The treatment of women in this series

[Elysium]

I kind of expected her to just stand around in the background while Sora did everything. But this is even worse, she’s constantly humiliated and embarrassed without a single good heroic moment of her own during the big climax.

That's not exactly true though, is it? She's the only reason Sora and everyone else didn't die, really. Chirithy said she's the reason Sora didn't vanish. I still wonder if we're supposed to assume that's because of the paopu fruit? Because she's among the living, he can't really die because their souls are tethered or something. Like--do they have real power now or is it just a symbol only?

 

[DarkosOverlord]

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I'll say this: I liked that tiny moment when they're all surrounded by Heartless and Aqua basically takes charge, telling them to group up and don't break formation. It felt right considering her character and experience with those quantities of enemies.

 

[Twilight Lumiair]

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I'll say this: I liked that tiny moment when they're all surrounded by Heartless and Aqua basically takes charge, telling them to group up and don't break formation. It felt right considering her character and experience with those quantities of enemies.

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Until she was immediately going to recklessly rush into the swarm of heartless (which would have broke up their formation anyway), and Lea had to advise her that "splitting up was a bad idea." But honestly yeah, I'd actually like that line too if only she actually showed the others she was wise enough to listen to beforehand instead of constantly being reckless (and silly in some instances) in this game. Idk, just didn't carry much weight to me, and was somewhat hard to take seriously after seeing the decisions they made with her this game.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

Oh well, at least they're consistent with that. Forgetting common sense and sacrificing oneself for others is TAV's signature mood.

And yes, it was a miniscule moment, but at this point I'll take what I can get. I'm in that stage of grief lol.

 

[Face My Fears]

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So I'm just going to start off by saying that Aqua and Xion are two of my favourite characters from the KH series.

With that being said, I will now say that I feel that a lot of the issues with representation in KH stems from it being Sora's story and the overload of characters/stories. I know people were expecting more from KH3 because "it's 2019", but KH3 had so many different things to handle that everything could not be done. That's the reality of the situation.

I think what we can look forward to is starting fresh in KH4 now that the Xehanort saga has been wrapped up.

I know Kairi is a touchy subject. I was excited to see her actually fight in KH3, but I think the most we got was in-video one swipe at a heartless and in-combat a party member for a few minutes. Then she gets kidnapped (again) and killed.

This may be a problematic comment, but I would like to hear people's opinions on what I'm going to say. I felt like all the other games barely developed Sora, but KH3 finally gave Sora some development. His statement about how his journey started the day he went searching for Kairi and the scene when Kairi "saved" him (holding onto him from The Final World) really showed their bond and how much they need each other. I felt like the whole game was showing Sora's vulnerabilities with each world that we visited, like in Olympus where he felt his strength questioned (even annoyed when supported by Donald/Goofy). His biggest vulnerability is Kairi and Xehanort played upon it. He wanted Sora to make a mistake in his rage. Now I know that this is a typical occurrence for super hero stories, but we don't know where this can go. I feel like they were building towards more focus on Sora/Kairi for the next game (which yes I know is what everyone was saying would happen in this game).

Anyway, I digress. I think that KH3 suffered this way because there was way too much to get done and limited time. A lot of characters get nothing to work with and I think that Aqua getting her own game was a positive step in the right direction. I mean I loved the scene where Xehanort's Heartless fought her in the realm of darkness and was like "where's your keyblade?" and Aqua was like "don't need one."

 

[Nala]

Similarly Sora even says "Why her?" because she was the one he cared about the most clearly. He could have picked anyone else and Sora wouldn't have cared.

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If that was true, it would be extremely OOC for Sora. But I don't think it is true. Just imagine it would've been Riku Xehanort killed, not Kairi. Don't you think Sora would've reacted the exact same way? Or Donald or Goofy or pretty much everyone of his friends. He literally jumped Davy Jones when he stabbed Will, not really thinking about what he was doing. Yeah, maybe he cared for Kairi the most. But his reaction wasn't exclusively reserved for her. If Xehanort picked anyone else close to Sora it would've been the same outcome. At least in my opinion.

 

[Face My Fears]

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If that was true, it would be extremely OOC for Sora. But I don't think it is true. Just imagine it would've been Riku Xehanort killed, not Kairi. Don't you think Sora would've reacted the exact same way? Or Donald or Goofy or pretty much everyone of his friends. He literally jumped Davy Jones when he stabbed Will, not really thinking about what he was doing. Yeah, maybe he cared for Kairi the most. But his reaction wasn't exclusively reserved for her. If Xehanort picked anyone else close to Sora it would've been the same outcome. At least in my opinion.

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I feel like they were trying to go for the "Kairi got killed" shock factor and the undertones of Sora/Kairi's relationship throughout KH3 was meant to cause the scene to pull at the heart strings. I think it was subtly hinted to during gameplay how this was affecting Sora as "Rage Mode" kept coming up after Kairi got killed. That didn't come up after other times that hurt Sora's feelings.

 

[Pokie]

Is there really a difference between the two? They may politely ask for more female representation, but what thet actually mean is that "women should be strong and independent, it's weak for a woman to rely on a man and the romantic subplots hinder their true potential". Trust me, I know how this works with them.

I swear that's not what we are not debating about? We just want Kairi to be more of her own character, her own person so to speak, rather than just being plot development for Sora. Bit of a difference?

 

[DarkosOverlord]

Don't reply to Onion anymore. He got banned from the discussion.

 

[Pokie]

Don't reply to Onion anymore. He got banned from the discussion.

Sorry, just wanted to be open-minded to everybody, even if I highly disagreed with 'em.

Though, as I said before, it did seem like he's stuck with a 1950's mindset.

 

[Face My Fears]

I swear that's not what we are not debating about? We just want Kairi to be more of her own character, her own person so to speak, rather than just being plot development for Sora. Bit of a difference?

I am all for this. I just think that KH3 was probably not the best game for it, as there was countless things that needed to be resolved. The situation at hand in KH3 sort of forced Kairi to remain in the role of "most important thing to Sora" and hence a tool of manipulation of Sora. Hopefully after KH3 we can see Kairi doing her own thing.

Maybe we can get DLC of Kairi/Axel visiting some worlds for practice that happened off screen?

 

[KeybladeLordSora]

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Kairi and Axel would've actually done better if Yen Sid had picked someone who actually knew how to use a sword to teach them. Instead, he picked Merlin, who left his post just to shove Winnie the Pooh into Sora's face for a third time.

Instead of having Riku teach them, or doing it himself because he's a FORMER KEYBLADE MASTER, he picked the wizard who has no experience in using a keyblade and is obsessed with a freaking storybook that was rendered obsolete by the Datascape and the Book of Prophecies.

Kairi and Axel's poor training only left them with the bare basics of sword fighting, and thus they were unprepared for the battle and basically gave Xehanort an advantage.

They were novices, they were just thrown into a battle they weren't ready for, and they faced the consequences.

At least they were party members...and I will give Kairi credit for actually being able to stand against Xion, who channeled Saix's power, with what limited skills she had.

...i may not have brought my point across in a good way. Probably because I didn't get enough sleep.

 

[Face My Fears]

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Kairi and Axel would've actually done better if Yen Sid had picked someone who actually knew how to use a sword to teach them. Instead, he picked Merlin, who left his post just to shove Winnie the Pooh into Sora's face for a third time.

Instead of having Riku teach them, or doing it himself because he's a FORMER KEYBLADE MASTER, he picked the wizard who has no experience in using a keyblade and is obsessed with a freaking storybook that was rendered obsolete by the Datascape and the Book of Prophecies.

Kairi and Axel's poor training only left them with the bare basics of sword fighting, and thus they were unprepared for the battle and basically gave Xehanort an advantage.

They were novices, they were just thrown into a battle they weren't ready for, and they faced the consequences.

At least they were party members...and I will give Kairi credit for actually being able to stand against Xion, who channeled Saix's power, with what limited skills she had.

...i may not have brought my point across in a good way. Probably because I didn't get enough sleep.

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I don't think Merlin really has anything to do with how good/bad Kairi and Axel were in combat. We're supposed to believe that he gave them amazing training and that they were ready to go at the end of it. Merlin also "left his post" the day before Kairi/Axel were supposed to fight each other as the last part of their training (I wish they showed this fight as a cutscene or you take control of Kairi and beat Axel), so I don't think that's as bad you make it out to be.

 

[OneDandelion]

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These games are told from Soras perspective you know? Whether you want to believe it or not nothing quite motivates a man like a girl he loves. Xehanort exploiting that isn't bad story telling, its real. But despite Kairi only just starting wielding a keyblade she is shown being very brave. As far as Xion goes I thought she was great and she does fight alongside Sora. And Larxene is one of the most badass villains in the series imo. Sorry if you hate men so much that you can't look passed the damsel in distress narrative to see the actual value of it all?

I just can't forgive Nomura for the scenes with Aqua. Defeated by Vanitas. Let's Terranort slash Ven and just stands there. Stripped of her keyblade. Waits for friends in the RoD and does nothing but hope. After everything that happened in 0.2? After being a keyblade master? After given more development than Kairi? It's bad writing.

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Aqua didn't lose to Vanitas, Vanitas exploited her weakness by attacking Ven. Although she never should have fought him alone in the first place

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The treatment of women in KH is the one thing I'm most disappointed that reviewers aren't addressing. I haven't seen any attempt to call this for what it is and hold KH3 to a 2019 standard of representation and the assassination or erasure of characters like Aqua and Namine shouldn't just be taken in stride. My hope is that once the novelty of KH3 wears off and people have some time to sit with it that these issues will become more prevalent in discussing the legacy and future of the series, though I also believe this game won't hold up to scrutiny very well in most respects so hopefully there's a reckoning to be had on all of it down the line.

But in short, the treatment of women in KH3 repositions it in my mind from a tepid disappointment to something more actively offensive. None of it was called for, and all of it could have been easily avoided.

made me laugh, nomura isnt a slave to your sjw ideology. if you don't like it go play a game starring a female protagonist

 

[Face My Fears]

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These games are told from Soras perspective you know? Whether you want to believe it or not nothing quite motivates a man like a girl he loves. Xehanort exploiting that isn't bad story telling, its real. But despite Kairi only just starting wielding a keyblade she is shown being very brave. As far as Xion goes I thought she was great and she does fight alongside Sora. And Larxene is one of the most badass villains in the series imo. Sorry if you hate men so much that you can't look passed the damsel in distress narrative to see the actual value of it all?

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Aqua didn't lose to Vanitas, Vanitas exploited her weakness by attacking Ven. Although she never should have fought him alone in the first place

made me laugh, nomura isnt a slave to your sjw ideology. if you don't like it go play a game starring a female protagonist

Hey don't bring all that SJW political crap talk here, please. I don't want to see that nonsense in a forum for a game I love. If you don't like a thread where people DISCUSS female representation in the game, then go to a thread that doesn't have it.

You actually had some points, but you had to go and make things all political and attack people for no reason. I don't think I saw any post in here where any of the posters alluded to "hating men". I don't think there's a single post in here hating on Sora or any other male character in the series.

 

[OneDandelion]

Dude this entire thread is ripping on the series for having damsel in distress as a motivating factor. The post I responded to cited "2019 levels of representation"

I'm not the one who wants to have this talk; this is 100% what happens when a person can't appreciate a game for what it is because it doesn't include the things they want. All I'm saying is that the story is a masterpiece the way it is and does not need to be changed to be more inclusive to anyone.

 

[SerDuncan]

Dude this entire thread is ripping on the series for having damsel in distress as a motivating factor. The post I responded to cited "2019 levels of representation"

I'm not the one who wants to have this talk; this is 100% what happens when a person can't appreciate a game for what it is because it doesn't include the things they want. All I'm saying is that the story is a masterpiece the way it is and does not need to be changed to be more inclusive to anyone.

This game is far from a masterpiece, even without including the issues with representation and portrayal that this thread is dealing with. This isn't just a question of SJW ideology or feminism here (although it is worrying), the lack of female character agency in this game actively makes the story worse by making previously interesting characters into simple plot devices. I don't know if many people would honestly say that this game's "version" of Aqua or Namine was better than their original portrayals.

 

[Face My Fears]

Dude this entire thread is ripping on the series for having damsel in distress as a motivating factor. The post I responded to cited "2019 levels of representation"

I'm not the one who wants to have this talk; this is 100% what happens when a person can't appreciate a game for what it is because it doesn't include the things they want. All I'm saying is that the story is a masterpiece the way it is and does not need to be changed to be more inclusive to anyone.

See, I agree with you that I love the story as is. However, with any story, people are going to analyze it and find faults. Whether they're faults to you or not, that is subjective. A lot of my friends hate on KH because to them the "story is too complicated", but to me and a lot of people on this forum that know all about KH - it isn't.

Nothing is wrong with some posters having a rational discussion about the series having a damsel in distress as a motivating factor. If some people don't like what they perceive the direction of the game headed because "in 2019", then let those people discuss it in peace. You don't need to come into their thread and attack them. If you came in and stated your opinion on why the story is fine as is, then I wouldn't have said anything, but right off the bat you're claiming people have "SJW ideology" and telling them to go play another game.

I posted something in here and no one has attacked me for it. I think you might agree with me: https://forums.khinsider.com/spoilers/218564-treatment-women-series-7.html#post6560472

 

[OneDandelion]

This game is far from a masterpiece, even without including the issues with representation and portrayal that this thread is dealing with. This isn't just a question of SJW ideology or feminism here (although it is worrying), the lack of female character agency in this game actively makes the story worse by making previously interesting characters into simple plot devices. I don't know if many people would honestly say that this game's "version" of Aqua or Namine was better than their original portrayals.

Some character flaws aside, I disagree. I think the ideas that Nomura has put forward and the way everything has tied together is honestly a work of genius.

If you want to ignore that this is largely a feminist issue in this thread fine. Im with EeL to be honest and I'd rather not talk about it anyway.

Characters act as plot devices all the time. In stories plot devices are necessary... to progress the story in a direction that it needs to go. I understand you don't like the way that a few plot devices were used in KH3, and I agree they could have been executed better - but they aren't as bad as you say they are. They don't ruin the characters and they haven't undermined the significance of the truly important parts of the story.

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See, I agree with you that I love the story as is. However, with any story, people are going to analyze it and find faults. Whether they're faults to you or not, that is subjective. A lot of my friends hate on KH because to them the "story is too complicated", but to me and a lot of people on this forum that know all about KH - it isn't.

Nothing is wrong with some posters having a rational discussion about the series having a damsel in distress as a motivating factor. If some people don't like what they perceive the direction of the game headed because "in 2019", then let those people discuss it in peace. You don't need to come into their thread and attack them. If you came in and stated your opinion on why the story is fine as is, then I wouldn't have said anything, but right off the bat you're claiming people have "SJW ideology" and telling them to go play another game.

I posted something in here and no one has attacked me for it. I think you might agree with me: https://forums.khinsider.com/spoilers/218564-treatment-women-series-7.html#post6560472

Yes, I fully agree with you. And Aqua and Xion are two of my favorite characters as well. We could be best friends!

But I feel I do need to bring it up. Because the "damsal in distress" narrative is one of the biggest motivating factors for the protagonist in this series I love and it wouldn't work nearly as well without it. So a thread attacking that narrative as something inherently bad in the name of "2019" and "progress" is a terrible thing in my opinion; especially because they are not critiquing it as a valid element of the story, they are critiquing it merely for existing

 

[Tempo]

why do people keep coming into obviously feminist-leaning threads to complain about feminism
why do people keep coming into a KINGDOM HEARTS FORUM to complain about feminism
alexa kill this clown