Xehanort's most trusted associate. It makes zero sense to turn him into a nobody and then nort him all over again.

2. Yen Sid's plan is insane. Xehanort is coming back because both his heartless and nobody were destroyed. Let's leave untrained, powerless Kairi in Destiny Islands alone, while the only people that can protect her are hanging out in Mysterious Tower.


3. Yen Sid claims to "not know" what worlds they are going to encounter in the sleeping realm but he apparently knows for a fact that they are 7 and moments later knowing which world they will start on: Destiny Islands. (He shouldn't know about DI's previews status as a sleeping world if he doesn't know which worlds they will encounter)

4. Grand Father Paradox. No version of Sora receiving the information that Destiny Islands needs to be saved via time travel has ever experienced Destiny Islands's fall into the sleeping realm. There is no alternate timeline. The Destiny Islands were always saved by time travelling Sora which raises the question "Why would Sora save DI when from his and everyone else's linear perpsective, DI were never a sleeping world in the first place?
If his motivation isn't to save a world he doesn't rembember needing saving from a sleeping state but is purely to save DI in order to begin the exam and the process of gaining the Power of Waking, then why isn't he INSANELY taken back by Yen Sid's claim that DI needs saving from the sleeping realm? Sora doesn't know and hasn't experienced a timeline in which that's the case. There is no such timeline. DI were always saved by time travelling Sora before falling to sleep. So why isn't he even remotely surprised upon hearing that his world needs retroactive saving if he doesn't remember it needing so???

5. Yen Sid implies some sort of correlation between the number of sleeping keyholes Sora and Riku will have to unlock and the number of pure hearts of light there are. A correlation that literally goes nowhere and means nothing

6. In TWTNW in KH2, every single peice of optional dialogue Kairi has when you interact with her is some variation of the sentiment "We're together from now on, wherever one goes, all of us follow". She expresses the same sentiment in a later cutscene involving Namine, Roxas, and Sora.
In DDD Kairi goes against EVERYTHING SHE SAYS in KH2 about sticking by Sora and just waits for them back home while they go on an new journey

7. Why does Yen Sid wait until the end of the game to invite kairi and start her training....he summoned Sora and Riku for the same purpose... he invited Sora and Riku to begin their training yet left Kairi alone for...reasons?

8. According to Yen Sid, worlds that were previously in the dark realm can get "stuck" in the sleeping realm after you resque them from the dark. Destiny Islands was retroactively saved from the sleeping realm by time travelling Sora and Riku, BEFORE it was eventually saved from the dark realm in KH1's ending. Contradicting Yen Sid's explanation.

9. Heartless appeared in Destiny Islands in KH1 up until the very end. Also, Heartless-Ansem was there too. That shouldn't be possible because as Yen Sid explains, heartless can't reach sleeping worlds. That was the entire point of nightmares. Heartless-Ansem appears in DI while at the same time, the Sleeping Keyhole is already present. Which indicates that the world is now in the sleeping realm.

10. Yen Sid couldn't have known about Xehanort's plan to separate the sleeping worlds into two copies, creating 2 versions of each world. So how would both Riku and Sora unlock "7" keyholes in his mind? Does one unlock 3 and the other 4????

11. During KH1's credits, we see Pinochio and his father in what appears to be Traverse Town. That means that their world hadn't woken up. Some time after the ending of KH1, Traverse Town became a sleeping world. So what happened to Jepeto and Pinochio. Were they dragged into the sleeping realm? We don't see them in DDD. And if so, why isn't Jiminy, INSANELY worried about the fact that his friends are missing as their whole world dissapeared from the realm of light.

12. Axel woke up expecting Isa to be there. There is no reason for Isa to be there and for all Axel knows, to even be alive. Just because his nobody was defeated, it doesn't automaticaly mean that his heartless has been defeated too. Does Axel have access to the script?

13. Maleficent is in Disney Castle, ignoring the cornerstone of light.

14. Traverse Town was still in the Realm of Sleep after they "woke it up".

15. When the new Organization gathers in TWTNW and through some unexplained time restriction they have to return to whence they came, everyone dissapears through the same effect in the round room even though many of them are not time travelers.

16. According to Nomura, when someone is recompleted as a human their body sustains the damage they took as nobodies, which means that Old Xehanort literally can't be recompleted BECAUSE HIS BODY WAS COMPLETELY DESTROYED WHEN HE LEFT IT BEHIND TO POSSES TERRA'S.

17. IF YOU DECIDED THAT THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE ORGANIZATION IN KH2 WAS TO "round up a bunch of empty husks and hook the up to Kingdom Hearts and give them Xehanorts heart" THEN HOW IS BRAIG ALREADY HALF XEHANORT. IF YOU COULD NORT PEOPLE WITHOUT KH, AS WE SEE WITH BRAIG IN THE OPENING, THEN WHY BOTHER CREATING AN ENTIRE KH TO DO IT?

18. Why did they gather in TWTNW in the first place. What union could ever be achieved there? It's the wrong place.

19. YX explanation of time travel is wrong. According to Nomura, you don't have to leave your body behind. In most of ddd's time traveller's cases, it is not a nessecity. Terranort separating himself into a heartless and a nobody made it so that every version of himself throughout time was now in a fit state to do so, indefinately. So, according to Nomura you only need to leave your body behind ONCE. And then the power of time travel can be passed down to whichever version of yourself you choose to give it to.

20. Why didn't Young Xehanort travel further into the future. Why does the future lie beyond his sight. A version of himself clearly exists in KH3. Why not travel further than DDD to know how it all ends?

21. In his reports in BBS Xehanort explicitly says that he found the way to summon the "complete" KH. He needed a clash between darkness and light. No mention of 13 or 7. Retcon

22. Xehanort -Ansem's KH1 plan makes literally zero sense in retrospect. If he had already travelled to the past to talk to Young Xehanort and knew that the plan to gather 7 lights and 13 darknesses was already in motion, why does he go through with trying to create an artificial KH by destroying all those worlds. What does he gain by doing that. If he had planted himself in Destiny Islands just to be certain that a version of himself exists in that point in time, so that he can hijack time traveling Sora's exam, why does the rest of KH1 happen? He knew that he would be destroyed? Why did he have to be destroyed in KH1? What part of Xehanorts plan, nessesitated Ansem being destroyed by Sora in KH1.

23. If the plan was for them to use replicas, why are they using YX to round up the org members through time and bring them over to TWTNW. As I already explained, YX bring everyone back WITH their bodies. They later use replicas in KH3. Why?

24. Edit: Riku's explanation of why he had the dreameater powers in the real world, contradicts both a cutscene later and Nomura's explanation. In a later cutscene, Braig when revealing that Sora is still dreaming, claims that Sora's form would have changed back to regular if he was "back home". Riku says that he knows he himself is back in the real world but the reason he has the dream eater powers (and we can assume the form as well) is because Sora hasn't woken up yet. Neither of those explanations are correct. According to Nomura, they would have to return to Yen Sid's tower for their forms to return to normal. Their forms are still different not because Sora isn't awake as Riku claims, and certainly not because they aren't "back home" like Braig claims.

25. Xemnas explains that most of the original members of the Organization were unfit to carry out their goals. Yet in KH3 XEMNAS BRINGS BACK INTO THE ORGANIZATION THE FOLLOWING PREVIOUS MEMBERS
1)MARLUXIA: A LITERAL TRAITOR
2)LARXENE
3)LUXORD
4)XIGBAR
5)SAIX
6)XION
7)HIMSELF
8) DEMYX AS BACKUP
9)VEXEN AS BACKUP
10) YX MENTIONS THAT ROXAS WAS A WORTHY CANDIDATE

EVEN IF YOU DON'T COUNT THE BACK UP MEMBERS, XEMNAS OBVIOUSLY THOUGHT THAT AT LEAST HALF OF THE ORIGINAL MEMBERS ARE STILL VIABLE OPTIONS FOR THE NEW ORGANIZATION. WHAT IS HE SAYING.

26. YX explains to Sora that he's been to TraverseTown many times. He references his COM visit as one of them to Sora, a character that literally doesn't remember doing that. Why? Why reference a thing he literally has no memory of? Also this scene is 1000% pointless and means actually nothing just in general

27. YX mentions that Sora has been to Traverse Town many times. He claims that one of them was in recoded, which is literally wrong. That was data Sora's visit. A separate being.

28. "Promises to keep. I'll always be there to bring my friends back". Yeah cute throwback guys also a plothole cause that line was said to Xion. Every memory connected to her is supposed to have been erased from the memories of the people that knew her.

29. Sora "loses his powers" in the end but is somehow able to go back to plothole Traverse Town.

30. Braig claims that the keyblade wouldn't ever choose Sora. And Sora agrees and says he doesn't care. Even though Sora is the ONLY PERSON WE'VE SEEN THAT WAS ACTUALLY CHOSEN BY THE KEYBLADE. No ceremony to pass it down to him. The Keyblade unquestionably CHOSE HIM OVER RIKU.

31. "I don't care if the keyblade didn't chose me. I'm proud to be part OF THE PEOPLE IT DID CHOOSE" is a non sequitur. It is an insane sentence, spoken by a very confused young man. Also a plot hole.

32. In KH3 we see that nobodies can detect the princesses of heart by identifying their particularly strong hearts. Which means they can sense hearts. Which means they should be able to KNOW THAT THEY HAVE HEARTS BEFORE XEMNAS REVEALED IT.

 

[Elysium]

The cloaks apparently allowed them to traverse dark corridors and keep their identities hidden, not just in the sense that you can't see their face but wouldn't be able to sense who they are (at least, I assume so since Riku and Mickey wore them while tracking the Organization). Perhaps the cloaks would also hide the growing hearts among the members from each other, too?

 

[Barbas]

Hey! Thanks for the reply. That sure could be the case. But they would have to come out and confirm it is the canon explanation. That's the reason I specified that these plotholes stand, even if you read the interviews. I'm completely avoiding head canon in this post and I'm focusing on hard evidence instead of theories and hypotheses. Mixing in theories would infinetly derail the conversation so I'm trying to stick to facts.

 

[Barbas]

Also, when it comes to wearing the coat. There were several instances in KH2's opening where Axel come in contact with Roxas, who was wearing his casual clothing. Even if they do come out and say that the Org outfits were the reason they couldn't sense hearts, shouldn't Axel've sensed that Roxas certainly had a heart when he met him in kh2?

 

[SweetYetSalty]

That's a lot of points. I can't address them all but I'll mention a few.

1) The opening with Terranort/Apprentice Xehanort was mainly to show the formation of the original Organization and him stealing Ansem's name, reminding you that was a thing. I don't think it's ever really stated if this version of Xehanort still had amnesia or was faking as he doesn't get enough attention in the series. But he probably remembers something if he can summon his Keyblade. It could be that Terra or Xehanort's subconscious takes over Apprentice Xehanort briefly from time to time as they fight for control.

The question I'm curious about is if he attacked members 2-8 with his Keyblade like he did Braig, then they should all know Xehanort has a Keyblade since those members kept their memories. Including Axel and Saix as we see them lying on the ground with the original members after recompletion. Originally it was implied they lost their hearts during a experiment but DDD implies Xehanort attacked them.

2) Now onto Yen Sid. Yen Sid in general is a bad mentor given all the changes that have happened in the story. The fact that he knew destroying Xehanort's Heartless and Nobody would result in him reviving and didn't warn either Sora or Mickey in KH2 about this is a oversight. As is why he didn't give KH2 Sora a Mark of Mastery exam/proper Keyblade training prior to his search for Riku and Mickey, given how strict they're cracking down on that now post-KH3 with Kairi. Was the threat of KH2 just a joke compared to KH3 that didn't require a master? And don't even get me started on the Aqua situation, that apparently wasn't important enough for him to come out of retirement and help get her back. She should have been saved long before KH3. Honestly him leaving Kairi alone on the islands is standard compared to everything else.

7) While on the subject of Kairi, you asked why didn't he invite Kairi? Apparently he didn't know she could wield one and nobody told him. Kairi has technically had her Keyblade for nearly as long as Riku's had Way to Dawn by then so she should qualify for the same training the boys got.

21, 22) Xehanort/Ansem's plot making no sense. By themselves the Xehanorts plans make sense for what they are trying to do in the game where they are the main antagonist. When they tried to mix it together as if they were working towards one goal it doesn't make sense. Xemnas's plans also suffer as much as Ansem's does due to this change. The 13 vs 7 was a way to try and connect Ansem and Xemnas's goals as well as setup a future battle in KH3.

12) Can't really fault Axel for that. Most of the members returned from his point of view. He might not have known the exact rules of how recompletion works given it was a new one. But I believe Ienzo did? But the way he describes it makes it unsure if he always knew or just figured it out over waking up.

25) Agreed. By now everyone has said this. Many things from DDD didn't carry over to KH3. This is one of them. And yeah they had questionable members on the group.

28) That was in Lea's subconscious, he still doesn't remember her when waking up. There isn't a magic spell around Xion's memories that forever prevents memories leaking out. Her situation operates in the rules setup by Chain of Memories. The chains are broken but the memories still exist in Sora. Once you remember one thing, another memory comes back and another and yada yada, KH3 showed it during the Lea/Kairi cutscene.

30) Yeah, this is pretty inconsistent. While Xigbar is just talking trash like always to rattle him, Sora saying it didn't choose him is contrary to what happened in Hollow Bastion, arguably one of Sora's most defining moments in the series. They've been backtracking on Sora for awhile now, making it seem like Riku is the more worthy hero/Keyblade user, while making Sora the 'dull ordinary boy' who gets lucky.

Those were the ones I wanted to mention. Kingdom Hearts has lots of plotholes, changes and retcons. Every game has them. While it's fun to nitpick at them (I do it all the time) it shouldn't be taken too seriously. Despite all my nitpicks and complaints I love this crazy series.

 

[Barbas]

Yeah I don't think I dissagree with most of your points

1) The line that I'm mostly refering to is Braig saying "Did you never lose your memory?" It feels like the entire narrative value of the scene revolves around Braig's assumtion. And if said assumption is correct then I think the plothole I'm pointing out stands

21, 22)
Xemnas's and Ansem's plans, in a vacuum make enough sense. It's DDD's insistance on making us believe that "It was all part of the greater plan/ it was all to be expected" that reeeaaally falls flat on a logic level.

28) I think that Lea mentioning a very specific statement he directed at Xion under a VERY specific set of circumstances in Days is honestly pushing this idea way too far. When Axel originaly said this, they were alone in front of the mansion in Twilight Town. This felt insanely out of nowhere. It didn't feel like one thing led to another. It was character driven choices and drama that separated Axel, Roxas and Xion and that was what infuriated Axel to the point of shouting out like that. It had nothing to do with Xehanort for him. If they actually wanted to be consistent about the ideas of COM then it would have made a ton more sense for Axel to make a similar statement in KH2. And my guess is that Xion hadn't even been conceptualized by the writers back then so they did what they could to bring back this theme from COM in DDD, at the cost of in universe logic/consistency

 

[Zettaflare]

There was absolutely no reason that Kairi couldn't of taken the exam in DDD. None. Even if Yen Sid wasn't aware of her being a wielder until the very end of the game she could of insisted on going with the boys and informing the old man herself.

 

[SweetYetSalty]

1) Again, we don't know the full situation with Xehanort's memories. Unless it's in a Nomura interview. Apprentice Xehanort is all over the place. It's hard to tell what he remembered or didn't based on how many times he's be rewritten.

21, 22) Agreed.

28) I think you missed the point I was making. I'll try and explain it again. That was in Lea's subconscious dreamlike state. You can dream about something that happened years ago that you haven't thought about in forever even if it doesn't make sense in the context of the dream. I don't see how him quoting a KH2 line would have been more consistent over using a lost memory quote in a dream. It's not like he remembered who he said it to. It would be like dreaming of a statement you made to someone at some point in your life but in the dream you say it to a frog. And my CoM example was trying to explain how forgotten memories work in KH not that Lea regained his memories in the dream themselves lol.

Edit: I fully agree @Zettaflare and since the Mark of Mastery apparently isn't about skill, Kairi might have even passed since Xehanort wouldn't sabotage her exam.

 

[Barbas]

1) Again, we don't know the full situation with Xehanort's memories. Unless it's in a Nomura interview. Apprentice Xehanort is all over the place. It's hard to tell what he remembered or didn't based on how many times he's be rewritten.

21, 22) Agreed.

28) I think you missed the point I was making. I'll try and explain it again. That was in Lea's subconscious dreamlike state. You can dream about something that happened years ago that you haven't thought about in forever even if it doesn't make sense in the context of the dream. I don't see how him quoting a KH2 line would have been more consistent over using a lost memory quote in a dream. It's not like he remembered who he said it to. It would be like dreaming of a statement you made to someone at some point in your life but in the dream you say it to a frog. And my CoM example was trying to explain how forgotten memories work in KH not that Lea regained his memories in the dream themselves lol.

Edit: I fully agree @Zettaflare and since the Mark of Mastery apparently isn't about skill, Kairi might have even passed since Xehanort wouldn't sabotage her exam.

I frased it very poorly
28) The reason I hate Lea referencing what he said to Xion in Days is because it feels like it comes out of nowhere. There wasn't a process of him begining to remember something or coming in contact, say Kairi, a person that looks a lot like his forgotten friend. On the kh2 thing. I didn't say I wanted Axel to quote a kh2 line. I said that it would have made a ton more sense for Axel to have quoted the thing he said to Xion (and thrn repeated in ddd) during KH2, instead of DDD. Axel being exposed to Kairi could have more easily been written to be the thing that triggered the "chain of memories" for Axel for him to say that line. But, they weren't consistent with COM's themes in that way in kh2, so it feels reaally out of place when it happens in DDD, during a scene that is absolutely nothing like the original circumstances that lead to Axel saying that frase in Days.
I hope this clears it up

 

[SweetYetSalty]

I frased it very poorly
28) The reason I hate Lea referencing what he said to Xion in Days is because it feels like it comes out of nowhere. There wasn't a process of him begining to remember something or coming in contact, say Kairi, a person that looks a lot like his forgotten friend. On the kh2 thing. I didn't say I wanted Axel to quote a kh2 line. I said that it would have made a ton more sense for Axel to have quoted the thing he said to Xion (and thrn repeated in ddd) during KH2, instead of DDD. Axel being exposed to Kairi could have more easily been written to be the thing that triggered the "chain of memories" for Axel for him to say that line. But, they weren't consistent with COM's themes in that way in kh2, so it feels reaally out of place when it happens in DDD, during a scene that is absolutely nothing like the original circumstances that lead to Axel saying that frase in Days.
I hope this clears it up

I see. For the record Lea referencing what he said to Xion did come out of nowhere, that's why it was a dream. Nothing triggered it beyond random subconscious lost memory. What you are saying of something triggering it, they could have gone that way if things were better planned out. KH3 went that route but DDD didn't.

 

[RojasKBM]

This is not a hate post for Dream Drop Distance. I may heavily dislike the game, fom many reasons, mostly related to it's story, but I'm a fan of the Kingdom Hearts series, a fan who is really concerned about the direction the story is headed. The following plotholes are ones that I have heavily researched into. I've read every single story interview, every single glossary, report, and character file in the series and I feel like these plotholes still stand. The reason I compiled these, is because in my experience our community is rather bad at recognising the logical inconsistencies the plot of KH can have, and I think that this unwillingness to recognise these faults is getting in the way of the discourse and prevents us from discussing more important narrative aspects and problems in the KH series as a whole. I don't believe that plot holes are the biggest story problem of DDD. But when a game focuses so hard on it's plot and lore mechanics, I believe it is beyond fair criticism to point out how little the creators seem to care about the rules that they set. I am happy to further discuss any of the following plotholes in detail if you feel like I am being unreasonable. Let's talk about these and have some fun.

1. In the opening cutscene it is implied that Terranort never actually lost his memory. If Terranort never lost his memory then he knows that Braig is already norted, so why would he attack him to turn him into a nobody. Why turn an already Norted individual into a nobody, only to then nort him again. Braig is arguably Xehanort's most trusted associate. It makes zero sense to turn him into a nobody and then nort him all over again.

2. Yen Sid's plan is insane. Xehanort is coming back because both his heartless and nobody were destroyed. Let's leave untrained, powerless Kairi in Destiny Islands alone, while the only people that can protect her are hanging out in Mysterious Tower.


3. Yen Sid claims to "not know" what worlds they are going to encounter in the sleeping realm but he apparently knows for a fact that they are 7 and moments later knowing which world they will start on: Destiny Islands. (He shouldn't know about DI's previews status as a sleeping world if he doesn't know which worlds they will encounter)

4. Grand Father Paradox. No version of Sora receiving the information that Destiny Islands needs to be saved via time travel has ever experienced Destiny Islands's fall into the sleeping realm. There is no alternate timeline. The Destiny Islands were always saved by time travelling Sora which raises the question "Why would Sora save DI when from his and everyone else's linear perpsective, DI were never a sleeping world in the first place?
If his motivation isn't to save a world he doesn't rembember needing saving from a sleeping state but is purely to save DI in order to begin the exam and the process of gaining the Power of Waking, then why isn't he INSANELY taken back by Yen Sid's claim that DI needs saving from the sleeping realm? Sora doesn't know and hasn't experienced a timeline in which that's the case. There is no such timeline. DI were always saved by time travelling Sora before falling to sleep. So why isn't he even remotely surprised upon hearing that his world needs retroactive saving if he doesn't remember it needing so???

5. Yen Sid implies some sort of correlation between the number of sleeping keyholes Sora and Riku will have to unlock and the number of pure hearts of light there are. A correlation that literally goes nowhere and means nothing

6. In TWTNW in KH2, every single peice of optional dialogue Kairi has when you interact with her is some variation of the sentiment "We're together from now on, wherever one goes, all of us follow". She expresses the same sentiment in a later cutscene involving Namine, Roxas, and Sora.
In DDD Kairi goes against EVERYTHING SHE SAYS in KH2 about sticking by Sora and just waits for them back home while they go on an new journey

7. Why does Yen Sid wait until the end of the game to invite kairi and start her training....he summoned Sora and Riku for the same purpose... he invited Sora and Riku to begin their training yet left Kairi alone for...reasons?

8. According to Yen Sid, worlds that were previously in the dark realm can get "stuck" in the sleeping realm after you resque them from the dark. Destiny Islands was retroactively saved from the sleeping realm by time travelling Sora and Riku, BEFORE it was eventually saved from the dark realm in KH1's ending. Contradicting Yen Sid's explanation.

9. Heartless appeared in Destiny Islands in KH1 up until the very end. Also, Heartless-Ansem was there too. That shouldn't be possible because as Yen Sid explains, heartless can't reach sleeping worlds. That was the entire point of nightmares. Heartless-Ansem appears in DI while at the same time, the Sleeping Keyhole is already present. Which indicates that the world is now in the sleeping realm.

10. Yen Sid couldn't have known about Xehanort's plan to separate the sleeping worlds into two copies, creating 2 versions of each world. So how would both Riku and Sora unlock "7" keyholes in his mind? Does one unlock 3 and the other 4????

11. During KH1's credits, we see Pinochio and his father in what appears to be Traverse Town. That means that their world hadn't woken up. Some time after the ending of KH1, Traverse Town became a sleeping world. So what happened to Jepeto and Pinochio. Were they dragged into the sleeping realm? We don't see them in DDD. And if so, why isn't Jiminy, INSANELY worried about the fact that his friends are missing as their whole world dissapeared from the realm of light.

12. Axel woke up expecting Isa to be there. There is no reason for Isa to be there and for all Axel knows, to even be alive. Just because his nobody was defeated, it doesn't automaticaly mean that his heartless has been defeated too. Does Axel have access to the script?

13. Maleficent is in Disney Castle, ignoring the cornerstone of light.

14. Traverse Town was still in the Realm of Sleep after they "woke it up".

15. When the new Organization gathers in TWTNW and through some unexplained time restriction they have to return to whence they came, everyone dissapears through the same effect in the round room even though many of them are not time travelers.

16. According to Nomura, when someone is recompleted as a human their body sustains the damage they took as nobodies, which means that Old Xehanort literally can't be recompleted BECAUSE HIS BODY WAS COMPLETELY DESTROYED WHEN HE LEFT IT BEHIND TO POSSES TERRA'S.

17. IF YOU DECIDED THAT THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE ORGANIZATION IN KH2 WAS TO "round up a bunch of empty husks and hook the up to Kingdom Hearts and give them Xehanorts heart" THEN HOW IS BRAIG ALREADY HALF XEHANORT. IF YOU COULD NORT PEOPLE WITHOUT KH, AS WE SEE WITH BRAIG IN THE OPENING, THEN WHY BOTHER CREATING AN ENTIRE KH TO DO IT?

18. Why did they gather in TWTNW in the first place. What union could ever be achieved there? It's the wrong place.

19. YX explanation of time travel is wrong. According to Nomura, you don't have to leave your body behind. In most of ddd's time traveller's cases, it is not a nessecity. Terranort separating himself into a heartless and a nobody made it so that every version of himself throughout time was now in a fit state to do so, indefinately. So, according to Nomura you only need to leave your body behind ONCE. And then the power of time travel can be passed down to whichever version of yourself you choose to give it to.

20. Why didn't Young Xehanort travel further into the future. Why does the future lie beyond his sight. A version of himself clearly exists in KH3. Why not travel further than DDD to know how it all ends?

21. In his reports in BBS Xehanort explicitly says that he found the way to summon the "complete" KH. He needed a clash between darkness and light. No mention of 13 or 7. Retcon

22. Xehanort -Ansem's KH1 plan makes literally zero sense in retrospect. If he had already travelled to the past to talk to Young Xehanort and knew that the plan to gather 7 lights and 13 darknesses was already in motion, why does he go through with trying to create an artificial KH by destroying all those worlds. What does he gain by doing that. If he had planted himself in Destiny Islands just to be certain that a version of himself exists in that point in time, so that he can hijack time traveling Sora's exam, why does the rest of KH1 happen? He knew that he would be destroyed? Why did he have to be destroyed in KH1? What part of Xehanorts plan, nessesitated Ansem being destroyed by Sora in KH1.

23. If the plan was for them to use replicas, why are they using YX to round up the org members through time and bring them over to TWTNW. As I already explained, YX bring everyone back WITH their bodies. They later use replicas in KH3. Why?

24. Edit: Riku's explanation of why he had the dreameater powers in the real world, contradicts both a cutscene later and Nomura's explanation. In a later cutscene, Braig when revealing that Sora is still dreaming, claims that Sora's form would have changed back to regular if he was "back home". Riku says that he knows he himself is back in the real world but the reason he has the dream eater powers (and we can assume the form as well) is because Sora hasn't woken up yet. Neither of those explanations are correct. According to Nomura, they would have to return to Yen Sid's tower for their forms to return to normal. Their forms are still different not because Sora isn't awake as Riku claims, and certainly not because they aren't "back home" like Braig claims.

25. Xemnas explains that most of the original members of the Organization were unfit to carry out their goals. Yet in KH3 XEMNAS BRINGS BACK INTO THE ORGANIZATION THE FOLLOWING PREVIOUS MEMBERS
1)MARLUXIA: A LITERAL TRAITOR
2)LARXENE
3)LUXORD
4)XIGBAR
5)SAIX
6)XION
7)HIMSELF
8) DEMYX AS BACKUP
9)VEXEN AS BACKUP
10) YX MENTIONS THAT ROXAS WAS A WORTHY CANDIDATE

EVEN IF YOU DON'T COUNT THE BACK UP MEMBERS, XEMNAS OBVIOUSLY THOUGHT THAT AT LEAST HALF OF THE ORIGINAL MEMBERS ARE STILL VIABLE OPTIONS FOR THE NEW ORGANIZATION. WHAT IS HE SAYING.

26. YX explains to Sora that he's been to TraverseTown many times. He references his COM visit as one of them to Sora, a character that literally doesn't remember doing that. Why? Why reference a thing he literally has no memory of? Also this scene is 1000% pointless and means actually nothing just in general

27. YX mentions that Sora has been to Traverse Town many times. He claims that one of them was in recoded, which is literally wrong. That was data Sora's visit. A separate being.

28. "Promises to keep. I'll always be there to bring my friends back". Yeah cute throwback guys also a plothole cause that line was said to Xion. Every memory connected to her is supposed to have been erased from the memories of the people that knew her.

29. Sora "loses his powers" in the end but is somehow able to go back to plothole Traverse Town.

30. Braig claims that the keyblade wouldn't ever choose Sora. And Sora agrees and says he doesn't care. Even though Sora is the ONLY PERSON WE'VE SEEN THAT WAS ACTUALLY CHOSEN BY THE KEYBLADE. No ceremony to pass it down to him. The Keyblade unquestionably CHOSE HIM OVER RIKU.

31. "I don't care if the keyblade didn't chose me. I'm proud to be part OF THE PEOPLE IT DID CHOOSE" is a non sequitur. It is an insane sentence, spoken by a very confused young man. Also a plot hole.

32. In KH3 we see that nobodies can detect the princesses of heart by identifying their particularly strong hearts. Which means they can sense hearts. Which means they should be able to KNOW THAT THEY HAVE HEARTS BEFORE XEMNAS REVEALED IT.

Yo, long time lurker, first time poster here. You make some great valid points, here are just some of my opinions and perspectives on how to explain some of them.

2. 3. 7. and the Yen Sid problem as a whole. I think we can all agree Yen Sid is a very poorly explained character in terms of powers and knowledge. If you want to be really technical, when you look at what is shown to us in the games, we have no idea what he knows or doesn't. The best case I could give is we never see a scene where Mickey tells him what happened. Did MIckey know/tell him Kairi was a POH? A keyblade wielder? Why would she need protected if that was never explained to him? For the sleeping worlds, there are limits to YS's sight, we see in Ven's story in BBS that he was able to conjure a vision of Mickey once he loses the star shard and stops teleporting around, but wasn't able to pinpoint exactly what world, Ven has to tell him that he recognizes the world. So it's not impossible to say that he could see there were 7 worlds, but they were too shadowy/blurry to be able to know WHAT worlds they were. The Destiny Islands thing is valid and a wash for me though.

6. Totally fair that she goes against her word, but that same as with KH1, and several other times she has been easily persuaded by The Boys to stay back for her own "safety"(more like there own kind of manly pride, but I digress), Kairi having bad character development, 100% agree, but it being a plothole so to speak might be debatable.

10. Maybe I'm misremembering, but since they started DDD in DI together, the goal was for them to stay and work as a team to save the worlds in the sleeping realm, we've seen in many other cutscenes such as the end of KH2, as well as their double keyblade move in TWTNW that more then one wielder can participate in the little dance shuffle laser beam of unlocking something. It was only for the fact that True Org separated the two that they were alone.

12. I agree with SweetYetSalty here, as far as we can tell, from KH2, none of them knew they were coming back, so he woke up, and saw almost all of his colleagues there, but not Isa, so even if he didn't know the process of both parts being destroyed, he could easily look around and wonder why everyone but Isa was back.

13. There aren't any rules stated that I could find that say she couldn't be in DC at all, or that darkness couldn't be in DC at all since almost every person supposedly has SOME darkness in their heart, but the cornerstone of light simple dampens darkness and keeps it from overwhelming the castle. The only powers we see her use in DDD are one little fireball, and a dark corridor, Pete had to physically restrain Minnie in order for their gambit to play out.

15. Yeah that hole scene is filled with a plenty of problems, but I personally see it as they didn't want to stick around and fight and lose any members when retroactively at that point the replica/member supply was fairly limited.

17. Mostly true except both Ansem SOD and Xemnas didn't technically know what the plan due to stupid inconsistent time travel rules, they merely had a vague pushing to gather seven hearts of light, and 13 darkness/vessels. So Xemnas gathered the 13 to give them hearts, not actually nort them, but Xehanort's goal when not time travel amnesiac was to nort them.

18. Because that was where they were luring Sora to nort him and they wanted to have a party over their victory I guess?

21. Is a retcon a plothole as long as it follows the rules? Xehanort was right, you need darkness and light to clash THATS IT, and it worked with Ven/Vanitus, but it wasn't fully complete as is mentioned that he tried to cheat by merely having pure light and darkness. 17 vs 13 was the correct way to do it, there's nothing to contradict it, as much as there was nothing to purport it in BBS. Since we've had however many games with Xehanort reports, they are very clearly fragments of a guy who clearly write WAY too much of his evil plans. You can't argue there isn't one from when he was in younger that he knew about 13 vs 7 and/or pure lights vs pure dark.

25. Perhaps more of a personal opinion than pure fact, but I see it as this. All of those people became unfit because we learn that nobodies DO regrow hearts, Xehanort wanted people with as little resistance/free will as possible. Org 13 was around for a good while, and more than likely regrew some of their hearts(hell, it took Roxas less than a year), thus making them unfit. Now that they brought them back, and made them nobodies again, and Xehanort was recompleted, he could nort them right then and there, without hearts, as more fitting vessels.

26. Like you say at the end of your point, it's a totally pointless comment, not a plothole. All the Org and villains just love to screw with Sora, even in KH3 there are comments to Sora about CoM even though he has no memory of it. Also where is it ever explained to the Org that Sora had to lose his memories in order to come back in KH2. They only know that Sora was taken away, or that someone would have the decency to tell him what happened after being asleep for a year. Stupid? Yes. Pointless? Yes. Plothole? Not really.

28. Agreed with SweetYetSalty, you claim that any memory involving Xion is gone, but I'd be willing to wager there were equal if not more times that RAX were up on the TT clock tower than there were just Roxas and Axel, but Axel was still very close friends with all of them. We see in KH3 with Kairi and Lea, with Sora and Roxas, and with the time travel pseudo memories thing that even if the literal memories aren't available, on a subconscious level you can still remember things you said even if you don't remember the actual person or details. It's a stretch I'll give you that, but hardly one that goes too for as to make it unbelievable or a plothole.

30. There's a argument to be had based on some of the extra materials/Nomura that the keyblade still did not choose Sora, just that Riku was steeped in the darkness long enough that he ended up just getting his own keyblade later. If Riku hadn't been so dang evil in KH1, the keyblade might as well have stayed with Riku forever. Technically, I could even see it being realistic that Riku could take the keyblade back right now if he wanted to. I mostly agree with you, but I think it merits discussion amongst more than just myself what counts as the keyblade "choosing" someone, vs. it just sticking around long enough that the merit for it to be taken away no longer applies.

 

[KeybladeLordSora]

There was absolutely no reason that Kairi couldn't of taken the exam in DDD. None. Even if Yen Sid wasn't aware of her being a wielder until the very end of the game she could of insisted on going with the boys and informing the old man herself.

Makes me glad Melody of Memory showed her making her own decisions this time.

Glad she chose to train with Aqua than in the Hyperbolic Disney Time Forest. I swear, that chamber only ever worked with Gohan anyway.

 

[Barbas]

Yo, long time lurker, first time poster here. You make some great valid points, here are just some of my opinions and perspectives on how to explain some of them.

2. 3. 7. and the Yen Sid problem as a whole. I think we can all agree Yen Sid is a very poorly explained character in terms of powers and knowledge. If you want to be really technical, when you look at what is shown to us in the games, we have no idea what he knows or doesn't. The best case I could give is we never see a scene where Mickey tells him what happened. Did MIckey know/tell him Kairi was a POH? A keyblade wielder? Why would she need protected if that was never explained to him? For the sleeping worlds, there are limits to YS's sight, we see in Ven's story in BBS that he was able to conjure a vision of Mickey once he loses the star shard and stops teleporting around, but wasn't able to pinpoint exactly what world, Ven has to tell him that he recognizes the world. So it's not impossible to say that he could see there were 7 worlds, but they were too shadowy/blurry to be able to know WHAT worlds they were. The Destiny Islands thing is valid and a wash for me though.

6. Totally fair that she goes against her word, but that same as with KH1, and several other times she has been easily persuaded by The Boys to stay back for her own "safety"(more like there own kind of manly pride, but I digress), Kairi having bad character development, 100% agree, but it being a plothole so to speak might be debatable.

10. Maybe I'm misremembering, but since they started DDD in DI together, the goal was for them to stay and work as a team to save the worlds in the sleeping realm, we've seen in many other cutscenes such as the end of KH2, as well as their double keyblade move in TWTNW that more then one wielder can participate in the little dance shuffle laser beam of unlocking something. It was only for the fact that True Org separated the two that they were alone.

12. I agree with SweetYetSalty here, as far as we can tell, from KH2, none of them knew they were coming back, so he woke up, and saw almost all of his colleagues there, but not Isa, so even if he didn't know the process of both parts being destroyed, he could easily look around and wonder why everyone but Isa was back.

13. There aren't any rules stated that I could find that say she couldn't be in DC at all, or that darkness couldn't be in DC at all since almost every person supposedly has SOME darkness in their heart, but the cornerstone of light simple dampens darkness and keeps it from overwhelming the castle. The only powers we see her use in DDD are one little fireball, and a dark corridor, Pete had to physically restrain Minnie in order for their gambit to play out.

15. Yeah that hole scene is filled with a plenty of problems, but I personally see it as they didn't want to stick around and fight and lose any members when retroactively at that point the replica/member supply was fairly limited.

17. Mostly true except both Ansem SOD and Xemnas didn't technically know what the plan due to stupid inconsistent time travel rules, they merely had a vague pushing to gather seven hearts of light, and 13 darkness/vessels. So Xemnas gathered the 13 to give them hearts, not actually nort them, but Xehanort's goal when not time travel amnesiac was to nort them.

18. Because that was where they were luring Sora to nort him and they wanted to have a party over their victory I guess?

21. Is a retcon a plothole as long as it follows the rules? Xehanort was right, you need darkness and light to clash THATS IT, and it worked with Ven/Vanitus, but it wasn't fully complete as is mentioned that he tried to cheat by merely having pure light and darkness. 17 vs 13 was the correct way to do it, there's nothing to contradict it, as much as there was nothing to purport it in BBS. Since we've had however many games with Xehanort reports, they are very clearly fragments of a guy who clearly write WAY too much of his evil plans. You can't argue there isn't one from when he was in younger that he knew about 13 vs 7 and/or pure lights vs pure dark.

25. Perhaps more of a personal opinion than pure fact, but I see it as this. All of those people became unfit because we learn that nobodies DO regrow hearts, Xehanort wanted people with as little resistance/free will as possible. Org 13 was around for a good while, and more than likely regrew some of their hearts(hell, it took Roxas less than a year), thus making them unfit. Now that they brought them back, and made them nobodies again, and Xehanort was recompleted, he could nort them right then and there, without hearts, as more fitting vessels.

26. Like you say at the end of your point, it's a totally pointless comment, not a plothole. All the Org and villains just love to screw with Sora, even in KH3 there are comments to Sora about CoM even though he has no memory of it. Also where is it ever explained to the Org that Sora had to lose his memories in order to come back in KH2. They only know that Sora was taken away, or that someone would have the decency to tell him what happened after being asleep for a year. Stupid? Yes. Pointless? Yes. Plothole? Not really.

28. Agreed with SweetYetSalty, you claim that any memory involving Xion is gone, but I'd be willing to wager there were equal if not more times that RAX were up on the TT clock tower than there were just Roxas and Axel, but Axel was still very close friends with all of them. We see in KH3 with Kairi and Lea, with Sora and Roxas, and with the time travel pseudo memories thing that even if the literal memories aren't available, on a subconscious level you can still remember things you said even if you don't remember the actual person or details. It's a stretch I'll give you that, but hardly one that goes too for as to make it unbelievable or a plothole.

30. There's a argument to be had based on some of the extra materials/Nomura that the keyblade still did not choose Sora, just that Riku was steeped in the darkness long enough that he ended up just getting his own keyblade later. If Riku hadn't been so dang evil in KH1, the keyblade might as well have stayed with Riku forever. Technically, I could even see it being realistic that Riku could take the keyblade back right now if he wanted to. I mostly agree with you, but I think it merits discussion amongst more than just myself what counts as the keyblade "choosing" someone, vs. it just sticking around long enough that the merit for it to be taken away no longer applies.

Hey sorry I didn't reply sooner, I'm trying to get to all of these. The ones i wanna adress are:

10. We've seen these guys working together, opening pathways and using their powers in unison. That is 100% correct. The problem with DDD is that the sleeping keyholes, evidently, only ever needed 1 keyblade to be dealt with. Not...2. And if simply unlocking the keyholes wasn't the point of the exam but it was actually the proccess of fighting the nightmares before dealing with the keyhole...then...the exam was 100%, absolutely, unquestionably irrelevant. Sora and Riku had already taken down like 90000 heartless each. They had already proved themselves in combat. Yen Sid claimed they had to forget their preconcieved notions about the keyblade cause things would be different in the sleeping realm. Yet there was no meaningful difference. The sleeping worlds were literally just worlds. The enemies were just enemies.

13. If their physical presense in DC wasn't prohibited by virtue of the COL, then their ENTIRE plan in kh2 is unbelievably stupid. All they ever wanted in thst game was to take over DC. If they could simply jump in, kidnap Miney and just take over then literally what was the point of DC's plot in kh2?

26. Marluxia acknowledges Sora's COM related amnesia in KH3.

21. The reason I view it as a plothole and not simply a retcon is because DDD seems to have forgotten what MX's plan was in BBS.
For instance, in the round room confrontation, MX says something so WEIRD that it really leads me to believe that while writting DDD's plot, they kinda forgot how thing went down in BBS.
MX claims that he acted rashly in BBS, and that he had lost track of the correct path back then. And there is like at least 2 different inconsistencies in that statement alone.
First of all and probably most importantly, Xehanort's plan wasn't rushed. In BBS we are to understand that Ventus served MX for a good while before Xehanort decided to separate him into 2 beings.
After the separation, Xehanort took Ven to Eraqus and patiently waited for *4 whole years* for Ven to get stronger before going forward with his sceme. This wasn't some rushed plan he cooked up in a matter of days.

Secondly, when reading the Xehanort Reports in BBS, he never, EVER mentions anything about 7 vs 13. He doesn't say that he is just so eager to try and get KH that he'll have to deviate from some orthodox path. There's an entire Report dedicated to him discovering the correct way to get KH, he makes it clear that he is talking about the complete union, and not an artificial creation, and there's no mention of 7 vs 13. Anywere.

So yeah these were my thoughts. I know I didn't respond to all of them but some of the things I could say here are things I've already kind of explained in previous comments. I hope this clears things up a little about my original post, which I admit, could have been worded better.

 

[RojasKBM]

Hey sorry I didn't reply sooner, I'm trying to get to all of these. The ones i wanna adress are:

10. We've seen these guys working together, opening pathways and using their powers in unison. That is 100% correct. The problem with DDD is that the sleeping keyholes, evidently, only ever needed 1 keyblade to be dealt with. Not...2. And if simply unlocking the keyholes wasn't the point of the exam but it was actually the proccess of fighting the nightmares before dealing with the keyhole...then...the exam was 100%, absolutely, unquestionably irrelevant. Sora and Riku had already taken down like 90000 heartless each. They had already proved themselves in combat. Yen Sid claimed they had to forget their preconcieved notions about the keyblade cause things would be different in the sleeping realm. Yet there was no meaningful difference. The sleeping worlds were literally just worlds. The enemies were just enemies.

13. If their physical presense in DC wasn't prohibited by virtue of the COL, then their ENTIRE plan in kh2 is unbelievably stupid. All they ever wanted in thst game was to take over DC. If they could simply jump in, kidnap Miney and just take over then literally what was the point of DC's plot in kh2?

26. Marluxia acknowledges Sora's COM related amnesia in KH3.

21. The reason I view it as a plothole and not simply a retcon is because DDD seems to have forgotten what MX's plan was in BBS.
For instance, in the round room confrontation, MX says something so WEIRD that it really leads me to believe that while writting DDD's plot, they kinda forgot how thing went down in BBS.
MX claims that he acted rashly in BBS, and that he had lost track of the correct path back then. And there is like at least 2 different inconsistencies in that statement alone.
First of all and probably most importantly, Xehanort's plan wasn't rushed. In BBS we are to understand that Ventus served MX for a good while before Xehanort decided to separate him into 2 beings.
After the separation, Xehanort took Ven to Eraqus and patiently waited for *4 whole years* for Ven to get stronger before going forward with his sceme. This wasn't some rushed plan he cooked up in a matter of days.

Secondly, when reading the Xehanort Reports in BBS, he never, EVER mentions anything about 7 vs 13. He doesn't say that he is just so eager to try and get KH that he'll have to deviate from some orthodox path. There's an entire Report dedicated to him discovering the correct way to get KH, he makes it clear that he is talking about the complete union, and not an artificial creation, and there's no mention of 7 vs 13. Anywere.

So yeah these were my thoughts. I know I didn't respond to all of them but some of the things I could say here are things I've already kind of explained in previous comments. I hope this clears things up a little about my original post, which I admit, could have been worded better.

I've actually been replaying through the whole series right now, and am just finishing BBS, let me elaborate at least on one note here.

21. Xehanort report 8 MX opines "Powers help me, I thought, my body is so old..." Inferring that, sounds a whole lot like a man who knows he is short on time. While in Report 10 he regards that Ventus was not a suitable vessel to carry his heart into. We can gather from the fact that Braig was already a willing collaborator, that he wanted/needed to choose a keyblade wielder instead, and Terra is the only one he could find with the right darkness, so the man was genuinely running out of time(why Vanitas wasn't suitable is another topic, but I digress.)

Also literally in report 6 he remarks about needing 7 pure hearts of light to forge a keyblade of heart, that can unlock the door to Kingdom Hearts and lists its power as very similar to his goal of the X Blade(that is, to have power over all hearts both people and worlds, in reports 4, and 7.) It is also implied the Maleficent and Xehanort interacted, and that is what spurred her to go on the search for the 7 POH, what explanation would he have for that other than for a potential grand backup plan if Ven/Van didn't work out hmm...? Especially when we learn matter of factly that the seven POH do in fact work for the 7 vs 13 narrative, which the 7 is made evident in KH1/BBS, and the 13 was made evident in KH2. Which came out before BBS, thus implying some significance to the number(y'know they named themselves that before they ever had 13 members and all) that Nomura had in mind.

Now, there is a point that in report it does specifically state that the X blade is summoned when two equal hearts clash, one of light, and of dark. You can take this a few ways

A. If you choose to take the story as an artistic piece, the poetic license would show that all of Org 13 is composed of 13 fragments of ONE SINGULAR HEART, that MX placed into each vessels that had no heart otherwise, since they were nobodies, and Sora, whose entire arc, identity, and plot significance is that his power is from the bonds of his friends, who fight on the side of light. While this isn't totally logical, I believe it at least makes sense poetically, which is why we as consumers suspend our disbelief and the message takes precedence than delving into pure logic, cause that would be boring as hell.

B. Considering that all of MXs works are the works of research, and he is not an omniscient being, he wrote in report 6 of there only being 3 types of keyblades, and then one report later suddenly learns of the X blade. I genuinly believe that it's not that much of a stretch to say MX figured it out at a different point, or that considering the in-game merely claims they are an excerpt from MX's writings, how much of a stretch is it that there isn't one that mentions 13 shards of darkness.

C. We know from Union X that the X blade came about during the first first war between darkness, which was one entity split up into parts, and light, whom we don't know about yet, and could very well narratively tie together with Xehanort's findings of the 1 vs 1 to make the X blade later.

I hope you don't take offense to my defense of this particular point. No hard feeling against you, just my own perspective is all. I feel we have to keep in mind that a retcon, is not a plot hole if it follows the rules, and it's very important to remember that a lack of exposition, does not equal a lack of explanation. When you are world building, we don't have access to every single step someone makes or rule, you have to let the world breathe so to speak. Not every series gets its Silmarillion. While I think DDD is written poorly, it doesn't mean it's illogical or broken, just badly written.

 

[Soldier]

There's also a 33rd plot hole that you likely didn't think about

33: The Char/Chill Clawbster: Alright, the boss of Prankster's paradise makes no sense. I get the idea, what they initially envisioned was a crustacean with cryonic powers strong enough to freeze Monstro solid. I understand that. But what part of it getting swallowed by Monstro makes it change it's element when Riku fights it? I'm trying to wrap my head around it but it's just doesn't make any sense! Is it the same nightmare? the game sure treats it like it is given that the stories of DDD are often linked (See Traverse Town and Country of the Musketeers) but even in a fantasy game like KH, any animal in another animal's digestion will LOSE parts from the stomach acid, which the Clawbster clearly had to have contact with to get into the bowels. Maybe they could've brought back the bio spell from final fantasy and give it the ability to spray acid on Riku alla the parasite cage in KH 1.

 

[RojasKBM]

I've actually been replaying through the whole series right now, and am just finishing BBS, let me elaborate at least on one note here.

21. Xehanort report 8 MX opines "Powers help me, I thought, my body is so old..." Inferring that, sounds a whole lot like a man who knows he is short on time. While in Report 10 he regards that Ventus was not a suitable vessel to carry his heart into. We can gather from the fact that Braig was already a willing collaborator, that he wanted/needed to choose a keyblade wielder instead, and Terra is the only one he could find with the right darkness, so the man was genuinely running out of time(why Vanitas wasn't suitable is another topic, but I digress.)

Also literally in report 6 he remarks about needing 7 pure hearts of light to forge a keyblade of heart, that can unlock the door to Kingdom Hearts and lists its power as very similar to his goal of the X Blade(that is, to have power over all hearts both people and worlds, in reports 4, and 7.) It is also implied the Maleficent and Xehanort interacted, and that is what spurred her to go on the search for the 7 POH, what explanation would he have for that other than for a potential grand backup plan if Ven/Van didn't work out hmm...? Especially when we learn matter of factly that the seven POH do in fact work for the 7 vs 13 narrative, which the 7 is made evident in KH1/BBS, and the 13 was made evident in KH2. Which came out before BBS, thus implying some significance to the number(y'know they named themselves that before they ever had 13 members and all) that Nomura had in mind.

Now, there is a point that in report it does specifically state that the X blade is summoned when two equal hearts clash, one of light, and of dark. You can take this a few ways

A. If you choose to take the story as an artistic piece, the poetic license would show that all of Org 13 is composed of 13 fragments of ONE SINGULAR HEART, that MX placed into each vessels that had no heart otherwise, since they were nobodies, and Sora, whose entire arc, identity, and plot significance is that his power is from the bonds of his friends, who fight on the side of light. While this isn't totally logical, I believe it at least makes sense poetically, which is why we as consumers suspend our disbelief and the message takes precedence than delving into pure logic, cause that would be boring as hell.

B. Considering that all of MXs works are the works of research, and he is not an omniscient being, he wrote in report 6 of there only being 3 types of keyblades, and then one report later suddenly learns of the X blade. I genuinly believe that it's not that much of a stretch to say MX figured it out at a different point, or that considering the in-game merely claims they are an excerpt from MX's writings, how much of a stretch is it that there isn't one that mentions 13 shards of darkness.

C. We know from Union X that the X blade came about during the first first war between darkness, which was one entity split up into parts, and light, whom we don't know about yet, and could very well narratively tie together with Xehanort's findings of the 1 vs 1 to make the X blade later.

I hope you don't take offense to my defense of this particular point. No hard feeling against you, just my own perspective is all. I feel we have to keep in mind that a retcon, is not a plot hole if it follows the rules, and it's very important to remember that a lack of exposition, does not equal a lack of explanation. When you are world building, we don't have access to every single step someone makes or rule, you have to let the world breathe so to speak. Not every series gets its Silmarillion. While I think DDD is written poorly, it doesn't mean it's illogical or broken, just badly written.

Also in continuance to point A. We know that with Sora fights alongside all of the guardians against the Norts, he also travels back in Remind and his time traveling heart is inside each of the guardians as they fight(possibly even controlling them?) Further selling home the one for all narrative, and fulfilling both BBSs 1 v 1, and DDDs 7 v 13 requirements.

If you go back and look from KH1 Kingdom Hearts is formed with 7 hearts of light, then KH2 its retconned that oh no you get KH from collecting hearts, to BBS it's retconned to oh no the real KH is from dark and lights clash for reasons. DDD Actually is the one who seals up those retcons to prove that you actually need all 3, here's how we learn this in KH3.

You need 7 PoH/Guardians of light, this affirms KH1s KH which is the power over all worlds.

You need a large collection of hearts, this is brought upon by the constant hordes of heartless the Org throws at our heroes, and through the connections of the heart become a new powerful being.
You need a powerful force of light and dark to clash, this is what summons the X blade. As echoed by what we know from Union X about the primordial battle between dark, which was one collective being, and light, which we don't know yet, which was occurring at the time the X blade was very first forged.

No matter how much I believe DDD is poorly written and filled with plot holes, at the very least in retrospect enough of the math checks out.

 

[Barbas]

I've actually been replaying through the whole series right now, and am just finishing BBS, let me elaborate at least on one note here.

21. Xehanort report 8 MX opines "Powers help me, I thought, my body is so old..." Inferring that, sounds a whole lot like a man who knows he is short on time. While in Report 10 he regards that Ventus was not a suitable vessel to carry his heart into. We can gather from the fact that Braig was already a willing collaborator, that he wanted/needed to choose a keyblade wielder instead, and Terra is the only one he could find with the right darkness, so the man was genuinely running out of time(why Vanitas wasn't suitable is another topic, but I digress.)

Also literally in report 6 he remarks about needing 7 pure hearts of light to forge a keyblade of heart, that can unlock the door to Kingdom Hearts and lists its power as very similar to his goal of the X Blade(that is, to have power over all hearts both people and worlds, in reports 4, and 7.) It is also implied the Maleficent and Xehanort interacted, and that is what spurred her to go on the search for the 7 POH, what explanation would he have for that other than for a potential grand backup plan if Ven/Van didn't work out hmm...? Especially when we learn matter of factly that the seven POH do in fact work for the 7 vs 13 narrative, which the 7 is made evident in KH1/BBS, and the 13 was made evident in KH2. Which came out before BBS, thus implying some significance to the number(y'know they named themselves that before they ever had 13 members and all) that Nomura had in mind.

Now, there is a point that in report it does specifically state that the X blade is summoned when two equal hearts clash, one of light, and of dark. You can take this a few ways

A. If you choose to take the story as an artistic piece, the poetic license would show that all of Org 13 is composed of 13 fragments of ONE SINGULAR HEART, that MX placed into each vessels that had no heart otherwise, since they were nobodies, and Sora, whose entire arc, identity, and plot significance is that his power is from the bonds of his friends, who fight on the side of light. While this isn't totally logical, I believe it at least makes sense poetically, which is why we as consumers suspend our disbelief and the message takes precedence than delving into pure logic, cause that would be boring as hell.

B. Considering that all of MXs works are the works of research, and he is not an omniscient being, he wrote in report 6 of there only being 3 types of keyblades, and then one report later suddenly learns of the X blade. I genuinly believe that it's not that much of a stretch to say MX figured it out at a different point, or that considering the in-game merely claims they are an excerpt from MX's writings, how much of a stretch is it that there isn't one that mentions 13 shards of darkness.

C. We know from Union X that the X blade came about during the first first war between darkness, which was one entity split up into parts, and light, whom we don't know about yet, and could very well narratively tie together with Xehanort's findings of the 1 vs 1 to make the X blade later.

I hope you don't take offense to my defense of this particular point. No hard feeling against you, just my own perspective is all. I feel we have to keep in mind that a retcon, is not a plot hole if it follows the rules, and it's very important to remember that a lack of exposition, does not equal a lack of explanation. When you are world building, we don't have access to every single step someone makes or rule, you have to let the world breathe so to speak. Not every series gets its Silmarillion. While I think DDD is written poorly, it doesn't mean it's illogical or broken, just badly written.

I've actually been replaying through the whole series right now, and am just finishing BBS, let me elaborate at least on one note here.

21. Xehanort report 8 MX opines "Powers help me, I thought, my body is so old..." Inferring that, sounds a whole lot like a man who knows he is short on time. While in Report 10 he regards that Ventus was not a suitable vessel to carry his heart into. We can gather from the fact that Braig was already a willing collaborator, that he wanted/needed to choose a keyblade wielder instead, and Terra is the only one he could find with the right darkness, so the man was genuinely running out of time(why Vanitas wasn't suitable is another topic, but I digress.)

Also literally in report 6 he remarks about needing 7 pure hearts of light to forge a keyblade of heart, that can unlock the door to Kingdom Hearts and lists its power as very similar to his goal of the X Blade(that is, to have power over all hearts both people and worlds, in reports 4, and 7.) It is also implied the Maleficent and Xehanort interacted, and that is what spurred her to go on the search for the 7 POH, what explanation would he have for that other than for a potential grand backup plan if Ven/Van didn't work out hmm...? Especially when we learn matter of factly that the seven POH do in fact work for the 7 vs 13 narrative, which the 7 is made evident in KH1/BBS, and the 13 was made evident in KH2. Which came out before BBS, thus implying some significance to the number(y'know they named themselves that before they ever had 13 members and all) that Nomura had in mind.

Now, there is a point that in report it does specifically state that the X blade is summoned when two equal hearts clash, one of light, and of dark. You can take this a few ways

A. If you choose to take the story as an artistic piece, the poetic license would show that all of Org 13 is composed of 13 fragments of ONE SINGULAR HEART, that MX placed into each vessels that had no heart otherwise, since they were nobodies, and Sora, whose entire arc, identity, and plot significance is that his power is from the bonds of his friends, who fight on the side of light. While this isn't totally logical, I believe it at least makes sense poetically, which is why we as consumers suspend our disbelief and the message takes precedence than delving into pure logic, cause that would be boring as hell.

B. Considering that all of MXs works are the works of research, and he is not an omniscient being, he wrote in report 6 of there only being 3 types of keyblades, and then one report later suddenly learns of the X blade. I genuinly believe that it's not that much of a stretch to say MX figured it out at a different point, or that considering the in-game merely claims they are an excerpt from MX's writings, how much of a stretch is it that there isn't one that mentions 13 shards of darkness.

C. We know from Union X that the X blade came about during the first first war between darkness, which was one entity split up into parts, and light, whom we don't know about yet, and could very well narratively tie together with Xehanort's findings of the 1 vs 1 to make the X blade later.

I hope you don't take offense to my defense of this particular point. No hard feeling against you, just my own perspective is all. I feel we have to keep in mind that a retcon, is not a plot hole if it follows the rules, and it's very important to remember that a lack of exposition, does not equal a lack of explanation. When you are world building, we don't have access to every single step someone makes or rule, you have to let the world breathe so to speak. Not every series gets its Silmarillion. While I think DDD is written poorly, it doesn't mean it's illogical or broken, just badly written.

Hey yeah don't worry about it, creating dialogue around these issues was my intention when i posted the original thread.
So, I think I found a way to comprehensively explain why I view 21 as more of a plothole and less of a retcon.

21. I believe the thing that pushes the 7 vs 13 thing into plothole territory for me is the fact that bbs had a report, written by MX, when he first discovered how to achieve what he always wanted. If there wasn't a report in bbs that unquestionably described a very specific proccess for a very specific goal, then I could probably view this situation as a simple retcon. But due to the fact that written lore and hard facts about KH and the X blade were literally ignored in DDD, in order for the new "cool" rule to emerge, I honenstly can't view this as anything but a plothole.
The problem with DDD and Mx's plan is the incredible amount of reaching I would have to do for literally any of it to make sense. That's a privilage I don't grant to any other peice of media. 90% of the things the characters say are lore exposition and like half of it is actual nonsense, even by the standards they set.
Take for example MX's statement in that same round room scene, when he says that he once tried his own pure light and darkness. The script is so dissonant that they excplicitely remind the audience "hey, remember how BBS's rules for creating the Xblade nessecitated the involvememt of pure light and pure darkness?" literal seconds before revealing that this is also NOT a requirement anymore. DDD didn't just change the number of people involved required to make the Xblade. They also erased the pre-existing rule about how the agents involved would have to be either pure light or pure darkness. They changed every single peice of spoken and written lore bbs brought to the table. It's this insane unwillingness to stay true, or even remember the rules that they set that makes me honestly unable to view these changes as retcons. These changes don't just recontextualize older dialogue. They erase pre-existing lore. They don't try to side step it, they just expect you to not care enough to think about it.

You talked a bit about different ways to interpret peices of lore for things to line up and make sense. I intentionaly tried to avoid interpretations in this thread, just because I wanted to talk about hard facts. It's totally ok if people use personal interpretations and head canon to experience kh. But if we were to talk about theories and interpretations we could fractal infinetely without any canonical basis. So yeah that's it i guess