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Time Travel is Confusing..



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OkaruAudo

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This is super confusing now. When Xehanort introduces his nefarious plot, Sora is asleep and Riku is in the real world right? Well how come Riku could use his dream eaters and Sora had the same clothes? If they were in the real world it would be different. Or were they not out of the RoS yet?

Also, Mickey said Sora's heart was asleep and then Yen Sid said it is a different affliction. And then proceeded to tell Riku to wake his sleeping heart.
 

Audo

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This is super confusing now. When Xehanort introduces his nefarious plot, Sora is asleep and Riku is in the real world right? Well how come Riku could use his dream eaters and Sora had the same clothes? If they were in the real world it would be different. Or were they not out of the RoS yet?
As Riku says when he approaches the castle, he retained his Dream Eater powers, and partners in the Real World because Sora's heart was still sleeping. Sora and Riku kept the same clothes/forms because their changes were due to Yen Sid's magic and they wouldn't revert to their normal forms until they returned to the Mysterious Tower.

Also, Mickey said Sora's heart was asleep and then Yen Sid said it is a different affliction. And then proceeded to tell Riku to wake his sleeping heart.
Mickey was comparing Sora's sleeping heart to Ventus' sleeping heart, and Yen Sid was clarifying that Sora and Ventus' afflictions were not the same (as in, they were considered "sleeping" in different ways).
 

BlackOsprey

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Even in the first scene, Xehanort ends it saying things implying he is knowledgeable about it (You cannot control what you are not aware of. This wakeless sleep will be your prison. -- like clearly he knew to some extent what was happening).
Still can't ignore that the very first thing that he says is "How did you get here?" Obviously, the Norts were aware that this was a separate reality created by a dream (I guess they must've been briefed on the mechanics of the dream realm before "hijacking the slumber party"), but they weren't expecting Riku to show up, nor did they know how he did. I mean, if I were watching the inside of an incinerator and a person just appeared inside out of nowhere, I could very easily tell them what would happen to them if they stuck around (get burnt to a crisp), but I sure as hell wouldn't know how or why they got in there in the first place.

But yeah, you're right in that this could be read several ways. Nitpicking's still kinda entertaining though. :D

Also, Mickey said Sora's heart was asleep and then Yen Sid said it is a different affliction. And then proceeded to tell Riku to wake his sleeping heart.
The main difference here is that Ven's heart is sleeping because it received catastrophic damage and proceeded to leave the body. Sora's heart is still in his body, just under very heavy darkness sedation.
 
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Audo

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Still can't ignore that the very first thing that he says is "How did you get here?" Obviously, the Norts were aware that this was a separate reality created by a dream (I guess they must've been briefed on the mechanics of the dream realm before "hijacking the slumber party"), but they weren't expecting Riku to show up, nor did they know how he did. I mean, if I were watching the inside of an incinerator and a person just appeared inside out of nowhere, I could very easily tell them what would happen to them if they stuck around (get burnt to a crisp), but I sure as hell wouldn't know how or why they got in there in the first place.
Well his very next sentence is "by choice or chance?" meaning, maybe he wasn't surprised Riku was there in general, but he was wondering if Riku did it intentionally, or by chance. Again, we're still comparing the knowledge of a character at the beginning of the story with the end. People can learn things, lol.

In the Japanese (at least based on the translation of a trailer) Xehanort's wording doesn't imply that he is confused about what is happening, but is asking if Riku is aware of what is happening -- "Why are you here? You don't realize, do you? Then there's nothing you can do. You'll drift between waking and sleep for good."
 

BlackOsprey

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Well his very next sentence is "by choice or chance?" meaning, maybe he wasn't surprised Riku was there in general, but he was wondering if Riku did it intentionally, or by chance. Again, we're still comparing the knowledge of a character at the beginning of the story with the end. People can learn things, lol.

In the Japanese (at least based on the translation of a trailer) Xehanort's wording doesn't imply that he is confused about what is happening, but is asking if Riku is aware of what is happening -- "Why are you here? You don't realize, do you?"
Ah, got me there. This is what happens when I trust my faulty memory, ha.
 

OkaruAudo

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This game's ending... Is truly gorgeous. Aren't they all? But I don't know, this one feels especially beautiful. And then Sanctuary plays. Sheesh man. Feels.

Anyhow, one thing I want to know is, what the hell was the Ventus nightmare? What was that, what was it doing?
 

Audo

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This game's ending... Is truly gorgeous. Aren't they all? But I don't know, this one feels especially beautiful. And then Sanctuary plays. Sheesh man. Feels.
It definitely has an interesting ending. Feels different from other titles.
(all those sora/riku hugs tho)

Anyhow, one thing I want to know is, what the hell was the Ventus nightmare? What was that, what was it doing?
Basically Ventus gave Sora his armour to try and protect him from the darkness/nightmare. The darkness then seeped into the armour, controlling it, which is why the armour fights you.
 

OkaruAudo

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Okay thanks! And I don't know why, I like this game's dialogue a lot more than others'.

Also, I didn't unlock the secret message from the credits ;w; I didn't know I was supposed to hit the gold letters at first.
 

OkaruAudo

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I unlocked it. I did with every game other than Re: Coded. Once I beat it I wanted to be done with the game.

Also, why did Sora leave. He said he had other business? And what was with all those dream eaters?
 

Audo

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I unlocked it.
Did you? I was pretty sure you needed to have unlocked the secret message to get the secret ending.

(The scene with Sora and the DEs is not the secret ending, just to clarify)


I did with every game other than Re: Coded. Once I beat it I wanted to be done with the game.

Also, why did Sora leave. He said he had other business? And what was with all those dream eaters?
His business was saying goodbye to the Dream Eater friends he had met throughout his journey. Since he had fallen asleep he wasn't able to give them a proper thank you and farewell.
 

OkaruAudo

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Oh okay! But no, I saw the secret ending. You don't need the letters. Just 5 trophies and the questions from those within Sora's heart answered.

That whole encounter with Ansem The Wise was cool, but if he digitised himself along with his research and put himself inside Sora, is he no longer in the RoD??

Also, what happens if Xehanort starts the keyblade war again? He gets the key and plunges the world into darkness?
 

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Audo I'm too exhausted to keep this going but I'll leave two things that needs addressing for me to have some peace of mind with your reading.

Spoiler Spoiler Show


That whole encounter with Ansem The Wise was cool, but if he digitised himself along with his research and put himself inside Sora, is he no longer in the RoD??

Also, what happens if Xehanort starts the keyblade war again? He gets the key and plunges the world into darkness?
Nah he's a digital copy like Data Sora in Coded was. As for what happens it's one of two things either a new world is born with a new balance of light and darkness....or the entire world is destroyed. Xehanort is is a gambling man and is willing to risk the destruction of everything to see that new world.
 

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That whole encounter with Ansem The Wise was cool, but if he digitised himself along with his research and put himself inside Sora, is he no longer in the RoD??
He basically is saying he made a digital version of himself in Sora (and he did this during KH2), so, no, the real Ansem is still in the RoD.

Also, what happens if Xehanort starts the keyblade war again? He gets the key and plunges the world into darkness?
Essentially, yeah. He plans on destroying the world and then remaking it again in his own image with a balance of light and dark.

Audo I'm too exhausted to keep this going but I'll leave two things that needs addressing for me to have some peace of mind with your reading.
Well I mean you can just leave it there. You are free to think I'm totally off-base and incorrect and off my rocker and stupid. It's fine lol

(also, you don't have to keep putting things in a spoiler box. it just makes it difficult to read :/ this is a forum, you're allowed long posts)

take care of Ansem and there is nothing holding him there.
Sure, but theoretically, if it was just Ansem/Riku's dark abyss, why would that make Riku enter the Real World? Wouldn't it just return him back to Sora's Dream if this whole thing was just the darkness of Riku?

He never specificities it's the darkness of Sora's nightmare
Yeah he does.

Riku: No. This is a...
Ansem: Dream of a dream. A twofold nightmare. This whole journey, you have been inside Sora's dreams. And now darkness within darkness awaits you.
(Riku feels his foot fall and looks down to see a pool of darkness surrounding him)
Riku: What?
(He sinks in, unable to pull his legs up)
Riku: No. I can't get loose!
(He cries out, grasping at anything to help him, but he falls into darkness.)

He explicitly says that Sora's nightmare is persisting and that since Riku is in a dream of a dream he is dealing with a twofold nightmare or "darkness within darkness". As soon as he makes this connection, Riku is pulled into the darkness.

I'm specifically only talking about the abyss that Ansem pulls him into. Ansem is obviously still talking about how Riku should unleash his own darkness to try and save Sora. But to break free of the abyss, he consumes the nightmare.

"Ansem you're part of my heart now part of the light!""Ansem become a part of my heart now - part of the light!"
I definitely will admit this is one part that is difficult to reconcile. But I can also see it as being more metaphoric than literal. We don't even really see anything that suggests Ansem is consumed and turned to light when he's defeated after all. He just ends up fading away. I think if they were really going to drive this home as being a literal thing they'd show it as such more visually (such as Ansem turning to light, or Riku absorbing Ansem in such a way, etc). Instead he just disappears. But again, I admit it's rocky.

These are the two biggest holes in what you said and actually it's not the same outcome either. If it's time traveling Ansem Riku beat then that solves none of his problems and we never have the big moment Nomura said we have for Riku. You know the whole crux of Riku's story in DDD as Nomura said is "up until this point the story has been about Riku learning to lock the power away and in this tale it's about Riku learning to make that power his own". That never happens if it's time travel Ansem that's why I'm so adamantly against that reading.
I don't know why you think it changes anything. Riku still ultimately decides to use his own darkness for good in either reading. Riku is only able to hypothetically consume the nightmare of Sora and turn it to light through the use of his power. So on a Riku level it's the same outcome. He decides to use his own power instead of locking it away. Ansem is defeated. Riku is triumphant. The only salient difference is the identity of this Ansem and what that means for your reading. For people who see this as a time traveling Ansem, then the "Ansem" that had previous terrorized Riku in CoM/KH2 was destroyed by the heart machine. For the people who see it as that same Ansem, then he is at once defeated.

But again, it's okay to think I'm totally wrong. I'm just trying to feel out my own understanding anyway and I haven't fully committed to either reading.
 
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Sephiroth0812

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It definitely has an interesting ending. Feels different from other titles.
(all those sora/riku hugs tho)


Basically Ventus gave Sora his armour to try and protect him from the darkness/nightmare. The darkness then seeped into the armour, controlling it, which is why the armour fights you.

I'll admit that while it lacked the "epicness" of Blank Points somewhat the whole long cutscene with Riku inside Sora's heart in the fascimile of Destiny Islands with answering the questions and then the chat/monologue with the Data-Ansem the Wise gave some similar feels to Blank Points, mainly because it is a whole beacon of hope that is lit there like in the former but also because Riku's whole current character arc comes full circle. Not only has he proven to be trustworthy once and for all despite all the shit done in KH 1 and is entrusted with Ansem's data for safekeeping, Ansem also already asked Riku for his name in the past and back then he answered differently. This time however he can confidently use his real name, hopefully closing the "redemption"-arc for good now.

At the core it worked as intended I would say as Sora himself was safe from the Nightmare with it "only" possessing the armor instead. One may speculate as to why Ventus didn't try to fight and defeat the Nightmare himself (possibly because his heart is still weakened?), but he certainly did buy time and ensured that there still was a Sora to save for Riku.
It's somewhat funny/ironic that basically Riku and Ventus worked together without actually knowing of each other.

He basically is saying he made a digital version of himself in Sora (and he did this during KH2), so, no, the real Ansem is still in the RoD.


Essentially, yeah. He plans on destroying the world and then remaking it again in his own image with a balance of light and dark.


Well I mean you can just leave it there. You are free to think I'm totally off-base and incorrect and off my rocker and stupid. It's fine lol

Sure, but theoretically, if it was just Ansem/Riku's dark abyss, why would that make Riku enter the Real World? Wouldn't it just return him back to Sora's Dream if this whole thing was just the darkness of Riku?

Yeah he does.

Riku: No. This is a...
Ansem: Dream of a dream. A twofold nightmare. This whole journey, you have been inside Sora's dreams. And now darkness within darkness awaits you.
(Riku feels his foot fall and looks down to see a pool of darkness surrounding him)
Riku: What?
(He sinks in, unable to pull his legs up)
Riku: No. I can't get loose!
(He cries out, grasping at anything to help him, but he falls into darkness.)

He explicitly says that Sora's nightmare is persisting and that since Riku is in a dream of a dream he is dealing with a twofold nightmare or "darkness within darkness". As soon as he makes this connection, Riku is pulled into the darkness.

I'm specifically only talking about the abyss that Ansem pulls him into. Ansem is obviously still talking about how Riku should unleash his own darkness to try and save Sora. But to break free of the abyss, he consumes the nightmare.


I definitely will admit this is one part that is difficult to reconcile. But I can also see it as being more metaphoric than literal. We don't even really see anything that suggests Ansem is consumed and turned to light when he's defeated after all. He just ends up fading away. I think if they were really going to drive this home as being a literal thing they'd show it as such more visually (such as Ansem turning to light, or Riku absorbing Ansem in such a way, etc). Instead he just disappears. But again, I admit it's rocky.


I don't know why you think it changes anything. Riku still ultimately decides to use his own darkness for good in either reading. Riku is only able to hypothetically consume the nightmare of Sora and turn it to light through the use of his power. So on a Riku level it's the same outcome. He decides to use his own power instead of locking it away. Ansem is defeated. Riku is triumphant. The only salient difference is the identity of this Ansem and what that means for your reading. For people who see this as a time traveling Ansem, then the "Ansem" that had previous terrorized Riku in CoM/KH2 was destroyed by the heart machine. For the people who see it as that same Ansem, then he is at once defeated.

But again, it's okay to think I'm totally wrong. I'm just trying to feel out my own understanding anyway and I haven't fully committed to either reading.

*snickers* I guess one could also say that Ansem uploaded a "backup" of himself and his research data into Sora's heart.

At least that is what he claims he wants, lol, his actions so far do not present any form of "balanced" view at all.

After reading all the recent posts here (jeez, that was some catching up to do), I have to admit that both views have their merits and could very well be true as there exist hints towards both.
When reading this quote
Riku said:
Even after locking you away, here you are, haunting me again.
I can also easily see why one might come to the conclusion that the DDD-Ansem Riku fights is the same one as CoM-Ansem.
Independent of that though I still think that the "Shadow of Ansem" introduced in CoM that continued to plague Riku throughout Days and KH 2 can be a very literal example of what exactly a "nort-seed" is and how Xehanort's whole possession shtick works.
Personally I prefer the interpretation that the "Shadow of Ansem" that was inside Riku was truly wiped out by the explosion of the KH encoder in KH 2, as this would additionally serve as an example that it is possible to get rid of a Xehanort-seed and thus may have implications for the later saving of Terra and (possibly) even Isa.

When thinking more about it, it would also be necessary to have a way to permanently remove Xehanort seeds. Otherwise it would be impossible to defeat Xehanort for good since as long as he has even one seed remaining, he could theoretically resurface eventually.
 

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When thinking more about it, it would also be necessary to have a way to permanently remove Xehanort seeds. Otherwise it would be impossible to defeat Xehanort for good since as long as he has even one seed remaining, he could theoretically resurface eventually.
Reading this is giving me flashbacks from the end of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. I swear to god, if we have to kill off any of the protagonists because their hearts were SOMEhow connected to Xehanort's...
 

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Reading this is giving me flashbacks from the end of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. I swear to god, if we have to kill off any of the protagonists because their hearts were SOMEhow connected to Xehanort's...

*cough* I barely even dare to write it but I, too, don't hope it'll go around the lines of Sora (or anyone else) dies but then doesn't
But tbh, I don't think they would (and I hope they won't) copy THAT.
 
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