A few months later, was KH3 a failure?

[SuperSaiyanSora]

Dissidia was killed outside of Japan because of huge amounts of Japanese exclusive content. I wanted to see Rinoa in KH, 14 years after the KHII tease. It's ultimately a sign that Kingdom Hearts will be a Disney only game series going forward.

Well, I wouldn't say it's an ultimate sign because Nomura and Yasue seem really shocked that people felt the loss of the FF characters in KH3. Which, they honestly shouldn't be, because even the staff apparently got mad at Nomura for not including them.

Also, the reason why Dissidia was killed outside of Japan is also due to the battle system and most thought it was going to be similar to the PSP version on steroids. Instead, it's 3v3 and pretty clunky, and also lacks a story like the previous entries did. It's not a bad game, but there was a lot to be desired. There's also the fact that it was lifted off from arcade systems, so to begin with, Dissidia wasn't even really meant for consoles. If they had developed it for the PS4 from the ground up, this would've been a completely different game, but they can still bounce back.

In BBS's case, it was basically the same reason they weren't in KH3. Even though they planned on including the young RG gang, they didn't want to distract from the main story and decided to leave them out. It wasn't like they weren't even considered to begin with.

Which at least shows that Nomura's consistent with his reasoning for these kinds of things. Not that I agree, but it does show that it hasn't happened the first time in KH3, if that's any consolation.

Because BbS sucks as a prologue in almost every way? Why don't we see the downfall of Hollow Bastion or the experiments or the first Heartless or the world's walls being broken in BbS? Why don't we see a callback to Triton learning about the Keywielders in Atlantica or Genie having heard of the Keyholes before in Agrabah or Xehanort's offscreen interaction with Maleficent where she apparently learned everything? I’ve never had the same expectations for the crappy side games as the main titles.

If I remember correctly, didn't the fall of Radiant Garden happen one year after BBS? If that's the case, then that would explain why we didn't see that happen. We sorta get a bit of the experiment stuff with Lea and Isa (which we now know ALSO ties into Subject X) for a couple seconds, but maybe a lot of this didn't kick into high gear until after Apprentice Xehanort. As for Triton, this honestly could've been something he witnessed WAY before BBS even occurred, it's also possible that the Age of Fairy Tales is royal knowledge that's passed down as well, as ruler and protector of the world. Genie is a cosmic being, so he could've come across that knowledge so many years ago as well.

I do wish that BBS covered more of this though, I personally would've wanted more insight into Mickey's training and even stuff like where Terra and Aqua originally came from. I think there were some rewrites that happened though, because in the Jump Festa 2008 trailer, it's almost completely different than the version we got. Ven saved Terra somehow, Master Xehanort was in Olympus Coliseum, Terra fought Dragon Maleficent, Terra and Master Xehanort facing off in the Great Maw apparently... And I like to think that a lot of what you were looking for would've been covered in BBS Vol. 2, but unfortunately I don't think we'll ever get that now.

 

[allenleonardo]

Funny you should mention that, because I decided to do some digging after reading this post (and because I have the spare time right now ), and what I found was quite interesting...

https://www.khinsider.com/forums/index.php?threads/whats-with-all-the-kh2-hate.93630/
https://www.khinsider.com/forums/index.php?threads/kh-vs-kh2.86529/
https://www.khinsider.com/forums/index.php?threads/do-you-like-kh-or-kh2.140437/ (this one should surprise you)
https://www.khinsider.com/forums/index.php?threads/the-most-annoying-things-about-kh2.97973/
https://www.khinsider.com/forums/index.php?threads/why-did-kh2-suck-to-everyone.165232/ (SUPER interesting, read this one...)
https://www.khinsider.com/forums/index.php?threads/the-good-improvements-of-kh2-and-the-bad.84810/

Okay, you get the point. But they ALL seem familiar, don't they? Switch out KH2 for KH3, and you'd have the EXACT same threads and reception you have now. So it just goes to show that this is the same song and dance. It doesn't mean that criticisms and opinions aren't valid, but I think that it's very telling that in 2019, KH2 is the golden standard... When it used to be seen as the weakest one.

Wow that really shows how it was seen on the forum.

Too easy, bad story (even plot holes), useless keyblade stats, awkward dialogue, useless worlds and disney worlds being filler, press x to win. And much more.

Of course those are also just subjective opinions but I think that really shows that any KH game can have the flaws that people see with KH3. (And no I am not saying you have to like it because of that)

So in the end it really just comes down to what you like, dislike and how the ratio is for that. But that still makes it far away from a failed game.

 

[Face My Fears]

Funny you should mention that, because I decided to do some digging after reading this post (and because I have the spare time right now ), and what I found was quite interesting...

https://www.khinsider.com/forums/index.php?threads/whats-with-all-the-kh2-hate.93630/
https://www.khinsider.com/forums/index.php?threads/kh-vs-kh2.86529/
https://www.khinsider.com/forums/index.php?threads/do-you-like-kh-or-kh2.140437/ (this one should surprise you)
https://www.khinsider.com/forums/index.php?threads/the-most-annoying-things-about-kh2.97973/
https://www.khinsider.com/forums/index.php?threads/why-did-kh2-suck-to-everyone.165232/ (SUPER interesting, read this one...)
https://www.khinsider.com/forums/index.php?threads/the-good-improvements-of-kh2-and-the-bad.84810/

Okay, you get the point. But they ALL seem familiar, don't they? Switch out KH2 for KH3, and you'd have the EXACT same threads and reception you have now. So it just goes to show that this is the same song and dance. It doesn't mean that criticisms and opinions aren't valid, but I think that it's very telling that in 2019, KH2 is the golden standard... When it used to be seen as the weakest one.

People hated the Drive Forms and thought the gameplay was lacking. They thought having Mickey save you was too cheap. Matter fact, people thought the game was way too easy. They felt the plot had terrible pacing. The voice acting wasn't up to par. The Disney worlds were irrelevant and basically hallways. The lack of proper screen-time for important characters. Lack of proper character development... They're all similar. If you were to switch out Reaction Commands for Attraction Flow, Drive Forms for Formchanges and the Mickey Rescue mechanic with the Kupo Coin, it's the same thing. The only real difference here is the Shotlocks and Flowmotion (if you even use it).

Now, you could see all this and then say, "But that only makes it worse! KH2 was a PS2 title, this is a PS4 title with the culmination of everything up to now!" I never said the game was perfect lol. They were focused on delivering a full-product from beginning to end. They also had to switch engines, meaning they lost a year of development and a lot had to be redone. When you lose a year of progress, priorities in terms of adding things and overall direction can change a lot. If they can release the base game at a reasonably good quality and polish it later with technology we have now, then boom. Easier access to Final Mix content.

They could've taken more time to make KH3 a masterpiece, sure, but how much longer would that have taken? People already were complaining about delays and "it's never coming out lmao" memes, look what happened when the date was moved to 2019. It's only in hindsight that people wanted there to be more time, but hindsight is also 20/20. In the end though, this is something that happens every time, because BBS got it too. It's like how some FF fans feel the franchise died after FFX, but then you look back and see that people hated on FFVIII, FFIX and FFX the same way. Impressions change over time. It is what it is, and while it'd be nice to get a masterpiece outright, a growing love for something is fine too.

You are a gentleman and scholar for getting the receipts on this situation!

Trying to put down and minimize the characters isn’t going to make the criticism go away, if that’s what you were hoping. I hope Nomura will still be getting raked over the coals for the decision for years to come!

I'm not putting them down. I was just asking a question because I don't see the connection between the Final Fantasy characters and the main plot. I didn't say that they're worthless to Kingdom Hearts, I'm just stating the facts - Final Fantasy characters have nothing to do with the main plot, at all. If the argument was whether Final Fantasy characters are essential for a Kingdom Hearts game, my response would be different. I think some other Square property SHOULD appear at least once per KH game. BBS did it with Zack, KH3D did it with The World Ends With You characters, even reCoded had the Traverse Town group reappear. KH is all about the cameos and surprising you with who you will meet next, so KH3 SHOULD have had a Square cameo (I mean seeing the 104 building was a good enough cameo for me), but it wasn't a necessity for the story's plot -- seeing as Final Fantasy characters never had any relevance to the main plot.

Let me ask you this, if Final Fantasy characters other than Leon and the Hollow Bastion crew appeared in a Disney world, would that have sufficed? Like if Balthier and Fran were in The Caribbean?

 

[Zettaflare]

You are a gentleman and scholar for getting the receipts on this situation!

I'm not putting them down. I was just asking a question because I don't see the connection between the Final Fantasy characters and the main plot. I didn't say that they're worthless to Kingdom Hearts, I'm just stating the facts - Final Fantasy characters have nothing to do with the main plot, at all. If the argument was whether Final Fantasy characters are essential for a Kingdom Hearts game, my response would be different. I think some other Square property SHOULD appear at least once per KH game. BBS did it with Zack, KH3D did it with The World Ends With You characters, even reCoded had the Traverse Town group reappear. KH is all about the cameos and surprising you with who you will meet next, so KH3 SHOULD have had a Square cameo (I mean seeing the 104 building was a good enough cameo for me), but it wasn't a necessity for the story's plot -- seeing as Final Fantasy characters never had any relevance to the main plot.

Let me ask you this, if Final Fantasy characters other than Leon and the Hollow Bastion crew appeared in a Disney world, would that have sufficed? Like if Balthier and Fran were in The Caribbean?

That would have been amazing. I've wanted to see that happen outside of Olympus for years. We did kind of get that with the FF summons in Toy Box though

 

[Elysium]

I'm just stating the facts - Final Fantasy characters have nothing to do with the main plot, at all.

That isn’t a fact, that is your opinion only. Cut out the FF characters and KH1 is not the same, anymore than KH2 is the same without HPO or 3D would be the same without Yensid. In CoM, the FF characters are the ones used to help Sora better understand the memory worlds and at the end of that game they are shown in Sora’s heart along with the Destiny Islands characters (notice the Disney characters are not there because Squall and co. hold more significance to Sora than the various world inhabitants he meets). They find Ansem’s computer for SDG and while that doesn’t amount to much (like most of KH2 fails to amount to much between the prologue and ending), there is more direct connection to the original plot in their world while interacting with those characters than in any of the Disney worlds for a reason. They have as much relevance as Maleficent (post-KH1), Pete, Yensid, and Merlin do, even if they aren't on the level of characters like Sora, Riku, Mickey, D&G, etc. Nobody expected them to appear in the Keyblade Graveyard and help defeat Xehanort (even the other 6 GoLs stood on the sidelines while SDG defeated Xehanort). They should've appeared in Radiant Garden, and there's a multitude of other reasons beyond the FF characters that RG should've been in KH3, imo.

 

[CaptFancyPants]

I don't think the game was a failure, that's way too much of an extreme. The game disappointed me in a lot of ways and wasn't at the level that I thought it was going to be, but I would hardly write it off as being a horrible ending to the saga. That isn't to say it doesn't have many deserving criticisms either, there's a ton of stuff. Overall I don't think it represents the peak quality of what it could have been, but it's still a game with flaws that deserves both praise in criticism.
I think that gameplay-wise, the game is the best in the series. That's without a doubt for me. The floatiness is a bit problematic but I enjoyed the heck out of the combat. Too much of the plot was left until the very end and there should have been more unique plot in the Disney worlds, but I liked Xehanort's send-off and the way the new villains are being tied-in. Hardly a failure.

 

[Face My Fears]

That isn’t a fact, that is your opinion only. Cut out the FF characters and KH1 is not the same, anymore than KH2 is the same without HPO or 3D would be the same without Yensid. In CoM, the FF characters are the ones used to help Sora better understand the memory worlds and at the end of that game they are shown in Sora’s heart along with the Destiny Islands characters (notice the Disney characters are not there because Squall and co. hold more significance to Sora than the various world inhabitants he meets). They find Ansem’s computer for SDG and while that doesn’t amount to much (like most of KH2 fails to amount to much between the prologue and ending), there is more direct connection to the original plot in their world while interacting with those characters than in any of the Disney worlds for a reason. They have as much relevance as Maleficent (post-KH1), Pete, Yensid, and Merlin do, even if they aren't on the level of characters like Sora, Riku, Mickey, D&G, etc. Nobody expected them to appear in the Keyblade Graveyard and help defeat Xehanort (even the other 6 GoLs stood on the sidelines while SDG defeated Xehanort). They should've appeared in Radiant Garden, and there's a multitude of other reasons beyond the FF characters that RG should've been in KH3, imo.

"Not the same" and "important to the main story" are two different things. Of course KH1 would be different with no Final Fantasy characters, it wouldn't even be KH, it'd be some Disney game with some anime-style protagonist. I'm not disputing that Final Fantasy (or Square properties in general) are part of the defining aspects of the Kingdom Hearts series.

My point is that if you took Leon and the others out from KH1, Sora would meet Donald and Goofy. They would convince him to go with them and the plot continues. Yes, Mickey told Donald and Goofy to go find Leon in Traverse Town, but Leon could be replaced with anyone (like Merlin) or even no one. The letter could have been go to Traverse Town, the key will be there. In KH2, all the Hollow Bastion crew did was act as exposition to get you to a Disney world (Tron). But the fact that Space Paranoids part 2 is skippable in KH2 basically shows how important it is to the main plot.

Compare that to Twilight Town and meeting Hayner, Pence, and Olette. They are a part of the main story. They work with Mickey and Kairi. They help you find the data Twilight Town which guides you to The World That Never Was. They were important to Roxas. If you remove them, the plot actually changes. If you remove Leon and others (as seen in KH3), nothing really changes. Hypothetically remove them from KH1 and KH2, the main plot also does not change.

I'm not even going to go into whether Radiant Garden should have appeared or not.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

I can understand that players would miss them but I dont really see them as necessary. We dont really know if Ansem the Wise is their leader again, he just came back towards the end and helped Ienzo. Maybe I forgot but was it ever stated that he just became their leader again?

I was positive something was said in the Ultimania, but if there wasn't I'll sort of take it back by saying how it appears everyone went back to their old jobs.

Also you could ask the same about the committee too. Who gives them the right to decide who does what in the city? Are they suddenly the new leaders?

Someone needed to take charge in the absence of Ansem the Wise. And they clearly have some authority as they ran the Restoration Committee and had Cid create the town's new defense system and were using the castle and computer room.

Would it have made it better that Ienzo told them that he talked to Leon and others and informed them about it and have Sora asked how they are doing? Would that talk be enough?

It's better than pretending they don't exist. Even Seifer gets a reason for his, Fuu and Rai's absence from a random NPC's dialogue. Which is still better than how Leon was treated. Cloud and Auron were also mentioned in cutscene by the Olympus narrator despite them both having no relevance to Olympus' plot in KH3.

Maybe they owned stuff there and simply could come back and conducted their research in secret. The only ones that went to radiant Garden were Riku and Mickey who had barely anything to do with them.

Like Tartarus' longer explanation, Mickey has actually known Leon for far longer than Sora has and is good friends with him.

And Riku having no relationship with Leon would actuality give more reason for why the two should have finally met.

Sora himself might have had a deep bond with them but he also had that with others. He knows that they should be save since the world is in no danger, and since he has quite some stuff on his mind it makes it not that strange to me that he never asked about them.

And SDG immediately distrusted Ienzo after him saying he was part of Organizaton XIII. It's out of character for Sora not to believe that Radiant Garden might be under attack again and his dialogue should have reflected that by yelling about Leon.

Well, I wouldn't say it's an ultimate sign because Nomura and Yasue seem really shocked that people felt the loss of the FF characters in KH3. Which, they honestly shouldn't be, because even the staff apparently got mad at Nomura for not including them.

They were also shocked when fans complained about the their absence in BBS. So they've known since then that fans want these characters.

I'm not putting them down. I was just asking a question because I don't see the connection between the Final Fantasy characters and the main plot. I didn't say that they're worthless to Kingdom Hearts, I'm just stating the facts - Final Fantasy characters have nothing to do with the main plot, at all.

And neither does 80% of Kingdom Hearts' irrelevant-purely-there-for-fan-service Disney worlds. They have absolutely nothing to do with the main plot and yet here they are. As previously stated, Leon and the Restoration Committee DO bring something to the main plot, unlike nearly all the Disney cast.

Let me ask you this, if Final Fantasy characters other than Leon and the Hollow Bastion crew appeared in a Disney world, would that have sufficed? Like if Balthier and Fran were in The Caribbean?

Fans would have praised their inclusion. But it wouldn't have sufficed, as fans would still be angry over Leon's absence and use Balthier and Fran's inclusion to argue why the guy the majority of fans have been waiting to see again for 13 years was absent.

And this isn't case of you can't please the fans, as introducing a new FF character to a Disney world for funsies isn't the same thing as bringing back recurring characters for the finale so their world's plot can be truly finished.

"Not the same" and "important to the main story" are two different things. Of course KH1 would be different with no Final Fantasy characters, it wouldn't even be KH, it'd be some Disney game with some anime-style protagonist. I'm not disputing that Final Fantasy (or Square properties in general) are part of the defining aspects of the Kingdom Hearts series.

My point is that if you took Leon and the others out from KH1, Sora would meet Donald and Goofy. They would convince him to go with them and the plot continues. Yes, Mickey told Donald and Goofy to go find Leon in Traverse Town, but Leon could be replaced with anyone (like Merlin) or even no one. The letter could have been go to Traverse Town, the key will be there. In KH2, all the Hollow Bastion crew did was act as exposition to get you to a Disney world (Tron).

By your own logic, no character has any bearing to the story as any character can be replaced with any other character or removed. Goofy and Donald could be replaced with Clarabelle and Daisy. Chip, Dale, Pluto, Minnie, and Jiminy are gone. Yen Sid is now a dumpster.


These characters help make Kingdom Hearts what it is, and Leon and the Restoration Committee are no different.

But the fact that Space Paranoids part 2 is skippable in KH2 basically shows how important it is to the main plot.

Wait, what?

Compare that to Twilight Town and meeting Hayner, Pence, and Olette. They are a part of the main story. They work with Mickey and Kairi. They help you find the data Twilight Town which guides you to The World That Never Was. They were important to Roxas. If you remove them, the plot actually changes. If you remove Leon and others (as seen in KH3), nothing really changes. Hypothetically remove them from KH1 and KH2, the main plot also does not change.

I went a little about this above but my point still stands.

And Leon and crew are important to Sora.

Under your opinion, you feel that Leon and the others have no bearing to the main story, but to many, many other fans they do consider Leon and crew and the things they did to have just as much relevancy to the main plot as HPO, and their absence in KH3 doesn't prove they don't. All it shows is Nomura doesn't know how to manage his own story.

 

[Face My Fears]

I was positive something was said in the Ultimania, but if there wasn't I'll sort of take it back by saying how it appears everyone went back to their old jobs.

Someone needed to take charge in the absence of Ansem the Wise. And they clearly have some authority as they ran the Restoration Committee and had Cid create the town's new defense system and were using the castle and computer room.

It's better than pretending they don't exist. Even Seifer gets a reason for his, Fuu and Rai's absence from a random NPC's dialogue. Which is still better than how Leon was treated. Cloud and Auron were also mentioned in cutscene by the Olympus narrator despite them both having no relevance to Olympus' plot in KH3.

Like Tartarus' longer explanation, Mickey has actually known Leon for far longer than Sora has and is good friends with him.

And Riku having no relationship with Leon would actuality give more reason for why the two should have finally met.

And SDG immediately distrusted Ienzo after him saying he was part of Organizaton XIII. It's out of character for Sora not to believe that Radiant Garden might be under attack again and his dialogue should have reflected that by yelling about Leon.

They were also shocked when fans complained about the their absence in BBS. So they've known since then that fans want these characters.


And neither does 80% of Kingdom Hearts' irrelevant-purely-there-for-fan-service Disney worlds. They have absolutely nothing to do with the main plot and yet here they are. As previously stated, Leon and the Restoration Committee DO bring something to the main plot, unlike nearly all the Disney cast.


Fans would have praised their inclusion. But it wouldn't have sufficed, as fans would still be angry over Leon's absence and use Balthier and Fran's inclusion to argue why the guy the majority of fans have been waiting to see again for 13 years was absent.

And this isn't case of you can't please the fans, as introducing a new FF character to a Disney world for funsies isn't the same thing as bringing back recurring characters for the finale so their world's plot can be truly finished.

By your own logic, no character has any bearing to the story as any character can be replaced with any other character or removed. Goofy and Donald could be replaced with Clarabelle and Daisy. Chip, Dale, Pluto, Minnie, and Jiminy are gone. Yen Sid is now a dumpster.


These characters help make Kingdom Hearts what it is, and Leon and the Restoration Committee are no different.

Wait, what?

I went a little about this above but my point still stands.

And Leon and crew are important to Sora.

Under your opinion, you feel that Leon and the others have no bearing to the main story, but to many, many other fans they do consider Leon and crew and the things they did to have just as much relevancy to the main plot as HPO, and their absence in KH3 doesn't prove they don't. All it shows is Nomura doesn't know how to manage his own story.

Comparing the Disney worlds to Final Fantasy characters being included is pointless. The worlds are there because Kingdom Hearts is about travelling to Disney worlds. It was never a 50/50 Disney/Final Fantasy deal.

Auron and Cloud were relevant to Olympus' overall plot. Hades has been planning this take over for years. He used them to achieve it, but it failed.

I didn't even know fans were upset at their absence in KHBbS. Honestly, when I was playing it I didn't even notice (or even think about the fact that Leon and the others originated in Radiant Garden). I considered Zack the obligatory Final Fantasy cameo and that sufficed for me.

My logic wasn't that you can replace anyone with anything and it'll be OK. My point was that if the scenes and information you get from Leon and the others were removed completely, the story would continue and not be affected at all. If you removed what Leon does in KH1, like if it never happens, the story continues just fine. Sora will eventually bump into Donald and Goofy at Traverse Town and the adventure begins. If you remove all the FF characters' from KH2, the story continues just fine. If you remove the Disney worlds in KH, there is no game. Even though the Disney worlds are filler, they are more important than the Final Fantasy characters ever were.

If I remember correctly, you need to clear all the other worlds' second visit to unlock Space Paranoids' second visit in Hollow Bastion. If that's correct, you can skip Pride Lands (and I think Agrabah or Halloween Town), and thereby skip Space Paranoids. I'm not 100% sure on this because I never skip any worlds, but I believe it can be done.

Fans "considering" the FF characters as crucial and relevant to the main plot is different from the truth of the matter. The main plot of KH2 is Sora's quest to find Riku and King Mickey, and to stop the mysterious Organization XIII that are using the heartless to create another Kingdom Hearts. KH2's main plot is not restore Hollow Bastion. Therefore, Leon and the Hollow Bastion Restoration Committee are NOT important to the main plot and contribute barely anything to it.

 

[SuperSaiyanSora]

Wow that really shows how it was seen on the forum.

Too easy, bad story (even plot holes), useless keyblade stats, awkward dialogue, useless worlds and disney worlds being filler, press x to win. And much more.

Of course those are also just subjective opinions but I think that really shows that any KH game can have the flaws that people see with KH3. (And no I am not saying you have to like it because of that)

So in the end it really just comes down to what you like, dislike and how the ratio is for that. But that still makes it far away from a failed game.

Exactly! Like, reading through all of those threads... People are shitting on KH2 like it was a straight abomination and the series is ruined, even KH2FM+ kinda got a bit of hate as well. Fast forward to today, and KH2FM+ is seen as the holy grail. What changed? And some of these threads are from 2011-2012, so DDD was just on the horizon and wouldn't have changed much. The only thing that changed would be the fact that they finally brought the Final Mixes here as ReMIXes. Union X, Back Cover and BBS 0.2 couldn't have changed the perception of KH2 that much, if at all, so... It's always time.

That doesn't give it an excuse, but it does show that this isn't something new. If this had been the first go-around with KH3, then I would've just taken the L and hope they bring their A-game next time (even though I personally love it). But if people even felt this way about the "best game in the series", then what does that show you? Context. That's why I've defended KH3 from the beginning, because I've seen how this plays out before. People are allowed to be disappointed and not like something, but "absence makes the heart grow fonder", after all.

You are a gentleman and scholar for getting the receipts on this situation!

I had time, lemme tell you LOL. And that was just on this website. It's funny because I didn't post links with the intent to say "See? Y'all some motherfucking liars man!", but instead to show that initial reactions and letting something simmer can have drastic changes in perspective. It's not to dismiss people's complaints and grievances with the game, but more so to show that this has always been par the course for Kingdom Hearts, for better or worse. Of course, that doesn't give it a pass, BUT it's not like KH3 is some fall from grace either. It's just... Standard KH. Whether that's a good or a bad thing though is, well... That's up to the individual player, I suppose.

Look at the combat system, for example. Literally one of the biggest complaints for KH2 besides the plot pacing is "Press triangle to win" and "isn't as good as KH1". Now we have, "Attraction Flows are annoying" and "Why do we have floaty combat? Who's bright idea was this??" KH2 had the exact same complaints about difficulty too, "this game is too easy unless you play on Critical mode". It is what it is lmao.

 

[Elysium]

All I can do is speak for myself: My opinion of KH2 never changed. It never was and never will be the holy grail of KH for me. It’s just as likely that the explanation for the shift in majority opinion on fan sites is that many people who hated KH2 drifted away from the series over the past 13 years while the people who liked it stuck around for KH3.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

Auron and Cloud were relevant to Olympus' overall plot. Hades has been planning this take over for years. He used them to achieve it, but it failed.

They did have relevancy...to the past visits, and unlike Leon they both have canon reasons for not appearing (Cloud is wherever, Auron is back to being dead.) If the narration never mentioned or showed the people Hades used in the past (and it's super easy to cut and reword what's said), it wouldn't have affected Olympus' story in KH3.

But whether they are or not, KH3 still has the issue of being fine mentioning past FF characters EXCEPT for Leon and the Restoration Committee. It's a sad day when Seifer is considered more relevant to KH than Leon.

I didn't even know fans were upset at their absence in KHBbS. Honestly, when I was playing it I didn't even notice (or even think about the fact that Leon and the others originated in Radiant Garden). I considered Zack the obligatory Final Fantasy cameo and that sufficed for me.

It doesn't get mentioned much these days since people will tend to focus on whatever's recent, but I remember clearly how loud fans were back in the day. lol

I can't remember if it was from the BBS Ultimania or a regular interview but Tai Yasue (and possibly also Nomura) mentioned how surprised he was that fans were demanding the FF crew. That's part in why so many are pissed. They've known for years and the fans have always been very vocal about FF, yet go shocked Pikachu face when fans complain about them not using FF again.

If I remember correctly, you need to clear all the other worlds' second visit to unlock Space Paranoids' second visit in Hollow Bastion. If that's correct, you can skip Pride Lands (and I think Agrabah or Halloween Town), and thereby skip Space Paranoids. I'm not 100% sure on this because I never skip any worlds, but I believe it can be done.

Huh. Learn something new everyday I guess. I've never skipped worlds save for Atlantica.

 

[Elysium]

My point is that if you took Leon and the others out from KH1, Sora would meet Donald and Goofy. They would convince him to go with them and the plot continues.

Perhaps that could have happened in an AU scenario. The fact of the matter is it didn't and they were included in the story of that game. Sora learns about how worlds fall, the Keyblade, Ansem, the Ansem Report, the Heartless, Keyholes, Gummis, the backstory of Hollow Bastion, even who Maleficent is all from Squall and the rest. They are the first people outside of his home world that he meets. Whenever he needs to discuss plot revelations (like the Keyhole being locked in Wonderland, Riku being taken over by Ansem SOD) or move on from point to point, he turns to Leon, Aerith, Cid, and Yuffie for advice or assistance. They operate as the character's home base for two of the main titles in this trilogy. There is absolutely no legitimate reason for their absence in KH3.

 

[Face My Fears]

They did have relevancy...to the past visits, and unlike Leon they both have canon reasons for not appearing (Cloud is wherever, Auron is back to being dead.) If the narration never mentioned or showed the people Hades used in the past (and it's super easy to cut and reword what's said), it wouldn't have affected Olympus' story in KH3.

But whether they are or not, KH3 still has the issue of being fine mentioning past FF characters EXCEPT for Leon and the Restoration Committee. It's a sad day when Seifer is considered more relevant to KH than Leon.

Is there some reason that people hone in on Leon and the Hollow Bastion Restoration Committee? Do people think there is some active plot against those character specifically?

The narration in Olympus was obviously a reference to the film having the Muses singing the backstory, so it was nice to do something like that for one of the most visited worlds in KH history (which would obviously cause the world to have loads of backstory). If people are questioning why no Leon mention, they did mention Cloud who was part of the Hollow Bastion committee. I just think that it would not have been organic to just slip in "Leon, Aerith, Cid, and Yuffie are busy" during a Radiant Garden cutscene. It would have also probably angered the Final Fantasy fans even more than their understandable absence.

Perhaps that could have happened in an AU scenario. The fact of the matter is it didn't and they were included in the story of that game. Sora learns about how worlds fall, the Keyblade, Ansem, the Ansem Report, the Heartless, Keyholes, Gummis, the backstory of Hollow Bastion, even who Maleficent is all from Squall and the rest. They are the first people outside of his home world that he meets. Whenever he needs to discuss plot revelations (like the Keyhole being locked in Wonderland, Riku being taken over by Ansem SOD) or move on from point to point, he turns to Leon, Aerith, Cid, and Yuffie for advice or assistance. They operate as the character's home base for two of the main titles in this trilogy. There is absolutely no legitimate reason for their absence in KH3.

Yes, the Final Fantasy characters are part of the story of Kingdom Hearts. Just like the "filler" Disney worlds are too. The Final Fantasy characters are NOT part of the main story. If they were, they would have joined Sora at Hollow Bastion to save their home world from Maleficent -- the person they seem to know all about and blame for the downfall of their home. Instead they show up after Sora and *gasp* A FILLER DISNEY CHARACTER THE BEAST *gasp* defeat Maleficent. The fact that Square consciously CHOSE The Beast to be the party member in Hollow Bastion and not Leon (the guy who is trying to save his home world -- Hollow Bastion) basically confirms how little the Final Fantasy characters are part of the main story. The fact of the matter is that the Final Fantasy characters are filler and not part of the main story -- a legitimate reason to be absent from KH3.

If Leon and the others did nothing before, even when they HAD the opportunity to help Sora defeat Maleficent and save Hollow Bastion in KH1 (seemingly what Leon and the others wanted to do), why should screentime be wasted on them against a villain and evil plot they don't even know exists (Master Xehanort/Real Organization/Time Travel)! Leon was going off of rumoured knowledge/information regarding "Ansem" (he was so out of the main story loop, he didn't even know that was Xehanort). He wouldn't even serve as a useful exposition tool because his information would be crap compared to Yen Sid or Ienzo.

 

[Elysium]

The Final Fantasy characters are NOT part of the main story.

You can repeat it in all caps if you want, that does not make it a truth. Giving Sora this information makes them a part of the main story. You said before that you consider HPO to be a part of the main story because they're friends with Roxas and Pence operates the computer in the mansion. Leon and co. do so much more than they did or any of the Disney characters in their various worlds do for that matter (since you're trying to equate the two). And it’s not as if according to your logic that SDG couldn’t have found a way into the alternate Twilight Town all on their own without any help from anybody.

 

[Face My Fears]

You can repeat it in all caps if you want, that does not make it a truth. Giving Sora this information makes them a part of the main story. You said before that you consider HPO to be a part of the main story because they're friends with Roxas and Pence operates the computer in the mansion. Leon and co. do so much more than they did or any of the Disney characters in their various worlds do for that matter (since you're trying to equate the two). And it’s not as if according to your logic that SDG couldn’t have found a way into the alternate Twilight Town all on their own without any help from anybody.

Main story of KH1: Sora wants to find Riku and Kairi. He finds out that they are at Hollow Bastion (the home world of Leon and gang, the world that they so desperately want to save). Sora and Disney characters defeat Maleficent at Hollow Bastion ("the main villain" and cause for the darkness in Leon and gang's mind). Leon and gang show up after the fact and make useless speech. Leon and gang don't even care to help Sora take on the REAL cause of the darkness. Leon and gang don't even care to join Sora to investigate this "evil Ansem", who would be contrary to the "good Ansem" they should have known in Radiant Garden. Leon and gang rather spend time in the library reading books instead of helping their good friend Sora fight the main villain of the game "evil Ansem". Does that sound like a truth? If so, then Leon and gang were not part of the main story in KH1.

Main story of KH2: Sora wants to find Riku and King Mickey. Yen Sid informs him of the new threat in Nobodies and Organization XIII (whose 13th member is Sora's nobody). After searching several Disney worlds, we return to Hollow Bastion because we ran out of Disney worlds to clear. Mickey is there to give us info to get us to the other half of the game. Xemnas reveals his evil plan. Sora visits Disney worlds again, then goes to Twilight Town. While in Twilight Town, Hayner, Pence, and Olette have seen Kairi and Mickey. Even without meeting main character Roxas -- Hayner, Pence, and Olette -- there is a special bond that makes them to want to help Sora. They lead Sora to the old mansion, which gives him access to the data world and the door to The World That Never Was so that Sora can defeat Organization XIII. Leon and gang are even less prevalent in KH2's main story. They were nothing more than fan service during the "Goofy's dead" segment. They contributed as much as Stitch (FILLER DISNEY CHARACTER) did to the 1000 Heartless Battle.

If you want to compare HPO to Leon and gang and their relevance to the main plot:
- HPO had more lines in KH2 than Leon and gang had in KH1 and KH2 combined.
- HPO had more screentime and lines than Terra (main character) in KH3.
- HPO were that relevant to the main story that they had to be included in KH3. Leon and gang were nowhere to be seen and the plot went along just fine. HPO (untrained kids with no special powers) even confronted Ansem Seeker of Darkness to help the real Ansem The Wise! Leon and gang had their chance in KH1 to confront Maleficent and Ansem Seeker of Darkness (the people that ruined their home world) and they skipped on that to swing a sword endlessly in a cave and to read books in the library!

 

[Elysium]

Leon and gang don't even care to join Sora to investigate this "evil Ansem", who would be contrary to the "good Ansem" they should have known in Radiant Garden.

They do exactly that. Their comments in the library are entirely about Ansem turning out to be evil. Aerith gives you around 5 Ansem Reports to learn more about him. Then in KH2, they find Ansem’s computer specifically for the purpose of helping Sora to research about him.

- HPO had more lines in KH2 than Leon and gang had in KH1 and KH2 combined.

I’m not going to go get a KH1 and KH2 script and count the lines just to prove something I already know is not the case. And Even / Demyx are the ones who rescue Ansem the Wise; that could've been done even with HPO taken out of the equation without much trouble.

HPO didn’t “have” to be in KH3 anymore than Arendelle or The Caribbean or Toy Box or Scrooge McDuck “had” to be in KH3. Nomura chose to include them. That’s an entirely different thing. Nomura’s poor judgment isn’t surprising; he’s better with one-off games than a series, imo. I don't underestimate his bitterness over XV in playing a part in the decision either.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

About FF characters.
It did come as a bit of a shock when on this very forum I've heard people taking the FF characters situation so seriously, and looking back I kinda reacted badly due to how disconnected from my own personal feelings it was.

I had no prior knowledge of FF when I first played KH1, so that was whatever. I played all first 10 chapters by the time KH II came around, and I've never felt any love for the FF chars in that game. If anything my knowledge of the original versions only worsen the take KH took.
And it speaks volumes that, after finishing KH III on my own, I had to watch a stream of the game elsewhere and read a random comment saying "So where are the FF characters?" to finally take notice that they weren't in.

I don't... really have a fluid answer because I think this debate goes to variosu places, so I'll do a list of points:

- I think in KH1 Leon and the gang were important as heck. The people who explained Keyblade and Keyholes and all that stuff, had ties to Hollow Bastion which was a pretty relevant spot, had the "our hearts will connect us again" moment (so important it's an unskippable cutscene lol), and in general are the HQ people Sora always comes back to when it's time to regroup and analyze the situation. That other characters could've done what Leon and the gang did, that they could've done even more and that OTHER important stuff happens without them doesn't really disprove any of this.
Tidus Wakka and Selphie are cameo fodder. Cloud too.

- In KH II the commitee is an in-between. They DO feel like they don't belong into the main conflict and that now that Nobodies and even crazier anime fights are involved they are out of their jurisdiction. And they are less present in main story conversation unless they involve what concerns them directly (Ansem and the town). Riku, Kairi, Roxas, the artificial Kingdom Hearts... none of that is tied to them.
Still that doesn't necessarily means they're at the lowest level of fodder. I think this is ultimately the weak point of this whole discussion, there's not just black and white to it.
Leon and co. are the secondary plot. Above Disney worlds' self-contained events, and below the whole Organization front of things.
One of the many changes I'd make to KH II was to unite their plotline to Maleficent and Pete's, perhaps having one last confrontation during the last visit to Hollow Bastion/Radiant Garden (basically inserting Maleficent in the MCP visit).
Seifer's gang is more fodder. Cloud, Tifa and Sephiroth are too, they are the "Disney story" in that world, a one and done thing with no relations to the rest of the game.

- This regards FF in the past. Now, does KH III still work without them?
I mean, yes? But that was amply demonstrated by previous KH games. You can have a main story with only main characters and Disney worlds and it works.
But that's the thing, this only proves, well, this. It only demonstrates that you CAN do things this way, not that you MUST.
Like, if this is about arguing that Final Fantasy makes Kingdom Hearts then sorry chief, that might just not be it. At the same time I also don't feel like standing proud for demonstrating Final Fantasy isn't necessary. Many things could be removed from the games without fundamentally breaking them or what they tell, doesn't mean it should happen.

So it goes like this for me regarding Final Fantasy rep:

KH1: important
KH II: B-plot
Onwards: not even present/a cameo in Coded

Right now with KH III we're in the third slot, but if some would like to go back to the second or even first tier of relevance then sure. As in, they're free to wish for it and it doesn't come off as weird or unjustified to me.
Not because Final Fantasy absolutely MAKES Kingdom Hearts, but simply because it was a component of previous games, so there are basis for its comeback.
Whether it's still possible to write them in major roles despite the crazy anime turns the series took, I feel like that's a personal judgement.
On one hand this is a new saga so maybe a fresh start, on the other Luxu ands the Foretellers still give me an "end of Naruto Shippuden" vibe, so it might be though.

Lexaeus: "And then there's Verum Rex. Who knows what that one will bring to the table."

Thanks, Lexaeus.
This whole thing feels like Kairi to me. Some want her to get all she can get, because they feel like she has potential and isn't superficial or a waste. Some think her time has passed and we need to move on. And others yet argue she was never important or good to begin with.
That doesn't mean that if you think Kairi is irrelevant then you also need to think the same for FF or vice versa: anyone will stan what they feel the most, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Face My Fears]

I’m not going to go get a KH1 and KH2 script and count the lines just to prove something I already know is not the case. And Even / Demyx are the ones who rescue Ansem the Wise; that could've been done even with HPO taken out of the equation without much trouble.

HPO didn’t “have” to be in KH3 anymore than Arendelle or The Caribbean or Toy Box or Scrooge McDuck “had” to be in KH3. Nomura chose to include them. That’s an entirely different thing. Nomura’s poor judgment isn’t surprising; he’s better with one-off games than a series, imo. I don't underestimate his bitterness over XV in playing a part in the decision either.

I didn't realize Even and Demyx were in Twilight Town and were the ones that took Ansem The Wise to the sewers.

Nothing had to be in KH3. KH3 could have been a blank disc! You're accusing Nomura of poor judgement and bitterness while conveniently evading the facts. If people pissed over the lack of the Final Fantasy characters in KH3 are using an almost 20 year old game as the basis to how "relevant" the characters are to the main story, then they should be able to face their fears and realize that maybe the Final Fantasy characters were never relevant to the main story in the first place?

I'm going to end this here because I feel like we'll just be going in circles and off topic:
Do I think that KH3 should have had Final Fantasy character cameos? Yes.
Do I think leaving out Leon and the others from Radiant Garden was a bad decision? Yes.
Do I think Leon and the others from Radiant Garden are relevant to the main story? No.
Do I think the absence of Leon and the others negatively affected KH3's main story? No.

How can you accuse Nomura of being bitter and actively NOT including them, when he went out of his way to include them here:

 

[Elysium]

You're accusing Nomura of poor judgement and bitterness while conveniently evading the facts.

Again, nothing you've said is a "fact." These are your opinions only. Of course KH1 is relevant to the end of this trilogy. Just because that's inconvenient to your argument doesn't make it any less the case.

- Do I think that KH3 should have had Final Fantasy character cameos? Yes.
- Do I think leaving out Leon and the others from Radiant Garden was a bad decision? Yes.
- Do I think Leon and the others from Radiant Garden are relevant to the main story? Not a great deal since KH1, no. Like DarkosOverlord said, and I agree, they get a B plot just like Maleficent does in KH2. They're a step above regular world characters though, the same way that Yensid and HPO are.
- Do I think the absence of Leon and the others negatively affected KH3's main story? Yes. Or, more importantly, the absence of Radiant Garden makes KH3's story less than it should’ve been.