So I'm starting this thread so I can get some true clarity about this subject. For a long time i couldn't understand why people have it in there mind that Vanitas was destroyed by Ventus at the end of his story. At first I just went along with it (like most more than likely did) and assumed this was the case. However after doing some thorough research, I've come to the conclusion that this simply can't be correct. Now before I go into why, let's make an overview of his character first. Not his story, but his anatomy.
Vanitas was created from Ventus due to Master Xehanort breaking his heart in two, after Ventus failed to use his Darkness. This makes him a very unique existence as he is the physical embodiment of Ventus' darkness. That being said, he's not human. You see when Ventus was broken he never lost his body, it was clearly not effect by the separation. Recall that while he was being split only part of his heart was visibly being removed from his body. Shortly after the heart fragment was engulfed in a dark orb before his personal body was formed. In other words his body was formed purely from darkness. More evidence for his abnormal body is the fact that he was actually faceless upon his initial creation. Described as something similar to a heartless, but with red eyes (similar to a nightmare or unversed).
Vanitas can create Unversed fledgling emotions that have token form (specifically negative emotions). It was a side-effect of being separated. Meaning if he "cease to exist", so do they.
During his battle with Ventus in the Keyblade Graveyard he was defeated before speaking the line "Now that my body is about to perish, you and I will have to join together." After he says this he approaches the restrained Ventus, and merges with him. By doing this he successfully spawns the X-blade and becomes whole. However this is short lived due to his final defeat at the hands of Ventus in their shared mind, thus seemingly destroying Vanitas for good and ridding the worlds of the unversed.
Now while I understand where this point is coming from, please tell me what states, or even HINTS to this conclusion? First I'd like to address some common arguments I see for this topic.
1) The Unversed are nowhere to be found after Birth By Sleep. Not even mentioned.
Response: This is true, the Unversed aren't anywhere after Birth By Sleep. However, There are quite a few ways to tie up this loose end. First, remember that the Unversed are side effects of Ventus' and Vanitas' separation. They are Vanitas' negative emotions and thoughts (as revealed in the novel) that get released from his mind both at will and uncontrollably. Though its never stated, this was more than likely due to the fact that Vanitas is pure darkness with no light to keep his thoughts at bay. Meaning once he joined with Ventus and became whole again, the unversed more than likely could not escape or even sustain themselves. Though this is a maybe. A more likely answer comes from a secret boss in the game known as Vanitas' lingering spirit. Canonically, Aqua fights this boss while looking for Terra, mistaking the creature for her friend. Though she manages to defeat it before it fades back into the darkness. Vanitas Remnant was described in its character profile to be "A physical manifestation of what remained of Vanitas' powerful thoughts and feelings." Sound familiar? This boss is more than likely the combination of all the remaining Unversed. In other words Vanitas' thoughts and feelings. And thanks to Sora's heartless in re:coded we know that if something evolves enough, it can begin to look like the real thing.
2) Vanitas MUST have been destroyed, otherwise Ventus wouldn't have had to retreat to Sora's heart. We even see him perish after he loses the X-Blade!
Response: Actually that scene isn't quite as straight forward as one might think at first glance (though to be honest, I never really interpreted that scene as Vanitas' "death" to begin with). First off all, neither darkness nor a heart can be destroyed. As stated many MANY times by multiple individuals in the series, as long as there is light, darkness will always continue to exist no matter the circumstance. Meaning so long as Ventus' heart continues to exist, so will Vanitas. And all the heart is are the unique memories someone creates, and the feelings associated with those memories (as stated by Xemnas and Sora in Dream Drop Distance). Hence why Ansem the Wise instead attempted to convert the artificial Kingdom Hearts into data (though even this ended in failure) rather than destroy it all together.
Second, upon closer inspection of that scene, you begin to notice very odd details. Like for example, when Vanitas is falling after losing the X-Blade, a piece of him DOES manage to make contact with Ventus' heart before it changes back to normal. In fact the way they emphasis this shot makes it appear like its deliberate (almost as if that's what prompted it to go back to normal to begin with). While most would use this scene as proof for the other way around, I found it odd that Ventus' heart appeared this way, at all. Given the circumstances, his heart should of resembled the way it did back when he was on Destiny Islands in the beginning of the game. After all he would've no longer needed Sora's help. Oh, and while I'm on the subject, I'd like to point out that Ventus actually kept a majority of his heart. But his light was escaping his heart at a rapid rate, which is what Sora follows in order to find Ventus. The scene where Sora helps Ventus helps to visually support this too. Which might explain why Vanitas constantly feels so empty, but that's supposition. Anyway, I also went on to check to the trinity archives for Ventus in order to see if there were any solid confirmations of anything about Vanitas dying. To my surprise, it was incredibly vague about the ending of Ven's story.
Notice that the text doesn't refer to Vanitas' fate, or even the state of Ven's heart, at all. Whats more interesting is the trinity archive for Aqua's final episode. For the purposes of this thread, I want you to focus on the bottom.
I'm sure the evidence speaks for it self, but I would like to clarify something. In the scene where Ventus meets a young Sora for the second time, he was apparently floating in his own darkness. Meaning Ventus' darkness still exist, and by extension Vanitas. Though I personally wouldn't consider him(Vanitas) present in this scene, even though he technically is. You see the fact that the darkness Ventus was floating in was his own darkness, means Vanitas ceased to exist as an independent faction. In other words he just wasn't darkness that was sentient anymore. Or at least that's what it seems to be implying. On that note there's one more thing I'd like to point out. When I say "ceased to exist", I mean ceased to exist in the Realm of Light (that's what the term means when its used in the series). It doesn't mean there's no trace left of him, just that he didn't PHYSICALLY exist anymore. Similar to Roxas at the end of Kingdom Hearts 2 (this was actually stated in his character profile for Dream Drop Distance). If you want to get real technical, Vanitas technically ceased to exist when he merged with Ventus. So with all things considered, lets discuss some possible theories on that Ventus final boss ending scene and make some sense out of this. Based on the fact that Ventus' dive to heart went back to normal and not into a fractured state, its possible that Vanitas could've of simply relinquished control of their heart back to Ventus. That would explain how Vanitas was technically present when Ven met Sora at the end of Birth By Sleep, and why Ventus' heart wasn't visibly fractured at the end of their battle. But this poses a question, if Ventus' heart wasn't fractured then why flee his body? Well I never said his heart WASN'T fractured, just no where near the extent it was before. A fracture isn't necessarily a full breakage of something, technically it can be something as small as a crack. It's also possible that his heart was simply exhausted to a severe level. Hence the need to "sleep." Though this answer is sadly just supposition. There's simply no real way to get a definitive answer on this specific question, at least not one that I know of. But assuming this is the case, this poses ANOTHER question. If Ventus' whole heart left his body, then why didn't his body fade and possibly become a nobody in the Realm Between? Well its possible that its because Ventus' soul was still in his heart. We know thanks to a interview with Tetsuya Nomura (forgive me I can't find the specific one at the moment), that it is possible for hearts to carry souls out of their body. This is evident when Master Xehanort possesses Terra. So its possible this is the reason Ventus' body is comatose.
As for Vanitas' status as a Seeker of Darkness in Kingdom Hearts 3, there are a couple of theories I have in mind.
1) He could be inside of Ventus', and by extension Sora's, heart. Giving some meaning to Young Xehanort's famous line in La Cité des Cloches. Though I'm unsure how Xehanort would even plan to deal with this.
2) Young Xehanort time traveled to bring him back for the KH3 finale. Though this is questionable because Tetsuya Nomura stated in an interview that unlike Ansem and Xemnas, Vanitas doesn't have a body at this time. Rather, what we're seeing in that Young Xehanort scene is Ventus' heart "reacting." This is strange because going off the Kingdom Hearts 3 trailer, Vanitas HAS to be one the 13. What's even more confusing is we saw all the Seekers of Darkness present in the Room Where Nothing Gathers at the end of DDD. ALL OF THEM (bar the thirteenth) were in that room. Meaning they either somehow got Vanitas a body, or they have him as a possible back up. I mean, there IS a perfectly good body sitting unguarded in Castle Oblivion after all. All Xehanort would need to do is find it. That's IF he has Vanitas' heart somehow.
But enough with the theories, lets wrap this up!!
So in summary, I just can't believe that Vanitas perished at the end of BBS. And even if he somehow DOES, it won't have been because of this fight. Though I'm very interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on this subject now that I've pretty much stated my concerns. I've also given you my personal thoughts on his inevitable status as one of the thirteen Seekers of Darkness, so feel free to leave your thoughts on that too. I look forward to seeing THAT user reply!
Vanitas was created from Ventus due to Master Xehanort breaking his heart in two, after Ventus failed to use his Darkness. This makes him a very unique existence as he is the physical embodiment of Ventus' darkness. That being said, he's not human. You see when Ventus was broken he never lost his body, it was clearly not effect by the separation. Recall that while he was being split only part of his heart was visibly being removed from his body. Shortly after the heart fragment was engulfed in a dark orb before his personal body was formed. In other words his body was formed purely from darkness. More evidence for his abnormal body is the fact that he was actually faceless upon his initial creation. Described as something similar to a heartless, but with red eyes (similar to a nightmare or unversed).
Vanitas can create Unversed fledgling emotions that have token form (specifically negative emotions). It was a side-effect of being separated. Meaning if he "cease to exist", so do they.
During his battle with Ventus in the Keyblade Graveyard he was defeated before speaking the line "Now that my body is about to perish, you and I will have to join together." After he says this he approaches the restrained Ventus, and merges with him. By doing this he successfully spawns the X-blade and becomes whole. However this is short lived due to his final defeat at the hands of Ventus in their shared mind, thus seemingly destroying Vanitas for good and ridding the worlds of the unversed.
Now while I understand where this point is coming from, please tell me what states, or even HINTS to this conclusion? First I'd like to address some common arguments I see for this topic.
1) The Unversed are nowhere to be found after Birth By Sleep. Not even mentioned.
Response: This is true, the Unversed aren't anywhere after Birth By Sleep. However, There are quite a few ways to tie up this loose end. First, remember that the Unversed are side effects of Ventus' and Vanitas' separation. They are Vanitas' negative emotions and thoughts (as revealed in the novel) that get released from his mind both at will and uncontrollably. Though its never stated, this was more than likely due to the fact that Vanitas is pure darkness with no light to keep his thoughts at bay. Meaning once he joined with Ventus and became whole again, the unversed more than likely could not escape or even sustain themselves. Though this is a maybe. A more likely answer comes from a secret boss in the game known as Vanitas' lingering spirit. Canonically, Aqua fights this boss while looking for Terra, mistaking the creature for her friend. Though she manages to defeat it before it fades back into the darkness. Vanitas Remnant was described in its character profile to be "A physical manifestation of what remained of Vanitas' powerful thoughts and feelings." Sound familiar? This boss is more than likely the combination of all the remaining Unversed. In other words Vanitas' thoughts and feelings. And thanks to Sora's heartless in re:coded we know that if something evolves enough, it can begin to look like the real thing.
2) Vanitas MUST have been destroyed, otherwise Ventus wouldn't have had to retreat to Sora's heart. We even see him perish after he loses the X-Blade!
Response: Actually that scene isn't quite as straight forward as one might think at first glance (though to be honest, I never really interpreted that scene as Vanitas' "death" to begin with). First off all, neither darkness nor a heart can be destroyed. As stated many MANY times by multiple individuals in the series, as long as there is light, darkness will always continue to exist no matter the circumstance. Meaning so long as Ventus' heart continues to exist, so will Vanitas. And all the heart is are the unique memories someone creates, and the feelings associated with those memories (as stated by Xemnas and Sora in Dream Drop Distance). Hence why Ansem the Wise instead attempted to convert the artificial Kingdom Hearts into data (though even this ended in failure) rather than destroy it all together.
Second, upon closer inspection of that scene, you begin to notice very odd details. Like for example, when Vanitas is falling after losing the X-Blade, a piece of him DOES manage to make contact with Ventus' heart before it changes back to normal. In fact the way they emphasis this shot makes it appear like its deliberate (almost as if that's what prompted it to go back to normal to begin with). While most would use this scene as proof for the other way around, I found it odd that Ventus' heart appeared this way, at all. Given the circumstances, his heart should of resembled the way it did back when he was on Destiny Islands in the beginning of the game. After all he would've no longer needed Sora's help. Oh, and while I'm on the subject, I'd like to point out that Ventus actually kept a majority of his heart. But his light was escaping his heart at a rapid rate, which is what Sora follows in order to find Ventus. The scene where Sora helps Ventus helps to visually support this too. Which might explain why Vanitas constantly feels so empty, but that's supposition. Anyway, I also went on to check to the trinity archives for Ventus in order to see if there were any solid confirmations of anything about Vanitas dying. To my surprise, it was incredibly vague about the ending of Ven's story.
Spoiler ShowOriginally Posted by Keyblade Graveyard
In a barren clearing, amidst countless Keyblades reduced to rust and ruin, stood Terra. Aqua appeared and questioned him about Master Eraqus's demise. Terra's face went dark as he admitted Xehanort had used him to strike their Master down. But Aqua told him hate and rage would only feed the dark fires within him; if he had come to fight for vengeance, then Xehanort had already won.
Ven walked up to them. He explained that Xehanort needed him and Vanitas to clash, thereby forging the "χ-blade" that would plunge all worlds into darkness. He asked his friends to put an end to him if it looked like that were going to happen.
Master Xehanort approached with Vanitas at his side and announced the χ-blade would be his.
Almost instantly, Terra had donned his armor and was charging toward Xehanort, but with a single twitch their foe bent the very earth; with a flick of the wrist the Keyblades embedded in the ground freed themselves and formed a violent vortex of metal that spiraled skyward. Try as he might, Terra could not break past the walls of stone and steel to reach Xehanort.
Ven crept up on Xehanort from behind, but when he moved to strike, he found himself caught; a moment later he had been turned to ice. Xehanort flashed a crooked smile as he changed his Keyblade into an orb of light which raced into the sky, parting thick clouds above and revealing Kingdom Hearts.
As Aqua cradled Ven in her arms, she was confronted by Master Xehanort's accomplice, Braig, who had com to destroy her and push Terra even further towards darkness. He was outmatched, however, and slipped away, leaving the task to Vanitas instead.
Frozen and unable to move, Ven watched as Vanitas struck Aqua down. Furiously, he broke free of the ice that held him, and in an intense clash, defeated Vanitas. But that was exactly what Xehanort had planned for him all along.
Darkness poured forth from Vanitas's body, spawning a swarm of Unversed which pinned Ven down. All of the Unversed had begun in this darkness. Helplessly, Ven watched as Vanitas crept closer. As the two fused, an enormous column of energy burst skyward. Ven was engulfed in light, and passed out.
* * *
When he regained his senses, he found himself inside his own heart. Vanitas was there too, and possessed the X-blade, but it was damaged; their union had not been finished. Vanitas sought to correct this; Ven sought to destroy the X-blade once and for all. They clashed again within Ven's heart, and in the end both the X-blade and Ven's Keyblade disintegrated. Ven smiled, knowing his friends were finally safe from Vanitas, and then slowly faded away.
* * *
Ven's body was drifting through the Lanes Between; Aqua was next to him, unconscious. Mickey found them and used the Star Shard to spirit them all to safety.
Notice that the text doesn't refer to Vanitas' fate, or even the state of Ven's heart, at all. Whats more interesting is the trinity archive for Aqua's final episode. For the purposes of this thread, I want you to focus on the bottom.
Spoiler ShowOriginally Posted by Final Episode
Guided by Ven, Aqua found herself returning to the beloved home the three of them had shared. But all that remained where ghastly ruins: a mass of twisted earth and buildings.
Aqua did as the late Master Eraqus had instructed her, activating a certain "trick" devised to protect their land from being used for evil purposes. As she did, a blaze of dazzling light transformed everything - the hall, the earth, and even the sky - into a new world that would draw all who visited into the depths of oblivion. She left Ven in one of the rooms, then departed.
The faint sound of Terra's voice led her to Radiant Garden, where she found a man who looked just like him. The man was struggling to dig through the morass of his own memory and remember who he was.
The darkness emanating from this stranger could belong to only one man: Master Xehanort. Aqua challenged him, determined to win back Terra's heart. Xehanort lost the fiht and began to writhe; Terra's heart was fighting back from the inside.
In a desperate move to rid himelf of Terra once and for all, Xehanort turned his own Keyblade on himself, and began to sink into a pool of darkness that spilled forth.
Aqua dove into the darkness to pull her friend out, but soon realized only one of them would be able to return. She chose to sacrifice herself and sent Terra back to the realm of light. Down, down, down... Aqua's last thoughts before vanishing from sight were of Ven, and who would cae for him once she was gone.
* * *
Night had fallen on Destiny Islands. Sora was gazing up at the stars when suddenly, grief overcame him. But why, when he had no reason to be sad? Riku suggested someone else out there was hurting and needed Sora to listen. So Sora closed his eyes and tried.
* * *
Meanwhile, in Radiant Garden, Braig led Ansem the Wise to a man who had collapsed in the square. Aqua's armor and Keyblade lay on the ground nearby. Ansem asked the man his name. Delirious, the man replied:
"Xehanort."
* * *
Elsewhere, Aqua was trudging through endless darkness. Sinister monsters surrounded her, and she could no longer fight the urge to bring her struggle to a close. But as she lowered her Keyblade in resignation, light came pouring into the darkness. It shifted and changed, becoming two Keyblades: Terra's, and Ven's. In a flash, they had destroyed the monsters around her. Aqua realized her friends had found a way to reach her - and in the deepest darkness, she had found light.
* * *
Ven was drifting through his own darkness when he heard a familiar voice. Exhausted from the long journey, Ven's heart decided he belonged with the voice's heart. He was going home.
I'm sure the evidence speaks for it self, but I would like to clarify something. In the scene where Ventus meets a young Sora for the second time, he was apparently floating in his own darkness. Meaning Ventus' darkness still exist, and by extension Vanitas. Though I personally wouldn't consider him(Vanitas) present in this scene, even though he technically is. You see the fact that the darkness Ventus was floating in was his own darkness, means Vanitas ceased to exist as an independent faction. In other words he just wasn't darkness that was sentient anymore. Or at least that's what it seems to be implying. On that note there's one more thing I'd like to point out. When I say "ceased to exist", I mean ceased to exist in the Realm of Light (that's what the term means when its used in the series). It doesn't mean there's no trace left of him, just that he didn't PHYSICALLY exist anymore. Similar to Roxas at the end of Kingdom Hearts 2 (this was actually stated in his character profile for Dream Drop Distance). If you want to get real technical, Vanitas technically ceased to exist when he merged with Ventus. So with all things considered, lets discuss some possible theories on that Ventus final boss ending scene and make some sense out of this. Based on the fact that Ventus' dive to heart went back to normal and not into a fractured state, its possible that Vanitas could've of simply relinquished control of their heart back to Ventus. That would explain how Vanitas was technically present when Ven met Sora at the end of Birth By Sleep, and why Ventus' heart wasn't visibly fractured at the end of their battle. But this poses a question, if Ventus' heart wasn't fractured then why flee his body? Well I never said his heart WASN'T fractured, just no where near the extent it was before. A fracture isn't necessarily a full breakage of something, technically it can be something as small as a crack. It's also possible that his heart was simply exhausted to a severe level. Hence the need to "sleep." Though this answer is sadly just supposition. There's simply no real way to get a definitive answer on this specific question, at least not one that I know of. But assuming this is the case, this poses ANOTHER question. If Ventus' whole heart left his body, then why didn't his body fade and possibly become a nobody in the Realm Between? Well its possible that its because Ventus' soul was still in his heart. We know thanks to a interview with Tetsuya Nomura (forgive me I can't find the specific one at the moment), that it is possible for hearts to carry souls out of their body. This is evident when Master Xehanort possesses Terra. So its possible this is the reason Ventus' body is comatose.
As for Vanitas' status as a Seeker of Darkness in Kingdom Hearts 3, there are a couple of theories I have in mind.
1) He could be inside of Ventus', and by extension Sora's, heart. Giving some meaning to Young Xehanort's famous line in La Cité des Cloches. Though I'm unsure how Xehanort would even plan to deal with this.
2) Young Xehanort time traveled to bring him back for the KH3 finale. Though this is questionable because Tetsuya Nomura stated in an interview that unlike Ansem and Xemnas, Vanitas doesn't have a body at this time. Rather, what we're seeing in that Young Xehanort scene is Ventus' heart "reacting." This is strange because going off the Kingdom Hearts 3 trailer, Vanitas HAS to be one the 13. What's even more confusing is we saw all the Seekers of Darkness present in the Room Where Nothing Gathers at the end of DDD. ALL OF THEM (bar the thirteenth) were in that room. Meaning they either somehow got Vanitas a body, or they have him as a possible back up. I mean, there IS a perfectly good body sitting unguarded in Castle Oblivion after all. All Xehanort would need to do is find it. That's IF he has Vanitas' heart somehow.
But enough with the theories, lets wrap this up!!
So in summary, I just can't believe that Vanitas perished at the end of BBS. And even if he somehow DOES, it won't have been because of this fight. Though I'm very interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on this subject now that I've pretty much stated my concerns. I've also given you my personal thoughts on his inevitable status as one of the thirteen Seekers of Darkness, so feel free to leave your thoughts on that too. I look forward to seeing THAT user reply!
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