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Riruru

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Also, I laugh at how obviously Sora's VA doesn't like Sokai, like at all. Him throwing shade at Kairi and saying it was probably her fault that Riku fell to darkness in the same beat that he said the paopu scene wasn't romantic was some serious salt. I'm not sure how much we can take a voice actor's word but they usually are directed on what emotions they should feel when voicing a scene, especially such an important one, so there is some credibility here.

I agree that it's hard to believe that Nomura didn't want Sokai to come off as romantic. But to be fair, the actual paopu scene itself did feel pretty off. Kairi emphasizing how she "just wants to be a part of his life, that's all" and Sora's hesitance when she first presented the fruit gave off questionable vibes. That doesn't counteract the hand-holding and all the other romantic undertones though, not by a long shot. Nomura, you gotta spell these things out to people better.

I'm curious about how the "non-sharing" scenario played out.
 

allenleonardo

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Havent posted here for quite some time and somehow my first post after I return is about relationships. :eek:

I am kinda glad that the JP VAs have confirmed that the Paopu scene was not meant to be romantic, because that scene annoyed me quite a bit ingame because it was so strange.

They had their chance to confirm their relationship in this game after countless of hints in all the other games but they did not do that. And now THAT scene is also not meant to be romantic..so please Nomura stick with it and let them all be friends until the end and let all the shippings be fanfic only. This way no side will get hurt and maybe they could focus more on the friendship part.

IMO all the other scenes in this game with Sora and Kairi are also not purely romantic. Holding hands might point towards love if you want it to be that way, but on the other hand how many people in the world hold hands and are only friends? Also if holding someones hand is romantic, does that mean that Sora and Riku are confirmed to be canon since the end of KH2?

In the end all the other big games before 3 had way more hints towards SoKai than this game does and the big important sharing scene is not meant to be romantic. Maybe Nomura changed his mind on them?

I just have a hard time believing their romantic love when Sora himself never even thinks about her much in this game (its not like there could have been enough scenes where he could have mentioned her) and he would have reacted quite similiar (imo) if it was someone else that is important to him. (Protecting them in certain scenes, emotional reaction to certain events)

Anyway I just like to genderbend the characters a bit and see if certain scenes in all the games are still purely romantic or not to see if that is meant that way. Just make Sora into a girl, suddenly quite a lot of scenes with Riku do have a romantic undertone to it which imo is often just ignored because they are both guys in the game thus of course its just brotherly love and nothing more for a lot of people. A lot of scenes with girl!Sora and Kairi would IMMO also be way more about deep friendship than romantic, but of course they would also still have their moments that could be seen as more but way less then its right now, which just shows that a deep friendship between a boy and a girl is often more seen romantic.

But of course all of this is just my opinion.
 

KudoTsurugi

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Also, I laugh at how obviously Sora's VA doesn't like Sokai, like at all. Him throwing shade at Kairi and saying it was probably her fault that Riku fell to darkness in the same beat that he said the paopu scene wasn't romantic was some serious salt. I'm not sure how much we can take a voice actor's word but they usually are directed on what emotions they should feel when voicing a scene, especially such an important one, so there is some credibility here.
That's a bit of a jump into conclusions, don't you think? Just because the guy doesn't view the scenes as romantic, doesn't automatically mean he hates the SoKai ship. If he thinks the scenes aren't meant to be seen as romantic, sure I can get behind that, interpretation is in the eye of the beholder and all that jazz. But assuming he hates a pairing is a bit extreme.
 

Oracle Spockanort

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That's a bit of a jump into conclusions, don't you think? Just because the guy doesn't view the scenes as romantic, doesn't automatically mean he hates the SoKai ship. If he thinks the scenes aren't meant to be seen as romantic, sure I can get behind that, interpretation is in the eye of the beholder and all that jazz. But assuming he hates a pairing is a bit extreme.

He literally starts ragging on SoKai in the interview lol he's doing it in jest but most people who read the interview get the feeling he probably isn't that much of a fan of it
 

*TwilightNight*

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Fun fact: Namine and Olette are dating each other now.

Thought the fandom agreement was Naminé/Xion.



If you have a link to those translator notes I'd like to see them!

Anyway, I've seen how that consensus has been placed on Sora and Kairi, most notably in the scene when they're floating through the ethereal space. But, I'm not sure how much this extends to other characters in corresponding dialogue specifically? In the localization, how much of Roxas and Namine's dialogue is to be taken from the perspective of romance (which, is a very specific relation on the spectrum) versus that in consideration of her character in the overall narrative? The language and promises she uses towards Roxas is virtually no different than what she uses towards Sora in CoM—most of this emphasizing the part of her character narrative that deals with the weight of isolation and loneliness she experienced. Her reasons for reaching out to them were different, yet intertwined, and the execution of her character is still initiated from the aspects that emphasizes those themes of Namine wanting to be connected to others. It's only through interpretive romanticism that Namine's importance and interaction with characters is taken to be implied as romance—which seemingly ends up being this forced cornerstone of what anybody cares about concerning Namine nowadays. Which, I guess, at this point the "eligible candidates" now are Roxas, Riku, and Xion? For god's sake. Unlike with Sora and Kairi (much to the chagrin of many), romance isn't a significant part of her characterization, not even a little. Not that I'm demeaning romance being a part of character, but Namine is unique for a lot of different reasons and has had a narrative that wasn't concentrated on telling that story. I've seen people argue this with Sora in CoM, but we know she drew him towards Castle Oblivion because she was lonely, not as an agent for romantic interest or possibility.

All KH3 did for Namine was remind us that with certain individuals in the context, she explicitly shares a fundamental, strong bond to those shes connected with. Outside of Sora (Donald, Goofy), Roxas, Kairi, and Riku Replica (Riku)—it's a bit more "scattered" in terms of showing this specifically in the game. Yet, I don't agree that KH3 did Namine wrong in this department specifically as it still carried a certain weight throughout the story.

Namine may not have gotten a standing ovation from the group when she was revived, but her scene with Sora in the Final World was a long time coming as it absolutely didn't have a proper resolution in KH2. That scene itself is a representation of the promise they made to each other in CoM, and how Namine's character has grown with other people since then. Showing her to be on the thoughts of Sora, Roxas, Kairi, and many others as they mentioned bringing her back countless times in the story is a big deal for someone like her. Even if she didn't show up until the Final World, this at the very least still has a lot of meaning for her overall character. People putting so much weight on the whole Riku/Riku Replica "romance" thing are really missing the bigger picture here—which really, I believe this is significant more so in line for the following reasons. Showing her there at the end, interacting with Xion and being around the others in the group as her own person, not in isolation—THAT is what is important. We'd all be suffering from repetition if we have to keep mentioning how KH3 lacked on certain character qualities. But, I don't take this for granted as this was still something that could be understood and appreciated from the game's conclusion. Namine gets what she wanted and is happy. It's great, and other than only slightly reminding us of how OP her powers are again, her presence in the game wasn't bad. It ain't perfect, but it wasn't completely vile either for her character.

I got the message that you found the translations. I apologize for it taking so long.

As for Naminé, I'll begin first with what I do agree with. I do like that they've confronted the ongoing "Thank Naminé" situation. I was floored that her sole act in the game was an important tide changing one, probably one of, if not the most crucial (aside from Kairi keeping Sora apparently intact). I even found Riku Replica's sacrifice for her sweet and sad, considering it's what he held unto.

Now for the problematic portion and why I feel Naminé, while treated more fairly than Kairi, was still rather shafted in the whole scheme of things.

There's barely screen time given to the returning characters, so I cannot go on a tirade about Naminé's own. The entire "Thank Naminé" debacle is once more put on hold and has yet to close, since Sora needs to thank her the proper way. Her most key role in KHIII was relegated to a missable cut scene, in which some players did end up skipping past speaking to all the stars, not having any idea that she was one of them, rendering the impact of her summoning Lingering Will to lessen. It would have been a lot more influential if in the midst of this stand still the audience knew from the first go that this was Naminé's doing, instead of it being tainted with confusion as to how LW even got there.

The Riku Replica case. As sweet as it was, Naminé's return, aside from being thrown to Riku (a male character), was used as a tool to close another male character's story arc (Riku Replica's). It doesn't even have to be in a romantic sense, because it was confirmed it wasn't. Yet her only physical appearance, was to appease closure to him. With Nomura wording it in particular as if feeling hers and Riku Replica's bond was this strong, mutual connection. Mind you, the girl did not breathe a single syllable of his name since CoM, I even had gotten the impression that she forgot about him. In CoM itself, there was nothing sufficient to bear such weight other than him promising to protect her and her feeling bad for what the members put him through. She fried his brain/heart at one point by accident. Riku Replica was practically nonexistent for her past this game. There was only a drawing in the white room in the Old Mansion and that was it. Now, suddenly, uwu look at the link between Riku Replica and Naminé. Never mind her personal connections not getting any closure or interactions in the game, oh no. Never mind providing more profound depth to her lines in the Final World, how she feels no one cares about her, her lack of self worth. Not having the people she formed relationships with tell her that she's cared for, missed, and wanted. What's important is that Riku Replica does. That is legit what she ultimately amounted to once she came back.

It's Kairi all over again.
 

Oracle Spockanort

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Havent posted here for quite some time and somehow my first post after I return is about relationships. :eek:

Welcome back! Also I just want to say I love your post <3

I am kinda glad that the JP VAs have confirmed that the Paopu scene was not meant to be romantic, because that scene annoyed me quite a bit ingame because it was so strange.

Agreed. It comes out of left-field, has no build-up, and it is just...not romantic? It's awkward and stilted. It's not a pleasant scene to watch, so framing it as platonic makes it easier to swallow because it stops feeling like an absolute failure.

They had their chance to confirm their relationship in this game after countless of hints in all the other games but they did not do that. And now THAT scene is also not meant to be romantic..so please Nomura stick with it and let them all be friends until the end and let all the shippings be fanfic only. This way no side will get hurt and maybe they could focus more on the friendship part.

This is honestly the hope. Nomura works best when he is developing friendships. It's why Sora and Riku are so believable, and also why people love RAX as a trio so much. He shines when he is writing friendships and giving those characters all equal time to shine together and apart.

IMO all the other scenes in this game with Sora and Kairi are also not purely romantic. Holding hands might point towards love if you want it to be that way, but on the other hand how many people in the world hold hands and are only friends? Also if holding someones hand is romantic, does that mean that Sora and Riku are confirmed to be canon since the end of KH2?

On top of that, hands and handholding as a form of communication has been a thing in this series for awhile now. We've seen so many moments where characters reach out to each other, hold somebody's hands to give comfort, to establish a friendship, to say goodbye. Sora and Kairi doing it isn't something that should inherently confirm romantic intent.

Also if handholding is a romantic gesture, Riku and Mickey are also super canon because they cornered the market on meaningful handholding.

I'm joking of course, but it's blown my mind that people consider handholding to be the confirmation of anything when it is at best an implication based on how one frames it.

In the end all the other big games before 3 had way more hints towards SoKai than this game does and the big important sharing scene is not meant to be romantic. Maybe Nomura changed his mind on them?

There is a good number of us who believe Nomura really just doesn't like Kairi and/or Sora and Kairi as a pairing, so he used KH3 as a send-off for them. Without the need to fulfill some leftover plot thread from previous games, he can finally move past it and develop the story he wants to focus on rather than having to worry about people wondering "when are Sora and Kairi going to share the paopu?" from something he made years ago and has ignored for the better part of 17 years.

I just have a hard time believing their romantic love when Sora himself never even thinks about her much in this game (its not like there could have been enough scenes where he could have mentioned her) and he would have reacted quite similiar (imo) if it was someone else that is important to him. (Protecting them in certain scenes, emotional reaction to certain events)

Yes, there were plenty of moments that could have easily called back to Kairi. In fact, KH1 and KH2 did this but it is completely missing from KH3. Will and Elizabeth being split apart from each other could have called back to KH1's ending; Flynn's death and Rapunzel's healing tear could have called back to Kairi bringing Sora back from being a Heartless; Sora could have thought about Kairi during the Kingdom Dance; Sora could have thought about Kairi during Herc's proclamation to Meg.

These feel like common sense callbacks. If nothing else, all it shows is that Sora and Kairi's relationship was not a focus at all when they were writing the story for the game, which is weird when the last 2 hours suddenly remember Sora and Kairi's bond and try to bring it back into the story. It's rushed for no reason.

Anyway I just like to genderbend the characters a bit and see if certain scenes in all the games are still purely romantic or not to see if that is meant that way. Just make Sora into a girl, suddenly quite a lot of scenes with Riku do have a romantic undertone to it which imo is often just ignored because they are both guys in the game thus of course its just brotherly love and nothing more for a lot of people.

A lot of scenes with girl!Sora and Kairi would IMMO also be way more about deep friendship than romantic, but of course they would also still have their moments that could be seen as more but way less then its right now, which just shows that a deep friendship between a boy and a girl is often more seen romantic.

But of course all of this is just my opinion.

Essentially!
 

allenleonardo

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Welcome back! Also I just want to say I love your post <3

This is honestly the hope. Nomura works best when he is developing friendships. It's why Sora and Riku are so believable, and also why people love RAX as a trio so much. He shines when he is writing friendships and giving those characters all equal time to shine together and apart.


There is a good number of us who believe Nomura really just doesn't like Kairi and/or Sora and Kairi as a pairing, so he used KH3 as a send-off for them. Without the need to fulfill some leftover plot thread from previous games, he can finally move past it and develop the story he wants to focus on rather than having to worry about people wondering "when are Sora and Kairi going to share the paopu?" from something he made years ago and has ignored for the better part of 17 years.


Yes, there were plenty of moments that could have easily called back to Kairi. In fact, KH1 and KH2 did this but it is completely missing from KH3. Will and Elizabeth being split apart from each other could have called back to KH1's ending; Flynn's death and Rapunzel's healing tear could have called back to Kairi bringing Sora back from being a Heartless; Sora could have thought about Kairi during the Kingdom Dance; Sora could have thought about Kairi during Herc's proclamation to Meg.

Thanks for the welcome. :redface:

Not only does he do friendship better but I think less focus on SoraxKairi would also do Kairi as a character itself better. She is just so single minded focused on Sora and his well being that it came of really horrible in Kh3. I mean she has probably spent more time with Axel training and talking than with Sora for the last few years and yet her highest concern is Sora. While Sora himself does care about her and would do a lot for her, he also has other people on his mind. And this games shows it with him barely even mentioning her in the game. If we ever get a Kairi focused game I hope that most of her dialogue does not resolve around him and that maybe she could grow as a character on her own..not a plot device for Sora.

Also good to know that I am not the only one that feels that Nomura might not like them as a pairing anymore.

Its really funny with the call back moments. I mean in KH1 it was kinda forced on Sora because Kairis heart was in him. Thus a huge amount of those scenes were either Kairis doing or just her heart reacting. In Kh3 he never thinks about her at all. He also never really seems to be afraid that she will be fighting against Xehanort either. It really is getting harder to believe that she is his Light and most important person.

I am also not a fan of having a character that is willing to kill themselves to save a person..I find that to be a bit unhealthy, even for a friendship and worse for a relationship. Its fine if you are in a fight and decide to protect and then get hurt or killed. But Sora was always way too ready to kill himself and I never liked this about them. Especially since Kairi barely does anything active in exchange. (Please Nomura protect my dear pure boy. :eek:)
 
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Sephiroth0812

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Looking over it all again it really does seem that apart from one instance where Kairi speaks about Naminé for once it is always only Sora that's on her mind, as if she doesn't even have any interests or aims/goals independent of him.
 

allenleonardo

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Looking over it all again it really does seem that apart from one instance where Kairi speaks about Naminé for once it is always only Sora that's on her mind, as if she doesn't even have any interests or aims/goals independent of him.

Which is imo exactly the problem with this character. And even the one scene where she is talking about freeing Namine never ended good. It was not Kairi that saved her (since she was death) and Nomura confirmed that Namines heart went out of Kairi when she was killed. It would have been a great way to have her be at least the reason why Namine is her own person...heck this could have been its own game. Have Kairi travel sleeping worlds to learn the power of waking herself and at the end free Namine with that, while Riku is off going to save Sora.

Its just sad when you have a character that can be soley defined by "potential love interest" and "plot device when necessary".

They could have easily changed this a bit by showing us that Kairi was wishing for all of them to be save, then use her PoH power actively but because she never trained to use it and because she was using it for something that should not be possible, she was only able to save Sora through her bond with him (or maybe because of the Paopu fruit). This way it feels like she cares about them all..while right now, I as a player have to assume that she really just wanted Sora to be save...
 

KudoTsurugi

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I guess when it comes to Kairi, what a lot of us want is simply a case of "show, don't tell", and unfortunately for as much as the writing tells us that Kairi is someone special to Sora, it's not exactly strong at showing us how. And I don't even mean this as a ship thing either. As a character, she's given a lot, but not a lot is done with what she's given. And that's what bugs me.

He literally starts ragging on SoKai in the interview lol he's doing it in jest but most people who read the interview get the feeling he probably isn't that much of a fan of it
Okay, I guess that's fair. As much as I'm a fan of SoKai as a pairing, the last thing I want for it would be to have it forced into the plot. I'd rather it come across as natural as possible if it ever properly became a thing, which of course is unlikely.
 

Alpha Baymax

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I don't care for romantic relationships in Kingdom Hearts because the writers for Kingdom Hearts are awful with romance.

What I will say is that I am more interested in the friendship dynamics moving forward. I hope Nomura abandons the Wayfinder and Seasalt trio branding in favour of an interchangeable groups of friends. The Destiny Island trio can keep their friendship as it's the most definitive and marketable for Kingdom Hearts.
 

Nukara

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If we talk about relationships, I am one of the few people who shipp Gula / Ava?
 

SuperNova

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I’m glad I’m not the only one who found the paopu scene to be really cringy in 3. The entire game when Kairi is shown she’s either almost always talking about or thinking about Sora. While Sora is thinking about Riku more than the girl who is supposed to be super important to him lol.

It feels like Nomura was just rushing the ‘romance’ prospect of the SoKai ship just so he could get it out of the way and Kairi could go back to warming her bench on the island. I’ve always found the friendship between Sora and Riku to be more emotionally thrilling than whatever scraps SoKai has.
 

alexis.anagram

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It feels like Nomura was just rushing the ‘romance’ prospect of the SoKai ship just so he could get it out of the way and Kairi could go back to warming her bench on the island.
Pretty confident this was Nomura's approach to the entire game motivation here. Kairi's absence from the secret ending speaks for itself at this point.

*Cue that subsection of fans still insisting Nomura is saving her for something extra special. Don't get me wrong, I admire the tenacity.
 

kaseykockroach

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The more I play Wind Waker, the more I find Legend of Zelda's the kind of adventure Nomura wish he could do. But he lacks the talent or creative tenacity, so he just makes money off of Disney fans and weaboos.
 

Nukara

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The more I play Wind Waker, the more I find Legend of Zelda's the kind of adventure Nomura wish he could do. But he lacks the talent or creative tenacity, so he just makes money off of Disney fans and weaboos.
This is a completely different game.
Yes, and KH3 is still in my opinion a good game.
 

allenleonardo

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This is a completely different game.
Yes, and KH3 is still in my opinion a good game.


I fully agree with you. Nomura might not be the best in story department (especially if he has too many ideas in his head) but that really sounded like he cant do story writing at all.

Also not sure if there are any clues that he would have ever wanted something like Wind Waker. I do think that the KH story is mostly that what Nomura wants out of it, just not something all of us like.

I mean I played Zelda BotW and it was one of my favorite games but KH3 was still more emotional to me. In the end I do like both games quite a lot, so I really dont understand that heavy Normura bashing that some have going on on this site but also on others. (Not saying that its near perfect but still quite solid)

Anyway relationships might not be where he shines so maybe friendship only and maybe less characters in the next saga would be better.
 

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Sadly I think that most of the characters introduced in the first saga are done. The only ones I can see going forward out of the lights are Sora, Riku, Mickey (Disney), Donald and Goofy (Also Disney), Lea, Ventus, and maybe Aqua.
 

FudgemintGuardian

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I've noticed with SoKai it's really just how Sora acts in the scenes that makes the whole thing feel off. Now I'm headcanoning that he and Kairi were romantically in love at first, however Sora's feelings changed after their reunion at The World That Never Was but he's afraid of hurting her feelings so puts up a facade.

Anyway I just like to genderbend the characters a bit and see if certain scenes in all the games are still purely romantic or not to see if that is meant that way. Just make Sora into a girl, suddenly quite a lot of scenes with Riku do have a romantic undertone to it which imo is often just ignored because they are both guys in the game thus of course its just brotherly love and nothing more for a lot of people. A lot of scenes with girl!Sora and Kairi would IMMO also be way more about deep friendship than romantic, but of course they would also still have their moments that could be seen as more but way less then its right now, which just shows that a deep friendship between a boy and a girl is often more seen romantic.
^ But heck, even as a boy Sora and Riku's scenes ooze romance.

They even made beautiful music together~

I am also not a fan of having a character that is willing to kill themselves to save a person..I find that to be a bit unhealthy, even for a friendship and worse for a relationship. Its fine if you are in a fight and decide to protect and then get hurt or killed. But Sora was always way too ready to kill himself and I never liked this about them. Especially since Kairi barely does anything active in exchange. (Please Nomura protect my dear pure boy. :eek:)
Granted things always turn out okay. Nobody dies in Kingdom Hearts after all. XD Though come to think of it, that mentality is probably exactly why Sora is so eagerly willing to kill himself to save his friends.

And that ain't healthy ya'll.
 

GenoBois

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though I do wonder what other writers could take director spot for the next saga, if possible anyways. Hiroyuki Ito worked on final fantasy 9 on those relationships good from what i heard. In fact, feel this should a thread of it's own.
 
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