Screenshots From KH3 And KH3: RE MIND That Prove, Beyond Doubt, That Kairi And the Princesses of Heart Possess Darkness

[Launchpad]

I don't think it's a particularly stunning revelation that a Princess of Heart can experience anger. As I recall, Rapunzel, Anna, and Elsa have all gotten angry at different stages of their stories. I think it's the intent that matters more than the emotion.

______________________________________________________________________________

"Oh yeah? Well the Jerk Store called, and they're running outta you!"
- George Costanza, Seinfeld

 

[Face My Fears]

Kairi was angry and in the heat of battle. We've seen other PoH or "pure light" characters do similar things - Ven comes to mind immediately.

Whenever a character uses darkness, especially if they want to emphasize it - they will show it (like Scar or Clayton). Even when Riku was turning to darkness in KH1, it was abundantly clear what was going on. Just because Kairi makes an angry face, that doesn't mean she turned to darkness.

"Beyond a doubt" is a bit much, I think. It could have been a cool theory, but there really isn't anything that hints at Kairi possessing darkness. In fact, her purity was put to the test when Namine was created - she never made a heartless when she lost her heart. Even the in-game logic showed that she is pure light.

 

[Lacan Valeth]

Face My Fears:
I'll respond to you first.

I really like your picture Signature. Xion isn't just one of my favorite KINGDOM HEARTS characters, if not my favorite, period. It's something I recently attempted to convince a friend of mine of about other friends of mine, but she got tired of me standing up for them and telling her that they have free will and the ability to think for themselves and make their own decisions regardless of what society believes, so she Blocked me from talking to her. I used that specific quote to her at one point when I was standing up for my friends.

So I'm glad to see that quote. That caused me to feel better. Thank you.

As a Xion fan yourself, you might be interested in my Thread about Xion being the 'traitor of the sigil' of the Lost Page of the Book of Prophecies, even though that theory has most likely been disproven.

Though, keep in mind that your quote can be applied to the Princesses of Heart as well. Saying that it's impossible for Princesses of Heart to feel darkness and that they don't have the same range of emotions that replicas do is calling *Princesses of Heart* 'it's.

Ven wasn't literally pure light. That's proven when he's compared to the guardians of light such as Riku or Terra a number of times.

And Kairi most likely didn't become a Heartless not for the reason that a vengeance-blinded Ansem the Wise believed, that Kairi had no darkness whatsoever, but because, since 'the closer you get to the light, the greater your shadow' becomes, Kairi *already* possesses so much darkness that transfiguring into a Heartless would be a major step *down.*

You have a point about Kairi making angry faces. But see my picture of Roxas and my picture of Sora. There's a difference between anger and hate.

Still, you have a point about characters showing their darkness.

So I'll return to my arguments that Kairi created the four Demon Tides in the KINGDOM HEARTS series, the Lich, and the two Demon Towers that you battle in the linear parts of KINGDOM HEARTS III.

There's too many coincidences surrounding the Demon Tides for their creator to be anyone but Kairi.

The first one manifested to attempt to prevent Mickey and Aqua from retrieving a Keyblade of Darkness that is a fractured spun glass reflection of Sora's Kingdom Key from the Secret Place of the play island of Destiny Islands after it fell to darkness, the single place that is the most important to Kairi on the Destiny Islands.

The second Demon Tide manifested at the Door to Darkness, where Kairi is about to show up to say goodbye to Sora, and specifically went after Riku, who has recently caused Sora a lot of pain and caused Sora to cascade into particles of light right in front of Kairi and lose his heart regardless of her efforts to prevent it.

The third Demon Tide manifests in Twilight Town and goes after Pence, Olette, and Hayner shortly after Sora begins confronting Roxas' hurt and pain, because - And the Demon Tide is predated by the words, 'Do you seek our liege?' I doubt that was the Dusks, or just the Dusks. It was most likely Kairi's darkness or the Demon Tide telling Sora that the Demon Tide would be there soon to protect Sora from Roxas' pain. - if Olette, Pence, and Hayner meet up with Sora, they'll cause Sora to experience more of Roxas' pain. But Kairi is in a separate space-time continuum from the rest of the realm of light at this point and Namine and Xion have strong connections to Twilight Town, so this contains Kairi's darkness and the third Demon Tide retreats without putting up that much of a fight.

The fourth Demon Tide, the gigantic one, manifests in the Keyblade Graveyard after Terra-Xehanort has just put Sora through a *heck* of a lot of pain and he nearly ended up sacrificing himself for Kairi once more and, for the second time, she was completely helpless and completely powerless to prevent it. Kairi probably created it - and the Lich - to curb-stomp Xehanort and the rest of the Real Organization Thirteen before they could cause Sora any further pain or potential pain, but, being a Heartless - or another dark entity, we don't know for sure that Demon Tides *are* Heartless, particularly since this one was born of Nobodies and Unversed as well as other Heartless - it and the Lich attempted to consume the Heartless nearby first and the gigantic Demon Tide and the Lich ended up almost curb-stomping the guardians of light and Goofy and Donald rather than Xehanort and the Real Organization Thirteen.

Also recall that, when Sora reverses space-time, this Demon Tide is reborn as a regular Demon Tide because Sora is more confident now, but when Sora defeats it and becomes terrified that this won't be enough and loses confidence, it re-assumes its initial gigantic size. And recall that Xehanort and the Real Organization Thirteen are specifically shown to *not* have called this Demon Tide as they call other Heartless. Terra-Xehanort says the guardians will be 'torn heart from body,' and Xemnas tells Lea/Axel and Kairi in RE MIND and Xion in the first version of KINGDOM HEARTS III that Xehanort needs the guardians' hearts if he can't foment enough clashes between darkness and light in the Second Keyblade War. And Riku tells Sora that Ven, Lea, and Donald still have their hearts after Goofy and Donald drive off or defeat Terra-Xehanort. The gigantic Demon Tide and the Lich consumed everyone's hearts but Sora's and Kairi's herself, which is *precisely* what Xehanort and the Real Organization Thirteen *didn't* want. So they, unless Luxu/Braig/Xigbar called the gigantic Demon Tide and the Lich for his own objectives, didn't call the Demon Tide and the Lich, and that means that *someone else* must have called them or created them.

Then there's the Lich. It carries multiple *chains.* Chains, as in Terra-Xehanort's ultimate ability, formed by his corrupted bonds with Aqua and Ven. The Lich's chains are probably corruptions of Kairi's bonds with the people she loves.

Lastly, the two Demon Towers at the Dark Margin - somewhere else specifically connected to Kairi - attempt to prevent Mickey and Riku from rescuing Aqua. Kairi was right there when she saw Riku's pain about Aqua sacrificing herself for him and was very upset about it, to the point that it was specifically *this* that drove her to tell Yen Sid she was there to attempt to become a better Keyblade wielder, so, given the coincidences - which, when there are *those many* coincidences, almost certainly *aren't* coincidences - surrounding the Demon Tides, she likely created the two Demon Towers to keep Aqua from causing Riku further pain if he met her, and to keep Mickey from hurting Riku further by keeping anything else from him and burdening Riku with any other responsibilities.

There's nothing yet that explicitly says that Kairi created the Demon Tides, so there's nothing yet that *shows* Kairi is wielding the darkness, unintentionally as with the Demon Tides, the Lich, and the Demon Towers, or as I argued she intentionally was with Xemnas - a point I now might concede since, yes, she didn't emanate any darkness - but there's *far* too many coincidences surrounding their manifestations and what they do once they manifest - as well as the Lich and the two Demon Towers - for anyone *but* Kairi to be responsible for the Demon Tides, the Lich, and the two Demon Towers.

I'll Edit this Post to respond to the rest later. I need to eat dinner now.

Paul

"We need him alive. You know that."-Xion
"We only need his heart in order to forge the key. We do not need his soul."-Xemnas
KINGDOM HEARTS III

 

[Idreamaboutcats]

I swear to God I am never, ever replying to this guy's thread after this, but I agree with what the others are saying so I'll bolster their arguments, and so this will be my very last say on the matter.

Most of the above said by Face My Fears and Launchpad are right. Negative emotions are not necessarily darkness, only that they can lead to it when expressed badly. Vanitas does this, but then again, he's not "human" anyway, so it's more like he's an exception, and even then, intent does matter. Vanitas wants to kill Ven to forge the mythical blade, and so on and so forth for the rest of the series. His negative emotions were laced with malice.

A non-malicious way to express negative emotions was Lady Ava's test against the Player, who experienced a great sadness over Ephemer's broken promise and presumed death. The Player stood up to what they believed was right and channeled their sadness to go against a Foreteller, of all people, for their friend.

Think of it this way in real world matters, what is more light to a person who experienced a great loss in their life? A friend who is always, always cheery and slaps them on the back with encouragements and a can-do attitude, or another friend who sits down with them, tells it like it is, but empathizes with their loss and cries on their behalf because they are sharing the pain, while not saying unnecessary words?

The former comes off as an insensitive, way too optimistic prick, and the latter is someone anyone would be glad to have in their life (I know I'm still looking for one).

The intent behind the emotion, that is, the heart of the matter, is what is the basis for it. Kairi worries more about her friends and being able to protect herself so she wouldn't be a burden to them, rather than blind fury at the Xehanorts.

With what Face My Fears said, they're right. Naminé's creation did put to the test Kairi's purity, and only proved it in spades. The only, and I mean ONLY, time Kairi had darkness within her, was a technicality of harboring Naminé within her post-KHII, by nature of Naminé being a Nobody, and therefore having access to dark abilities (i.e. summoning a corridor). however, it's more of a case with Naminé's new sense of self being placed in a "box"/"bubble" inside of Kairi rather than truly fusing, and Kairi remains uncorrupted. Even then, Naminé's true nature is unanswered even now, with Nomura teasing us that the "Thank You" Sora wants to say has been delayed for a little while longer past the Xehanort saga.

I'll say this for the last time: These theories cannot hold up against canon. The source material alone forbids it, in addition to the Ultimanias and interviews. Everything that's been said thereafter is already fanfiction territory, which isn't bad per se, but only on AU settings, not in the actual continuity.

 

[Lacan Valeth]

IDreamAboutCats:
I didn't think that Kairi might have created the dark corridor herself. She thanks Namine for doing it, but that was just Kairi's assumption. Thank you for bringing that up.

What does Sora thanking Namine have to do with her nature? Namine's personality growth and her nature are two entirely different issues. That said, what Namine is might still be a mystery as well as who she is, but, due to Sora not thanking Namine and for other reasons I won't get into, it's more likely Nomura is going to focus more on *who* Namine is than on *what* she is, though there might still be more to what she is.

Negative emotions aren't always darkness. I agree with this. But vengeance and hatred are. I'll get into that more shortly when I respond to the others.

And child Vanitas is human. Sora and Ven attempt to convince Vanitas of this himself.

"But I didn't ask for this. To be sifted, nice and neat. Not just light. Not just darkness. We should be free to choose."-Ven/Ventus

The same matters are true for the Princesses of Heart.

What is this possible 'broken promise' of Ephemer's? If you won't tell me, can someone else, please? I'd like to hear about this, as I'm a major fan of the love Ava shares with Ephemer.

As for real world matters... You're using a bad example, because you're saying and doing precisely what you object to someone hypothetically saying and doing. You're being way too optimistic about Kairi and the Princesses. She, as child Vanitas is, is as human as everyone else, with the flaws and the potential for darkness that this leads to. I recommend that you, as you put it, 'see things as they are and empathize with Kairi's pain.'

And Kairi doesn't worry about being able to protect *herself,* at all. Saying that Kairi does is very inaccurate. There's not the slightest amount of evidence in the series that Kairi selfishly cares about protecting *herself.* She just cares about protecting the people that she loves and cherishes and wants to be there for and support. Kairi is one of the most selfless characters in the KINGDOM HEARTS series, surpassed perhaps just by Anna. See, once again, Kairi getting so upset at Isa/Saix for saying that she's supposedly incapable of protecting the people that she loves. She *loathes* or *hates* the possibility that she's unable to love and protect Sora and others. Her facial expressions and body language when Sora or someone else is in pain are perhaps the most hateful and despairing of anyone in the entire KINGDOM HEARTS series. And you believe that Kairi cares at all about selfishly protecting herself? She sees herself as a burden because she can't protect *others.* Kairi could care *less* about protecting *herself.*

Oro.

Which is why, as I've been arguing, Kairi can experience and feel darkness. I never *once* said that Kairi is blindly furious at Xehanort or the Real Organization Thirteen. She hates them and is furious *because* she loves and cares for and is concerned about and worries about Sora and her friends. Kairi experiences and feels darkness *because* of how much she loves Sora and her other friends. To say that Kairi can't empathize with Sora's and Riku's pain and share it with them to the point that she can experience and feel their darkness in her own heart, and that this won't cause her to experience and feel darkness of her own, is to say that she's incapable of loving Sora and her other friends as much as someone who isn't a Princess of Heart can.

So you're being hypocritical to say people shouldn't be too optimistic and not feel each other's pain, and then turning around and refuse to understand or accept Kairi's pain, and her ability to cry and feel Sora's and other people's pain in Sora's place and in other people's places.

As Sora puts it about Xion, Roxas, and Lea/Axel, "They laughed together, got mad, and they grieved. You have to have a heart to cry." Kairi has a heart, so she can cry and feel pain as much as anyone else, even to the extremes of these negative emotions equaling darkness, and she's not sifted, nice and neat. She has the ability to choose between darkness and light, and to experience both. To say otherwise is to say that Kairi isn't as human or as much of a person as anyone else, and that's just wrong.

Assuming there are no other responses in the interim, I'll BRB shortly to respond to the other Messages with an Edit.

The source material forbids nothing. As I keep pointing out, the sole source that says the Princesses of Heart possess no darkness at all is Ansem the Wise when he was blinded by vengeance and when he may have been putting the Princesses of Heart on a pedestal as he was dropping the Nobodies into a pit. All other sources just say that the Princesses of Heart have the purest hearts around, and Sora and Ven specifically say that anyone and everyone has the freedom to choose light or darkness, thereby explicitly proving Ansem the Wise wrong.

Paul

"Forever and eternal bound
And each the other's pain resound"-Weird Sisters
GARGOYLES:
CITY OF STONE, PART III

 

[Idreamaboutcats]

I was wrong, THIS is the last time I respond to this guy's thread, and the only thing I have to say is:



Well, whatever, no skin off my nose and I really don't care. As for everyone else, let's go back to the Kairi thread, and should we also set up a Sora thread?

 

[astertide]

Though, keep in mind that your quote can be applied to the Princesses of Heart as well. Saying that it's impossible for Princesses of Heart to feel darkness and that they don't have the same range of emotions that replicas do is calling *Princesses of Heart* 'it's.

"Darkness" is not a feeling. It's a force. Emotions that are negative are "darker", yes, but Princesses of Heart can feel them just like any other person.

Ven wasn't literally pure light. That's proven when he's compared to the guardians of light such as Riku or Terra a number of times.

Ventus is pure light. That's why, instead of dying when the X-Blade is destroyed, he falls asleep.

And Kairi most likely didn't become a Heartless not for the reason that a vengeance-blinded Ansem the Wise believed, that Kairi had no darkness whatsoever, but because, since 'the closer you get to the light, the greater your shadow' becomes, Kairi *already* possesses so much darkness that transfiguring into a Heartless would be a major step *down.*

... What? Same thing as above. Instead of falling to darkness, Kairi falls asleep. If Princesses of Heart aren't pure light, then what makes Princesses of Heart any more special than normal people? If Kairi isn't pure light, then how does she turn Sora back into a person? How does she keep him from fading away in the Final World?

A Nobody is only created if a Heartless is also created. And to create a Heartless, the heart has to be separated from its body and swallowed by darkness. The only exception to this rule is if you're talking about a heart of pure light. Look at the diagram below. (It's really basic and there's more to it, but that's essentially the gist of it.)

You have a point about Kairi making angry faces. But see my picture of Roxas and my picture of Sora. There's a difference between anger and hate.

Yeah, but you paused a video, or they could just be really expressive. These are animated characters: there's a chance they'll behave differently to real-life people. Animators can't always get it right 100% of the time.

So I'll return to my arguments that Kairi created the four Demon Tides in the KINGDOM HEARTS series, the Lich, and the two Demon Towers that you battle in the linear parts of KINGDOM HEARTS III.

The Demon Tide is just a kind of Heartless. If Kairi creates these Demon Tides, then there's no reason to say that she didn't create every single Heartless in the series. But that wouldn't make sense. Sure, her pure light could attract Heartless more, but she's probably not creating them.

Negative emotions aren't always darkness. I agree with this. But vengeance and hatred are. I'll get into that more shortly when I respond to the others.

The thing is, you have to look at it from different perspectives. Are emotions like vengeance and hatred inherently bad or evil? They're just... emotions. They're not good or bad, they're not dark or light, they're just... human.

And child Vanitas is human. Sora and Ven attempt to convince Vanitas of this himself.

No, they don't. Ven just says that he didn't ask for any of this to happen. Vanitas isn't human, biologically. At first he's some sort... weird... Heartless...? Then, when he time travels into the future, he's a heart in a Replica.

What is this possible 'broken promise' of Ephemer's? If you won't tell me, can someone else, please?

When the Player and Ephemer first meet, Ephemer promises to meet Player again in the Fountain Square, however he never turns up.

She has the ability to choose between darkness and light. To say otherwise is to say that Kairi isn't as human or as much of a person as anyone else, and that's, in your own words, 'insensitive.'

But Kairi, technically and biologically, IS less of a human than, say, Riku or Aqua. Humans naturally have darkness in their hearts. Kairi having no darkness is unnatural. She doesn't have darkness, she doesn't have the ability to choose what her heart is made of, whether she wields darkness or light. It's always light, she doesn't have a choice, but she's perfectly fine with that because being a Princess of Heart has its perks, like turning Heartless, or at least Heartless with sentience, back into people.

 

[astertide]

One of the leit-motifs of the entire KINGDOM HEARTS series is a person's individual identity and how you need to choose who to become rather than to just be who or what you were supposedly 'created' to be, and that you need to think for yourself and make your own decisions. If the Princesses of Heart were supposedly just born a particular way and didn't need to choose the light or the darkness, that would defy much of what KINGDOM HEARTS stands for.

But it wouldn't, because there are some things you are just born with. You can't choose your biological features. I can't choose or change who my parents are or what my biological race, sex or age is, because some things you're just born with. Xion was born a Replica, and still is a Replica. Nothing can change that fact. Roxas IS Sora's Nobody. Saying that he isn't would be lying. And Kairi is a Princess of Heart, and Princesses of Heart have no darkness in them.

Here's evidence that Kairi possesses darkness because she glares at Terra-Xehanort with undiluted hatred. The glare can be clearly seen as undeniable proof on a television screen that is large enough, but it doesn't appear as well in the picture below, so I'm calling this picture 'evidence' and not 'proof.'

They're synonyms. "Evidence" and "proof" give the same amount of impact. They both mean that it's undeniable and when you use those words, you're implying that everything the other person says to argue against you is wrong.

 

[Lacan Valeth]

Time to Ragnarok and roll! ~_^

Then I have a letter, or more than one letter, to write a friend. Oh, I forgot, I shouldn't attempt to be there for her because 'being there for a friend' equals 'being hopelessly optimistic that someone will just feel better and not caring about someone's pain' and 'caring about someone's pain' equals 'blind darkness.' /Sarcasm

Astertide:
Yes, I remember that Eraqus attempted to murder Ven. But he also, correctly, said after Terra defeated him that he'd just attempted to do something dark.

Vanitas doesn't agree with Sora and Ven, but since when can Vanitas' perspective be trusted any more than the revenge-blinded Ansem the Wise/DiZ/*Darkness* in *Zero?*

I'm fully aware that Ven knew what was at stake with Xehanort and the Kye-Blade, and I'm fully aware of what was at stake myself. That doesn't make it okay for Ven to request Aqua and Terra be the ones to murder him when he could have done so himself at any time before Vanitas reunited with him.

Ansem the Wise said the Princesses of Heart have no darkness, but as I keep addressing, Ansem's perspective cannot be trusted. No one else, Yen Sid or Xehanort or Mickey or Aqua, said that the Princesses of Heart have no darkness at all, just that they possess the purest hearts around. - And Aqua didn't perform the bequeathing ritual. Kairi's ability to wield a Keyblade might be the result of Ava resting in her heart.

We both love Kairi and we agree that she's not boring. It's good to know that.

Thank you for telling me how to do spoilers. I'll keep that in mind for the future, at least partially because a fan of Ahsoka Tano from STAR WARS Posted in one of my Threads and, if he or she is reading any more of my Threads, I may ask him or her if he or she can retrieve pictures where Ahsoka has facial expressions and/or body language similar to Kairi.

Thank you for correcting me about the XENOGEARS reference. So FINAL FANTASY VII/The Compilation Of FINAL FANTASY VII/FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE didn't steal its one-winged angel concepts from XENOGEARS. Blarg.

However, Kairi and Sora have their one angelic wings on the precise same shoulders as the female and male one-winged angel statues in XENOGEARS, and they're on the same sides of each other as the female and male one-winged angel statues are when performing One Heart. Additionally, though I haven't been able to tell whether Kairi and Sora assume the poses of the female and male one-winged angels during the One Heart one-winged angel dual tech itself - though I intend to find out sooner or later, perhaps even tonight if I can do so without damaging my ability to attempt to support my friend - they *do* do so when they return to The Final World in the ending to RE MIND before they reach the surface, hands, arms, and bodies, and all.

The one-winged angel dual tech is evidence that Kairi has darkness in her heart because the one-winged angel statues represent that people are imperfect and flawed and they thus need each other to fly. Kairi and Sora are *both* flawed and they need each other to fly.

I'll concede my argument about Xemnas, though. Yes, Kairi doesn't wield the darkness. But Kairi crystallizing isn't evidence that she doesn't possess darkness. Xehanort crystallized Ven when he set Ven's darkness free. That Kairi crystallized is *further* evidence that she possesses darkness. - Most of Roxas' powers are light-based because that's how he chooses to battle. It has nothing to do with Ven's pure heart. Who you are is determined by your choice, not by how you were born. - - And Xion and Sora in the bad ending to RE MIND's Secret Episode don't just turn to crystal. They give off light. That's different from what happened to Ven and Kairi.

I'm calling Xemnas 'Replica Xemnas' because of his replica body. - But while Xemnas was toying with Sora, Xion, and Roxas, he was *not* toying with Kairi. Additionally, I'll re-watch the scene later tonight or tomorrow to refresh my memory on whether or not Kairi closed her eyes or just blinked.

I could care less what a *Wiki* says. Wikis can very often be inaccurate.

Darkness is a feeling. Darkness is specifically equated with feelings many times throughout all of KINGDOM HEARTS.

See above and my other Posts for evidence that Ven possesses darkness. He falls asleep when he obliterates the Kye-Blade because he broke his heart.

Your diagram is wrong. Ven fell asleep because the Kye-Blade was fashioned partially from his heart, so wrecking it wrecked his heart. It had nothing to do with Ventus possessing darkness *or* light.

Square ENiX specifically said it was going to start paying attention to the small details of facial expressions and body language when it moved to the PlayStation Three, and Nomura spent a *lot* longer developing KINGDOM HEARTS III than he did developing KINGDOM HEARTS II. He was almost certainly taking the time to get the animations correct. And even if he wasn't, do you honestly believe *this many* animations could be wrong?

Then why did the Demon Tides all show up in places specifically connected to Sora, and act in ways specifically connected to Sora? There's *no way* whatsoever that can be coincidence.

Vengeance and hatred are horrible. They don't lead you anywhere, just to a vortex of further vengeance and hatred. The world would be better off today if it *hadn't* gotten where it is partially because of vengeance and hatred. Give me *one* example of something good in reality that has resulted from vengeance or hatred. Vengeance and hatred are inherently darkness.

And here's Ven's and Sora's lines.

"But I didn't-"-Sora
"But I didn't ask for this. To be sifted, nice and neat. Not just light. Not just darkness. We should be free to choose."-Ventus/Ven

So Ven does say that he didn't want to be sifted and that everyone is free to choose.

Nor does it matter what Vanitas is, biologically or otherwise. What you are, biologically or otherwise, has nothing whatsoever to do with your free will and who you are. And even if it did - which it doesn't - *Xehanort's Heartless/Ansem* was a Heartless, yet he explicitly said that at first he wanted to defy his destiny but he submitted to it and followed the darkness because his colleagues betrayed him. And even then Xehanort's Heartless/Ansem knew his darkness didn't compare to Riku and Sora and that his praises of darkness were empty bluffs. Furthermore, *Riku Replica* and *Xion* are replicas, as Vanitas is in KINGDOM HEARTS III and KINGDOM HEARTS III: RE MIND. Are you saying they didn't possess the ability to choose to live their own lives as they wanted to live them?

How does Ava talk and act about Ephemer's broken promise to the Player Character, and did Ephemer truly break it?

*Kairi doesn't have free will?*

Are you serious?

First, even if she *wasn't* a natural born human and person, it wouldn't matter. See above about how how you're created, ethereally or biologically, has no effect on your free will or on who you are, and about Xehanort's Heartless/Ansem, Riku Replica, and Xion. But Kairi *was* a natural born human - so far as we know. And whether she was or wasn't, even if *she* was fine with that - which there's no evidence whatsoever that she is - *Sora* and *Riku* sure as heck wouldn't be, given much of what they've come to stand for and what they know that people like Riku Replica, Lea/Axel, Roxas, Namine, and Xion have been through because Xehanort and Xemnas and others treated them as if they didn't have the ability to choose who to be.

You can't choose your biological features, that's true, but it's also true that your biological features and parents have nothing whatsoever to do with your personality or free will. Kairi's ethereal and biological origins have no say in who she is or her choices.

I recommend that you use common sense about dictionary definitions. You know full well what context I was using 'evidence' and 'proof' in, and that countless people in reality use the word 'evidence' to refer to something that isn't proof. Ask most court officials or detectives about that.

Kokoko253:
This is not a fact. Ansem the Wise's vengeance-blinded Ansem Secret Reports do not equal fact, and no one else says the Princesses of Heart have no darkness at all.

Nor, for that matter, is Ven pure light. Among other matters, Ven requests Aqua and Terra to murder him unnecessarily, and Xehanort specifically says that he set the darkness inside Ven free when he turned him into crystal.

Launchpad:
I'm not arguing the Princesses of Hearts' anger equals darkness. See my argument about the difference between Roxas' anger and Sora's anger.

Onto the other Thread where I've gotten a response.


Paul

"She's not a puppet! She's Xion!"-Roxas
KINGDOM HEARTS: THREE HUNDRED FIFTY-EIGHT DAYS OVER TWO

***

Here's a very good quote - and one of my all-time favorite quotes in my entire life that does this - that shows how love, and protective love, can lead to darkness.

It's from NEON GENESIS EVANGELION Manga Volume Fourteen.

I'm arguing that, due to love, and protective love, Kairi is experiencing darkness in lesser ways - though, given the gigantic Demon Tide and the Lich, it's *very* doubtful that Kairi *is* experiencing darkness in lesser ways, at least during the periods of time when Kairi created that Demon Tide and the Lich - than in the following quote.

Thank you *very much,* once more, Astertide, for telling me how to mark spoilers. I'm about to do so.

*Warning for Spoilers for the NEON GENESIS EVANGELION Manga since I might not get the Spoiler Tags correct the first time, if at all.*

~~~

Spoiler Show

'Someone... Someone... ...come... ...to my side. Someone... ...please... ...understand me. Someone... ...please... ...love me.'-Shinji Ikari
"Did anyone... ...ever... ...love you?"-Rei Ayanami
'I don't know. The one who loved me... ...went away.'-Shinji Ikari
"Did you ever love someone?"-Rei Ayanami
'I don't know. I mean... ...love is pointless. All the people... ...I ever liked... ...went away.'-Shinji Ikari
'This world is full of sadness. Emptiness... ...surrounds people. Loneliness... ...buries their hearts.'-Rei Ayanami
'I couldn't protect anyone. They all died. And it's my fault.'-Shinji Ikari
'Shinji... Surely you... ...understand how I feel. I will erase everything. This world of sadness... This world filled with despair... It will become one... so no one suffers anymore.'-Gendo Ikari
'So no one suffers... So no one is sad... ...I will end everything. Loving... Being loved... Receiving... Losing... So I don't have to think of anything... Everything should end... ...so no one is left in the world.'-Shinji Ikari
"Is that... ...your wish?"-Rei Ayanami
'Yes... ...that is what... ...I hope for.'-Shinji Ikari
"The beginning and the end... ...are the same place. Good. This is good. Let all pass... ...according to... ...God's will."-Human Instrumentality Committee Chairman Kiel Lorenz/SEELE Number One
NEON GENESIS EVANGELION Manga Volume 14:
Stage 91: WHERE LIGHT RETURNS and Stage 92: BIRTHDAY

~~~

*End Spoilers*

Paul

"Your shield is shattered! Your oaths poison those you would protect!"-Judge Magister Gabranth
FINAL FANTASY XII

 

[The_Servant_of_Evil]

Imma be real with you chief. I don't know why this is a debate. Kairi does not have darkness in her heart. It's not just Ansem who's said this, but Yensid, Mickey, Xehanort, Eraqus... And we've seen the effects of a pure heart in the games. To go and base a counter argument on what, when boiled down to the core of the argument, is a couple of expressions? I just can't agree with that.

 

[Cumguardian69]

Kairi doesn't posess darkness.remind is absolutely not proof of this. Kairi blasting ghrough Xemnas blades was baseless bullshit they threw to satiate the remaining Kairi fans after the shitshow that was KH3 vanilla - you'll notice if you watch the full cutscene that Xemnas entertains her feckless dance for just a moment longer before putting her in a thorny cage and gives her the succ alongside her totes dreamy boyfriend.

Kairi doesnt have darkness. She has bullshit hax powers that are literally never deployed. Know the difference.

 

[Lacan Valeth]

The_Servant_of_Evil:
Yen Sid, Mickey, Xehanort, and Eraqus haven't said that the Princesses of Heart have no darkness in their hearts. They just say that the Princesses of Heart are the purest hearts in the realm of light.

And characters' own characterization, for self-evident reasons, overrides what other people say about them unless they know the person with the expression and body language well. Mickey is a trustworthy source on whether the Princesses of Heart possess darkness, because he knows Kairi well; Flora, Fauna, and Merriweather are trustworthy sources on whether the Princesses of Heart possess darkness because they know Aurora well, but they and anyone else save Ansem the Wise who says that the Princesses of Heart have pure hearts just say that the Princesses of Heart possess the purest hearts there are in the realm of light.

Furthermore, Cinderella's Fairy Godmother, who knows Cinderella well herself, argues with Aqua about how 'the closer you get to the light, the greater your shadow becomes,' implying that Cinderella is capable of darkness and has it.

Nor would it matter if they were just two expressions, but they're more than two.

Sora's and Ven's words to Vanitas *confirm* that the Princesses of Heart have darkness. Sora and Ven *specifically say* that every heart in the realm of light has the freedom to choose light or darkness, or both.

Paul

"But I didn't ask for this. To be sifted, nice and neat. Not just light. Not just darkness. We should be free to choose."-Ventus/Ven
KINGDOM HEARTS III

 

[NoWay]

It’s literally established lore that you are questioning. I mean there’s a reason why everybody in here is disagreeing with you. It’s like saying “Roxas isn’t Sora’s nobody”.

 

[Lacan Valeth]

The_Servant_of_Evil:
Yen Sid, Mickey, Xehanort, and Eraqus haven't said that the Princesses of Heart have no darkness in their hearts. They just say that the Princesses of Heart are the purest hearts in the realm of light.

And characters' own characterization, for self-evident reasons, overrides what other people say about them unless they know the person with the expression and body language well. Mickey is a trustworthy source on whether the Princesses of Heart possess darkness, because he knows Kairi well; Flora, Fauna, and Merriweather are trustworthy sources on whether the Princesses of Heart possess darkness because they know Aurora well, but they and anyone else save Ansem the Wise who says that the Princesses of Heart have pure hearts just say that the Princesses of Heart possess the purest hearts there are in the realm of light.

Furthermore, Cinderella's Fairy Godmother, who knows Cinderella well herself, argues with Aqua about how 'the closer you get to the light, the greater your shadow becomes,' implying that Cinderella is capable of darkness and has it.

Nor would it matter if they were just two expressions, but they're more than two.

Sora's and Ven's words to Vanitas *confirm* that the Princesses of Heart have darkness. Sora and Ven *specifically say* that every heart in the realm of light has the freedom to choose light or darkness, or both.

Paul

NoWay:
It's not established lore. Can you please provide me one trustworthy source that establishes this as lore?

***

Since we're on the topic of royalty, ethereal or bloodline, does anyone else here, as I do, believe that the exchange between Sora and Xehanort at the end of KINGDOM HEARTS III about why Xehanort wants to reincarnate the realm of light and about why this is wrong?

This is also a good example of how caring for other people with light can lead to darkness. This is one of the reasons *Xehanort* fell to darkness, and *he,* undoubtedly, possesses darkness.

Spoiler Show

"You really *want* to become a martyr for your fool religion."-Sydney 'Losstarot' Bardorba
"Not religion, Sydney. Revolution. A fresh wind to blow away the disease of the land. For our realm is *sick.* It suppurates with profiteers! Fawning merchants licking the boots of the nobility! They do nothing and blame others for their failure; they steal men's dreams and twist them to nightmares... We must cleanse this corruption. There must be strong, unwavering justice. And there must be fear to enforce that justice."-Knight-Captain Romeo Guildenstern of the Crimson Blades
"It is a wretched rule that does not value human life."-Sydney 'Losstarot' Bardorba
"The world does not want a savior. These wretches leading lives of misery do not need salvation. The rotting branch must be pruned."-Knight-Captain Romeo Guildenstern of the Crimson Blades
"A tyrant always dies alone, Guildenstern. Surrounded by silver-tongued leeches, he is utterly alone. He sows sorrow and reaps death."-Sydney 'Losstarot' Bardorba
"You are a leader, too. Do you not dream of what could be?"-Knight-Captain Romeo Guildenstern of the Crimson Blades
"In my dreams, an evil tyrant's hands, which would choke the world. And he is the only one blind to his folly."-Sydney 'Losstarot' Bardorba
VAGRANT STORY

Paul

"But I didn't ask for this. To be sifted, nice and neat. Not just light. Not just darkness. We should be free to choose."-Ventus/Ven
KINGDOM HEARTS III

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

Likes cannot be removed by anybody except the person who put them there.

 

[NoWay]

NoWay:
It's not established lore. Can you please provide me one trustworthy source that establishes this as lore?

Paul

"Eh??"-Nanami
SUIKODEN II

You can go and watch literally all cutscenes that are giving us information about the 7 Hearts or pure lights in general.

 

[Lacan Valeth]

Oracle Spockanort:
Wonderful.

Thank you for telling me that.

NoWay:
As I've addressed many times, none of those scenes say, even once, that the Princesses of Heart possess no darkness at all. They aren't just not trustworthy sources, they're not sources in the first place.

Paul

"Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!"-Xehanort's Heartless/Ansem
KINGDOM HEARTS

 

[KeybladeLordSora]

"Kairi, a resident of Radiant Garden over which I had ruled, was one of the Seven Princesses that uphold the realm of light. With no darkness in her heart, Kairi produced no Heartless, and instead of vanishing, her body remained in the realm of light." - Secret Ansem Report 9, Kingdom Hearts II.

If this doesn't convince you, it'll convince me that you're a loon who treats their fanfic as fact.

Well, the mere fact that you don't even think that scenes from the games themselves are trustworthy sources is kinda already doing that.

 

[Lacan Valeth]

KeybladeLordSora:
This doesn't convince me. I've said a number of times that Ansem the Wise's Secret Reports aren't trustworthy, since they were written by someone blinded by revenge.

And I've been arguing repeatedly that the scenes from the Games are trustworthy sources. I'm arguing that the scenes from the Games *are* trustworthy, because characters' characterization is the most trustworthy source for how a person feels and thinks, as opposed by words spoken to or about them by one or more people who don't know them well.

I don't treat my Fanfiction as fact. I haven't said the slightest thing that conveys that.

How is saying that characterization is trustworthy and the words of people who don't know the characters who are displaying the characterization aren't trustworthy is 'being a loon who treats Fanfiction as fact?'

Paul

"Why can't you understand her feelings!?"-Fei Fong Wong
XENOGEARS

 

[astertide]

Paul,

How does Kairi turn Sora back into a person in KHI?
How does she keep him from fading away in KHIII?
And if Princesses of Heart have darkness in them, what makes them different from any other person?