Nayru's Love

XH's memories? You mean because Ansem SoD saw Kairi and that let's Xemnas resonate to see Xion occassionally as "Xion"?

I truly think you have an error in reasoning here, as KH does not manifest from Hearts connecting but from Hearts being fused/hoarded together.
Master Xehanort describes KH as an aggregate/conglomerate of Hearts in his Reports and also says that the Hearts "gathering in a single place" is what finally causes KH to manifest.
In Days Saix also speaks of it in that manner: "The hearts collected by our two Keyblade wielders, Roxas and Xion, have gathered together; and now, almighty Kingdom Hearts waxes large in the night sky."

Sure, when the hearts are crammed together into a single mass they are also "connected" in a way, but that is different than Hearts just touching and forming a bond like for example Sora and Ventus. Their hearts aren't a single mass, they're still independent from each other physically inside their own bodies, same goes for Riku, Kairi and all the others. The only difference is when Ven's heart seeks refuge inside Sora's at the end of BBS and Kairi's heart in KH 1. In these cases the hearts are truly physically together, but they still remain independent from each other, Sora's heart doesn't assimilate Ven's or Kairi's heart to destroy/suppress their individuality, they don't form a totally new heart out of both, it's just one heart inside another. Even Roxas' and Xion's new hearts are still independent inside Sora's. If they weren't, there wouldn't be a chance to save them and have them exist again.

Why would a new heart be created just because XH connects his heart with Young Xehanort's? The reason Young MX can time travel with his body is because XH already fulfilled the "cast away your body"-condition so Young Xehanort doesn't need to because he's also "a Xehanort" and therefore XH fulfilling the condition counts for all of them since they all have a seed of the same heart within them.
I think Nomura even said in the Ultimania that Young Xehanort was only borrowing the time travel powers and doesn't have them permanently besides functioning as a portal so the other Xehanort's could reach him.
One statement of Nomura regarding Xemnas and Ansem I found particulary interesting:


This almost sounds as if Xemnas and Ansem were "stored" somewhere entirely outside/beyond the timeline instead of in their own time periods. o_0
(Or I misread the meaning of the second part of the question after the comma).

I would certainly hope not, as then the whining about how they are "clones" or worse the same person would start again in the fandom.

That would be for sure the case, and I would guess that there would be also less character bashing and shipping wars in general when people would understand the series mythology better from the ground up. While all the main characters have their fair share of shipping-madness going on (seriously, all the "lack" of romance and more naughtly stuff that the canon has gets trumped twice or thrice by what the fandom cooks up in fanwork) the rabid Organisation XIII-fangirls are truly another league worse. Especially since with these character derailment (and frequently mispainting the Org as "good guys") is abundant.
I'm not generally against shipping and I have also no problem with same sex-pairings in general as long as all that remains in the fanon.

Ok, that one does confirm that just like Xigbar, Xemnas sometimes sees Ven, sometimes he sees Sora but he also sometimes sees Xion as "Xion" herself, that's intriguing.

Of course Xion desires her own identity, or should I rather say being her own person? As she already has an own identity. If she didn't she wouldn't be around anymore in some form and there's also this statement from Namin? in Days:

This pretty much drives home the point that Xion desires to be her own entity just like Roxas does.

There is definitely something more between Riku and Mickey that hasn't yet been explored, also since Nomura claimed in the Director's secret reports that Riku and Mickey share certain "similarities" and the darkness cannot truly affect them.

On this point we're on fundamentally different boats I fear, as seeing Heart connections as forming one heart would render the notion of Heart fusion (Ven and Vanitas, or MX and Terra, or even Sora and Ven at the end of BBS, Sora and Kairi in KH 1) unneccessary and redundant. Hearts become one heart when they fuse, but Hearts connecting I interpreted always more like something akin to this:

Spoiler Show

A network of interconnected Hearts, but each Heart is still itself. If we really go by the notion that individuality rests within the heart and developing an own identity and individuality eventually leads to the birth and formation of a heart, the "lanes" of the network of the connections would deliver the information, traits and partly influence that shapes the new heart, instead of having a big hive mind like the Borg collective.

Sora and Ventus have the same eyes and they also didn't become someone else or each other, they still retain their own individuality.
I see from where you're coming with Apprentice Xehanort though.

Yeah, but I am not afraid to admit that I'm doting a bit on the kid, lol.
I remember there being a sort of poll sometime ago where they published the estimated ratio between male/female fans in the fandom around 35%/75% percent or so.
It's also no secret I think that the majority of KH fans is female, but that doesn't bother me much since I do not care that much about gender or stereotypical gender roles.

In the secret Reports of Days Xemnas himself says that he sees Xion as Sora:


and Xigbar says:


In the Days Ultimania I found this bit:


Here, Nomura speaks about that Xigbar only sees Xion as Ven once, and not permanently, but I can't see anything regarding Xemnas.
I guess it might have been in one of the Famitsu interviews instead.

When considering the special case of Sora I guess she fits as a good example, but for the general procedure of beings starting to truly exist (and develop their own identity and heart through connection and perception by others) she might not go so well as example because people might just attribute all this to Sora's special heart and not to a function that is part of how this Universe in general works.

Well, Xemnas DID sample Sora's memories in the Unknown-fight in KH 1 FM just like Vexen sampled Riku's memories in CoM. So the premise for this can actually be reasonably assumed.
The difference in the initial results could be related to Xion's status as an imperfect Replica, or as Saix states:

This might be an indicator that by the time Vexen initially created Xion his procedure wasn't yet that good.

Now that makes more sense generalizing it like that, this would also probably indicate that a heart being fractured could actually be prevented if another heart's light is fast enough to react and offer its help immediately.

In which way would the heart function "differently" in a Nobody. I was more under the impression that if there are discrepancies in the capabilities of the hearts of Nobodies compared to the hearts of original persons, it has to do with the most often not fully matured hearts of the Nobodies who may all have a nurtured heart in different stages of development.
As for Xion, where was it said that she cannot wield a Keyblade (and Blades from the RoL are the most common as the glossary shows us, dark and heart Keyblades are excessively rare), she wielded Roxas' Keyblade (actually Sora's) for quite a while so her heart has definitely the wielding ability. There was no own Keyblade for her though and when not using Roxas' she was using a fabricated copy of that blade.

Wanting a series to evolve is all fine and dandy, but certainly not by throwing the entire mythology down and change parts that were there even since the first title.
More concepts can be introduced (actually happened in both DDD and BBS), but they should not completely invalidate established concepts.

I can understand that, lol, although just today we had really much to do, so I had less time lurking here.
A glance at my age might probably help with the imagining though, although I do realize that my avatar might throw people off a little. Is there even a sort of "identifcation guide" to recognize "typical KH fans" if they aren't cosplaying right now? *ggg*.

---

Yep, sounds reasonable, and isn't there also the saying that your eyes are the "windows to the soul" (in KH's case I would say "Heart" instead of Soul) and may hint of your nature and personality?

In III? Gosh, I don't even remember. I lost focus on it cause I started playing Lego LotR.


Whoops :x

Oh yeah, that's a reasonable course of action, *laughs*.

*slaps forehead*
Of course, Xion is practially a prime example not only for us, but also in-universe. People who actually see her as an own person (Roxas, Axel) get to see her black-haired girl-image (which seems also to be her own image of herself), Xemnas sees her as the end-product of his desires (a Sora-clone) and Saix who does not even consider her as a living being in her own right sees a hooded puppet. The only mismatching issue is Xigbar here, as we do not know what he sees Xion usually as and according to Nomura he only saw her once looking like Ventus.
What makes all this a bit iffy though is that Xion's appearance is said to be heavily influenced by the memories of Sora she absorbs and how people see her depends on their connection to Sora/Sora's memories. I don't know if this discrepancy does not make her more of a hindrance as example than an actual help. As the issue how others see her with the influence of Sora's misplaced memories, meaning her appearance, go practically against the stuff explained by Joshua and Ansem the Wise.

I'm a bit at a loss here honestly, in which way can the concept of nurturing a heart to form it be considered similar in nature to a Keyblade just switching owners? Sure, the Keyblade switched due to Sora connecting with Riku at that time, but it hasn't anything to do with forming a heart (both Sora's and Riku's hearts already were fully formed) or creating/developing an identity.

Ah, I see. Differences between "real" hearts and "data" hearts? I do not recall there ever even shown to be differences. It would be the same with Repliku's and Xion's "replica" hearts, they were called fake by some to devalue them and make it sound like their existences are worth less than "real" hearts, but Ansem the Wise's words in DDD, Sora's stance towards Repliku in CoM and Pinocchio as an actual puppet do actually rebuke that point.
I sometimes get the vibe that a lot of people don't see the bigger picture of the entire series at all, especially those always calling "cheap revivals" and "death must be permanent" factions despite we already getting a mass revival on near-universal scale at the end of the very first game.

More or less, lol. Some of the stuff I do here on work takes a while to be completed with automated procedures after I did my part, and that time I use sometimes to lurk here and occassionally post. Just now I had a longer period where I really had to concentrate on work-stuff.
Maybe that's the difference, lol, as I do not drink coffee ever. Even at breakfast I am like B.A. Baracus from the A-Team and drink milk.
Like a chain-reaction, huh?
More to read I see, lol, I'm going to indulge in those when I'm back home from work today.
As long as it's fun there should be no problem at all, and hey, fanboys exist as well. ^__^

Uh yeah, thank you. Developing these concepts further is somewhat of my speciality it seems. Haha, borderline-canon material, that sounds also somewhat intimidating, and also bears the danger of interpreting some possible still uncertain stuff as fact already. I agree this can result in very interesting results, although Nomura still has an additional power we don't have, lol: The power of trolling.

I actually made this post up from some of the notes I've made about the topic, especially since the point of how "valid" Roxas' own identity (and now possible grown heart) is for an own existence is brought up again and again.
As for the being relevant to other's perceptions, I was actually baffled when I realized that the stuff Joshua in Traverse and Ansem the Wise later at the Dream-DI talked about practically point to the same thing, as do Sora's stance on the Riku Replica, his speech to Roxas in DDD and Axel's "you're no puppet in my book" towards Xion. How someone perceives you, when he/she perceives you as an individual in your own right, is also a sort of connection and an "exposure to light" as Ansem puts it.
The way Ansem the Wise words it though suggests that this works as a "growth boost" for Hearts in general.
There is also the case of Ventus after his heart was nearly destroyed for the first time when MX created Vanitas. Sora's newborn heart saved it from fading completely, but Ven was still in a pitiful state, got pain seizures and fell comatose from Terra just asking (ok granted, he shot out a waterfall of them) some questions when he was first brought to Land of Departure.
In the BBS Ultimania Nomura described that as while Ventus had awakened and was "saved" in the sense that he could live, his heart was not yet fully formed again. With the information we got from DDD and seeing that Ven felt reasonably fine four years later when the actual BBS game starts it stands to reason that Ven's damaged heart was nurtured by Aqua, Terra and Eraqus taking care of and connecting with him, forming his heart back to a "healthy" state during those four years.

Yep, that's why I said it's probably the most difficult topic around, as it also tackles some of the deepest questions about some of the principal characters of the series.
When I realized how the connection of the stuff with Data-Sora in Coded fits in as "another puzzle piece" as you put it, it made me see the game Coded with different eyes in regards to if it's really so "unimportant" overall. Sure, for the plot this may be correct, but if all this comes reasonably together it is important for some core concept of how the universe of KH works.
True, but putting all this together in a way it does not come over as totally assuming interpretation is a challenge.

Uh yea, I have a job to attend to during the week after all. My boss would not approve if I can't concentrate for work or mess up due to lack of sleep because I was busy with too much analyzing in a fictional game series.
I have to keep the border between RL and fantasy realm up tightly, lol.
Now I have already two to read? o_0
You sure are fast...*ggg*

I get what you mean, I guess some of my posts could be converted into a full blown theory thread as well, I do not take the time though to formulate it out as a full theory.
True dat, this site has some of the best minds regarding the series.

Maybe that's the reason I don't transform them into theories of their own? My posts tend to be very detailed and filled with interpretations as well as snippets from the game scripts themselves and interviews supporting them.
Lol, I guess that can also seen as intimidating, yep. So I take it you read the new "monster" in the "apprentices"-thread already?
If so, what do you make of it? Too much own interpretation included or is it truly a sort of "evidence" I picked together?

If we can manage to get a full blown joint theory together I guess we could at least ask a Mod if it's good enough/fitting for editorial status.

That's a pretty good read I've to say, and while I incorporated things like believing and seeing actual people in my essay, I didn't actually call it the "will", despite it being at least a part of it.
It's almost bedtime here so in order to write a suffcient quality response to that I will wait till tomorrow when I had enough sleep.

It's certainly funny, instead of making a theory thread I just pick up a clue/incentive in an already running debate thread to whip out such stuff. *ggg*.

I haven't even taken the elements into consideration up to now, I was solely going from what the games and interviews tell us about the connection identity/individuality<=>Heart as a proof of life throughout the series, with memory being the main "fuel" of the whole process.
But of course any essay can still be refined with additional material. ^___^

Heh, yep, maybe there will be even a joint editorial at the very end for the main site.

Oh gosh, I think I just went overboard in the "Roles for the other apprentices"-thread. It turns out to be a sort of essay about identity/individuality and how it works in the KH Universe, lol.

i can agree with that. every time i have to play as desmond i'm like "stop it just let me go back in time and do the fun parts"

i totally get where they were going with that, but it was also a little iffy. idk all the gun mechanics felt awkward to me and the counterattacks definitely felt weird. maybe that was just me but everytime i pick up the game i feel like i have to relearn everything.

i can understand where you're coming from, for sure. it CAN get pretty repetitive in general.

the only problem i've had with ac3 (yet to beat it) is that the controls are a little too complex for my tastes. it's a lot to remember.

i really was only hit with taht feeling of monotony with the first game where everything looked and felt the same for the entire game.

2, 3, and Brohood (haven't played Revelations) kept me pretty entertained.

idk i really enjoy the gameplay in asscreeds 2 and 3.

Seems you got me. Yup, I never did form together a full own theory yet. I have many interpretations and theories in my head, but bringing them to the forum would take quite a bit of forehand preparation, which I haven't really time left for.
I would like it if I finally found some free room to work on these thoughts I made about identity in KH, which are still not sorted and fleshed out, only as bullet points in a word document.

As for the general decline in theories I could assume that this had to do with a not so well debate culture around, on one side those who would just rudely shoot down a theory without providing any material why that theory would be false and on the other hand those who would stubbornly insist on their theory despite being proven wrong by several people in a civilized manner. I remember some thread quite a way into the past where a proponent of a theory staunchly refused to acknowledge that his/her theory was impossible because it relied on Roxas and Ventus being the same person/entity, which is proven to be false.

---


That would be another fancy idea to add to the list for sure. Damn, if I only had more time to indulge in these more complex parts of KH lore.


That's what I meant. It would be yet another rip-off/nod to Star Wars and adding this "feature" to MX would just clutter the narrative up with stuff that has no real additional impact on the actual facts and invites controversy with other Darkness users.
I honestly doesn't see why so many people have problems with the gold being Xehanort's natural eye color anyways.

I know, lol, I have several of such "useful" ideas and yet seldom find time to actually realize them. I still haven't managed to sort and flesh out my brainstorming parts towards "identity in KH" I made during my holidays. The whole topic is just too big and complex to bring it together in a few hours.
Searching for worthwhile images of nearly the same quality would be another time-consuming task at hand indeed.
Who knows, maybe this is because of at least a small glimmer of light remaining in their hearts (as opposed to Vanitas') or it's the opposite and indicates that Vanitas' heart is not fully formed (as Ven had also dull, glazed eyes instead of vivid ones as long as his heart was still injured and not fully formed).

And? Wouldn't that just bring us back to the old Star Wars rip-off "Yellow eyes = darkness"? (which would still not explain the other Org members, Pete or any other Darkness user who hasn't got the golden eyes).
Not to mention that Nomura practically confirmed the changing eye colors is due to Xehanort's influence. Besides, if Golden eyes would be a sign of Darkness Eraqus would have realized way earlier that something is wrong with Xehanort and not dumbfoundedly ask: "Has the darkness taken you, Xehanort?" in their flashback.

I will honestly one day make a collage of all those "Xehanort eyes" just in order to hopefully shut many people up over this issue, lol.
From the last time I checked, all of them, Master X, Xemnas, Braig/Xigbar, Isa/Saix, Ansem SoD and Vanitas have a golden eyes in somewhat different shades (Vanitas and MX have a pretty bright shade, although with Vanitas it may also the contrast with the jet-black hair that gives the illusion), Braig and Isa pretty mediocre while Ansem and Xemnas have a darker gold.
No one of them has orange though like the true Ansem the Wise, or I need to get my eyes checked, *ggg*.

That is answered by the secret ending of DDD, we see Xehanort standing there on the beach before meeting XH when he says "this world is just too small" and his eyes are a bright gold, like Master X's and Vanitas'.

That's however what always irks me in another way, as Ansem the Wise's eyes are naturally orange (as seen in BBS, before he took in Xehanort) I would wonder why Ansem SoD (and possibly Xemnas) would be influenced by AtW in any shape or form because Ansem is neither a Keyblade wielder nor is he known to have heart-related powers like Xehanort, Sora, Ventus or the Princesses of heart have.

Not to mention it is different even in the official material, as several pictures portray Ansem SoD and Xemnas also with more golden (although in a darker shade) eyes just like Xigbar, Xehanort and Vanitas have.
I don't see what exactly would an "influence" of sort from Ansem the Wise would mean nor how it is even important for the whole Xehanort mess, as when we go by the reveals of DDD it is more than just hinted that Ansem SoD and Xemnas are wholly in line with Master Xehanort's plan the whole time.

No problem, I had also much to do in RL as well so I didn't yet manage to sort all my brain-storming stuff about identity in KH.

Ansem SoD is clearly one of the toughest examples (together with Xemnas) for one of the toughest topics in KH lore.
The whole issue with stealing Ansem's name is iffy somewhat, but I'd think that might have something to do with "Ansem" SoD's identity not being solely influenced by Xehanort. There's something else in the mix that apparently makes him despise the name "Xehanort" (although I would not go as far and assume that it was any willing or conscious influence on either Terra's or Eraqus' part).